NationStates Jolt Archive

First you have this (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051102/ap_on_re_eu/france_rioting) going on in France:

PARIS - French President Jacques Chirac, intervening after six nights of rioting in housing projects outside Paris, called Wednesday for calm and said authorities will use a firm hand to curtail what may become a "dangerous situation."

The violence, sparked initially by the deaths of two teenagers, has exposed the despair, anger and deep-rooted criminality in the poor suburbs, where police hesitate to venture and which have proved fertile terrain for Islamic extremists.

...In unrest Tuesday night, rioters burned 228 cars throughout France, police said. Some 153 of those were in the Seine-Saint-Denis area north of Paris, where the rioting began.

The rioting began Thursday in the northeastern suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois after the electrocutions of two teenagers hiding in a power substation because they believed police were chasing them.

Officials have said police were not pursuing the boys, aged 17 and 15.

The sheer scale of it is nothing short of astonishing, it seems: (http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/10/31/news/france.php)

Sarkozy says that violence in French suburbs is a daily fact of life.

Since the start of the year, 9,000 police cars have been stoned and, each night, 20 to 40 cars are torched, Sarkozy said in an interview last week with the newspaper Le Monde.

Then there's something very similar (http://viking-observer.blogspot.com/2005/10/war-in-france-war-in-denmark.html) going on in Denmark, apparently (granted, this is a self-translation posted on a blog, but I was told by at least one person speaking the language that it is accurate enough):

Rosenhøj Mall has several nights in a row been the scene of the worst riots in Århus for years. "This area belongs to us", the youths proclaim. Sunday evening saw a new arson attack.

Their words sound like a clear declaration of war on the Danish society. Police must stay out. The area belongs to immigrants.

Four youths sit on the wall in Rosenhøj Mall sunday afternoon, calling themselves spokesmen for the groups, that three nights in a row have ravaged and tried to burn down the restaurant and other stores.

Around the parking lot, cars with youngsters from the immigrant community are swarming, and many are walking around, greeting each others with a sense of victory after the worst riots in Århus in years.

Every night 30-40 youts took part, especially immigrants.

Only two were arrested.

That was a victory.

"We knew, you would be coming. We are spokesmen", said a young man with a black knitted hood on his head, when JP (Jyllands-Posten - Henrik) visited Rosenhøj Mall sunday. He was angry. Very angry. Behind him the pub Hot Shot has scars after the attacks with cobble stones, and the stores along the parking lot besides the small mall have their windows covered with adhesive tape in a spiderweb pattern.

Four hours after the short meeting, Falck (Danish privat emergency service - Henrik) sent a group of fire engines under police escort to the nursery Kjærslund on Søndervangs Allé, right across the street from Rosenhøj Mall.

Gasoline through the window

A window had been shattered at the back of the house, and the fire had been blazing, apparently because of gasoline poured onto the floor, then lit.

Falck stopped on Viby Square, a couple kilometers from the site of the arson attack, waiting for the police to turn up so they could be escorted to the nursery. Two nights earlier, other Falck-employees were threatened, when they were covering up broken shop-windows.

Cobblestones had smashed the shop-windows from one end of the mall to the other. The police wrote in their report saturday night, that the youths had their stones with them in bags, when they came to Rosenhøj.

Cobblestones against bakery.

Saturday morning a 16-year-old somali boy was incarcerated, accused of aggravated assault, as he friday evening threw a cobblestone through a window in the bakery. The stone passed closely by baker Børge Svaløs face. ..

He calls himself 100 percent Palestinian, born in a refugee camp in Lebanon 19 years ago, and now out of work in Denmark.

"The police has to stay away. This is our area. We decide what goes down here".

And then the bit with the drawings of the prophet Muhammed comes around:

We are tired of what we see happening with our prophet. We are tired of Jyllands-Posten. I know it isnt you, but we wont accept what Jyllands-Posten has done to the prophet", he says aggressively, and the others nod approvingly.

Planned for three weeks

To of them are Turks, and it is the first time, that Turks and Palestinians act together, the 19-year-old says.

"We have planned this for three weeks. That is why only two were arrested saturday nigh. The police will cordon off it all. But we know the ways out", he claims, and then disappears, munching on a piece of pizza from Fun Pizza.

The pizzerias windows are also held together by adhesive tape after the attacks with cobblestones.

(emphasis by the translation author).

:shock:

What the bleep is going on over there? Race riots version 2005? Mini-civil wars?

Big snip--
What the bleep is going on over there? Race riots version 2005? Mini-civil wars?

Not really, a lot has to do with poor conditions in those areas. Look at Brixton, Birmingham etc etc.

The plebs are revolting! :eek: :D

Not really, a lot has to do with poor conditions in those areas. Look at Brixton, Birmingham etc etc.

The plebs are revolting! :eek: :D
As opposed to, say, American race riots that had nothing to do with poor conditions in Black neighborhoods?

Riots in Paris, riots in Denmark- is Europe finally on fire?

Haha. What a ridiculous title.

Europe isn't on fire. As the mongoose says, these are localised examples of the underclass getting stroppy. The business in Paris is taking place in a sink estate, for example.
You might as well claim the dust up at the G8 summit in Seattle a few years back as proof that America was sliding into bedlam while that was happening.

Riots in Paris, riots in Denmark- is Europe finally on fire?

Haha. What a ridiculous title.
Your opinion has been duly noted and forgotten. Now, care to comment on the actual subject of the thread?

