NationStates Jolt Archive

Simple question. It's a tired debate, but I'm not looking for a debate. Just the prevailing veiw in NS.

Simple question. It's a tired debate, but I'm not looking for a debate. Just the prevailing veiw in NS.
Simple answer: yes

Simple answer: yes
Well you're poll response indicated that. But thank you, anyway.

Complex answer: Yes, but only as a man-made construct used to spread fear and enforce the policies of it's clergy. Also used to provide for the well being of said clergy.

Simple answer: no.

No.

circa 86% is pretty damned high...

No, I don't.

We're at 77% for no god! Quick, we need more atheist votes! If we can push it up over 90%, then maybe no amount of clapping will be able to save this fairy...

We're at 77% for no god! Quick, we need more atheist votes! If we can push it up over 90%, then maybe no amount of clapping will be able to save this fairy...
If I didn't believe it was unethical, I'd use a puppet to vote.

I'm Asatru, so, I think you can understand my choice :D

no

No.

Several people seem to be BARELY meeting the three character post limit. I would think voting in the poll will suffice if that is all you are going to say. Must be spamming to get your post counts up.

No, although I'm not intolerant of those who do.

The 'no' votes do, indeed, seem to be stacking up rather high. It may have something to do with the time of day. If I may be particularly snarky, most Americans are asleep at the moment. Give it some time, and I assume things will start to even out.

Well as a firm believer in scientific method I am very firmly an agnostic. I can neither disprove nor prove the existence of God therefore I MUST be open-minded about it.

Whether I am in the theistic or atheistic leaning camp depends on the day of the week and just how much of a pain in the ass my experiments are being. (If you know anything about molecular biology you'll know that sometimes you're sure SOMEBODY is out to get you!!)

On the other hand philosophically speaking I am a great believer in Occam's Razor. That is any explanation should make no more assumptions than are needed. Adding in a God seems to be an unnecessary addition to explain why things are the way they are.

Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate

I just picked other because I had the option...

And my simple answer: no

Simple question. It's a tired debate, but I'm not looking for a debate. Just the prevailing veiw in NS.

well I said yes...

Yes, however not in the standard Abrahamic (Christian, Jewish or Islamic) sense. Depending on how you interpret that of course.

Didn't some people on this boards argue that we do not only have no evidence for gods, but also no evidence for a need for gods?

But without the concept of gods, the whole clergy would be unemployed. Isn't that some kind of "need"? :cool:

However, I don't believe in god.

chose other,

maybe there is a god, maybe there is not. Not going to worry about it because i'm only going to find out at death

Yes we Believe in God.

As a satanist, not of the mainstream commercial CoS bollocks, I do believe in a 'god' as such. I believe in the back to basics satanism in the belief that 'Saitan' (hebrewic) is the label we give to a force of nature, like wind and gravity. It isn't an anthromorpic person with horns and red skin, or a bearded peace loving white clad old man, it is a force that provides blance in the Universe, which exists within us all and we all use it in what ever actions we do, in my belief. It represents neither evil or good, but instead a combination. So, if you mean by god as something I worship singularly (I.E the Dark Force within myself, and others), then yes. P.S Don't take this that I am a satanist and thus hate christians, I actually have a friend who is a Jehova's witness, AND a celtic/wicca girlfriend. P.P.S, The Dark Force doesn't represent anything to do with Jedism, or that whole concept of jedi and sith 'forces' in that said religion. Balance and equillibrium in the world, to me, is dark and not understood yet.

N.B: I voted 'Not Sure/Other', and have specified it above.

There's no "sometimes" option.
Usually whenever something really good or really bad happens to me. Then I thank/curse God accordingly.

No i don't. I used to be some sort of satanist but grew up from that thing.

I used to be some sort of satanist but grew up from that thing.

I would like to remind you that Religious Satanism isn't a childhood fantasy, or game, to 'grow up' from, just like religious Judaism and Islam. Satanic dabbling can be, along with dabbling in Christianity and Wicca, all things that are natural as a childhood development. Try to avoid phrasing so generally.

Yes, I belive in G-d.
And, modern christianity and it's clergy should NOT be used to represent G-d, or Jesus ((Even though I don't particularly believe in Jesus)).

Why?

1. Christianity was formed in 325 at the Nicean Council, by Emporer Constantine an APOLLONIAN ((Member of the Cult of Apollo)) until the day he died, who had a distorted view of Jesus.
2. As I said before, Constantine had a distorted view of Jesus. Thanks to victory at the Milvian Bridge, Constantine viewed Jesus as the 'Christian War God' which is completely incorrect. Jesus was a firm pacifist.
3. Christianity was used as a TOOL by the Roman Emporers, who ((until Theodosius made Christianity the only legal religion)) were postly Roman pagans, in an attempt to unite the Empire, which was on it's last legs.
4. Don't trust the 'New Testament.' All those Gospels were written 40-70 years after Jesus died. None of the writers knew him. In fact, most of the gospel of Mark was found in the Qum'ran Scrolls, which never once mentioned Jesus.
5. Paul REALLY screwed up Christianity. ((Oh, by the way you 'good Catholics', Paul wasn't the first Pope, just wanted to piss you off ;) )) Many Christian laws were set down not by G-d, not by Jesus, but by this little bastard who didn't even know Jesus. Although, modern christians interpret it as the word of Jesus himself.
6. Literlaism plagues Christianity. Many are too stupid to realise most of the Bible is metaphorical, and not to be taking literally ((When it says the earth was created in 6 days, it does not mean the earth was created in 6 days)). Many atheists make this mistake, too. I say, implement theology in public schools ((if it isn't already, and if it is, it sucks.)).

So, don't judge Jesus or G-d by the corrupt, power-mongering clergy. Oh ya, the book of Deuteronomy was completely made up by humans... just to let you know...

Complex answer: Yes, but only as a man-made construct used to spread fear and enforce the policies of it's clergy. Also used to provide for the well being of said clergy.

Simple answer: no.Agreed.

I believe in God, and no I can't "prove" that there is a God. so don't ask? Okay you can ask but the answer you are going to get is that I can't prove anything.

