NationStates Jolt Archive

Have a look at this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4407558.stm


Isn't this a bit drastic, or is the situation at the point where it's necessary?

Doesn't matter. Wouldn't work anyway.

Duncan Hunter is a fucking idiot.

What's stopping them going round in a boat?

Duncan Hunter is a fucking idiot.

Quoted for truth.

Fence isn't going to stop them. We need a wall or something with more active patrols but that's a lot of $.

Have you ever seen the movie "A Day Without a Mexican (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0377744/)"?

But anyway, I think no. No to the idea of a huge fence. It's just silly.

So the US needs something like the Great Wall of China?

Fence isn't going to stop them. We need a wall or something with more active patrols but that's a lot of $.If you really want to stop them, start fining the ever-loving-fuck out of companies that hire illegals and toss some execs in jail over it. Of course, what would really happen if you did that would be a sea change in immigration law, because companies would never stand for it, but at least it would be legal immigration.

If you really want to stop them, start fining the ever-loving-fuck out of companies that hire illegals and toss some execs in jail over it. Of course, what would really happen if you did that would be a sea change in immigration law, because companies would never stand for it, but at least it would be legal immigration.

That is definitely a good idea but you are right that would never happen. But yeah legal immigration I don't have a problem with.

Do you think it'll happen?

So the US needs something like the Great Wall of China?
That is only a foot high in some places? Yeah...no.

There are already millions of illegal immigrants here, working far harder than a lot of US citizens who would prefer to remain unemployed rather than do the jobs the immigrants are doing.

I was listening to an NPR story about cleaning up New Orleans - and immigrants are willing to do cleanup for 17 dollars an hour (I did similar work in cleaning up demolished building debris for 5 bucks an hour in the early 1980s). Apparently, few locals are willing to do the cleanup, and those that are willing refuse to do it for less than 20 dollars an hour.

As far as I'm concerned, if you work here and pay taxes, you can become a US citizen.

It is just a new step to reach the Autocracy, or the total isolation from the World. Or the Third Wall, after the Berlin and Israel ones.

Who knows, maybe "God" told Duncan Hunter to do that. :D

If you really want to stop them, start fining the ever-loving-fuck out of companies that hire illegals and toss some execs in jail over it. Of course, what would really happen if you did that would be a sea change in immigration law, because companies would never stand for it, but at least it would be legal immigration.

well thats one possible solution, my personal thoughts are that mexico needs a revolution, the mexicans need to reform their own government if things are so terrible there. many of the illegals that cross come over here living in poverty, but they strive to stay here instead of going back. so if its that terrible back there maybe they need to reform their own country. with the millions, billions, not too sure of exact numbers that try to cross they can easily cause a revolution. and fix their country, a govenrment overhaul.

There are already millions of illegal immigrants here, working far harder than a lot of US citizens who would prefer to remain unemployed rather than do the jobs the immigrants are doing.

I was listening to an NPR story about cleaning up New Orleans - and immigrants are willing to do cleanup for 17 dollars an hour (I did similar work in cleaning up demolished building debris for 5 bucks an hour in the early 1980s). Apparently, few locals are willing to do the cleanup, and those that are willing refuse to do it for less than 20 dollars an hour.

As far as I'm concerned, if you work here and pay taxes, you can become a US citizen.
Right now in Florida, FEMA is hiring temps for $14 an hour, 12 hour days, 7 days a week, OT after 8 hours in a day--translates to about $1400 a week before taxes. My aunt-in-law just got hired on there, and if I weren't teaching, I'd consider it--that's nearly double what I make as a college instructor.

Screw the fence lets just turn it into a giant minefield.

As far as I'm concerned, if you work here and pay taxes, you can become a US citizen.

many illegals dont pay taxes, many get paid under the table. and in some cases some illegals get on the welfare system, get paid by the government and also work and get paid under the table pulling in dual income for working one job.

Isn't this a bit drastic, or is the situation at the point where it's necessary?

It probably is necessary, but as proposed, it probably won't work.

