NationStates Jolt Archive

This thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=452716) basically got me thinking about the fact that I seem not only to turn into an agnostic, but also rather uneasy around some Christians. Some even manage to make me downright aggressive... that's normally extremely hard to achieve, the only person who regularly succeeded in making me aggressive before was my father.

I grew up as a Catholic, in a Catholic environment, went to a Catholic (Jesuit) school... I have questioned Christian faith for as long as I can remember, and I particularly liked my school because we were encouraged to do so. jesuits are generally rather focused on knowledge and meditation, on introspection and a conscious acceptance of faith rather than blind belief. While I disagreed with the Catholic church in several points, I never felt the slightest urge to renounce it, and I guess I would still defend some of its teachings today.

And yet, I no longer would call myself a Christian. Which in itself isn't a problem... but I am quite surprised at the fact that some people (especially here, I have to admit that I never really met American Christians before) make me feel like so... well... aggressively arrogant?

And yet, I no longer would call myself a Christian. Which in itself isn't a problem... but I am quite surprised at the fact that some people (especially here, I have to admit that I never really met American Christians before) make me feel like so... well... aggressively arrogant?

You haven't met a rabid christian until you've met a rabid American christian.

*shudder*

It isn't really Christianity you need to worry about. It's American Christians corrupting and pervading the religion.

It isn't really Christianity you need to worry about. It's American Christians corrupting and pervading the religion.

Republichristians! :D

It isn't really Christianity you need to worry about. It's American Christians corrupting and pervading the religion.

I suspected something like that, I just hoped I was wrong. I never ever before had any problem around religious people, on the contrary. I still have close frineds in the convent that basically ran my school. And yet...

I suspected something like that, I just hoped I was wrong. I never ever before had any problem around religious people, on the contrary. I still have close frineds in the convent that basically ran my school. And yet...

Be happy you arent older.the idea of going to school with the nuns beatin lumps out of you for not saying your rosarys with enough conviction scares the be-jaysus out of me.

Thank god the nuns left my school,and only a few years before i started there.twas a close shave.

<snip, snip, snip>
be-jaysus
<blah, blah, blah
It is pronounced JEIGH-zus, not Jay-soos you heathen!

part of your uneasyness is due to the fact that we Christians have cooties :)

okay that is my joke answer..... I have a real answer backed up by scripture and everything as to why non-Christians are uncomfortable around Christians, but it might make you even more uncomfortable if I whipped out a bunch of Bible verses and so to treat others like I would want to be treated (and in this case it would be not to intentionally be made uncomfortable) I will refrain from answering anything but my joke answer. ;)


or should I have even posted at all?:confused:

It is pronounced JEIGH-zus, not Jay-soos you heathen!

im not a heathen,im a heretic.

Be happy you arent older.the idea of going to school with the nuns beatin lumps out of you for not saying your rosarys with enough conviction scares the be-jaysus out of me.

Thank god the nuns left my school,and only a few years before i started there.twas a close shave.

I'm not 60 yet ;) And I went to school in Germany, corporal punishment was abolished even before I was born.
And, personally, I can only say the best about my school. The nuns were very much involved with every student, taking care that none was left behind (and I was very close to being left behind an number of times) I appreciated the way they always were open for dialog and provided only teaching and help that went beyond the official curriculum.

You probably just have the problem that I do, namely that you are afraid of seriously offending someone over something stupid. There are a lot of rules, and if you aren't well versed it is rather easy to get stoned for making such common mistakes as telling a Gay Jesus joke or using the wrong knife when you sacrifice the goat.

part of your uneasyness is due to the fact that we Christians have cooties :)

okay that is my joke answer..... I have a real answer backed up by scripture and everything as to why non-Christians are uncomfortable around Christians, but it might make you even more uncomfortable if I whipped out a bunch of Bible verses and so to treat others like I would want to be treated (and in this case it would be not to intentionally be made uncomfortable) I will refrain from answering anything but my joke answer. ;)


or should I have even posted at all?:confused:

Not true... I never met a Christian with cooties in my life :p
But you did pique my curiosity about an answer in the scriptures on why I suddenly begin to feel uneasy around some of you?