I respect others rights not to believe. It's okay. (I guess, depending on your definition of okay);)

Yes, I belive in G-d.
And, modern christianity and it's clergy should NOT be used to represent G-d, or Jesus ((Even though I don't particularly believe in Jesus)).

Why?

1. Christianity was formed in 325 at the Nicean Council, by Emporer Constantine an APOLLONIAN ((Member of the Cult of Apollo)) until the day he died, who had a distorted view of Jesus.
2. As I said before, Constantine had a distorted view of Jesus. Thanks to victory at the Milvian Bridge, Constantine viewed Jesus as the 'Christian War God' which is completely incorrect. Jesus was a firm pacifist.
3. Christianity was used as a TOOL by the Roman Emporers, who ((until Theodosius made Christianity the only legal religion)) were postly Roman pagans, in an attempt to unite the Empire, which was on it's last legs.
4. Don't trust the 'New Testament.' All those Gospels were written 40-70 years after Jesus died. None of the writers knew him. In fact, most of the gospel of Mark was found in the Qum'ran Scrolls, which never once mentioned Jesus.
5. Paul REALLY screwed up Christianity. ((Oh, by the way you 'good Catholics', Paul wasn't the first Pope, just wanted to piss you off ;) )) Many Christian laws were set down not by G-d, not by Jesus, but by this little bastard who didn't even know Jesus. Although, modern christians interpret it as the word of Jesus himself.
6. Literlaism plagues Christianity. Many are too stupid to realise most of the Bible is metaphorical, and not to be taking literally ((When it says the earth was created in 6 days, it does not mean the earth was created in 6 days)). Many atheists make this mistake, too. I say, implement theology in public schools ((if it isn't already, and if it is, it sucks.)).

So, don't judge Jesus or G-d by the corrupt, power-mongering clergy. Oh ya, the book of Deuteronomy was completely made up by humans... just to let you know...


Not to bust your bubble or anything, but you made some major errors in your points. Don't want to start a debate, so I will just point out indisputable flaws.

First, the Catholics believe Peter, not Paul was the first pope. Not going to validate one way or another on whether he was or not. Don't want to start a debate where one is not wanted.

Second, the four main gospels we have in the Bible today are actually thought to have been written within ten years of Jesus' death. (and subsequent ressurection - a debatable point, but not one I will debate here) Matthew, Luke, and John are thought to be the words of three of the original twelve copied down by those who were following them at the time. Mark is a compelation of accounts from various members of the twelve as well as others written by Mark who has never been claimed to have ever met the Christ.

Oh, and yes.

no

Yes, I belive in G-d.
And, modern christianity and it's clergy should NOT be used to represent G-d, or Jesus ((Even though I don't particularly believe in Jesus)).

Why?

1. Christianity was formed in 325 at the Nicean Council, by Emporer Constantine an APOLLONIAN ((Member of the Cult of Apollo)) until the day he died, who had a distorted view of Jesus.
2. As I said before, Constantine had a distorted view of Jesus. Thanks to victory at the Milvian Bridge, Constantine viewed Jesus as the 'Christian War God' which is completely incorrect. Jesus was a firm pacifist.
3. Christianity was used as a TOOL by the Roman Emporers, who ((until Theodosius made Christianity the only legal religion)) were postly Roman pagans, in an attempt to unite the Empire, which was on it's last legs.
4. Don't trust the 'New Testament.' All those Gospels were written 40-70 years after Jesus died. None of the writers knew him. In fact, most of the gospel of Mark was found in the Qum'ran Scrolls, which never once mentioned Jesus.
5. Paul REALLY screwed up Christianity. ((Oh, by the way you 'good Catholics', Paul wasn't the first Pope, just wanted to piss you off ;) )) Many Christian laws were set down not by G-d, not by Jesus, but by this little bastard who didn't even know Jesus. Although, modern christians interpret it as the word of Jesus himself.
6. Literlaism plagues Christianity. Many are too stupid to realise most of the Bible is metaphorical, and not to be taking literally ((When it says the earth was created in 6 days, it does not mean the earth was created in 6 days)). Many atheists make this mistake, too. I say, implement theology in public schools ((if it isn't already, and if it is, it sucks.)).

So, don't judge Jesus or G-d by the corrupt, power-mongering clergy. Oh ya, the book of Deuteronomy was completely made up by humans... just to let you know...


Hmm, don't take this the wrong way or anything, but have you been reading Dan Brown books lately? Only a lot of this seems to be somewhat plagiarised from... either the Da Vinci Code or Angels and Demons, can't remember which one... probably both, knowing Brown.

Just like to make the point that Dan Brown is an author of fiction. The things that he says int he books are not true. Well, I suppose they might be true by a stroke of luck, but they are not verified facts or anything. (Oh, and Deception Point sucks :D)

And yes, yes I do.

YES.
And I'm tolerant of those who dont.

Hmm, don't take this the wrong way or anything, but have you been reading Dan Brown books lately? Only a lot of this seems to be somewhat plagiarised from... either the Da Vinci Code or Angels and Demons, can't remember which one... probably both, knowing Brown.

Just like to make the point that Dan Brown is an author of fiction. The things that he says int he books are not true. Well, I suppose they might be true by a stroke of luck, but they are not verified facts or anything. (Oh, and Deception Point sucks :D)

And yes, yes I do.

It was the Da Vinci Code that attacks the basis of Christianity.
Angels and Demons mainly attacks Christianity itself.
The actual plot of Angels and Demons is far better in my opinion.

Oh yes, and the Da Vinci Code is based on facts but they are twisted, exhagerated, turned into half-truths and on a few occasions complete falsified. Some people would argue that the Bible is only based on fact but I don't want to start a flame war.

I'm an atheist/agnostic by the way, I just get annoyed at the number of people who take the Da Vinci Code as complete fact just because of the disclaimer at the front.:rolleyes:

And yes, Deception Point does suck, but not as much as Digital Fortress.

do i believe in god? hmm, well, do i have any reason to? :confused:

Yes, I believe in God.

