NationStates Jolt Archive

According to the report, Chretien and his chief of staff are responsible for the sponsorship scandal. Martin got no blame from the report (not a surprise though) because Chretien ran the program from his office when he was PM and Martin didn't get to touchy touchy with it.

What do you think?

***

News source:
- Martin forwards report to RCMP (http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/11/01/martin-gomery051101.html)
- Gomery blames Chrétien for sponsorship flaws (http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/11/01/gomery-report051101.html)

Sponsorship Scandal - Indepth:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/groupaction/

Gomery Report (I didn't read it, don't have time for it.)
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/groupaction/gomeryreport_phaseone.html

Courtesy CBC

we need a new fedral party, I wish the PCs would come back

we need a new fedral party, I wish the PCs would come backThey got gobbled up by Jesusfreaks of Stephen Harper.:p

BTW, vote:

http://www.ndp.ca/themes/ndp/images/ndp_logo.gif

for the next election!

I know it sucks, cant suport them, dont want not neo-cons runing canada, dont want the NDP in, and dont want the Libs in. damn this sucks!

Gomery was thorough. If he says Martin wasn't involved, I'll believe it. That, and Martin seems like a trustable sort of fellow to me. (And I voted NDP)
He's done better than I expected.
And I REFUSE to vote Conservative because Harper SCARES THE LIFE OUT OF ME! :P Every time that guy talks, I can't help but thinking of him as being Bush's lapdog if he were the PM, and getting all gun-happy, racing off to war. *shudder*
I actually LIKE the Liberal minority with NDP partnership. I think that's the healthiest way to go ahead... The Liberals and NDP together get left-leaning things done without overspending. Plus, they have to do some right-leaning things if they want to keep the Conservatives happy once in a while.

I hope when the next election comes around, there is another Liberal minority, with a couple extra NDP seats so they can really get some good things done. :)

Why wasn't there a "Topple corrup Liberal government and elect Jack Layton in a new clean NDP government" ?

I'll be dead and rotting in hell centuries before I'll ever let my country be run by a bunch of nuts who are planning on recriminalizing abortion, are against equal rights for minorities and forgot we actually have separated Church and State.

Paul Martin and the so-called "Liberal" party :mp5:
Stephen Harper and his neoconservative party :sniper:

I know it sucks, cant suport them, dont want not neo-cons runing canada, dont want the NDP in, and dont want the Libs in. damn this sucks!

All you have left now is voting for the Bloc :p

Too bad they don't run candidates outside Quebec :D

Why wasn't there a "Topple corrup Liberal government and elect Jack Layton in a new clean NDP government" ?

The NDP has been around for fifty years and has yet to do better than third place in a contest that has often been between only three major parties. MYRTH would be a more realistic poll option than the NDP forming government.

i think martin was in on it more than they think.

how can you be minister of finance and not notice....

You know, your poll is really short of options...

Why wasn't there a "Topple corrup Liberal government and elect Jack Layton in a new clean NDP government" ?well the NDP don't have enough support to get themselves in power. Oh well, even they can;t form a government, I'm still a proud supporter of the NDP:p. Too bad i cant vote:(

I should get a mod to add this as a 3rd option, if you want.

edit: I got a mod to edit my poll:D

All you have left now is voting for the Bloc :p

Too bad they don't run candidates outside Quebec :D


I forgot About thoses Tratorist shiteaters

The NDP has been around for fifty years and has yet to do better than third place in a contest that has often been between only three major parties. MYRTH would be a more realistic poll option than the NDP forming government.

Only if you assume all disgruntled Liberal voters automatically vote Conservative.

The Cons rarely poll above 1/3 of the population, in case you hadn't noticed. And a lot of NDP and Green voters vote "strategically" for the Liberals as they believe the Cons are a even worst choice than corrupt Liberals.

I guess there's no convincing people to actually vote on policies.

Why wasn't there a "Topple corrup Liberal government and elect Jack Layton in a new clean NDP government" ?

I'll be dead and rotting in hell centuries before I'll ever let my country be run by a bunch of nuts who are planning on recriminalizing abortion, are against equal rights for minorities and forgot we actually have separated Church and State.
For some reason I am skeptical that any mainstream Canadian party wants to limit the rights of minorities. Welcome to the twenty-first century.

The NDP has been around for fifty years and has yet to do better than third place in a contest that has often been between only three major parties. MYRTH would be a more realistic poll option than the NDP forming government.

It's still better than having the conservatives at the helm, I say.

Hell, sinking the ship on purpose is better than having Harper as the captain.

For some reason I am skeptical that any mainstream Canadian party wants to limit the rights of minorities. Welcome to the twenty-first century.

I believe he is referring to the fact that most Conservative MPs voted against allowing Same Sex Marriage in Canada.

well the NDP don't have enough support to get themselves in power. Oh well, even they can;t form a government, I'm still a proud supporter of the NDP:p. Too bad i cant vote:(


You mean you can't vote yet.