The only thing that will solve the illegal immigration problem is to hold employers responsible for hiring people who don't have green cards or can't prove that they're U.S. citizens. Heavy fines and perhaps even jail sentences should be imposed on violators.

Also, we need to deny welfare, public education, and free health care to those who are in the country illegally. In other words, stop making it attractive for them to come here, and then you won't need a fence.

many illegals dont pay taxes, many get paid under the table. and in some cases some illegals get on the welfare system, get paid by the government and also work and get paid under the table pulling in dual income for working one job.Everything you just said also applies to citizens working here--it's an economic class issue more than anything else. When I was in college, I worked three jobs, but only reported one--it was what I had to do to pay the rent. (I was, however, never on welfare.)

Also, we need to deny welfare, public education, and free health care to those who are in the country illegally. In other words, stop making it attractive for them to come here, and then you won't need a fence.

i agree with you 100% on this, but this will never happen due to human rights and civil liberties and other crap like that, plus there needs to be stricter rules on being born in the usa to become citizen, many illegals have a child here and then can stay here because their son or daughter is a legal citizen.

Everything you just said also applies to citizens working here--it's an economic class issue more than anything else. When I was in college, I worked three jobs, but only reported one--it was what I had to do to pay the rent. (I was, however, never on welfare.)

HOLY CRAP, three jobs and college, did you sleep?

We need to make it easier for them to get here and stay here legally.

HOLY CRAP, three jobs and college, did you sleep?
Yep--graduated cum laude and went to grad school. Oh, and I had bi-weekly visitation with my daughter, which often involved getting up at 6:00 on Saturdays to drive her 40 miles to a soccer game. I never worked more than 20 hours at any single job--I was a bartender and a waiter--but I averaged about 50 hours a week of employment and never took less than 15 hours except for my last semester, when I only needed 12 to graduate.

many illegals dont pay taxes, many get paid under the table. and in some cases some illegals get on the welfare system, get paid by the government and also work and get paid under the table pulling in dual income for working one job.
They don't pay certain taxes...but they still pay taxes on goods and services. So screw the income tax, and hit all your folks with higher sales taxes.

i agree with you 100% on this, but this will never happen due to human rights and civil liberties and other crap like that, .
Yeah, the ideals your nation are founded on...crap.:rolleyes:

How come there are people for the wall, and people for immigration reform, and people for fining companies that hire illegals, but no one for ALL of it?

I say build the wall, make it easier for immigrants to enter legally, fine the hell out of companies who hire illegals, give citizenship to all illegals already here who prove they are responsible citizens, crack down HARD on anyone trying to enter illegally (use the same statute used for felony trespass) The economic boost from all the extra taxes paid by "now illegal" immigrants and future immigrants who would become tax paying citizens would most likely offset the price of the wall.

Its a win win proposition in my opinion.

Yeah, the ideals your nation are founded on...crap.:rolleyes:

I keep thinking that people missed the point of my post.

They are already HERE. By the millions.

Building a fence will NOT keep out the millions who are already HERE.

So the US needs something like the Great Wall of China?
I don't think that the Great Wall was built to keep people out, I believe that it was erected to slow invaders down when they tried to leave so that the military could catch up with them and recover the plunder/avenge the dead.
And what the US needs is that wall from Jurrasic Park, and some Velociraptors to patrol the border.

There are already millions of illegal immigrants here, working far harder than a lot of US citizens who would prefer to remain unemployed rather than do the jobs the immigrants are doing.

I was listening to an NPR story about cleaning up New Orleans - and immigrants are willing to do cleanup for 17 dollars an hour (I did similar work in cleaning up demolished building debris for 5 bucks an hour in the early 1980s). Apparently, few locals are willing to do the cleanup, and those that are willing refuse to do it for less than 20 dollars an hour.

As far as I'm concerned, if you work here and pay taxes, you can become a US citizen.

If it were closer to me, I would work nights and weekends for $17.00 bucks and hour, cash, doing clean-up work there.