Nope. I wouldn't say there isn't a God because I don't believe you can know either way; by it's very definition it couldn't be proved in any way I'd find satisfactory. But I don't have any faith in the existence of a God so I'd say that no, I don't believe in God.

I read once that religion is a crutch for the weak-minded. It was a graffito in the library at my university. I sometimes wish I could have met the writer to ask him/her to elaborate. I believe in God, and I'd like to think myself strong-minded and able to reason.

No. there was no God, there is no God and there will be no God

Do you believe in Quasfsajfasjka?

Do you believe in Quasfsajfasjka?
I have no idea. Who or what is it?

Do you believe in Quasfsajfasjka?
moi?
nein

Olara']I read once that religion is a crutch for the weak-minded. It was a graffito in the library at my university. I sometimes wish I could have met the writer to ask him/her to elaborate. I believe in God, and I'd like to think myself strong-minded and able to reason.
That would be ventura ... my states ex gov lol

Olara']I have no idea. Who or what is it?

I dunno. Some ultimate thing. In that respect, only slightly less clearly defined than God.

That would be ventura ... my states ex gov lol
No matter where I go or what I do, I will always be grateful to Jesse "The Body" Ventura, and the voters who put him in office...sure, he was something of a dingbat, but for the first time in my life I got more than a blank stare when I told people I was from Minnesota. Instead of "Durr, Minnesota? Isn't that one of them states in the middle?" I would get, "Oh yeah, you guys got that wacky wrestler for a governor, right?"

At least it's something!

*music*

I belive in love

*dances on the air*

It was a Diana Krall song I once heard...

Nope, I believe God does not exist.
But I'm tolerant of those who do.

No.

Olara']I read once that religion is a crutch for the weak-minded. It was a graffito in the library at my university. I sometimes wish I could have met the writer to ask him/her to elaborate. I believe in God, and I'd like to think myself strong-minded and able to reason.

I know how you feel when non-Christians say that. But Yes I do believe in God and have an awsome relationship with him, and I try to be tolerant of those who don't believe.

I know how you feel when non-Christians say that. But Yes I do believe in God and have an awsome relationship with him, and I try to be tolerant of those who don't believe.

Same here. Our God is an awesome God!:D

And I am not weak-minded, just weak. Glad to have such a great crutch!:cool:

I know, our flesh is weak and we sin, but God forgives us and always will love us. Def. The best Crutch I've ever had! Agreed Ruloah.

I'm not sure whether God exists or not. I think belief is over-rated- the belief of a God and the belief of the non-existance of God.

I don't know and I stopped caring. I now think it's more important to be a good person than just a good religious person

I believe in God.

Yes

I don't know and I stopped caring. I now think it's more important to be a good person than just a good religious person

Hear hear!

I believe in Him. I'm tolerant of those who don't though. I try to stay open-minded. We'll see when we die who was right and who has the better relationship with Him.

Yes I believe.

Regards,

JMayo

do i believe in god? hmm, well, do i have any reason to? :confused:

I don't know. Do you?

I'm pretty sure that's a question only you can answer.

Oh, and, to the original question, Yes.

Same here. Our God is an awesome God!:D

And I am not weak-minded, just weak. Glad to have such a great crutch!:cool:
And I am glad can stand alone

Its an awsome feeling knowing you dont have to make things up just to get ya thew life

Its an awsome feeling knowing you dont have to make things up just to get ya thew life
We don't make things up. We believe. None of what we say is original material. It's mostly in the bible. And then the rest is in the Catechism.

My answer was "Other"

I believe there is no "GOD", however, to put it bluntly, weird sh*t happens, so there's a huge ammount that's outside the direct methods of human detection. There may be godS, but considering how chaotic things are I doubt there would be even THAT much organization.

So I'm going to go along with there being a massive collection of entities beyond our ability to percieve normally. Perhaps we're seperate, perhaps we turn into them on death, perhaps we simply inhabit our bodies for the duration for a purpose, either made by ourselves during our lives or beforehand that we intentionally forget...

Wheee, this is kinda new-agey. Who wants to go for a drink?

P.S. To those people who talk about this whole "relationship with god" how is this relationship? Like... tea and crumpet on Sunday? Movies on Friday? Tuesday-night dinner-guest? Saturday-night club&shag? Friends, lovers, what?

Of course there is a decidedly un-human, superior being present in both our psyche and universe. Philosophers who care to debate the issue, numerous of whom were deemed un-christian, affirm and assert the presence of the divine, and moreover, does anyone truly believe science can truly proffer explanation for all the machinations of life?

I believe in God. I do not think that God "loves" humans, as the Christians believe. I think that "love" does not accurately describe how God relates to us. (My notion of the higher power is probably closer to that of the Tao, but I still believe in a lot of the Catholic doctrine, and I am aware I will get a lot of crap for this, but I don't care). I do not think religion is a sign of weakness, and I think those who feel compelled to force their religion or atheism on others are unsure of their own beliefs.

Interesting notion:

Do you truly care for the ants that cavort beneath your feet?

Not unless you need psychological help, or like to burn them.

If we accept God as being present, and inherently superior to ourselves, why shoud he care for us? He shouldn't.

We don't make things up. We believe. None of what we say is original material. It's mostly in the bible. And then the rest is in the Catechism.
Just because you as an individual did not write the material does not mean it was not made up

P.S. To those people who talk about this whole "relationship with god" how is this relationship? Like... tea and crumpet on Sunday? Movies on Friday? Tuesday-night dinner-guest? Saturday-night club&shag? Friends, lovers, what?

A relationship with God, is difficult for me to describe,and I will probably come off as a religious wacko, but my relationship with god, my "knowledge" of God, is a sort of understanding of nature. I "know" God in a very empathetic sense, in that what I experience, he experiences (Somewhat like Mercer, in Philip K. Dick'sDo Androids Dream of Eletric Sheep Again, this is my personal relationship. Some people pray regularly, and have that as their relationship with God. Your relationship, or lack thereof, is whatever you make it to be.

Your relationship, or lack thereof, is whatever you make it to be.

So therefore a creation of your own mind.

I would have to Yes, but not in the monotheistic view point.