I agree however that they don't have a realistic chance of making it. The minority liberal governing with NDP support is my preferred choice. I wish they would form a real coalition with NDP MPs as members of the cabinet, though. Small chance of that, but they do it in europe and it works, or so I'm told.

I believe he is referring to the fact that most Conservative MPs voted against allowing Same Sex Marriage in Canada.

That, and their stance on immigration.

A disturbingly high percentage of their members are somewhat sexist, too, and even though I'm a man that's a concern. We're in 2005, you'd think everyone would have gotten the "men and women are equal" idea a long time ago.

I believe he is referring to the fact that most Conservative MPs voted against allowing Same Sex Marriage in Canada.
Ah. See, I think of blacks and Hispanics when someone says the word minority. In my country, the vast majority of discrimination is against those of color, not those of unconventional bedfellows, since you can't generally tell that by looking, even though they are discriminated against also.

Not to mention the whole conservatives are racist thing gets on my nerves. Not that I am one, but many of my friends are and I feel like they’re being insulted.

I forgot About thoses Tratorist shiteaters

My, my, so much hate in such a small package.

Live and let live, my friend.

That, and their stance on immigration.

A disturbingly high percentage of their members are somewhat sexist, too, and even though I'm a man that's a concern. We're in 2005, you'd think everyone would have gotten the "men and women are equal" idea a long time ago.

Take a look at the Conservative Party next time Question Period is on. Lots of old people. They're stuck in the past.
Mind you, there's lots of old people in all the parties...
Why is it that old people are decided to be more fit to govern? A question for another thread, probably. :P

Ah. See, I think of blacks and Hispanics when someone says the word minority. In my country, the vast majority of discrimination is against those of color, not those of unconventional bedfellows, since you can't generally tell that by looking.
Not to mention the whole conservatives are racist thing gets on my nerves. Not that I am one, but many of my friends are and I feel like they’re being insulted.

Most conservatives aren't racist. It's just that conservative parties tend to be, at the very least, more outspoken about their fellow men with skin of a different color.

As I said before, it's their stance on immigration I don't like. They wouldn't have those dirty foreign outsiders in their neighbourhoods, now that wouldn't do.

(And before you yell at me, please bear in mind I am fully aware conservatives aren't the only ones capable of racism. I am fully aware of it, and as a white man living in a city with little to no immigrants, I fight against racism with poeple of every color of the political spectrum.)

Take a look at the Conservative Party next time Question Period is on. Lots of old people. They're stuck in the past.
Mind you, there's lots of old people in all the parties...
Why is it that old people are decided to be more fit to govern? A question for another thread, probably. :P

You should create such a thread, I'm sure it would be popular.

It indeed is a concern. I suppose it has to do with how our society judges respectability and competence. While age may bring experience, there are a lot of old morons in position of power. And young persons are by no means incompetent solely because of their age.

What we're left with is voting for old people who are young at heart. Once again, Jack Layton comes to mind.:)

Most conservatives aren't racist. It's just that conservative parties tend to be, at the very least, more outspoken about their fellow men with skin of a different color.

As I said before, it's their stance on immigration I don't like. They wouldn't have those dirty foreign outsiders in their neighbourhoods, now that wouldn't do.

(And before you yell at me, please bear in mind I am fully aware conservatives aren't the only ones capable of racism. I am fully aware of it, and as a white man living in a city with little to no immigrants, I fight against racism with poeple of every color of the political spectrum.)
I forgot about immigration. That’s just the way conservatives express their unspoken or subconscious racism. They usually support tougher immigration laws and enforcement of those laws with the excuse that criminals bring crime, drugs etc.

Liberals (using American terminology) aren’t above this hidden racism, though. They just express it differently with a belief that minorities can’t make it on their own, so they support more welfare spending and affirmative action.

Most conservatives aren't racist. It's just that conservative parties tend to be, at the very least, more outspoken about their fellow men with skin of a different color.

As I said before, it's their stance on immigration I don't like. They wouldn't have those dirty foreign outsiders in their neighbourhoods, now that wouldn't do.

(And before you yell at me, please bear in mind I am fully aware conservatives aren't the only ones capable of racism. I am fully aware of it, and as a white man living in a city with little to no immigrants, I fight against racism with poeple of every color of the political spectrum.)

Every political party in Canada has more than their share of old, white guys. Most of them are trying to do something about that. The Conservatives have been electing ethnic minority MPs in ridings with high percentages of ethnic minorities - think of the two Grewals for example. The Cons aren't dumb - they've been actively courting ethnic votes, despite having the most restrictive immigration policy of all the major parties. They've proven to be fairly popular in BC's Indo-Canadian population in the lower mainland, but haven't done as well anywhere else.