I'm not 60 yet ;) And I went to school in Germany, corporal punishment was abolished even before I was born.
And, personally, I can only say the best about my school. The nuns were very much involved with every student, taking care that none was left behind (and I was very close to being left behind an number of times) I appreciated the way they always were open for dialog and provided only teaching and help that went beyond the official curriculum.

not quite yet,any day now :p .i guess you got the good nuns,and the vatican sent all the scary nuns to ireland,to scare away from drinking and other ungodly things.like potatoes.

You probably just have the problem that I do, namely that you are afraid of seriously offending someone over something stupid. There are a lot of rules, and if you aren't well versed it is rather easy to get stoned for making such common mistakes as telling a Gay Jesus joke or using the wrong knife when you sacrifice the goat.

*lol See, that's where good Catholic education comes in handy. You don't use a knife to sacrifice the goat, you chop its head of in a messy way with an axe...

Not true... I never met a Christian with cooties in my life :p
But you did pique my curiosity about an answer in the scriptures on why I suddenly begin to feel uneasy around some of you? I believe the scriptural answer is more about people who hate Christians and persecute them… Nero etc. I don't think you fit into that category…?

Also, WTF are cooties?

not quite yet,any day now :p .i guess you got the good nuns,and the vatican sent all the scary nuns to ireland,to scare away from drinking and other ungodly things.like potatoes.

*lol
Possibly. Our nuns did drink themselves... ;)

I believe the scriptural answer is more about people who hate Christians and persecute them… Nero etc. I don't think you fit into that category…?

Also, WTF are cooties?

I've no reason to hate them...
Google told me that cooties are lice.

*lol See, that's where good Catholic education comes in handy. You don't use a knife to sacrifice the goat, you chop its head of in a messy way with an axe...
Ah, that is why I've never been able to get it done right. Makes sense, I suppose.

I believe the scriptural answer is more about people who hate Christians and persecute them… Nero etc. I don't think you fit into that category…?

Also, WTF are cooties?
that is actually different scripture. I would never use that on Cabra, it wouldn't be nice or true.


cooties are a made up disease among small children (my 4 year old claims boys have them)

I've no reason to hate them... Maybe you just come across the wrong type. Like the ones who practise the sin of Sodom by saying that asylum seekers should be sent back - sorry, going off on tangent.
Google told me that cooties are lice. Call a spade a spade, what.

I wouldn't use that one on Cabra, it wouldn't be nice or true. I know. That's why I said it didn't apply.

*lol
Possibly. Our nuns did drink themselves... ;)

damned vatican giving the feckin germans all the good nuns!
why couldnt we get the fun lovin party nuns?!

damned vatican giving the feckin germans all the good nuns!
why couldnt we get the fun lovin party nuns?!

We bribed the pope :p

You haven't met a rabid christian until you've met a rabid American christian.

*shudder*
"The more I rant about Jesus, the less I have to act like him!"

"I have a direct line to God!"

This thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=452716) basically got me thinking about the fact that I seem not only to turn into an agnostic, but also rather uneasy around some Christians. Some even manage to make me downright aggressive... that's normally extremely hard to achieve, the only person who regularly succeeded in making me aggressive before was my father.
How? Dublin is hardly an intensely Catholic place unless you spend all your time hanging around with old people.

"I have a direct line to God!" "Yeah… it's called being dead." Maybe good threat? If you're into threats, that is… :P


How? Dublin is hardly an intensely Catholic place unless you spend all your time hanging around with old people. Notice how "national" religions now seem to be only frequented by the old. Catholicism in Ireland is like the CoE in England.

Cooties in the sense of "an intangible profusion of vileness emanating from an especially loathsome individual" is probably peculiar to this country. (America)

sometimes I forget that we have cultural differences.


Cabra- did you really want those scriptures or would you rather be left alone?

"Yeah… it's called being dead." Maybe good threat? If you're into threats, that is… :P
I find that "I've also got a direct line to God, and he's telling me to go for my shotgun" works better.
Notice how "national" religions now seem to be only frequented by the old. Catholicism in Ireland is like the CoE in England.
The Department of Redundancy Reduction Department needs to give you a goodd working over.