Religion is like a gem. Each religion is just a facet of that gem. No one is wrong. Everyone choses to worship what want. So long as they are kind, just and moral they have nothing to fear upon their death.

To those people who talk about this whole "relationship with god" how is this relationship? Like... tea and crumpet on Sunday? Movies on Friday? Tuesday-night dinner-guest? Saturday-night club&shag? Friends, lovers, what?


It is kind of a complex mix of things. There are many different way people treat it, but the most important aspect of the relationship is love, sacrificial love, the kind of love you are willing to do anything for to the complete and utter denial of yourself. Often times, I treat it like the relationship I would have with a boss at work who is also a very old, close, dear friend. This boss sometimes gives me tasks I don't want to do, but I know he is looking out for me and has nothing but the best for me in mind. Well, that was about the best way I could explain it to you without typing a short book. Enjoy.

Interesting notion:

Do you truly care for the ants that cavort beneath your feet?

Not unless you need psychological help, or like to burn them.

If we accept God as being present, and inherently superior to ourselves, why shoud he care for us? He shouldn't.
Aha! You have just hit on a central theme in Christianity. God shouldn't care about us. That's what makes it such a great thing that he does.

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God - Romans 3:23
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. - Romans 5:8

I love it!

So therefore a creation of your own mind.
Thats a cynical and somewhat disrespectful way to put it. I have beliefs based on what others have pioneered. But my beliefs are not created to delude myself into thinking that I should do what some priest tells me to do (which is why I am not really a Catholic anymore). My relationship with God is not for the sake of hallucinating divine experiences. Thats what LSD is for. My relationship with God is a sort of vantage point into my self. I use it like I use the I Ching. I use my relationship as a basis of reflection and deriving purpose in an otherwise meaningless existence.

I would have to Yes, but not in the monotheistic view point.

Religion is like a gem. Each religion is just a facet of that gem. No one is wrong. Everyone choses to worship what want. So long as they are kind, just and moral they have nothing to fear upon their death.

You sound like Joel Olsten on Larry King Live :)

But what qualifies/quantifies what is just, kind, and moral? Is it popular vote, common consensus or just how you "feel" when you get out of bed?

Your logic is flawed.

I beleive in the God of the Bible, creator of heaven and earth, who sent his son to die for the sins of mankind so that we could be reconciled back to him.

I pity and pray for those who dont believe.

Olara']Aha! You have just hit on a central theme in Christianity. God shouldn't care about us. That's what makes it such a great thing that he does.

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God - Romans 3:23
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. - Romans 5:8

I love it!
That or we just delude ourself into thinking he does ... but whatever you need to make it through your day

I pity and pray for those who dont believe.
As we pity some of thoes that do

Olara']Aha! You have just hit on a central theme in Christianity. God shouldn't care about us. That's what makes it such a great thing that he does.

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God - Romans 3:23
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. - Romans 5:8

I love it!

My word, you truly are indoctrinated. God, or the divine, is utetrly indifferent, why should he care, we are as insignificant as the passing of days to him, multidunous and loathsome. What scientifically incontrovertible evidence of the benevolence and intervention of the divine can you proffer?

I do believe that there is an afterlife, but am more inlclined towards a purely spiritual realm, or a pantheonic faith and afterlife, which is decidely pagan and hellenistic.

Yes: I believe in The God and The Goddess - hmm, that would make me a Wiccan then.

It is to be noted that the "God" worshipped by ALL religions - Abrahamic and otherwise - is The God, you just don't realise it.
And most religions demonised The Goddess, cast Her down and installed the less powerful God in Her place as Lord of the Universe.

But hey: we all have bad days.

You sound like Joel Olsten on Larry King Live :)

But what qualifies/quantifies what is just, kind, and moral? Is it popular vote, common consensus or just how you "feel" when you get out of bed?

Your logic is flawed.

I beleive in the God of the Bible, creator of heaven and earth, who sent his son to die for the sins of mankind so that we could be reconciled back to him.

I pity and pray for those who dont believe.

And you are entitled to believe that. That is your view and no one can change. You may hold a somewhat narrow view on the matter. It is not my place to judge because I will not be lowered to that level.

You "pity" those who dont? Tsk tsk tsk. Sounds like judging. Judge not lest ye be judged. So you may think what you want and everyone else can think what they want, if they chose to regonize it at all.

I pity and pray for those who dont believe.

My word, please, I implore you not to. Do not waste your prayers, nor your pity.

No matter where I go or what I do, I will always be grateful to Jesse "The Body" Ventura, and the voters who put him in office...sure, he was something of a dingbat, but for the first time in my life I got more than a blank stare when I told people I was from Minnesota. Instead of "Durr, Minnesota? Isn't that one of them states in the middle?" I would get, "Oh yeah, you guys got that wacky wrestler for a governor, right?"

At least it's something!
Yeah and all in all he was not that bad ... I was suprized lol

As we pity some of thoes that do


Out of curiosity, did you have a bad experience with religion? Did someone try to force a religion upon you?

A part of my religious development involved going to the Church "St. Vincent Ferrer". I heard later that he was "martyred" trying to incite an uprising during the Spanish Inquisition. he was murderer. That is why I have for a long time shied away from Chrisitanity

Yes: I believe in The God and The Goddess - hmm, that would make me a Wiccan then.

It is to be noted that the "God" worshipped by ALL religions - Abrahamic and otherwise - is The God, you just don't realise it.
And most religions demonised The Goddess, cast Her down and installed the less powerful God in Her place as Lord of the Universe.

But hey: we all have bad days.

I've always thought of God as being asexual, and try to avoid calling God "him" or "her".

My word, you truly are indoctrinated. God, or the divine, is utetrly indifferent, why should he care, we are as insignificant as the passing of days to him, multidunous and loathsome. What scientifically incontrovertible evidence of the benevolence and intervention of the divine can you proffer?

I do believe that there is an afterlife, but am more inlclined towards a purely spiritual realm, or a pantheonic faith and afterlife, which is decidely pagan and hellenistic.