I think the only party that actually has a specific party policy of choosing MPs that are young, ethnic, disabled, gay, or female is the NDP - and they're not short of white male candidates either, in case you're wondering. Oh, and the Greens wanted to run someone in every riding, and in a few ridings that meant accepting whoever wanted to run!

LOL - I just saw the Layton poll option. I just got a giggle out of the fact that the Conservatives got quotes around "clean" but the NDP didn't.

Not that I'm arguing against what that implies!

Liberals (using American terminology) aren’t above this hidden racism, though. They just express it differently with a belief that minorities can’t make it on their own, so they support more welfare spending and affirmative action.

Hence my comment in parentheses. Although I believe a mild dose of positive discrimination can be used as a quick boost to reestablish equality, but those should be by no means permanent measures.

For example, if for some reason we wished to abolish first nation reserves and integrate their population, it would be fair to give grants to boost postsecondary education(which is currently lower in this ethnic group than the rest of the counrty).

I believe the same is being done for black-skinned students in the US, although I have heard it creates some unrest because, unlike here, advanced studies are quite expensive.

LOL - I just saw the Layton poll option. I just got a giggle out of the fact that the Conservatives got quotes around "clean" but the NDP didn't.

Not that I'm arguing against what that implies!

I think we all agree with the quotations for the conservatives, and the absence of quotations for the NDP. :D

LOL - I just saw the Layton poll option. I just got a giggle out of the fact that the Conservatives got quotes around "clean" but the NDP didn't.

Not that I'm arguing against what that implies!
better thank me and euro:D

I put quotes around "clean" on the conservative option on purpose.:D:D

I didn't put quotes for the NDP just to make the conservative feel bad.:D:D:D

I think we all agree with the quotations for the conservatives, and the absence of quotations for the NDP. :D
seconded :D

For example, if for some reason we wished to abolish first nation reserves and integrate their population, it would be fair to give grants to boost postsecondary education(which is currently lower in this ethnic group than the rest of the counrty).
I’d hope you’d give compensation for abolishing sovereign nations. 'Tiss a tad differant than pure racially motivated handouts.

I’d hope you’d give compensation for abolishing sovereign nations. 'Tiss a tad differant than pure racially motivated handouts.

Well,that was an hypothetic example. For it to happen, I suppose they would actually have to WANT to get out fo their reserves.

It's arguable that those reserves and the fiscal advantages they get (not paying ANY taxes, high welfare rate, etc.) are slowly sucking what's left of their spirit as a people. Suicide rates are sky-high in some places, because they just don't have anything to look forward to, or a goal to attain. But this is another debate entirely, and not the subject of this thread.

...and what does everything think of the intial results of the Gomery inquiry anyway? I don't think any of us have actually addressed that.

...and what does everything think of the intial results of the Gomery inquiry anyway? I don't think any of us have actually addressed that.

Well, it's unsurprinsing.

I had hoped Gomery would have to guts to say that, even though Paul Martin isn't responsible for what happened, it's clearly a show of incompetence for a finance minister not to be aware of where goes the money.

Either he screwed up big time, or he purposefully closed his eyes on things he knew were going on, but was unwilling to stop or oppose. Either way, that makes him unfit to be prime minister.

My second point is reguarding the so-called "measures" taken against the main perpetrators. They get to refund the money they've stolen, without interest of penalties or fines, and are banned from a party most have left already a few years ago. Where are the criminal charges? I certainly hope they will be sent to a good old criminal trial to face prison time and fines. A failure to press charges would be, IMHO, the worst parody of justice I've ever witnessed.

Let's say I steal your money and get away with it. Ten years later, I'm caught, and I refund it. Am I gonna be let off the hook without charges just like that? Hell no.

Time for those bastards to pay. If they don't do prison time, I suggest a good old fashionned lynching. It's been far too long since we've had one of those.

Lynching eh? Hmmm...tempting as it is, I do claim to be against the death penalty.

What about an good old fashioned tar and feathering? That could be fun.

I agree that the Gomery report contained very few surprises, although I haven't had time to read through it all yet. Several bloggers I read have predicted the results and the media reaction pretty darn well.

So far, it has been a letdown. I can almost swallow the reasoning behind the Finance Minister not knowing about the sponsorship problems. I mean, I can presume he had high level knowledge of the program existing but not know the details, since I assume that civil servants do the real program work anyway.

What bothers me most is that they apparently had a whistleblower and several opportunities to stop it -- and didn't. And the whistleblower lost his job (for a while - he was reinstated later). To me, that's scarier than whether or not Martin knew (although it could be argued that it's all the same package).

This is now two federal government branches/organizations that have fired whistleblowers instead of acting on their reports. And THAT is something I want to see stopped. I want whistleblower protection. I want an investigatory arm that will actually investigate these concerns. I'm cynical enough to believe that no matter what party or politicians are in power, there will always be someone who is, or becomes, crooked. The whole "power corrupts" and "temptations" thing. What I want is a system that can catch it when it happens so that it doesn't become systemic.