I have nothing against the immigrants that come here and work hard,long hours to do jobs that American born citizens feel they might be too good for.
I just dont like the "illegal immigrants" being here.
Go to these people- where they wait for day labor pick up-help them complete the necessary paperwork, show them its ok to be known and responsible. I know some of these guys-they are scared of us and our system. They work two jobs and send most of the $$ home to Mexico to family. Help them open a bank account, get proper ID, driver's license, etc...-Make them want to become citizens or at least legitimate ID to establish themselves.
Instead of having no responsibilty whatsoever when they decide to drive and have an accident, or use hospitals and skip after treatment, etc...

I agree a majority of them do the hard honest work many turn down.

Help them be legitimate. Help them contribute to the system, instead of just taking from it.

I keep thinking that people missed the point of my post.

They are already HERE. By the millions.

Building a fence will NOT keep out the millions who are already HERE.
It'll actually keep them from escaping!:p

Does anyone have an indepth cost analysis of illegal immigration? Because quite often, the numbers only include Federal expenses versus Federal income, and completely ignore the state by state inputs/outputs. On a country-wide level, taking both state and federal expenses/income into account, what impact to illegal immigrants have on the US economy?

I say build the wall, make it easier for immigrants to enter legally, fine the hell out of companies who hire illegals, give citizenship to all illegals already here who prove they are responsible citizens, crack down HARD on anyone trying to enter illegally (use the same statute used for felony trespass) The economic boost from all the extra taxes paid by "now illegal" immigrants and future immigrants who would become tax paying citizens would most likely offset the price of the wall.



I would definitely work, but it would probably be difficult to deploy.

It'll actually keep them from escaping!:p

Does anyone have an indepth cost analysis of illegal immigration? Because quite often, the numbers only include Federal expenses versus Federal income, and completely ignore the state by state inputs/outputs. On a country-wide level, taking both state and federal expenses/income into account, what impact to illegal immigrants have on the US economy?

From what I understand its generlly a very good impact. Think about it, they pay sales taxes on everything they buy here. And since they aren't citizens they don't collect any of our benefits. I'm sure Social Security is benefitting greatly from that.

From what I understand its generlly a very good impact. Think about it, they pay sales taxes on everything they buy here. And since they aren't citizens they don't collect any of our benefits. I'm sure Social Security is benefitting greatly from that.

see your living in a perfect world, but MANY and i mean the majority of them recieve benefits, healthcare, education, even welfare.

see your living in a perfect world, but MANY and i mean the majority of them recieve benefits, healthcare, education, even welfare.

Really? Where do you get your numbers?

Really? Where do you get your numbers?
did a report a whiile back on the welfare, i dont have the sources give me a bit of time, i will find them for you.

see your living in a perfect world, but MANY and i mean the majority of them recieve benefits, healthcare, education, even welfare.
What needs to be determined is whether their contributions match, or exceed the costs involved in delivering those programs to them...overall. And I'm sorry, but unless you have some stats, anything you say to support either side, is just conjecture.

Finding out how much they receive in welfare benefits etc, really doesn't give us the important information. It's only half of the story.

Help them open a bank account, get proper ID, driver's license, etc...-Make them want to become citizens or at least legitimate ID to establish themselves.
Instead of having no responsibilty whatsoever when they decide to drive and have an accident, or use hospitals and skip after treatment, etc...

I agree a majority of them do the hard honest work many turn down.

Help them be legitimate. Help them contribute to the system, instead of just taking from it.
Hell yeah! Even let them bring their families here too. I'm all for immigration. Just not illegally.

I think thats a big misconception about people who want to build a border wall, like me. People think I don't want Mexicans to come here. But it isn't true. Hell, lets build another statue of liberty at the southern border. Let as many people in as want to work.

JUST DO IT LEGALLY. And be respectful of our country. If you work somewhere, and part of your job is to speak to customers, please learn english first. You don't have to speek english at home. You don't have to be an english major. But when I ask how the job is going, or when I order food in my own country, I believe it's common courtesy that you be able to understand me.