What scientifically incontrovertible evidence of the benevolence and intervention of the divine can you offer that he doesnt? :)

Why should God care? Because God is love, and God created mankind out of love, a love so deep an pure that he sacrified his only divine Son, that in accepting that sacrifice for our sins, we should be conciled to him for eternity.

Image that you had everything you possibly imagine, and your father told you give it all up and , cripple yourself, and go and be ridiculed, beaten, hated, spit on, and killed for a people who will deny your very existance and sacrifice. Would you do it? I think not. So as far as the matter of if God cares.... I'd say he cares too much. :)

Out of curiosity, did you have a bad experience with religion? Did someone try to force a religion upon you?

A part of my religious development involved going to the Church "St. Vincent Ferrer". I heard later that he was "martyred" trying to incite an uprising during the Spanish Inquisition. he was murderer. That is why I have for a long time shied away from Chrisitanity
Yes I have a very very bad history with religion ... but most of my replies are just cases of replying in kind

So many religious people come in and openly "rejoice" in their faith and pitty thoes that dont, its rather anoying when it really offeres nothing of substance arguing from that holier then thou attitude

I just felt like responding in kind to their watered down arguements in kind for once, tired of taking the high road after 11k+ posts

What scientifically incontrovertible evidence of the benevolence and intervention of the divine can you offer that he doesnt? :)

Why should God care? Because God is love, and God created mankind out of love, a love so deep an pure that he sacrified his only divine Son, that in accepting that sacrifice for our sins, we should be conciled to him for eternity.

Image that you had everything you possibly imagine, and your father told you give it all up and , cripple yourself, and go and be ridiculed, beaten, hated, spit on, and killed for a people who will deny your very existance and sacrifice. Would you do it? I think not. So as far as the matter of if God cares.... I'd say he cares too much. :)

Firstly, learn to write:mad:

God is not love, love is a human emotion, therefore God is, upon such logic, a being of human invention.

My word, you truly are indoctrinated. God, or the divine, is utetrly indifferent, why should he care, we are as insignificant as the passing of days to him, multidunous and loathsome. What scientifically incontrovertible evidence of the benevolence and intervention of the divine can you proffer?

I do believe that there is an afterlife, but am more inlclined towards a purely spiritual realm, or a pantheonic faith and afterlife, which is decidely pagan and hellenistic.
Peace, friend, I'm not indoctrinated. I was a pretty happy agnostic until I realized how purposeless the life I was leading was. Then I accepted forgiveness from God, he took away my guilt, and he gave me something to live for. I'm glad I made the choice I did.

Now, as I said, God shouldn't care about you or me or anyone. But the things I've experienced have led me to believe that he does care about me. Now that's far from "scientifically incontrovertible" proof that he cares about anyone else, but it works for me. Since I know who I was before I was a Christian, and since I know God cares for me now and cared for me then, I believe he does care for everyone. I try to live my life accordingly.

Now, a few things: 1) The fact that God is under no obligation to care about us is not proof that he doesn't. 2) Just because we don't care about ants is no proof that God doesn't care about us. 3) I can't give you "scientifically incontrovertible" proof that God cares and intervenes, but what scientifically incontrovertible evidence can you give to me that God doesn't care and intervene?

And you are entitled to believe that. That is your view and no one can change. You may hold a somewhat narrow view on the matter. It is not my place to judge because I will not be lowered to that level.

You "pity" those who dont? Tsk tsk tsk. Sounds like judging. Judge not lest ye be judged. So you may think what you want and everyone else can think what they want, if they chose to regonize it at all.


Its not quite a matter of Judging, but a matter of what God's Word states is the end destination for non-beleivers. My opinion can neither damn you or save you... Its God's that counts :)

My word, you truly are indoctrinated. God, or the divine, is utetrly indifferent, why should he care, we are as insignificant as the passing of days to him, multidunous and loathsome. What scientifically incontrovertible evidence of the benevolence and intervention of the divine can you proffer?

I do believe that there is an afterlife, but am more inlclined towards a purely spiritual realm, or a pantheonic faith and afterlife, which is decidely pagan and hellenistic.

I would ask what evidence He does not care do you have? You say we are insignificant as passing days to Him, but have the two of you had a conversation in which the Lord said to pike off? I would say you really can't argue conclusively one way or the other. That is the nature of faith, man...or woman...whichever...

Other: Apathetic Agnostic

Firstly, learn to write:mad:

God is not love, love is a human emotion, therefore God is, upon such logic, a being of human invention.

Love is not an emotion, its a decision and an activity. :)

You are confusing it with the human emotion of infatuation.

Yes I have a very very bad history with religion ... but most of my replies are just cases of replying in kind

So many religious people come in and openly "rejoice" in their faith and pitty thoes that dont, its rather anoying when it really offeres nothing of substance arguing from that holier then thou attitude


I've had the same experience and I, honestly,respect the path you are taking. This book I saw (satire, of course) once said something like, "True Christians go to church every Saturday, Sunday, and whenever else the neighbors are watching."

I would ask what evidence He does not care do you have? You say we are insignificant as passing days to Him, but have the two of you had a conversation in which the Lord said to pike off?
snip
Nah he does even less then that ... he does not answer

I would ask what evidence He does not care do you have? You say we are insignificant as passing days to Him, but have the two of you had a conversation in which the Lord said to pike off? I would say you really can't argue conclusively one way or the other. That is the nature of faith, man...or woman...whichever...

Faith truly is a persoal affair, it just seems irrational to assume that a deity with omnipotent control would be concerned by the plights of a few beings within one galaxy in the universe.

Firstly, learn to write:mad:

God is not love, love is a human emotion, therefore God is, upon such logic, a being of human invention.

How can you argue that love is human? If God created everything, hypothetically, then He obviously knew something of love. It didn't just spring up out of no where.

I've had the same experience and I, honestly,respect the path you are taking. This book I saw (satire, of course) once said something like, "True Christians go to church every Saturday, Sunday, and whenever else the neighbors are watching."
As I only make it to church when I absolutely have to for a wedding or funeral, I cant stand being in those places

Love is not an emotion, its a decision and an activity. :)

You are confusing it with the human emotion of infatuation.