I'm always afraid that I'm going to say something offensive to a christian (irl) 'cause really the last thing I feel necessary is to open that whole can of worms. That's why I'm going to be founding an atheist and agnostic club next year at school, so all us non-believers can get together and meet without fearing causing offense. :)

It isn't just the American Republicans trying to co-opt God, either: as far as I can tell the Church Of England is at heart the Conservative Party with a hymn book...

"Yeah… it's called being dead." Maybe good threat? If you're into threats, that is… :P
I was referring to the American conservative Christians' certainty that their interpretation of the Bible (which, oddly enough, always seems to serve the agenda of conservative capitalism) is the correct one and that it should be law.

Notice how "national" religions now seem to be only frequented by the old. Catholicism in Ireland is like the CoE in England.
There are plenty of young Catholics here; they just tend not to be as vocal about it as the old. As a group Irish people are nowhere near as atheistic as the British.

It isn't just the American Republicans trying to co-opt God, either: as far as I can tell the Church Of England is at heart the Conservative Party with a hymn book...
I don't get any such impression at all. If they would fit into any major UK party it would be the Lib Dems. The CoE opposes the Iraq war and are non-homophobic.

That's why I'm going to be founding an atheist and agnostic club next year at school, so all us non-believers can get together and meet without fearing causing offense. :)
What on earth would you talk about?

What on earth would you talk about?
They'd talk about how God didn't exist, and debate the ways that God didn't exist and the various fforms of the gods that don't exist. Then they would devote much consideration to which of the nonexistent laws should have a higher priority when not following any of them.

You haven't met a rabid christian until you've met a rabid American christian.

*shudder*
ROFLMAO! Tsk! :D

What on earth would you talk about?

We've got an atheist's club on our campus.. I showed up to their first meeting (free food).. it was mostly anti-Bush (this was immediately before his re-election) and anti-GOP stuff, about how Christians would destroy the country if they could, etc. I basically sat there and poked fun at their more outrageous and/or conspiratorial claims, enjoyed the free chow, and went home..

Bush had been re-elected by the time they met again, and had gotten about 35% of the atheist/agnostic vote.. leading me to ask something like "given that 1/3 of atheists voted for Bush, shouldn't we present some diversity of opinions, rather than a steady stream of Noam Chomsky documentaries?" The looks I got were priceless..

"College Atheists: Saving our Rights from the Religious Right" was the motto on their posters.. needless to say, they were none too pleased to learn that a good chunk of their ranks were Bushies, and that a good number of evangelical Christians voted for Kerry... but then, their cries of "where's the empirical evidence" (when disputing religious thought), never extended to political events that didn't support their ideology.. :p

I'm always afraid that I'm going to say something offensive to a christian (irl) 'cause really the last thing I feel necessary is to open that whole can of worms. That's why I'm going to be founding an atheist and agnostic club next year at school, so all us non-believers can get together and meet without fearing causing offense. :)

Any reasonable person won't get offened by an honest mistake. That said many people aren't reasonable. I said something that offended one of my agnostic friends once. Didn't mean anything by it and it really wasn't a big deal. People just are really touchy about the subject, especially if they aren't certain what they believe.

Good luck with the club. Sounds like a great idea. But be careful, we had such a club at my undergraduate school. It eventually became a closeminded Christian bashing club which got pretty hateful (not saying most atheist clubs are like that).

What on earth would you talk about?

Ah, I think that's how the atheist club that I knew became a Christian bashing club. They had nothing to talk about except that they weren't Christian and sort of progressed from there.

This thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=452716) basically got me thinking about the fact that I seem not only to turn into an agnostic, but also rather uneasy around some Christians. Some even manage to make me downright aggressive... that's normally extremely hard to achieve, the only person who regularly succeeded in making me aggressive before was my father.
My take on it, I wonder why I would pick Christianity over any other religion. Especially when you note that many other faiths have a considerably more tolerant approach to mankind as a whole, even if they do denounce amorality. And then Christians claim to have the universal truth, which makes potentially much less sense, causes you much more hassle and brings less good to those around you than other, apparently Invalid "truths". And, what's more, their entire philosophy depends on making everyone else arrive at this somewhat fallible conclusion, since if they don't, your conclusion claims that they will suffer for failing to take the exact beliefs that you do.

The problem is not with Christians themselves, but in their tendency to claim sole correctness in the matter of Theology, which is a subjective field. You'll find this with pretty much any religious field, particularly also in Atheism. It's applying discrete operations onto a continuous scale. And it doesn't work.