Obey American law like the rest of us. If the first thing you do when you cross the border is break the law, how the hell can we ever trust you to obey it?

It'll actually keep them from escaping!:p

Does anyone have an indepth cost analysis of illegal immigration? Because quite often, the numbers only include Federal expenses versus Federal income, and completely ignore the state by state inputs/outputs. On a country-wide level, taking both state and federal expenses/income into account, what impact to illegal immigrants have on the US economy?

Well, I don't know how to count this, but in the Washington, DC Metro area, if you're staying in a hotel room - it was cleaned by an illegal. If you have landscaping done, the work was done by illegals. Nanny? Childcare? Housecleaning? Roofing? Home repairs? Illegals.

Not that they are that cheap, either. They know now that no one else is willing to do the work, so their wages have gone up (at least around here).

If they suddenly were deported,

a) there would be no one to fill the labor gap
b) a lot of things would come to a halt

What needs to be determined is whether their contributions match, or exceed the costs involved in delivering those programs to them...overall.

contributions such as cleaning for the rich, working for contracters, yep those really benefit me, contractors that pay them little but charge the same amount for the job, rich people having a clean house, how will life ever go on.

contributions such as cleaning for the rich, working for contracters, yep those really benefit me, contractors that pay them little but charge the same amount for the job, rich people having a clean house, how will life ever go on.
Smarten up. You are talking about a societal issue on one hand, and then you want to discuss it as to how it affects you personally? Ridiculous. And the idea that only 'rich' people employ illegals is completely erroneous. You don't even have to be upper middle class to emply a gardener. Your biases about employing domestic help need to be put aside, and this issue can only be viewed on a more holistic level if you really want anything to come of it.

A fence ain't gonna stop them. We'd need a wall, but like stated, that costs too much.

I still approve of the idea though.

Smarten up. You are talking about a societal issue on one hand, and then you want to discuss it as to how it affects you personally? Ridiculous. And the idea that only 'rich' people employ illegals is completely erroneous. You don't even have to be upper middle class to emply a gardener. Your biases about employing domestic help need to be put aside, and this issue can only be viewed on a more holistic level if you really want anything to come of it.

point is, i dont employ the illegals, i pay taxes, they use up the tax money, they do nothing for me, its a one way street.

Smarten up. You are talking about a societal issue on one hand, and then you want to discuss it as to how it affects you personally? Ridiculous. And the idea that only 'rich' people employ illegals is completely erroneous. You don't even have to be upper middle class to emply a gardener. Your biases about employing domestic help need to be put aside, and this issue can only be viewed on a more holistic level if you really want anything to come of it.

Almost everyone in Herndon who lives in a home of their own (single family or townhouse) hires a housecleaner. If they have kids they hire a nanny. Almost everyone has landscaping and lawn care done. Roofs are replaced regularly.

There is still plenty of work available - but I only see illegals doing it.

I know of one landscaping business that hires them. And they get paid 24 dollars an hour to start. They are not being cheated, and are not cheap.

A fence ain't gonna stop them. We'd need a wall, but like stated, that costs too much.

I still approve of the idea though.

Opponents of the fence have criticised its likely costs - estimated at about $8 billion (£4.5bn) (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4407558.stm)



• Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household. (http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html)

Judging from these numbers, we would have 2.4 billion dollars left over after we built the wall, if we also implemented a program to legalize illegal immigrants, and taxed them.

point is, i dont employ the illegals, i pay taxes, they use up the tax money, they do nothing for me, its a one way street.
What a simplistic understanding of basic economics.

Have a look at this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4407558.stm


Isn't this a bit drastic, or is the situation at the point where it's necessary?

A profoundly dramatically stupid and pointless idea. Not to mention it won't even work. And the cost would be astronomical. Enough Americans are engaged in the trafficking of Hispanics over the border that it would most likely be an American to breach the wall first.

Note to all Texans. Vote this guy out before he can cause any more damage.

• Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household. (http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html)
These are the kind of stats I referred to as misleading. You're looking at this just on a federal tax level, without factoring in their contributions to the economy on a state and federal level. Taxes alone do not tell the full story.