So is love an utterly inhuman emotion that afflicts the trees and the rocks? Not to my knowledge, no.

All emotion is a human invention, a means by which we may allude to our inherent feelings.

How can you argue that love is human? If God created everything, hypothetically, then He obviously knew something of love. It didn't just spring up out of no where.
Hmmm by that logic god created evil as well

Intresting, in most arguements people of faith cant seem to admit that god had anything to do with the existance of evil

Now we know the cause
God

As I only make it to church when I absolutely have to for a wedding or funeral, I cant stand being in those places

Common misconception.. true church isnt a building. Its a gathering of beleivers.

Faith truly is a persoal affair, it just seems irrational to assume that a deity with omnipotent control would be concerned by the plights of a few beings within one galaxy in the universe.

How do you know he didn't only create us as his one set of beings with souls in the entirety of the universe? It seems like a pretty unfortunate waste of space, but it is His universe. I don't pretend to understand the reasoning for God, or the reasoning for His love for us. I think we are pretty unlovable.

How can you argue that love is human? If God created everything, hypothetically, then He obviously knew something of love. It didn't just spring up out of no where.

Nor did the bible...:rolleyes:

Common misconception.. true church isnt a building. Its a gathering of beleivers.
I cant go in the building (that is what I was referencing) ... too many bad memories

All emotion is a human invention, a means by which we may allude to our inherent feelings.
Thus animals dont feel fear or anger, for example?

Hmmm by that logic god created evil as well

Intresting, in most arguements people of faith cant seem to admit that god had anything to do with the existance of evil

Now we know the cause
God

God did not create evil. Evil is a result of disobedience of God's will and purpose for mankind.

God did not create evil. Evil is a result of disobedience of God's will and purpose for mankind.
But as stated god created everything

If it exists either directly or indirectly he is the source of it ... evil included

Thus animals dont feel fear or anger, for example?
something simmilar I am sure ... but some of it is personification as well

How do you know he didn't only create us as his one set of beings with souls in the entirety of the universe? It seems like a pretty unfortunate waste of space, but it is His universe. I don't pretend to understand the reasoning for God, or the reasoning for His love for us. I think we are pretty unlovable.

In short, due to the presence of water, and by extension, life upon the moon of Saturn, and its utter improbability.

God's love for us extends to his utter capricious indifference, he ought not to care, nor does he. Why do Tsunami's occur? Or Hurricanes? Or Earthquakes? Certainly not an implication of free will, nor is it endemic of an compassionatem, benevolent God.

Hmmm by that logic god created evil as well

Intresting, in most arguements people of faith cant seem to admit that god had anything to do with the existance of evil

Now we know the cause
God

Actually, I have most commonly understood evil as something that bears the lack of God. In the same manner we define hell, the absence of God. Evil is not something created by God, but something bearing the lack of his touch. An evil action is an action devoid of Godliness. Sin is really all the same, actions that are not Godly.

God knows of evil, but He is not of it. I have heard it argued, that, like God, evil has also always been.

Nah he does even less then that ... he does not answer

How often do you call to him? It is a two way street that prayer after all.

God did not create evil. Evil is a result of disobedience of God's will and purpose for mankind.

Indeed, an omnipotent, benevolent deity afords us the capacity to free will, yet imposes upon its use, and stands by in indiffernce when we fall. Why does he not forgive Adam and Eve?

Actually, I have most commonly understood evil as something that bears the lack of God. In the same manner we define hell, the absence of God. Evil is not something created by God, but something bearing the lack of his touch. An evil action is an action devoid of Godliness. Sin is really all the same, actions that are not Godly.

God knows of evil, but He is not of it. I have heard it argued, that, like God, evil has also always been.
But god is omni-present

is there anywhere that lacks his touch or presence?

But god is omni-present

is there anywhere that lacks his touch or presence?

New Orleans?

How often do you call to him? It is a two way street that prayer after all.
Every night for two years between 4th and late 6th grade when my priest was molesting me ... no answer

New Orleans?
I was thinking more of hell but :fluffle:

Every night for two years between 4th and late 6th grade when my priest was molesting me ... no answer

So does that mean that God doesn't care, doesn't exist, or that based on a horrible, traumatic experience you believe he does not. God answers prayer in many ways, and sometimes there is purpose behind continued suffering. I lost almost every close member of my family over the process of two years. It was a time of horrible suffering, but it put me where I am today. It tempered me. Sorry if this is a touchy subject.

But god is omni-present

is there anywhere that lacks his touch or presence?

Hell

Hell
Well see there is some place he isent

So he is not omni-present

Yes, I do. Is that a problem?

God LET Satan create Hell to punish the evil guys (people with no). It's complicated. I don't even understand it...I'm not saying y'all are evil, btw. I am...:sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper:

So does that mean that God doesn't care, doesn't exist, or that based on a horrible, traumatic experience you believe he does not. God answers prayer in many ways, and sometimes there is purpose behind continued suffering. I lost almost every close member of my family over the process of two years. It was a time of horrible suffering, but it put me where I am today. It tempered me. Sorry if this is a touchy subject.
What a nicely worded cop out

I personally find it more likely that there is no plan then someone who is supposed to be all powerful and all loving made me suffer through it to accomplish something he has the power to do without all the pain.

But as stated god created everything

If it exists either directly or indirectly he is the source of it ... evil included

Ya, in short. He created choice, to have a choice you must have two paths. This is not something most christians, or church-goers, will usually say I believe God is good, and to have choice other than good, he had to create something not good. Unless of course anyone wants to challenge free will.

One thing that I can not understand is this jewel theory of faith facets. Seems to me that it implies much more strongly that all faiths are wrong, as opposed to right. Chisritians will tell you that christianity is the only true faith, anyone who says otherwise, by definition, disagrees. What really seperates this from any other "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" faith, other than obscure wording.

Oh and I am a christian, though a bit unorthodox.

Ya, in short. He created choice, to have a choice you must have two paths. This is not something most christians, or church-goers, will usually say I believe God is good, and to have choice other than good, he had to create something not good. Unless of course anyone wants to challenge free will.