As opposed to, say, American race riots that had nothing to do with poor conditions in Black neighborhoods?
I think you and I both know American race riots were a tad more complicated then just poverty.....

Your opinion has been duly noted and forgotten. Now, care to comment on the actual subject of the thread?
I daresay that the topic of the thread has something to do with the subject matter. Accordingly: no, Europe's fine; you're just paranoid or anxious of the fact that it isn't.

I think you and I both know American race riots were a tad more complicated then just poverty.....
So are these. The sheer scale of the riots and the obvious pre-planning indicates that this unrest is anything but spontaneous.

this is just what UKIP and eurosceptics pick up on. Europe is NOT a disaster or about to collaspe. ALL countries have riots and it seems that just because some people we wouldn't nessarcerily expect to riot have done.

So are these. The sheer scale of the riots and the obvious pre-planning indicates that this unrest is anything but spontaneous.

Nooo... not really.

Honestly, I can't speak for the Danish riots becuase I haven't heard about them. But as to the French, it was a reaction to perceived injustice... not pre planned.
Riots happen all the time- in the US recently there was a neo Nazi demonstration that provoked a riot in... Kansas or Ohio(?)

Does that mean..."OMFG!!!! US is collapsing under weight of riots!!! AGGHHHH!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: "

No.

Isolated incidents- stop making them out to be indicative of Europe and widespread throughout the 25+ countries that make up Europe.

Your opinion has been duly noted and forgotten. Now, care to comment on the actual subject of the thread?

What, the riots? Meh. They'll pass. Your little "is Europe finally on fire" title, and the quoting of a blog - a blog! - is the only noteworthy thing here, in that it's acting like Europe has never seen riots before, or that these are the biggest ones evar and omfg, the sky is falling on them!!!ONE!"!!eleventyone!!"!½!

Puh-lease.

Ignore me, then.

Ignore me, then.

Quiet you! You're making too much sense!

Didn't Paris experience some intense rioting in '68?

If the posted article is accurate, these seem a little to "planned" to be coincidental.

The Europe... The Europe... The Europe is on fire... It don't need no water, let the motherf*#$!@! burn! Burn motherf&%$)!, BURN!:sniper:

Quiet you! You're making too much sense!
Sorry: I thought the irrational bollocks was reserved for threads about evolution.

I wonder if Jack Thompson will link the riots to "The Warriors".

Dunno abt Europe, but France is certainly getting some heat

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000100&sid=ahkvMytxwjDU&refer=germany
French Gangs, Police Clash Near Paris for Sixth Night (Update3)

Nov. 2 (Bloomberg) -- Gangs of youths clashed with French police for a sixth night as violence spread in Paris suburbs, prompting President Jacques Chirac to call for calm.

About 180 cars were torched over the last few days throughout the Seine-Saint-Denis department, northeast of the city, Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin told parliament today. Police last night fired rubber bullets at stone-throwing youths, Agence France-Presse reported.

The riots erupted in Clichy-sous-Bois after the deaths of two boys, aged 15 and 19, on Oct. 27. They were electrocuted by high-voltage equipment, police said. The violence reflects tensions in ghettos marked by youth unemployment, poverty and large Muslim communities in the majority Catholic nation.

``People must calm down,'' Chirac told a cabinet meeting today, according to spokesman Jean-Francois Cope. ``The law must be applied firmly and in a spirit of dialogue and respect.''

Underlining the gravity of the situation, de Villepin told lawmakers he had postponed a visit to Canada. Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy canceled a three-day trip to Afghanistan and Pakistan due to start on Nov. 6, the Interior Ministry said.

Chirac gave de Villepin a month to report on the effectiveness of measures to integrate ethnic minorities and promote equal opportunity. He also called for a plan to crack down on youth gangs.

Government Split

Chirac's comments followed criticism of Sarkozy by opposition Socialists and Azouz Begag, the government's junior minister for equal opportunity, for his tough approach. Sarkozy and Begag declined to comment after today's cabinet.

``We often have accepted the unacceptable,'' Sarkozy told Le Parisien daily in an interview today. ``The order that prevails too often is the order of gangs, drug dealers. The neighborhoods are now waiting for firmness but also justice: to give young people a job.''

De Villepin yesterday met the parents of the two youths. Circumstances of the accident will be ``thoroughly investigated,'' de Villepin told the parents, according to a release on the government's Web site.

The incident increased tensions within the government and between de Villepin and Sarkozy, Liberation said. The interior minister had initially announced he would meet with the parents of the two youths, who refused and asked to see de Villepin, the daily said. In the end, de Villepin and Sarkozy saw the families together, it said.

`Warlike' Words

Begag criticized Sarkozy for using words such as ``thugs'' to describe some youths in the neighborhood. Such language is ``warlike and imprecise,'' Begag told Liberation yesterday.

The Socialist Party issued a statement seeking ``exact'' information on the events last night.

The Interior Ministry didn't respond to questions after requesting that they be submitted in writing.

The latest violence surged on Oct. 30 in Clichy-sous-Bois after police launched a tear-gas canister into a mosque, Le Parisien said yesterday. Sarkozy denied tear gas was fired into the mosque, saying an investigation had shown the canister exploded outside.

Chirac asked for an explanation of the incident, Cope said.

Among 19 rioters arrested last night in the suburbs of Clichy and Sevran for possession of inflammable materials, vandalism and deliberate violence, 13 were kept in custody, Liberation said. Cars were burnt in the suburbs of Bondy, Sevran and Bobigny, while the situation cooled in Clichy-sous-Bois.