What a simplistic understanding of basic economics.

We could give him a simple example.

1. Employer pays illegal worker.
2. Illegal worker gets hungry at the end of the day.
3. Goes into store and buys food - spends money.

They also do valuable labor - which adds value to things - whether it's roofing (which adds value to a house), or nanny (which allows a mother to go to work and produce more for the economy), it's a boost to the economy.

We could give him a simple example.

1. Employer pays illegal worker.

under tablbe most of the time in cash form, does not pay income tax, the leading source of money for the federal governemtn, which is what pays the welfare for the illegals to be on.

2. Illegal worker gets hungry at the end of the day.

let me explain a concept of food stamps, part of welfare, that many of them recieve.

3. Goes into store and buys food - spends money.

buys food, in many cases can be with food stamps, and other cases still no sales tax.


They also do valuable labor - which adds value to things - whether it's roofing (which adds value to a house),

it isnt the labor that adds the value, its the materials.

or nanny (which allows a mother to go to work and produce more for the economy), it's a boost to the economy.

once agian nanny doesnt get taxed because the governemtn never sees that money being handed over, can be a greater boost to the economy to open those jobs up to tax paying legal citizens.

under tablbe most of the time in cash form, does not pay income tax, the leading source of money for the federal governemtn, which is what pays the welfare for the illegals to be on.

None of the illegals in Herndon are on welfare. It's impossible to get without a valid social security number. Try again.

let me explain a concept of food stamps, part of welfare, that many of them recieve. Not here they don't.

buys food, in many cases can be with food stamps, and other cases still no sales tax.
I see them shopping with cash in such great numbers that there is an enormous grocery store (as big as a large Wal Mart) that caters SOLELY to them - and it makes a LOT of money. It only accepts cash.

it isnt the labor that adds the value, its the materials.
Tell that to a chef. When you order a steak, does the cow walk in and die on your table, or is there some labor and preparation involved that makes the steak something you would want to pay for?
once agian nanny doesnt get taxed because the governemtn never sees that money being handed over, can be a greater boost to the economy to open those jobs up to tax paying legal citizens.
The Federal Government's spending is hardly a boost to the economy. I'll give you a little hint about the scale of things.

More money changes hands in one day at the New York Stock Exchange than is spent by the Federal Government in a fiscal year. That's what is driving the engine - the market itself - not the Federal Government.

I've offered to pay people I personally know who are on welfare and are able-bodied - 20 dollars an hour to watch my youngest son full time. I even offered healthcare benefits. Want to know how many said no? All of them.

I had a line of Salvadorean women willing to work for those wages and benefits. And I DO pay the taxes.

As a result, my wife gets to work full time - also adding value to the economy.

If you think that Federal spending is the biggest driver in the economy, you are sadly, sadly misinformed.

http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/p/a/pam223/recom.htm

1.The average budget for increasing border patrol ranges from 2 to 3 billion dollars a year, while the amount that illegal immigrants pay in Federal taxes is over 7 billion dollars. In other words, almost half of the undocumented workers’ contributions to the U.S. government are spent building tougher border control. The following points about illegal Mexican immigrants are also crucial cost factors:

· Contribute 5 to 10 times as much in taxes than they use through public services, including education.

· Workers add 63 billion dollars to the state of California budget through labor and taxes.

· Only 4% of undocumented Mexican immigrants apply for public assistance, less than the average American family.

· 86% of undocumented Mexicans work

· Work between 5-7 hours longer than the average American family.

· Generally get paid 20% less than their American counterparts.

These are the kind of stats I referred to as misleading. You're looking at this just on a federal tax level, without factoring in their contributions to the economy on a state and federal level. Taxes alone do not tell the full story.
Well, of course you have to calculate how much money they put into the economy, as well as how much they take back from welfare. But making people who don't pay taxes pay them certainly wouldn't hurt us.

http://www.nap.edu/books/0309063566/html/254.html

The above link is an indepth cost analysis of both legal and illegal immigration. Whether illegal immigrants are a drain, or a boon to the economy varies depending on the area, but on a national level, it pretty much evens out. They aren't really hurting your economy the way you like to believe they are.