Freedom of choice != freewill

I dont have the choice to breath under watter unassisted ... does that mean I do not have freewill?

you can still have the ability of free will without the means to act on it

Freedom of choice != freewill

I dont have the choice to breath under watter unassisted ... does that mean I do not have freewill?

you can still have the ability of free will without the means to act on it
Bad example, you can breath underwater. You just won't be breathing air. Freedom of choice also means you have to suffer the consequences of your actions.

*bounce*

Religion is really a nice concept. It effectively keeps people operating under a moral code, even if they have none of their own. However, for those of us with the ability to make our own moral code, religion is kind of... useless, I guess. Religion has some nice guidlines and some stupid ones. All belief systems do.

Olara']I read once that religion is a crutch for the weak-minded. It was a graffito in the library at my university. I sometimes wish I could have met the writer to ask him/her to elaborate. I believe in God, and I'd like to think myself strong-minded and able to reason.

I believe i can elaborate pretty well. The writer of the "graffito" probably meant this:

Why did the Romans create the god Atlas?
Because they didnt know how the earth "stayed up"

Why did the Incans create the god Quetzcoatl?
Because they didnt know how they got to their lands

Why did the greeks create the god Apollo?
Because they didnt know how the sun came to be. Interestingly, too, he is the god of medicine who "taught man medicine".

Are you seeing a pattern here...lets continue on....

Why did christians create THEIR god?
Because they dont know how the earth got here; and they wanna lean on someone when they're down / angry / really happy. They wanna say "well...it was gods plan then... If something goes wrong, and "Thank you god, it was all you!" if something goes really well. They also wanna believe in him so that they can trust in his promise of heaven.

And thats just one religion.

So, I think now you understand.

What a nicely worded cop out

I personally find it more likely that there is no plan then someone who is supposed to be all powerful and all loving made me suffer through it to accomplish something he has the power to do without all the pain.

If humans were capable of learning without pain, that would certainly work.

In the time I have existed on this earth, I find it more likely that there is rhyme and reason to everything. The horrible depravity in this world I see as a lack of seeking for God's guidance. My faith drives every part of my being. I am nothing without it. My career path, where I live, all of it I have done for God. I admit it does color the way I see everything, it couldn't not to use the double negative. It has probably brought me far more pain than pleasure, but what I lack in pleasure I make up for in joy. I know that what I say probably won't matter to you, but it is still something I feel obligated to relate to you. When I pray, you will be on my list.

God gave us alot of emotions, sometimes they make us weak and sin, like hate, lust,selfishness, but he gave us the perfect emotion of love. Once you think about it how can love be described. Hate can be described, as disliking someone greatly, lust is the physical attraction to someone in an unhealthy way. But Love can't be explained. It is totally different than liking someone. Love is so perfect we cannot even begin to make it out. Sometimes we don't even know why we love something or someone. I can't really give an explanation but I just know it feels really good, but when someone does a sin to shatter that love between you and someone it hurts alot more. God loves us, but we trash his love for us when we sin but he always keeps loving us no matter what we do once we accept him and ask for forgiveness and welcome him into our hearts. Wow, I just blurted that out, but It felt like I was compelled to post this.

Nope. Religion causes too many problems. Even dating back to the crusades and earlier, people commited the most heinous atrocities in the name of their deity. The crusaders themselves operated under the belief that since God was on their side any thing they did in the holy land was permitted, even encouraged. That and bible-thumpers seem to go out of their way to annoy me.

Do I believe in G/god(s)?

No. Not in the regular sense.

First of all the question must beg the question what does one mean with 'god' relating to the cold hard physical world or: What makes G/god(s) a G/god?

Secondly the question implies that there is a quality that differentiates G/god(s) from a mere technologically advanced being: There is dvinity - While, like A.C. Clarke once said: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

Thirdly g/God(s) abilities must be in a level that are either above the capability of a society/individual that has reached a sufficent technological advancement* or otherwise completely ex-reality: Completely in the background and not observable or existing in any physical sense.

*note: creating universes might not belong to this category. Molding matter at will probably does not belong to this category

Didn't The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy kill god with logic?

Yes. I'm a hardcore right-wing evangelist gamer hacker metalhead (weird combo huh?). Power to the people (as long as they aren't too stupid to vote)!

:cool: :mp5: :sniper: :D

and to respond to one of the above posts...I enjoy religious atrocities while fully believing what I'm doing is good.If I had my way the middle east would be a nuclear wasteland, and all ME states would fall under a new principality of Israel.
Christians and Jews baby!

Yes.

I have an intimate relationship with someone/something a lot of you might consider "God". But it's more of a personal thing. Well, entirely personal, really. "God" is a tired old man sitting by a fire. And he is the fire, too.

The fire is a gift. For us.

to keep it simple, i beleive in god, but have no faith in him.

to keep it simple, i beleive in god, but have no faith in him.
The God as a Jerk philosophy? I used to live by that, but then I decided that there was really very little point in it because it was based off of childhood uncertainties.
Now I follow the God As Something I Don't Ask Questions about theory, which holds that it is much better just to shut your mouth in case some higher power really has tapped your phone lines.

I have an intimate relationship with someone/something a lot of you might consider "God". But it's more of a personal thing. Well, entirely personal, really. "God" is a tired old man sitting by a fire. And he is the fire, too.

The fire is a gift. For us.
That's beautiful.

Baptized Episcopalian.
Became Atheist (teens).
Became Agnostic (twenties).
Became aware of Divinity (after realizing that the effect music has on me has no evolutionary purpose whatsoever, among other things) but never claimed to have its phone number (late twenties).
Am now a Deist-Taoist, mostly because it's fun to say (thirties).

JH

I do not believe in a single, all powerful god. Rather, I believe in some of the Celtic and Egyptian pantheon, none of which I believe are anywhere near omnipotence.

I believe in a god. The god I believe in is benevolent, but not omnipotent. I don't believe that god has a body, only a soul. I believe that god knows everything about what has happened and what is happening now, but I don't believe that god knows every single thing that's going to happen in the future, though through understanding the past and the present, I think he/she/it has a better idea than we do what's going to happen.

