NationStates Jolt Archive

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XM8 Put to Sleep

November 3, 2005: The XM8, the U.S. Army’s design for a new assault rifle and light machine-gun, has been cancelled. Actually, the project was put on hold last July. At the time, the reason was believed to be the ongoing debate over whether a new caliber (6.8mm was most often mentioned) should be adopted. While the XM8 used more modern engineering, and was lighter and more reliable, it was basically an improved M-16, just another 5.56mm assault rifle. Meanwhile, SOCOM adopted another new 5.56mm design (SCAR), while the U.S. Marine Corps decided to stay with the M-16 in the future. The XM8 may be revived, in another caliber. But for now, the army does not want to spend several billion bucks on a new assault rifle. Better to wait until the war in Iraq dies down, and radically new weapons, like the 25mm XM-25, hit the field, and pile up some combat experience. Basically, the army believes there are better alternatives than the XM8, but are not sure exactly what these alternatives are.

More at:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/guns_personal_weapons/index.php

Good riddance to OK trash.

Geez. Just when I read up on the damn thing and outfit my Space Corp with them....they cancel it. Now I have to rethink. I'll keep them anyway I guess....but any advice on a decent assault rifle?

Old news. They also cancelled the OICW.

In some good news, the Army is ordering 4400 KAC SR-25 rifles, to be called the XM110 SASS.

The Army evidently wants to go beyond the Marine Corps idea of adding designated marksmen to each squad - they plan to increase the number of trained snipers in the Army to over 10 times the current level.

Semiautomatic, without all the moving parts of the M-14/M-21 system. As accurate as the bolt action M-24. And complete with removable sound suppressor.
http://www.knightarmco.com/sass.pdf

Old news. They also cancelled the OICW.

In some good news, the Army is ordering 4400 KAC SR-25 rifles, to be called the XM110 SASS.

The Army evidently wants to go beyond the Marine Corps idea of adding designated marksmen to each squad - they plan to increase the number of trained snipers in the Army to over 10 times the current level.

Semiautomatic, without all the moving parts of the M-14/M-21 system. As accurate as the bolt action M-24. And complete with removable sound suppressor.
http://www.knightarmco.com/sass.pdf

So, where is the line to buy a SASS?

So, where is the line to buy a SASS?
KAC is opening a special production line just to make these rifles. And until that is up and running, getting an SR-25 will be difficult.

The SR-25K under normal circumstances goes for around 7000 dollars.

The OICW was a POS... Devestatingly deadly (in theory, at least), it had all the ergonomics of a 8"x2" plank. Which is to say; None. It doesn't matter how theoretically effective a weapon might be on paper - If the troops hate the way it handles, it's an expensive door-stop. The XM8 was(is) much more interesting, but as noted above, there's no pressing need for it at this time, nor in the immediate future. However, I do hope design and research efforts continue, because there *will* come a time, in the not-far-distant furture when a replacement for the venerable M16 (and its descendants) will become necessary, and it'd be nice to have a replacement waiting 'on the shelf.'

The OICW was a POS... Devestatingly deadly (in theory, at least), it had all the ergonomics of a 8"x2" plank. Which is to say; None. It doesn't matter how theoretically effective a weapon might be on paper - If the troops hate the way it handles, it's an expensive door-stop. The XM8 was(is) much more interesting, but as noted above, there's no pressing need for it at this time, nor in the immediate future. However, I do hope design and research efforts continue, because there *will* come a time, in the not-far-distant furture when a replacement for the venerable M16 (and its descendants) will become necessary, and it'd be nice to have a replacement waiting 'on the shelf.'

What do you think about the HK 416 as a potential upgrade/replacement?

I get the feeling that they'll keep asking for new rifles and dropping them for the next 10 years or so without actually adopting them officially. Anyone else feel this way too?

I get the feeling that they'll keep asking for new rifles and dropping them for the next 10 years or so without actually adopting them officially. Anyone else feel this way too?

Actually, that's been going on since the 1960s...

But the XM110 has been purchased and is being deployed now.

What do you think about the HK 416 as a potential upgrade/replacement?It's an M-16 evolutionary descendant... Eh. Decent enough, but it shares the general strengths and failings of the M-16 family.

As for the XM110 SASS... It's a bull-pup. I don't like bull-pup designs from a human factors POV - They put the reciever right by your ear, and move the muzzle much closer to your face. Can you say "deafening noise..?" Can you say "hearing damage"..? Gooooood... I knew you could!

Some armies have accepted bull-pup designs (most notably the Steyr AUG, but there are others), but my father (former Chief Engineer, Human Engineering Lab, Aberdeen Proving Grounds) has particpated in extensive testing of many of those designs, and pretty much universally loathes them. Seeing as he's been on the sharp end himself, and has had to rely upon his rifle for his life, as well as being a highly respected defense engineer and human factors expert, I'm inclined to place heavy weight on his opinion.

One rifle that he thought might have great potential, once the bugs were worked out, was the HK G-11 (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as42-e.htm), which was tested in a developmental-only mode for the Army's Advanced Combat Rifle program. It also had ergonomics issues, but nothing that couldn't have been overcome fairly easily. I'm a fan of the caseless ammunition concept, but am still suspicious of it in actual application. Caseless ammo needs to be environmetally inert and stable. That is to say, it must work in a vast range of combat environments withough dimensional changes or performance degradation. To date, I don't think caseless ammo is quite there yet.

I've been saying this would happen, and lookie lookie.

Old news. They also cancelled the OICW.