Well, of course you have to calculate how much money they put into the economy, as well as how much they take back from welfare. But making people who don't pay taxes pay them certainly wouldn't hurt us.
Then make taxes more market driven, and unavoidable. Cut down on income taxes and pass the burden onto sales taxes.

http://www.nap.edu/books/0309063566/html/254.html

The above link is an indepth cost analysis of both legal and illegal immigration. Whether illegal immigrants are a drain, or a boon to the economy varies depending on the area, but on a national level, it pretty much evens out. They aren't really hurting your economy the way you like to believe they are.
Don't really think they are hurting us too much. I just think that if they were legal, and payed taxes, they would help more than they currently are. And besides that, its just immoral for them to enjoy the same things for free (highways, parks, sidewalks, police protection, military protection, sewer systems, water systems, etc. etc.) that I have to pay for.

I'm all for them coming here, just as long as they pay their taxes like the rest of us. Not to say a lot of them don't, but a significant number get all the benifits of our society for free, while the rest of us pay hard earned money for it.

Just make it fair, thats all.

Yes, well I'm not really aiming my argument gun at you in particular...just to the ones who believe, without any evidence to support them, that illegal immigration is somehow going to bankrupt the US.

Of course it will be better if their contributions become more above board. I agree wholeheartedly. Building a wall of ignorance will only harm the US.

Then make taxes more market driven, and unavoidable. Cut down on income taxes and pass the burden onto sales taxes.
Sounds fair to me. :D

(holy crap, did we just agree? :eek: )

point is, i dont employ the illegals, i pay taxes, they use up the tax money, they do nothing for me, its a one way street.
If you buy fruit they're doing something for you by keeping the price of fruit down.

Everybody in the US benefits at some level from the presence of illegal immigrants doing cheap labor. It's not all a one way street.

Wouldn't it be funny if the fence gets built and the only way to do it within budget is by hiring illegal immigrants?

Wouldn't it be funny if the fence gets built and the only way to do it within budget is by hiring illegal immigrants?
So funny, because it would probably be true:)

(holy crap, did we just agree? :eek: )
Of course not! Never! shhhhhh

If you buy fruit they're doing something for you by keeping the price of fruit down.

Everybody in the US benefits at some level from the presence of illegal immigrants doing cheap labor. It's not all a one way street.

Wouldn't it be funny if the fence gets built and the only way to do it within budget is by hiring illegal immigrants?

You remember all those poor, huddled, unemployed people in New Orleans, right?

Contractors set up shop, hired workers - at 17 dollars an hour to clear debris.

Guess who lined up to do the work? Not the poor, huddled, unemployed people of New Orleans.

On an interview on NPR, it was said that few locals were willing to do the work at all, and those that were willing were not willing to be paid less than 20 dollars an hour.

I bet they would hire illegals to build the fence.

Of course not! Never! shhhhhh
In that case, your wrong, and I'm right! :D

I bet they would hire illegals to build the fence.
Nothing wrong with that, as long as they take the proper steps to make them legal, and deduct taxes from their wages. And if they are willing to pay Americans $20/hour, then they should pay the immigrants the same amount. I for one wish I had as much energy and work ethics as Mexican Immigrants! I'd get a lot more done! :D

And BTW, Mexican food is some of the best in the world! MMMMmmmm Tacos.

None of the illegals in Herndon are on welfare

is this Herndon, Virginia, as in the state of virginia, as in part of the united states, as in on the same welfare system. if so, your wrong. illegals that enter the united states can easily get welfare easiest way, is to have a child born in the united states.

It's impossible to get without a valid social security number. Try again.

they have a child while here in the united states, boom, childs a legal citizen, child gets social secuirty, united states govenrment ends up supporting entire family.