I don't believe in being damned to some hell place for all eternity, because a benevolent god, which I believe in, would save everyone.

I believe in a universal, multifaceted, androgynous but female as I can best relate to "her", non-Abrahamic deity.

no... simply because i dont believe that any of the "signs" truly point in the direction of god, but i do beleive that you should still follow the lessons religion teaches us no matter if your an athiest or not.

Yes, although I rather suspect He doesn't believe in me.

I believe in God, because I have seen too many 'coincidences' for there to be no such thing as a higher power.

I have an intimate relationship with someone/something a lot of you might consider "God". But it's more of a personal thing. Well, entirely personal, really. "God" is a tired old man sitting by a fire. And he is the fire, too.

The fire is a gift. For us.
That's beautiful.
Thank you, Willamena. It's from a very powerful vision I had last spring, actually, although I'm avoiding using the familiar archetypes here. Suffice it to say I knew just who the old man was when I encountered him, and knew the archetype of the fire as well - who also communicated with me (actually talking over the words of the old man, which made it difficult at first).

Sorry to get all Astral Annie about it, but there you are. Thanks for the kind words, W.

God hates Christians.
This is so true. Christians always have the worst karma.

This is so true. Christians always have the worst karma.

It's true! They always get socks and/or underwear at Chirstmas ... think about it!

This is so true. Christians always have the worst karma.

:confused: really... do I?

actually I don't believe in karma... so is none bad?

Agnostic, but ceratinly not an Abrahamic one.

Welllllll, I could write a book about religion and god.

In fact, I am... It will probably never be finished, but a PhD thesis version will be around in a little bit less than a decade.

I'm tired, so you will have to wait until that paper gets written. I have too much to say about this.

So all I have to say is, I do not believe in any religion or god. Religions were invented to explain that which could not be explained, once humankind was able to have sentient thoughts. I remember, as a child, creating stories to explain things I didn't understand, how things worked. Like the TV having a whole bunch of little people in it. It is that same idea that spawned the idea of the divine, so many eons ago. It has evolved immensely since then. Now it is lazy-man's science. "I don't know how this works. Must be god."

I am much too tired to keep going.



I will say, the thing that amuses me the most is how people who believe in and love god will say that they cannot explain why or how god is, that they don't dare say what god's plan is, that the divine is not meant to be understood by humankind -- but somehow they are absolutly certain that god loves them, and they don't hesitate to tell people what god doesn't like.

If I were an omnipotent being, and insignificant people were speaking for me, I'd do a whole heck of a lot of smiting.

"Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled on behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy."
- Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914)

I believe in God.
Jesus is the Best!
I coud have said something mean but i just didnt have the heart.
Yes Jesus is the best.

really... do I?

actually I don't believe in karma... so is none bad?
Yes

It's true! They always get socks and/or underwear at Chirstmas ... think about it!

*shakes head* how many Christians do you know... I don't get socks/underwear... I'm betting on a limited sample :D

Does that shock or surprise you? I love Jesus. I want to touch his face and tell him everything's ok.Eeew, yuck. I bet it's all dry and leathery.

i believe in an intelligence behind existence,but i wont slap a church label on myself just to fit in.

simple answer=yes

Just 33.3% of people believe in God. My work here is nearly done...

Just 33.3% of people believe in God. My work here is nearly done...
All you have done is made my job easier for all those people that must die.

I do not believe in a single, all powerful god. Rather, I believe in some of the Celtic and Egyptian pantheon, none of which I believe are anywhere near omnipotence.

cool, the celtic pantheon for me, but more scottish names than irish or welsh

[QUOTE=Koroka]When it says the earth was created in 6 days, it does not mean the earth was created in 6 days. [QUOTE]

you sound like my RE teacher in year eight, trust me not a good thing.

[QUOTE=Koroka]When it says the earth was created in 6 days, it does not mean the earth was created in 6 days. [QUOTE]

you sound like my RE teacher in year eight, trust me not a good thing.
So what are you trying to say?

So what are you trying to say?

that its not a good thing to sound like my RE teacher

Gee, this is a new thread topic.
:rolleyes:

So all I have to say is, I do not believe in any religion or god. Religions were invented to explain that which could not be explained, once humankind was able to have sentient thoughts. I remember, as a child, creating stories to explain things I didn't understand, how things worked. Like the TV having a whole bunch of little people in it. It is that same idea that spawned the idea of the divine, so many eons ago. It has evolved immensely since then. Now it is lazy-man's science. "I don't know how this works. Must be god."

My opinion exactly.

organised religion is the route of all evil.

organised religion is the route of all evil.

Um, pardon the perdantic question, but do you mean to make a distinction between root and route, because the context of your post changes depending on which one you mean...

Bad example, you can breath underwater. You just won't be breathing air. Freedom of choice also means you have to suffer the consequences of your actions.
Ok I wish to have superstrength without medical modification
I dont have that option

Does that mean I dont have free will?

Yes. I'm a hardcore right-wing evangelist gamer hacker metalhead (weird combo huh?). Power to the people (as long as they aren't too stupid to vote)!
snip

With all thoes gun smilies I am betting script kiddie

This is so true. Christians always have the worst karma.

What's really, really strange is that I went to bed 2 hours before these posts were made. Either I'm sleep posting or someone knows my password.

I admire people who can remain atheistic in the face of all the stupidity spewed at them by religious people. I also admire people who can remain religious in the face of all the stupidity spewed at them by atheists. And I admire agnostics who can remain agnostic in the face of me poking them with sticks. They do make some amusing noises, though.

Do I believe in the Abrahamic God? Not really, no. Do I believe in some kind of power or powers that may or may not be collectively or individually 'sentient' that are beyond current or even possible human understanding that may occasionally interact with some humans despite that? Sure.

Personally, I have a fairly inclusive polytheistic view on things. I have no problem with the idea of <insert deity> existing, but I have no reason or desire to seek a relationship with any deity or power at the current time.

Short answer: Yeah, sorta.

Gee, this is a new thread topic.
:rolleyes:
Wow, it's not like I mentioned that in the first post...:rolleyes: