NationStates Jolt Archive

CARACAS.—The homeland of Simón Bolívar awoke full of joy this October 28. From an early hour, the country was filled with the singing of epic songs and fresh impetus. Jubilation was visible in every plaza and corner of Venezuelan geography.

And there was more than enough reason for all that. This Friday, coinciding with the 234th anniversary of the birth of Simón Rodríguez, Venezuela was declared a territory free of illiteracy and is the second country after Cuba to attain that condition in Latin America.

“It is a veritable epic feat,” affirmed President Hugo Chávez, commenting on the significance of the event, after acknowledging that although the country has been making efforts to overcome illiteracy, the “Yes, I can!” method was the basis of the plan that made it possible to teach close to 1.5 million Venezuelans to read and write in a little over two years.

Without Cuba, Mission Robinson would have been virtually impossible, he confirmed, after thanking Fidel and the Cuban people for this special collaboration.

Well regardless on your political beliefs or leanings... its a good day for society when things like illiteracy are all but gone. :)

No country is illiteracy free. I'm sure if you looked hard enough, you could illiteracy anywhere. And do you know why Castro works hard to ensure as many Cubans as possible are literate?

Who declared them illiteracy free? Venezuelan propagandists?

I think there is some agency that records this stuff. But it doesn't really matter. Most third world countries are smarter on average than America.

No country is illiteracy free. I'm sure if you looked hard enough, you could illiteracy anywhere. And do you know why Castro works hard to ensure as many Cubans as possible are literate?

Thats true. 100% literacy is nearly impossible to get even in a Western state- but i already took that story witha grain of salt ;)

*Awaits the inevitable Chavez bashings...*

I think there is some agency that records this stuff. But it doesn't really matter. Most third world countries are smarter on average than America.

Proof?

And do you know why Castro works hard to ensure as many Cubans as possible are literate?Why?

I think there is some agency that records this stuff. But it doesn't really matter. Most third world countries are smarter on average than America.
Oh? Which ones? The ones where teenagers are gainfully employed as soldiers and prostitutes, or to the ones where they memorize the Koran and anti-Western hate all day? Perhaps you mean the ones where kids don’t have enough books to go around and the one room schoolhouse is still the standard?

Oh? Which ones? The ones where teenagers are gainfully employed as soldiers and prostitutes, or to the ones where they memorize the Koran and anti-Western hate all day? Perhaps you mean the ones where kids don’t have enough books to go around and the one room schoolhouse is still the standard?

Which of those categories do you claim Venezuela falls in?

Oh? Which ones? The ones where teenagers are gainfully employed as soldiers and prostitutes, or to the ones where they memorize the Koran and anti-Western hate all day? Perhaps you mean the ones where kids don’t have enough books to go around and the one room schoolhouse is still the standard?

Well its not fair to compare them with Alabama now is it? Not much competition there :p

Why?

Makes them easier to brainwash.

Makes them easier to brainwash.
:rolleyes:

I think there is some agency that records this stuff. But it doesn't really matter. Most third world countries are smarter on average than America.To point out one thing most third world countries have mostly illiterate. Thus how is it possible that they are smarter?

:rolleyes:

You obviously know nothing about Cuba. You're probably one of those whitewashing leftists who swallows Castro's bullshit hook, line, and sinker, about what a "worker's paradise" it is, and all that crap.

Which of those categories do you claim Venezuela falls in?
I’m not claiming that Venezuela falls into any of those. Most third-world countries do and so to say that they are more educated than Americans is absurd. Honestly, you people make me defend this country way too much. In most circles I’m usually the one criticizing it, but the illogic around here, man.

Makes them easier to brainwash.
So if a dictator doesn't teach his population to read it's because it's easier to brainwash them, and if a dictator does teach his population to read it's because it's easier to brainwash them.

Not that you have made this argument, but it seems fairly common.

So if a dictator doesn't teach his population to read it's because it's easier to brainwash them, and if a dictator does teach his population to read it's because it's easier to brainwash them.

Not that you have made this argument, but it seems fairly common.

Illiterate people can't read propaganda, can they?

So if a dictator doesn't teach his population to read it's because it's easier to brainwash them, and if a dictator does teach his population to read it's because it's easier to brainwash them.

Not that you have made this argument, but it seems fairly common.
Thank you :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:

Clearly... :rolleyes: .... was too subtle.

For the record, the CIA World Factbook offers these stats:

Denmark, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Norway, Finland, and Australia are all ranked at 100% literacy levels. A whole passel of them, including Canada, the US, and Cuba are ranked at 97%. Venezuela is ranked at 93.7%.

And another tidbit: all of Russia and the former Soviet states are all rated at above 99% (but under 100%).

Illiterate people can't read propaganda, can they?


Should read: Illiterate people CAN'T READ.

I’m not claiming that Venezuela falls into any of those. Most third-world countries do and so to say that they are more educated than Americans is absurd. Honestly, you people make me defend this country way too much. In most circles I’m usually the one criticizing it, but the illogic around here, man.