Unemployment, Poverty

A series of violent protests have occurred in France, mainly in areas marked by high youth unemployment, poverty and large Muslim communities.

Joblessness in France is 22.2 percent for men under 25 years old, compared with 7.8 percent for men aged 25 to 49, according to the Labor Ministry. France doesn't include ethnicity in its census nor does it publish poverty or unemployment statistics based on ethnicity or religion.

By age, the highest poverty rates in France are for men and women under 29 years of age.

The day after his return to the Interior Ministry June 1, when de Villepin succeeded Jean-Pierre Raffarin as prime minister, Sarkozy flew to the southern city of Perpignan, which had been rocked by riots after the killing of two Northern African immigrants. Sarkozy declared ``zero tolerance'' for murderers and rioters.

Dunno abt Europe, but France is certainly getting some heat
Bah, we had the same thing in Sydney a few months back. Redfern, a mainly Aboriginal suburb revolted after a boy was apparently impaled in a bike accident while fleeing the police.
Went on for only two days, but I don't think the conditions are as bad in Redfern as they are in some areas of Paris.

Ultimately this has more to do with a police force that failed to change its image necessarily brought upon itself by going after petty criminals among the poor people - and is therefore seen as the instrument of oppression. Race probably comes into it too...but I would primarily look for fault with the police (and the ringleaders of the riot) rather than racial discrimination.

So Holy Womble...I'm sorry, but you'll have to put up with us for a while longer yet.

Ignore me, then.
*Ignores*

...but I would primarily look for fault with the police
Or maybe the interior minister Mr. Sarkozy, bent up on 'cleaning up' these parts of Paris..? I'm not in France, but when/if I see somebody wanting to clean up the area I live in, I get an iffy feeling. Hardcore urban security policies seem to ROCK though.

Sorry: I thought the irrational bollocks was reserved for threads about evolution.
Ahahahahaha!!
You're funny! :D

And just to add valuable information to the thread...
I don't really think there is any. France will be fine, Denmark, as far as I know is quite alright, and I very much doubt that the rest of Europe are all too concerned about this. There are worse problems than kids setting cars on fire.

The statements of them wanting to control the area with violence are simply treason, which should be punished duly. If they are foreigners, they should be deported-ask-questions-later. There is no reason for any state to tolerate violent opposition against very law and order themselves.

The statements of them wanting to control the area with violence are simply treason, which should be punished duly. If they are foreigners, they should be deported-ask-questions-later.

*sigh* Treason? Deportation en masse? :rolleyes:

The statements of them wanting to control the area with violence are simply treason, which should be punished duly. If they are foreigners, they should be deported-ask-questions-later. There is no reason for any state to tolerate violent opposition against very law and order themselves.

Are you talking about the police or the rioters?

In Holy Womble's posting career he has repeatedly tried to make all Muslims and Europeans look bad. To him, Muslims are murderous savages, and Europeans are weak and stupid. He believes that we are insufficiently supportive of Israel.

I think this just proves that the French really suck at apathy. Two kids get killed, and now they have country wide riots for days?
I think that I am simply going to appreciate the irony, Americans took a hurricane to get this bad, all the French need is for two thieves snuff it.

*sigh* Treason? Deportation en masse? :rolleyes:
The European view of criminality is that it's selfish people - ordinary people, that is - being mad or furthering their own benefit. It is just a single man being violent. It's like the "Hanlon's razor": do not assume malice, assume stupidity.

Unfortunately, this humanistic view does not fit well with these rioters. They act out of malice, in an organized, violent manner. No state should tolerate that on their territory, or that state is incompetent and weak.

I think this just proves that the French really suck at apathy. Two kids get killed, and now they have country wide riots for days?
I think that I am simply going to appreciate the irony, Americans took a hurricane to get this bad, all the French need is for two thieves snuff it.
Riight. The whole country's rioting, people don't dare go out on the streets anymore, fear and violence everywhere.

The European view of criminality is that it's selfish people - ordinary people, that is - being mad or furthering their own benefit. It is just a single man being violent. It's like the "Hanlon's razor": do not assume malice, assume stupidity.

Unfortunately, this humanistic view does not fit well with these rioters. They act out of malice, in an organized, violent manner. No state should tolerate that on their territory, or that state is incompetent and weak.
I find that hard to believe. Isn't a riot by definition rather un-organized and spontaneous?

I think this just proves that the French really suck at apathy. Two kids get killed, and now they have country wide riots for days?
I think that I am simply going to appreciate the irony, Americans took a hurricane to get this bad, all the French need is for two thieves snuff it.

When did a hurricane ever cause major riots? The Katrina events were pure media fabrication. The closer thing you can compare it to in the US is the LA riots.

Riight. The whole country's rioting, people don't dare go out on the streets anymore, fear and violence everywhere.
Well, considering how much of the New Orleans story was a bunch of crap pulled out of the asses of reporters.
I think that there were really less than 10 murders, a bit of light looting, and I don't know if anyone has ever produced credible proof of a rape. All that, in reaction to a Hurricane.
I didn't say that France has exploded, I simply said that the French, who talked about the savage Americans, are actually just as bad if not worse when given an excuse.

When did a hurricane ever cause major riots? The Katrina events were pure media fabrication. The closer thing you can compare it to in the US is the LA riots.
I think I have clarified that in the other post.