My take on it, I wonder why I would pick Christianity over any other religion. Especially when you note that many other faiths have a considerably more tolerant approach to mankind as a whole, even if they do denounce amorality. And then Christians claim to have the universal truth, which makes potentially much less sense, causes you much more hassle and brings less good to those around you than other, apparently Invalid "truths". And, what's more, their entire philosophy depends on making everyone else arrive at this somewhat fallible conclusion, since if they don't, your conclusion claims that they will suffer for failing to take the exact beliefs that you do.

The problem is not with Christians themselves, but in their tendency to claim sole correctness in the matter of Theology, which is a subjective field. You'll find this with pretty much any religious field, particularly also in Atheism. It's applying discrete operations onto a continuous scale. And it doesn't work.


Please remember that I said "some Christians", not Christians on the whole. I normally get along famously with all the Christians I met in Europe so far, but truth be told, the American variety is somehow scary...
They tend to come across as even more extremist than Jehova's Witnesses over here.

This thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=452716) basically got me thinking about the fact that I seem not only to turn into an agnostic, but also rather uneasy around some Christians. Some even manage to make me downright aggressive... that's normally extremely hard to achieve, the only person who regularly succeeded in making me aggressive before was my father.

I grew up as a Catholic, in a Catholic environment, went to a Catholic (Jesuit) school... I have questioned Christian faith for as long as I can remember, and I particularly liked my school because we were encouraged to do so. jesuits are generally rather focused on knowledge and meditation, on introspection and a conscious acceptance of faith rather than blind belief. While I disagreed with the Catholic church in several points, I never felt the slightest urge to renounce it, and I guess I would still defend some of its teachings today.

And yet, I no longer would call myself a Christian. Which in itself isn't a problem... but I am quite surprised at the fact that some people (especially here, I have to admit that I never really met American Christians before) make me feel like so... well... aggressively arrogant?


God you mirror me

I kid you not its freeky

personaly I always attributed my agressaveness to my being molested by my priest (and the church reaction to it) but you seem to have about the same upbringing (generaly) as me minus that and sound a godawfull (sorry no pun intended) like me

... I dont know

God you mirror me

I kid you not its freeky

personaly I always attributed my agressaveness to my being molested by my priest (and the church reaction to it) but you seem to have about the same upbringing (generaly) as me minus that and sound a godawfull (sorry no pun intended) like me

... I dont know

Well, in my case, the molesting was done by my father... but the church (in form of my school) went to some very great length to help me cope with it eventually.
As I said, I don't have a problem with normal Christians of any denomination. But some people just seem too blind and eager, they make me feel incredibly uneasy, and sometimes aggressive.

Hmmm.... I went to 12 years worth of Catholic School in America and am now firmly agnostic. Perhaps it was the constant badgering, the feeling that pretty much if you trip over a bush you're going to hell.

I personally wanted to believe that, if a person does good in life, they will get rewarded in afterlife whether or not they are of a particular religion. I am also uneasy with the thought that an infant suffers in the afterworld if he/she dies before getting baptised. Beyond that I am very stubborn and hate being pushed into something I am uncertain about. After a while it all just felt extremely wrong.

Since then I have been studying different forms of faith as I come across them, but I have to admit that deep down my Catholic education rears it's head when I am seeking moral answers in a crisis. At times, I feel truly brainwashed.:(

How? Dublin is hardly an intensely Catholic place unless you spend all your time hanging around with old people.

I grew up in Germany...

Interesting.

I too, feel increasingly uncorfortable around some christians.
Its more than my dislike for thier religion, its the attitude they generally give off.
Many of them, when discovering your religious beliefs ( or lack thereof entirely), feel that I must have simply not been offered what they consider "salvation".
As if they are the first christian Ive ever come across?

The city where I live, has more churches per capita, than anywhere else in the world.
So, to find an athiest, such as myself, who openly has a distaste for religion, is a bit of a rare thing.

Many Christians I run into, simply dont care, and dont let my beliefs get in the way of a social interaction. Many, but not all.
An equal number of them often gape stupidly, as if Ive never heard of Jesus, and cant believe I dont believe.