Hey, I was just asking, since you were the one that created the categories, and the subject was Venezuela.

Illiterate people can't read propaganda, can they?
And literate people can read literature that is critical of the regime. And the internet etc., etc.

Should read: Illiterate people CAN'T READ.

But the important thing is that they can't read propaganda. Which makes teaching them to read important to dictators.

Hey, I was just asking, since you were the one that created the categories, and the subject was Venezuela.
Next time, read the quote someone is responding to.

You obviously know nothing about Cuba. You're probably one of those whitewashing leftists who swallows Castro's bullshit hook, line, and sinker, about what a "worker's paradise" it is, and all that crap.
Like your version of the crap is any more accurate. :rolleyes:

Cuba is no worker's paradise, and I wouldn't want to give up the freedoms I currently enjoy to live there, but it's not the hellhole the right wing makes it out to be either.

But the important thing is that they can't read propaganda. Which makes teaching them to read important to dictators.

Dictators?????? Since when has a twice democratically elected leader of a state with a mandate... a dictator!?!?!!?

And literate people can read literature that is critical of the regime. And the internet etc., etc.

Not if such literature is banned.

Dictators?????? Since when has a twice democratically elected leader of a state with a mandate... a dictator!?!?!!?

I was talking about Castro.

Not if such literature is banned.
It always gets through anyway.

I was talking about Castro.
This thread is about Venezuala.

Like your version of the crap is any more accurate. :rolleyes:

Cuba is no worker's paradise, and I wouldn't want to give up the freedoms I currently enjoy to live there, but it's not the hellhole the right wing makes it out to be either.

Yes it is. Massive food shortages, shitty roach-infested hospitals, gulags, secret police prowling everywhere, virtually no free speech, second least free press in the world (according to Reporters Without Borders), widespread poverty, many children so poor they're forced into prostitution, etc., need I continue?

Next time, read the quote someone is responding to.

I did. Their statement did not help me ascertain your position on Venezuela in that context.

This thread is about Venezuala.

I know, but the first post mentioned Cuba and Castro.

shitty roach-infested hospitals, gulags, secret police prowling everywhere, virtually no free speech, widespread poverty, many children so poor they're forced into prostitution, etc., need I continue?

i'm sorry... you talking about Cuba?... or the US....

Edit: Before you go ape shit- i jest :p

Why?
Because all communists are secretly part of the powerful Librarian Lobby.
Fucking Librarians, they're out there and they'll stop at nothing to shove information down the throats of innocent idiots.

I'd just like to take this opportunity to point out that while Venezuela may be "free of illiteracy" [I have my doubts], that doesn't make it any less of a shithole. A lot of people are going to be quick to praise this declaration without taking the time to ponder what had to be done to make it so.

I'd still rather live in a partially illiterate United States any day. If some of you guys think this is such a magnanimous feat, try living in Venezuela.

i'm sorry... you talking about Cuba?... or the US....

Edit: Before you go ape shit- i jest :p

Cuba. Although hospitals available (only) to tourists there are first-rate. Hospitals for Cubans are not.

I'd just like to take this opportunity to point out that while Venezuela may be "free of illiteracy" [I have my doubts], that doesn't make it any less of a shithole. A lot of people are going to be quick to praise this declaration without taking the time to ponder what had to be done to make it so.

I'd still rather live in a partially illiterate United States any day. If some of you guys think this is such a magnanimous feat, try living in Venezuela.

I agree. I just think as a global society- humanity itself should strive for such goals- the eradication of illiteracy being one of them, regardless of who does it- West or East, Capitalist or Socialist, Rich or Poor.

CARACAS.—The homeland of Simón Bolívar awoke full of joy this October 28. From an early hour, the country was filled with the singing of epic songs and fresh impetus. Jubilation was visible in every plaza and corner of Venezuelan geography.

And there was more than enough reason for all that. This Friday, coinciding with the 234th anniversary of the birth of Simón Rodríguez, Venezuela was declared a territory free of illiteracy and is the second country after Cuba to attain that condition in Latin America.

“It is a veritable epic feat,” affirmed President Hugo Chávez, commenting on the significance of the event, after acknowledging that although the country has been making efforts to overcome illiteracy, the “Yes, I can!” method was the basis of the plan that made it possible to teach close to 1.5 million Venezuelans to read and write in a little over two years.

Without Cuba, Mission Robinson would have been virtually impossible, he confirmed, after thanking Fidel and the Cuban people for this special collaboration.


Supposedly intelligent people are "debating" an unsourced article making an unsubstantiated extraordinary claim posted without comment.

Why am I unsurprised at this occurance in the abyss of the NationStates General Forum....

Supposedly intelligent people are "debating" an unsourced article making an unsubstantiated extraordinary claim posted without comment.

Why am I unsurprised at this occurance in the abyss of the NationStates General Forum....

But... For the record, the CIA World Factbook offers these stats:

Denmark, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Norway, Finland, and Australia are all ranked at 100% literacy levels. A whole passel of them, including Canada, the US, and Cuba are ranked at 97%. Venezuela is ranked at 93.7%.