I see them shopping with cash in such great numbers that there is an enormous grocery store (as big as a large Wal Mart) that caters SOLELY to them - and it makes a LOT of money. It only accepts cash.

far from the truth, your big example walmart, accepts food stamps. ever see a sign saying wic accepted here, go to walmart you will see one. those are food stamps.


Tell that to a chef. When you order a steak, does the cow walk in and die on your table, or is there some labor and preparation involved that makes the steak something you would want to pay for?

theres labor in everything, but even with food its still the materials, you go to a high class restuarant with the top of the line chefs but they use the lowest grade meat, meat from the parts of the animals that tends to be tough, all fat no meat to it. well i guess with your arguement they use the top of the line chefs so it must be good.

and on a side note we were talking of appreciating in value, food doesnt appreciate in value, over time food lowers in value.

The Federal Government's spending is hardly a boost to the economy. I'll give you a little hint about the scale of things.

the GREAT DEPRESSION in the united states, would you say that the way the united states got out of this depression was from a boost to the economy?

would you say that boost came from government spending?

More money changes hands in one day at the New York Stock Exchange than is spent by the Federal Government in a fiscal year. That's what is driving the engine - the market itself - not the Federal Government.

sure it does, i never said it didnt

I've offered to pay people I personally know who are on welfare and are able-bodied - 20 dollars an hour to watch my youngest son full time. I even offered healthcare benefits. Want to know how many said no? All of them.

I had a line of Salvadorean women willing to work for those wages and benefits. And I DO pay the taxes.
As a result, my wife gets to work full time - also adding value to the economy.

i never said the legal citizens on welfare are hard working, thats a completly different topic, i can go on a rant about them for days on end, but that for another forum.

If you think that Federal spending is the biggest driver in the economy, you are sadly, sadly misinformed.

once again something i didnt say. what i said is that the federal government gets income from the income tax, which is what they use to pay welfare. the tax money comes from the legal tax paying citizens.

the federal reserve bank controls the economy, but thats not even government thats owned by private investors.

one word: landmines

one word: landmines

LOL!

Wouldn't it be funny if the fence gets built and the only way to do it within budget is by hiring illegal immigrants?
There was a writer on the Ed Schultz show about an hour ago, a hispanic man, who said that there's been this joke in Mexico for a long time about just such a fence--that the US would hire illegals to build it, the illegals would line it with taco stands and make a killing, the US would realize it wasn't working and tear it down and they'd hire the illegals to do it.

I went into a McDonalds in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma this morning to get a couple of McMuffins for breakfast. (It is quicker to park, go inside, get your stuff, and leave than it is to wait in line at the drive through.)

The only non-Mexican behind the counter was the lady manager. After I got my sandwiches, I was very tempted to holler out, “Donde esta su carde verde?” (Where is your Green Card.?) I thought about it and decided I would be killed in the stampede for the exits. Then I thought about calling the INS, but that wouldn’t do any good for two reasons. First, I had no proof that the workers were illegal. Secondly, the INS wouldn’t come out anyway.

Then I thought about organizing a boycott of the store, but again no proof and not enough time. I guess I’ll call my Congressman and ask him if Congress can’t pass a bill to increase the fine to companies to say $100,000.00 per illegal employee per day and START ENFORCING IT along with all the other immigration laws. We should also cut off all federal funds for any jurisdiction that doesn’t allow their law enforcement officers to arrest illegal aliens.

Fence isn't going to stop them. We need a wall or something with more active patrols but that's a lot of $.

We need both. And tear down all of those stupid aid stations, they encourage criminals.

If the situation in America is anything like the situation here in the UK then I doubt a fence will solve anything. The problem is that we might end up deporting the immigrants, but there's no shortage of corrupt employers that will employ them. What we need is huge fines against companies that employ illegal immigrant and possibly even jail sentences for some of those responsible for the worst excesses. But that will never happen because the UK, like the US, is a country where the government takes its orders from big business.

bump

Whoever's been saying it, it's true that the wall won't do the job itself, especially without adequate watchmen.. but it'd help those watchmen if it were built and well maintained, there's no question. Cost will be the question.