New Orleans...
I think that there were really less than 10 murders, a bit of light looting, and I don't know if anyone has ever produced credible proof of a rape. All that, in reaction to a Hurricane.

In Paris, no murders (if not for those 2 kids), a bit of heavy looting, no rapes reported. All that, in reaction to a two kids who decided to go hide in an electric switch box and died.

I didn't say that France has exploded, I simply said that the French, who talked about the savage Americans, are actually just as bad if not worse when given an excuse.
But are they really?

Well, people are... people.

First you have this (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051102/ap_on_re_eu/france_rioting) going on in France:



What the bleep is going on over there? Race riots version 2005? Mini-civil wars?



Ok, you've officially freaked me out.

In Paris, no murders (if not for those 2 kids), a bit of heavy looting, no rapes reported. All that, in reaction to a two kids who decided to go hide in an electric switch box and died.
The kids don't count as murders, as they snuffed themselves. If I do something purposefully stupid and die because I have broken the law and am running away, it is my fucking fault.
Which is my point, a city is destroyed, some looting and a few murders occcur, and suddenly people are announcing how this proves that all americans are poopy-heads who shoot each other while being capitalists.'
Two kids get themselves Darwined, a bunch of people go nuts and start looting, and what do people respond with? Oh, thats just France. Its not symptomatic of nothing.
There are two ways to look at that, people just wanted to beat up on USians, or people learned a lesson about exaggerating for NO. I just find it hard to believe that the answer is 2.
But are they really?

Well, people are... people.
Yes, the people in France are in no way superior to USians. Are they worse? Not having lived with them, I couldn't say, but just because they have more regulations and gun-control doesn't make them beautiful angels who shit bricks gold and piss vodka.

europe isn't on fire. it's just ashes now. it was on fire 60 years ago.

it's called class war. and as much as i oppose socialism and communism, its inevitable that the poverty-stricken lower classes are going to get sick of conditions. maybe rich copanies and corporations should stop being greedy and start giving people their fair share. capitalism works when people have hearts and their are politcal leaders who don't let corporations take over a nation. but, apperently money is the only thing that matters to governments nowadays. think of it this way. right now, humanity is a stretched out rubber band. the question is, will humanity snap back, or snap apart?

Snippet
Seems like we agree. I'm dissappointed. The interesting tangent would have been this: In France it is immigrants and 2nd generation immigrants gone ape-shit, in NO it was red-blooded Americans. But you do have a point; the Frenchies don't have enough guns...

Yes, the people in France are in no way superior to USians. Are they worse? Not having lived with them, I couldn't say, but just because they have more regulations and gun-control doesn't make them beautiful angels who shit bricks gold and piss vodka.
You say they don't piss vodka?!? I don't mind them not shitting gold part that much... but that just broke my heart!

*starts learning Spanish*

You say they don't piss vodka?!? I don't mind the shitting gold part that much... but that just broke my heart!

*starts learning Spanish*
Good plan, Spainiards all have magic wings and own castles up in the sky. The only problem is that they do have a tendency to shed their skin and drink the blood of the living when the moon is full, but for the most part they are pretty cool.

Yes, the people in France are in no way superior to USians. Are they worse? Not having lived with them, I couldn't say, but just because they have more regulations and gun-control doesn't make them beautiful angels who shit bricks gold and piss vodka.

I don't think that really the point- or whats important about this thread. It was started with the appearance that merely because 2 seperate cities on the same continent had 2 unrelated riots... then the whole continent is 'in flames' and going down the pisser.

Bottom line: It ain't. Stop generalising the 25ish different states in Europe as the same. Its idiotic.

Good plan, Spainiards all have magic wings and own castles up in the sky. The only problem is that they do have a tendency to shed their skin and drink the blood of the living when the moon is full, but for the most part they are pretty cool.
Meh. Not that bad. All Finns shed their skin many times a year. It is called summer here (or more precisely 'tan').

(yes! we are outdoor specialised cave dweller-albinoes here)

I don't think that really the point- or whats important about this thread. It was started with the appearance that merely because 2 seperate cities on the same continent had 2 unrelated riots... then the whole continent is 'in flames' and going down the pisser.

Bottom line: It ain't. Stop generalising the 25ish different states in Europe as the same. Its idiotic.
I didn't say that anyone was going anywhere special. Its too late to notice that anyway, the whole world has been lurking about the sewage for some time.
And you're right, all generalizations are lame.

Two foolish youngsters get themselves killed and it causes a riot? It is a tragedy sure, but it sounds like it is just the poor looking for an excuse to riot.

I hate sensationalism in all it's forms.

Every night 30-40 youts took part, especially immigrants.

What is a yout?!?:cool:

What is a yout?!?:cool:
They're like youths, but they don't have access to spell-checkers.

What is a yout?!?:cool:

Must be from New York. :)

Bah, we had the same thing in Sydney a few months back.

France has 20% muslim population. It is not the same.


Ultimately this has more to do with a police force that failed to change its image necessarily brought upon itself by going after petty criminals among the poor people - and is therefore seen as the instrument of oppression. Race probably comes into it too...but I would primarily look for fault with the police (and the ringleaders of the riot) rather than racial discrimination.


You would make a fine apologist.

Oh wait, you already do..:D

France has 20% muslim population. It is not the same.
It always comes back to Islam with you two, doesn't it.
If you read the article, you'll find that the local Church Leaders are urging peace and for the parents to try and keep their kids at home.