Its not the christian that I hate, its the sheep-like mentality that makes too many of them follow along with anything their pastor/preist/minister tells them to.
Refusal to think for themselves, when speaking about thier own faiths, and how it affects other people.
Thinking that whatever "Jesus" wants, must be good for the entire nation, and indeed, the world, is what pisses me off more than anything.

So, ergo, I tend to feel uneasy around them.
Maybe its becuase some of them can be pretentious, or condescending, or maybe its becuase when deep conversation develops, it turns to spirituality, and we have nothing in common...

I dunno.

Its not the christian that I hate, its the sheep-like mentality that makes too many of them follow along with anything their pastor/preist/minister tells them to.
Refusal to think for themselves, when speaking about thier own faiths, and how it affects other people.
Thinking that whatever "Jesus" wants, must be good for the entire nation, and indeed, the world, is what pisses me off more than anything.
those kinds of "Christians" annoy me too, they make the rest of us look bad, and I can't help but wonder why it is that they do what they do.
Do they do it because someone told them that if they can "be good" that everything will be okay? Do they think that if everyone else doesn't bend to thier will that God is going to take points off thier "good score"?

why are they concerned with what others do in the first place?

I mix with Agnostics, Christians, Hindus, and Atheists.
I do avoid the extremists though.

those kinds of "Christians" annoy me too, they make the rest of us look bad, and I can't help but wonder why it is that they do what they do.
Do they do it because someone told them that if they can "be good" that everything will be okay? Do they think that if everyone else doesn't bend to thier will that God is going to take points off thier "good score"?

why are they concerned with what others do in the first place?


I really dont know, but I'd like to think that in thier hearts, they at least mean well.
That is, I would, if I didnt see human nature as darker than that.

Some of them truly think that what one book says, must be good for everyone, regardless of wether they will accept it, or not.

To be fair, the majority of Christians I meet, seem to be decent people, at first glance, but if its a majority, its a slim one.

Some of them truly think that what one book says, must be good for everyone, regardless of wether they will accept it, or not.



I think that's one of the tings that annoy me most: the fact that some simply hide behind the book in the blind belief that if they follow it to the letter, they will be "saved". The obvious refusal to think for oneself for 2 minuted, the denial that a book that was written by human beings inevitably has flaws, the ignorance of the fact that it was in fact written for people who had a completely different view of the world, of right and wrong and of the way to live their lives than we do today and the logical conclusion that not everything that made sense 4000 years ago makes sense today.

Plus this strange missionary zeal, best expressed in sentences like "If it wasn't true, why did people die for it?", completely oblivious to the fact that if martyrs gave credibility, Islam or communism would have just as much claim to the absolute truth.

Maybe that's why I hardly ever had a hard time around European Christians... they regard religion as a private matter, ready to discuss it if asked, but otherwise nobody's business.

Simple answer: You're hanging out with the wrong Christians. ;)

Simple answer: You're hanging out with the wrong Christians. ;)

You mean I should stop hanging out in NS General? :eek:

This thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=452716) basically got me thinking about the fact that I ...<snip>
I'm here! Feel uncomforatble!!!:fluffle:

You mean I should stop hanging out in NS General? :eek:
Only the wacko types. We're not all bad.

Somewhere between the closed minds of the militant atheist and the raving evangelical......






......the truth lies.


But that's just one deist-Taoist's opinion.

Moderation, y'all. Balance.

We've got an atheist's club on our campus.. I showed up to their first meeting (free food).. it was mostly anti-Bush (this was immediately before his re-election) and anti-GOP stuff, about how Christians would destroy the country if they could, etc. I basically sat there and poked fun at their more outrageous and/or conspiratorial claims, enjoyed the free chow, and went home..

Bush had been re-elected by the time they met again, and had gotten about 35% of the atheist/agnostic vote.. leading me to ask something like "given that 1/3 of atheists voted for Bush, shouldn't we present some diversity of opinions, rather than a steady stream of Noam Chomsky documentaries?" The looks I got were priceless..

"College Atheists: Saving our Rights from the Religious Right" was the motto on their posters.. needless to say, they were none too pleased to learn that a good chunk of their ranks were Bushies, and that a good number of evangelical Christians voted for Kerry... but then, their cries of "where's the empirical evidence" (when disputing religious thought), never extended to political events that didn't support their ideology.. :p
I hate shit like that. Why didn't they just admit to being an anti-Republican political group in the first place?