Only if a few days ago equals old news. ;) The official　amendment to the solicitation canceling it is dated October 31. (Yes, I know it was suspended back in July. Now the stake is formally through the heart, hopefully for good.)

procnet.pica.mil (http://procnet.pica.army.mil/dbi/download/GoGetSolicitation.cfm?SolNum=W15QKN-05-R-0449)
http://www.murdoconline.net/archives/002960.html

In some good news, the Army is ordering 4400 KAC SR-25 rifles, to be called the XM110 SASS.

The Army evidently wants to go beyond the Marine Corps idea of adding designated marksmen to each squad - they plan to increase the number of trained snipers in the Army to over 10 times the current level.

Semiautomatic, without all the moving parts of the M-14/M-21 system. As accurate as the bolt action M-24. And complete with removable sound suppressor.
http://www.knightarmco.com/sass.pdf

Actually, that's been going on since the 1960s...

But the XM110 has been purchased and is being deployed now.

But will it really replace what it is meant to replace fully or will it simply be another oddity that will get cancelled halfway through?

But will it really replace what it is meant to replace fully or will it simply be another oddity that will get cancelled halfway through?

It's meant to replace the M-24, which is no longer the primary sniper weapon of the US Army.

Unlike the other weapon systems we've been talking about, the XM110 is merely the modern version of the AR-10, which preceded the M-16 in development.

It's a refinement, not a major change. It has also been around in the civilian and police world for a while - with a reputation for extreme accuracy and reliability.


I would note that they are ordering ten times as many weapon as are currently employed as sniper weapons today.

I like bullpups, they're more accurate and less unweildy due to decreased length.

Firing one without ear defenders is not fun however, and I've never been in a battle so who am I to judge.

I like bullpups, they're more accurate and less unweildy due to decreased length.

Firing one without ear defenders is not fun however, and I've never been in a battle so who am I to judge.Noted, on the handiness of bull-pups, but there are other ways around that issue. Combat intelligibility studies, however, have found that the temporary and long-term hearing loss associated with the increased percieved muzzle report significatntly degrades a soldier's ability to hear orders, or for that matter to hear other things, like the enemy. That's contra-indicated in combat!

Existing weapons also have that problem, and there are efforts afoot (and have been for years) to deal with it. I have personally fired a developmental M-16 varient that my father was working on that had an integral suppressor. It was so quiet that I could hear the recoil spring cycling! It had some seriously nifty other features, too, like roll-on/roll-off self-zeroing 4x optical sights with a 70mm or 80mm objective lens, which gave huge light-gathering ability and a very wide FOV. The roll-on/roll-off feature of those sights meant that you could convert your rifle into a fairly capable sniper's weapon in 10 seconds, or back again in a similar time period.

Hmmmm. I'm gonna have to ask him what became of that varient.

Any Australian, British, Irish, or New Zealand servicemen here who can tell us about bullpups in combat (I've fired an F88 on the range, but with ear protection obviously)?

Or Austrians, with their Steyer.

Any Australian, British, Irish, or New Zealand servicemen here who can tell us about bullpups in combat (I've fired an F88 on the range, but with ear protection obviously)?

I've fired the current British service rifle (though not in combat, but not at a range either - it was out in the desert somewhere).

I don't find it any handier or more accurate than the M-4 - and the Trilux sight is not as nice as an ACOG or an EOTech or Aimpoint. Same round, more parts. The mechanized infantry unit that I was visiting said that they hated it - it still had a tendency to fall apart spontaneously despite several MoD programs to "improve" the rifle.

The mechanized infantry unit that I was visiting said that they hated it - it still had a tendency to fall apart spontaneously despite several MoD programs to "improve" the rifle.That's a seperate issue from the hearing damage one - That's an issue of crap development, which is a threat to any new weapon, no matter what might be its underlying concept.

Eh... They should just make an AK variant that uses 5.56mm ammunition.

Eh... They should just make an AK variant that uses 5.56mm ammunition.
Been done already... Except it uses 5.45mm ammo. Works great, too.

Edit: Linky (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as02-e.htm)

There have been several AKs made for 5.56mm ammo, look for an SAR2 sometime. The AK is a good reliable rifle, but so recognizable as the "enemy's" weapon, that adopting any variant in the US would be unacceptable at any level.
The FAL could make a well deserved comeback, an excellent hard hitting battle rifle, but the trend is always lighter/small caliber.
Bring back the M14! Make the Springfield shorty, the SOCOM, the issue rifle, with the full size the Squad Marksman rifle...

The problem with the AK series today is its relative inaccuracy as well as the inability to do modular upgrades and addons.

The problem with the AK series today is its relative inaccuracy as well as the inability to do modular upgrades and addons.

The AKs that use the 7.62x39 are the ones that are innacurate. Not all AKs. The ones that use 5.45x39 (AK-74, AK102, 104, 105, 107, 108) are much more accurate. The AK103 is a modern version of the AK47 which also uses the 7.62 but I would assume it would be much more accruate.

The AKs that use the 7.62x39 are the ones that are innacurate. Not all AKs. The ones that use 5.45x39 (AK-74, AK102, 104, 105, 107, 108) are much more accurate. The AK103 is a modern version of the AK47 which also uses the 7.62 but I would assume it would be much more accruate.

The problem stems from the thing that gives the AK its reliability - the looseness of parts. Tighten up the parts to make it more accurate, and it loses the reliability.

Add to that the fact that most AKs do not sport the latest combat optics, and cannot usually be made to accept them, and you're putting people with EOTech sights against iron sighted AKs.