I'm afraid this time it's got very worldly reasons...I used to live right next to a suburb in Hamburg that had similar conditions - Islam didn't matter so much to those people as fighting the man, and just generally resenting the pigs.

It always comes back to Islam with you two, doesn't it.


It always comes to being apologist to islamism with you, doesn't it?

Islam didn't matter so much to those people as fighting the man, and just generally resenting the pigs.

Maybe not for them. I ain't saying that the rioters are rioting for the cause of Islam.

But you can be sure this will become one of the "grievances" and "root causes" for further incidences.

But I am sure you will find some way to apologize then too.:)

But I am sure you will find some way to apologize then too.:)
I'm waaay ahead of you...

Now, where are my Plastic Explosives?

Now, where are my Plastic Explosives?

Ask Willie Brigette.

It was inevitable that this was going to happen. What do people honestly expect when they let millions of muslim immigrants into a country? And just look at the way there were muslim bombings in the mid-90s in France. The deaths of those two criminal scumbags who got themselves electrocuted (Good riddance as well) was just used as an excuse.

Not so fast.

Wasn't there riots between Afro-Caribbean gangs and Paki gangs in UK a few days back?:p

Not so fast.

Wasn't there riots between Afro-Caribbean gangs and Paki gangs in UK a few days back?:p
End of October..? Birmingham riots? No. Does not qualify. No (or not enough) angry muslims.

Unfortunately, this humanistic view does not fit well with these rioters. They act out of malice, in an organized, violent manner. No state should tolerate that on their territory, or that state is incompetent and weak.

An organised riot? Oh, you oxymoronic Finns.

An organised riot? Oh, you oxymoronic Finns.
Now you proceed to show us how organized riot is an oxymoron, right?

Now you proceed to show us how organized riot is an oxymoron, right?

Merriam-Webster does so better than I.

Merriam-Webster does so better than I.
I would so like to see you do it though. Please..?

I would so like to see you do it though. Please..?

Riot: "a violent public disorder; specifically : a tumultuous disturbance of the public peace by three or more persons assembled together and acting with a common intent"

Tumult: "disorderly agitation or milling about of a crowd usually with uproar and confusion of voices"

So, you would claim "organised disorder" is not an oxymoron? Should I define oxymoron as well?

So, you would claim "organised disorder" is not an oxymoron? Should I define oxymoron as well?I wouldn't claim nothing at all. I merely wanted your interpretation. Thank you for that. I now proceed to examine other meanings for words organized and riot. It was not a contest.

The tension is unbearable!

So Swedes and Finns don't like each other, do they?

Maybe Europe is on fire afterall...;)

So Swedes and Finns don't like each other, do they?

Swede-Finns are ok. ;)

Maybe Europe is on fire afterall...;)

Heh.

Finns and Swedes like each other most often. But we are in a written world here, and I expressed myself poorly. So no wonder Fass thought I was challenging him... of course I was not (however inept his explanation of those two words being an oxymoron was :) )

We are their former slaves afterall... :D

EDIT: Can't wait to see this thread tomorrow ;)
Night all.

Finns and Swedes like each other most often. But we are in a written world here, and I expressed myself poorly.

I love Finns usually.

So no wonder Fass thought I was challenging him... of course I was not (however inept his explanation of those two words being an oxymoron was :) )

I told you MW did it better than I. Told you so!

We are their former slaves afterall... :D

Breaking your backs was always pleasant, I'll grant you that.

Nooo... not really.

Honestly, I can't speak for the Danish riots becuase I haven't heard about them. But as to the French, it was a reaction to perceived injustice... not pre planned.
Riots happen all the time- in the US recently there was a neo Nazi demonstration that provoked a riot in... Kansas or Ohio(?)
And how long did it last?

There's a difference between a spontaneous mob riot and organized mob violence. When people react to something by rioting for a few hours or a day, it's an isolated incident. If they show up the next day to riot some more, it already isn't spontaneous, it means these people has been majorly pissed off at something way bigger than yesterday's incident, something that has been an issue for a long time. Now, when people riot for seven (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4401670.stm) days, when violence spreads out on a countrywide scale, this cannot possibly be spontaneous. This is an organized unrest, and someone leads them into the streets day after day.

The reason I suggested a race riots analogy is because the language used (http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2005-11/02/article05.shtml) by the rioting side is that of race:

French Muslims strongly denounced the French police firing tear gas at a mosque in the area, the act that torpedoed efforts to bring calm back to the area.

"The French Council of Imams condemns such a racist and dangerous act," the council's Secretary General Daw Meskine told IslamOnline.net Wednesday, November 2.

"Such a police practice has torpedoed the council's efforts to convince Muslim residents to be clam and avoid clashes with the French police and has turned the whole area into a 'ticking bomb'," he added.

The Union of Islamic Organizations in France (UOIF) blamed French police officers for the unrest in the area for their "racist" practices against the residents and the Muslim worship places.

Now put this into context with the riots in Denmark, riots in Birmingham, and- not too far away on the time scale yet- the events in Holland connected to the murder of Theo Van Gogh. Let's not forget that in the recent years, there has been enough riots of similar nature in other European countries- like Belgium (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2529683.stm). Dismiss them as single isolated incidents all you want, but it is obvious that Europe has become way too prone to riots- and it is always the same population that initiates all the aforementioned riots. Why this observation should ruffle so many feathers on this forum and send so many people into some kind of weird defensive fits is beyond me.