It's a sick variant on the already nasty "political groups pretending to be religious groups".

Simple answer: You're hanging out with the wrong Christians. ;)

I'd have to say this is the most sensible answer in the whole thread so far...but I've only read pages 1, 2, and this one. I think.

By the way, Catholicism is WRONG!!! But that's beyond the thread subject. Isn't it?

This thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=452716) basically got me thinking about the fact that I seem not only to turn into an agnostic, but also rather uneasy around some Christians. Some even manage to make me downright aggressive... that's normally extremely hard to achieve, the only person who regularly succeeded in making me aggressive before was my father.

I grew up as a Catholic, in a Catholic environment, went to a Catholic (Jesuit) school... I have questioned Christian faith for as long as I can remember, and I particularly liked my school because we were encouraged to do so. jesuits are generally rather focused on knowledge and meditation, on introspection and a conscious acceptance of faith rather than blind belief. While I disagreed with the Catholic church in several points, I never felt the slightest urge to renounce it, and I guess I would still defend some of its teachings today.

And yet, I no longer would call myself a Christian. Which in itself isn't a problem... but I am quite surprised at the fact that some people (especially here, I have to admit that I never really met American Christians before) make me feel like so... well... aggressively arrogant?

Generally, anytime you use the actions of some to demonize a whole group, you should be disappointed in yourself. There are many Christians, even American Christians, that would not likely be disrespectful to you or your beliefs. I think you'll find dregs among any large group of people, and for some reason they always seem to be very vocal, but you can't judge all Christians by the actions of a few any more than you can judge all French or judge all democrats or all Muslims. You get the picture.

Generally, anytime you use the actions of some to demonize a whole group, you should be disappointed in yourself. There are many Christians, even American Christians, that would not likely be disrespectful to you or your beliefs. I think you'll find dregs among any large group of people, and for some reason they always seem to be very vocal, but you can't judge all Christians by the actions of a few any more than you can judge all French or judge all democrats or all Muslims. You get the picture.

That is why I said SOME Christians....

That is why I said SOME Christians....

I suppose I didn't read it that way and should have. I'll change my point then.

I think people who are particularly dogmatic in their beliefs, be they atheists, Christian, Republican, Democrat, American, European, etc., are generally difficult to talk to because they have a with us or against us attitude (hmmmm... where have we heard that before?). I would hold being overly dogmatic against anyone of any belief, not just Christians.

Do I make you uncomfortable, what with my boyish good looks?

I'm sorry that many Christians make you feel uncomfortable. It's not the witness I want to have. Anyway, maybe try making your discomfort known and see if they stop. Maybe.

Olara']Do I make you uncomfortable, what with my boyish good looks?

I'm sorry that many Christians make you feel uncomfortable. It's not the witness I want to have. Anyway, maybe try making your discomfort known and see if they stop. Maybe.

In my experience, they take that as an invitation to walk all over you... after all, you displayed signs of doubt by feeling uneasy about their obvious, loud, steadfast and clearly right and true (exclusively so) belief.
The problem is, many mistake any interest in religion and in religious discussion as an invitation to convert you

I kinda know how you feel. I spent 13 years in Catholic school, if you count kindergarten, and honestly, I got a great education. I think the Catholic church is wrong on a lot of issues, but there is some validity. There are Christians that make me and my friends uncomfortable, too. We call them Bible Beaters. I know, its wrong. I think most of the Christians who make me feel uncomfortable are those who are paying to much attention to the little things. The forget the really important Bible passages, like "Love thy neighbor as thyself", "judge not lest you be judged", and "How is it you see the splinter in your neighbor's eye and not the plank in your own?" I just try to hang out with open minded people, no matter what church or mosque or temple they frequent or don't on whatever day of the week. But not all of us American Christians are psycho, I assure you.

What on earth would you talk about?

http://sportinlife.blogspot.com/

From this blog, it appears they can discuss concerns regarding:

- Misuse of religion for bad ends (such as war or racism)
- The possible introduction of creationism/ID in schools
- Separation of church and state
- How to work together with liberal "people of religion" when they have common goals

and probably other things