Oh and while I'm at it, I would like to address this stinky little ad hominem:

In Holy Womble's posting career he has repeatedly tried to make all Muslims and Europeans look bad. To him, Muslims are murderous savages, and Europeans are weak and stupid. He believes that we are insufficiently supportive of Israel.
1)I am not quite sure what a posting career is. If posting on NationStates counts for a career, I would like to get paid.
2)Nowhere in my posts will you find me describing all Muslims as "murderous savages" or anything like that. If you have examples, do share with the audience.
3)If I actually believed that all the Europeans are idiots beyond repair, I wouldn't give a monkey's about whether they support Israel. No one seeks the favor of people they despise.
4)By posting this ad hominem, you have solidly proven that at least one European is indeed an idiot. The most regrettable part of it is that you're apparently posting from Ireland. Of all the people of Europe I happen to have the most respect for the Irish (for personal reasons), and stumbling upon an Irish idiot was quite a disagreeable surprise.

This is an organized unrest, and someone leads them into the streets day after day.
Not necessarily. It may simply be that their anger is not quite gone yet, and that they thus simply organise themselves, without an outside leader.

Like on MayDay, you get the same thing in many places all over Europe, every year. Not necessarily that someone comes and tells people to go throw stuff at the pigs, it's just kinda...tradition. :D

As for your quotes, it should be fairly obvious to everyone that racial tension is a factor here. Even before religion I would say, because try as you might, the vast majority of second generation Muslim Immigrants in Europe aren't particularly religious, just angry and often unemployed.
The economic conditions right now aren't really helping either with that.

Did none of you guys ever feel the contempt for the police? It was ever-present where I grew up (I still look down my nose at every last one of them) and this fits the bill perfectly: You get to do a bit of payback and the chances you get caught are very small in a big group like this.
The local community leaders are probably more worried about their image than anything else.

So tension brought up because of economic conditions, the police not helping by being condescending pigs, and race always coming up in a situation like this.
So it is a social problem, but one that could be fixed if there was a bit of swing to come back into the economy.

The title sounds about as correct as when Britain and Denmark had snowstorms and the BBC was saying "OMG! SNOWSTORMS ALL OVER EUROPE! BIG BIG PROBLEMS! TOO MUCH SNOW! OMFG THE BLIZZARDS!" but... there wasn't any unexpected snowstorms anywhere else but Britain and Denmark. Any other country that wasn't expecting snowstorms, didn't get any.

Saying that riots in two countries means that Europe is falling apart is like saying that if Texas wants to secede, the US is falling apart

Not necessarily. It may simply be that their anger is not quite gone yet, and that they thus simply organise themselves, without an outside leader.
OUTSIDE leader? Not necesserily. But history shows that when large groups of people engage in unrest on a wide scale, it is NEVER spontaneous. Inside every rioting crowd there is a small group of well-trained professionals stirring things up.


Like on MayDay, you get the same thing in many places all over Europe, every year. Not necessarily that someone comes and tells people to go throw stuff at the pigs, it's just kinda...tradition. :D
You want to bring up MayDay as an example of something that isn't an organized activity?:rolleyes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4401670.stm
Violence has flared for a seventh night in immigrant communities to the north-east of Paris.

Youths in several areas have been roaming the streets with sticks, as buildings have been vandalised and dozens of vehicles set alight.
..
When you fire real bullets at police, you're not a 'youth', you're a thug
Nicolas Sarkozy
French Interior Minister

I think this just proves that the French really suck at apathy. Two kids get killed, and now they have country wide riots for days?
I think that I am simply going to appreciate the irony, Americans took a hurricane to get this bad, all the French need is for two thieves snuff it.

The deaths of those two criminal scumbags who got themselves electrocuted (Good riddance as well) was just used as an excuse.


Oh, for goodness' sake, get it right!

a) Clichy-sous-Bois is not the whole of France. I live not all that far from there, and it's perfectly calm over here.

b) The two kids were not criminals. Nor were they vandals, nor had they committed even the slightest offence. The police has confirmed that the kids had done nothing wrong whatsoever, and says they were not being chased.

"Somewhere", you've just made yourself look like a perfect fool. Congratulations.

You want to bring up MayDay as an example of something that isn't an organized activity?:rolleyes:
Nope, just something of an example of a rioting activity that isn't necessarily planned from the outside, but by the rioters themselves.
But since we agree on it, the point is moot. :)

Your opinion has been duly noted and forgotten. Now, care to comment on the actual subject of the thread?


'is Europe finally on fire?' - what exactly is this supposed to mean? Have you been expecting it to burn for some some time? Or perhaps praying for it to do so?


Don't post hysterical messages which illustrate your general ignorance unless you want to attract ridicule.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4401670.stm
Has anyone actually gotten killed by the riots yet?

actually this sort of thing is quite common in europe. It one of the problems of having a large minoroty that stands out from the majority (skins colour/religons/etc).
France, as i understand it, has always taken the view that everyone is equal and the same. What this has meant, is that to fully intergrate they must accept french culture. This might work when the minority is small and disperse, but that does not appear to be the case anymore.

Britain went through the same thing in the 80's/90's. The countries/governments just need to adapt to the changinf realities. They can't stop immigration because they need the workers, and they can't expect a growing minority to conform to the countries culture if they can form their own sub-culture.

So Swedes and Finns don't like each other, do they?


"Oh those Finns. They just get drunk and fight with knives." - My girlfriend's Swedish boss.

Probably being tongue-in-cheek. But I found it humourous.

Rosenhøj Mall has several nights in a row been the scene of the worst riots in Århus for years. "This area belongs to us", the youths proclaim. Sunday evening saw a new arson attack.

Their words sound like a clear declaration of war on the Danish society. Police must stay out. The area belongs to immigrants.

How is that a declaration of war on Danish society? Against the police, yes, but I see no evidence in the rest of your translation that they are declaring war on the wider society.

Maybe I should watch La Haine again.

Maybe I should watch La Haine again.

Yay, somebody finally mentioned it! You get a cookie.

Yay, somebody finally mentioned it! You get a cookie.

tbh, It is suprising it wasn't mentioned earlier in the thread. It was one of the the first things I thought about after hearing the news. :confused:

tbh, It is suprising it wasn't mentioned earlier in the thread. It was one of the the first things I thought about after hearing the news. :confused:

Me too, but I thought it too obscure a reference for this crowd. There are so many resemblances to the film, I wonder if some of the people involved aren't affected in some way by it, you know by going "oh, this is just like La Haine" so we should crash some socialite party and stuff...

It's what I'd do! ;)

Tis a very good film. *nods head sage-like*

I can't speak for France, but it seems like a black moslem minority has been harassed often with a tragic result: When two black moslem teenagers die by complete accident(and some rather dim decisions), the community at large feels harassed, and the whole cauldron of frustration tips over.

Now, I'm Danish, and the situation in Århus is anything but surprising. In Århus, like in most large Danish cities, there are a whole lot of immigrants and descendants of immigrants; many of them living in poverty, and some have been very poorly integrated into western culture.

With the rise of Dansk Folkeparti and racist sentiment in other ruling parties, they get blamed for everything from the death of christ to all violent crime in Danish society. If this seems planned this is because there are minorities of very pissed children of immigrants who are fed up with what they perceive as organized discrimination against them.

They plan unrest ALL the time, now and again an incident just blows into riots; and this pattern won't end until they are treated better. As one of the spokesmen in the interview(which is rather poorly interpreted, I think, having read the Danish version) says, they are currently occupied with a controversy regarding the visual portrayal of the prophet Mohammed in the Danish newspaper Jyllandsposten - Some moslems got very angry(as portraying Allah and the prophet is forbidden by islamic law), some made threats, and all of a sudden all the Danish politicians turned on them and branded them ignorant extremists. This wasn't the first time, and so the young moslems got pissed and rioted. No surprise around these parts..

Quite simply, it's a socially logical reaction to the development of events.

First, people come into a country, looking for better living conditions. Which they find. They might even get a job.

Then they realize that their jobs will BARELY keep them alive and fed. Maybe enough money to surivive on it, but no perspective or future. No chance to save up enough to actually buy something shiny and nice.

At the same time, advertisments and the community tell you that you're only what you can consume. You need the latest cellphone, the latest fashion, the latest car and whatnot to be considered 'valuable' as a person. You are what you consume.

In other words: These people work their ass off (if they have work to begin with), and have NO perspective at all to ever participate in the materialistic world of today. The dream, that everyone can be a millionaire, if he works hard enough, is over. Everyone noticed that. Working your way up doesn't work anymore.

That's not a European phenomenon. It's something that happens everywhere. In countries with more and tighter control and more police force, like the US, it takes an emergency situation to have it surface (since people are just fearing for their lives, they usually don't have to expect being shot in Europe just for rioting). But it's boiling everywhere.

The gap between rich and poor is opening wider. And the wider it opens, the more hatred will build on the poor side.

Too true, but that wasn't my point.

Racist discrimination from the mass media and leading politicians lead to riots in Denmark - PERCEIVED racist discrimination from the police lead to riots in France.

*cue mournful violin music*
You seem to be talking like we owe them something, which we don't. Beggars can't be choosers. These people may be poor over here, but they're still in a better position than they would be if they were in their countries of origin. So I don't see why we should be expected to bend over backwards to make sure they get everything they want in life. If life's so tough for them here, why don't they just go back to where they belong?

I would like to draw people's attetntion to the fact that not only youths are rebelling but also the syndicates are on the streets (of course less violently) because they refuse to work longer for less money, and both situations (the imigrants and the workers) still aren't resolved. Things are starting to look ugly for governments in Europe
I love it :D

If life's so tough for them here, why don't they just go back to where they belong?

You just said it, because it's worse over there, plus, who brought them to "western" countries? The governments of those same countries, when they needed workers

I believe that people have a right to political protest. Regardless of their beliefs, or the nature of their grievances, they have a right to political protest.

Peaceful political protest.

Regardless of anyone's political leanings, once they start burning cars, burning apartment buildings, and looting, they deserve only one thing - to be shot while committing those acts.

Rioting is an immediate and final departure from civilized political discourse. It is a gauntlet thrown down by the rioters themselves that indicates that they would rather settle their dispute by immediate violence. They should be answered in kind, with an overwhelming force that silences them.

I've read some posts in this thread from people saying things like "the new immigrants and/or their children haven't been accepted, or, that they haven't been integrated into western culture very well, and so on and so forth, but that's nonsense. Immigrants don't need to desire nor want to be integrated into a culture they feel is inferior to their own. They want their culture accepted for what it is. The very fact that they are told that they need to be 'integrated better,' simply says to them, our way is better, you must do it our way, not your way... :rolleyes:

It's doesn't really matter anyway. The twenty first century is the last century before Europe is going to be predominately Muslim anyway... Their grand-children will be the decision makers in the governments of the future in Europe. The immigration rate isn't even important anymore, it the growth rate. Only the minority ethnic groups in Europe are growing, the 19th century culture and governments of Europe will evolved from the inside out as they become minorities in their own countries. And like an expectant mother, Europe is experiencing the birth pains of their new age.

Sounds like it might be time for mass deportations of all involved and very, very long incarcerations for those convicted of violence during the riots.

If life's so tough for them here, why don't they just go back to where they belong?

What a wonderful xenophobe you are! Or maybe its just thinly veiled racism?

go back to where they belong

Who are you to decide who 'belongs' anywhere? You are not a thouroughbred yourself- why don't you go back where you came from... or do you not know your own ancestry?

"Oh those Finns. They just get drunk and fight with knives." - My girlfriend's Swedish boss.

Probably being tongue-in-cheek. But I found it humourous.



How is that a declaration of war on Danish society? Against the police, yes, but I see no evidence in the rest of your translation that they are declaring war on the wider society.

Maybe I should watch La Haine again.
It's a declaration of war because they're claiming a piece of Danish land and for all intents and purposes, seceding from Denmark.

You seem to be talking like we owe them something, which we don't. Beggars can't be choosers. These people may be poor over here, but they're still in a better position than they would be if they were in their countries of origin. So I don't see why we should be expected to bend over backwards to make sure they get everything they want in life. If life's so tough for them here, why don't they just go back to where they belong?

Sure. That's your position. Theirs is "gimme, 'cause you have it, I want it too!"

It's not about being right or wrong, not even "morally" right or wrong. It's about what people think is right. It always has been. They think they're being cheated out of money. They think they're being used as cheap labour. Or they think they're being kept unemployed so they can be used cheaply.

Hey, it's not about logic, it's about sociology. They think they are right, so they will do what they do. It's not a matter of "go back if you don't like it that way". Because they won't do that either.

Riot: "a violent public disorder; specifically : a tumultuous disturbance of the public peace by three or more persons assembled together and acting with a common intent"

Tumult: "disorderly agitation or milling about of a crowd usually with uproar and confusion of voices"

So, you would claim "organised disorder" is not an oxymoron? Should I define oxymoron as well?

It's disorder in the sense thatt they are halting the normal order of things for the area in a violent manner, not that the riot itself was not organized and thought out beforehand.

It's a declaration of war because they're claiming a piece of Danish land and for all intents and purposes, seceding from Denmark.

A declaration of war on Danish society.

As far as I can gather on the opening post, their beef is with the police and such, not the wider Danish society.

A declaration of war on Danish society.

As far as I can gather on the opening post, their beef is with the police and such, not the wider Danish society.
In the quote they said "this is our territory" and warned the police not to enter. They're saying Danish law doesn't apply to that piece of land, which happens to be within the borders of Denmark. It's not much different than when the Southern states tried to secede from the USA.

In the quote they said "this is our territory" and warned the police not to enter. They're saying Danish law doesn't apply to that piece of land, which happens to be within the borders of Denmark. It's not much different than when the Southern states tried to secede from the USA.

...or 'Free' Derry/ the Bogside in NI.

In the quote they said "this is our territory" and warned the police not to enter. They're saying Danish law doesn't apply to that piece of land, which happens to be within the borders of Denmark. It's not much different than when the Southern states tried to secede from the USA.

How's that declaring war on the wider society though?

How's that declaring war on the wider society though?
I guess it's just declaring war on the nation. One could stretch it and say that they're rejecting the rules of Danish society by saying that their laws dont' apply in that region.

I'm sorry, but I have this mental image of some Danish troops being asked to go in and rout them out, and a short pause while the squad has a brief discussion on whether or not to obey orders, followed by a show of hands.

It's doesn't really matter anyway. The twenty first century is the last century before Europe is going to be predominately Muslim anyway... Their grand-children will be the decision makers in the governments of the future in Europe.
You talk about that like it can't be avoided. I agree that the time for the traditional Europe has come to an end, and that over time with globalisation every country on earth will become a multicultural one - but many seem to think that the Muslims will somehow become the dominant force and turn the place into a copy of Egypt or Jordan.
That's very unlikely indeed. I expect birth rates to go up again with new changes in demographics and the economy - to my knowledge there has not yet been a culture in the world that exterminated itself by not having any kids.
So it won't be like the Europe we know, and it won't be like the Middle East or North Africa we know.
It'll be something new, and I for my part don't have a problem with that.

Right now, the EU has 15 million official Muslim citizens by the way...out of something like 450 million. It would have to move rather quick if they were going to become the majority before the century is over.

I'm sorry, but I have this mental image of some Danish troops being asked to go in and rout them out, and a short pause while the squad has a brief discussion on whether or not to obey orders, followed by a show of hands.
I don't think you want to know what the image of the average American soldier was in WWII...needless to say that mental images or prejudices are no good - and Denmark is to my knowledge helping out in Iraq, so you better be nice to your Allies, let you scare another one off like Italy. ;)

i watch/read the news every day and i just found out about this today wtf

i watch/read the news every day and i just found out about this today wtf
Where do you live?

Anyways, here is what the German papers write, who should be fairly familiar with the problems which caused all this.
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,383109,00.html

What is a yout?!?:cool:

LOL, you have watched "My Cousin Vinnie" I hope? :)