Supposedly intelligent people are "debating" an unsourced article making an unsubstantiated extraordinary claim posted without comment.

Why am I unsurprised at this occurance in the abyss of the NationStates General Forum....
At least before people sourced their articles so we could have a few pages of "this source sucks" "no its good" "no it sucks" "Debate the point not the source" "but the source is unreliable, and so the article is too". http://www.tag-board.com/smilies/nono.gif

But...


Yes, and? Does that somehow source, substantiate, or comment on the OPs claim? It does provide a bit of data that is slightly related to the question of the feasability of the claim that a 100% literacy rate is achievable. However, without knowing how that data was arrived at, it's rather meaningless...


At least before people sourced their articles so we could have a few pages of "this source sucks" "no its good" "no it sucks" "Debate the point not the source" "but the source is unreliable, and so the article is too".

Yep. Even TRA/MKULTRA managed to provide sources, however dubious.

just who the hell is TRA/MKULTRA?

To point out one thing most third world countries have mostly illiterate. Thus how is it possible that they are smarter?

Intelligence and literacy aren't related. If nobody ever taught you how to read, you'd still have the same brain, wouldn't you? That wouldn't somehow transform you into a less intelligent person.

I agree. I just think as a global society- humanity itself should strive for such goals- the eradication of illiteracy being one of them, regardless of who does it- West or East, Capitalist or Socialist, Rich or Poor.

First we should make sure people aren't starving to death and have places to live. One global dilemna at a time.

That's what Communist-inspired governments do - they teach the worker to read and write.
They may not get anything else done (that is subject to debate), but they do kill off illiteracy. North Korea is the same (as far as you can trust the figures).

just who the hell is TRA/MKULTRA?

An old poster, now departed. He originally posted under the internym "The Red Arrow" and later under "MKULTRA".

He was infamous for his cut and paste spams of articles from dubious far left sources (which he attributed about half the time), his "entertaining" lack debate skills, conspiracy theories, and his parroting of rhetoric. TRA was deleted by the Mods (Stephistan, IIRC) for repeated cut and paste spam. He returned as MKULTRA and was eventually deleted again for spamming. There was sonme question as to whether he returned yet again, as a poster (I can't recall the name in question at the moment) with a similar style did appear shortly after MKULTRA was deleted. However, MKULTRA freely acknowledged he was TRA, but the supposed third poster never did, at least to my knowledge.

My personal favorite TRAism was during a discussion of the article he posted claming that a pharmacutical company murdered a young woman. At one point he attempted to substantiate his argument by claming that he knew corporations acted in a certain manner because he'd been told by his father that the TV series "The Sopranos" was just like real life.

And the MKULTRA name was derived from to his pet theory that the CIA's MKULTRA experements (conventionally believed to be an investigation into "mind control" and brainwashing techniques, primarily through drugs such as LSD) were connected to the WWII era British cryptanalysis machine, which the CIA was somehow (never explained) using as a mind control device.

Thus endeth a short lesson on NS General Forum history.

An old poster, now departed. He originally posted under the internym "The Red Arrow" and later under "MKULTRA".

He was infamous for his cut and paste spams of articles from dubious far left sources (which he attributed about half the time), his "entertaining" lack debate skills, conspiracy theories, and his parroting of rhetoric. TRA was deleted by the Mods (Stephistan, IIRC) for repeated cut and paste spam. He returned as MKULTRA and was eventually deleted again for spamming. There was sonme question as to whether he returned yet again, as a poster (I can't recall the name in question at the moment) with a similar style did appear shortly after MKULTRA was deleted. However, MKULTRA freely acknowledged he was TRA, but the supposed third poster never did, at least to my knowledge.

My personal favorite TRAism was during a discussion of the article he posted claming that a pharmacutical company murdered a young woman. At one point he attempted to substantiate his argument by claming that he knew corporations acted in a certain manner because he'd been told by his father that the TV series "The Sopranos" was just like real life.

And the MKULTRA name was derived from to his pet theory that the CIA's MKULTRA experements (conventionally believed to be an investigation into "mind control" and brainwashing techniques, primarily through drugs such as LSD) were connected to the WWII era British cryptanalysis machine, which the CIA was somehow (never explained) using as a mind control device.

Thus endeth a short lesson on NS General Forum history.

was he clinicly insane or something?

was he clinicly insane or something?

Nope, not to my knowledge, just another typical NS poster.

An old poster, now departed. He originally posted under the internym "The Red Arrow" and later under "MKULTRA".

He was infamous for his cut and paste spams of articles from dubious far left sources (which he attributed about half the time), his "entertaining" lack debate skills, conspiracy theories, and his parroting of rhetoric. TRA was deleted by the Mods (Stephistan, IIRC) for repeated cut and paste spam. He returned as MKULTRA and was eventually deleted again for spamming. There was sonme question as to whether he returned yet again, as a poster (I can't recall the name in question at the moment) with a similar style did appear shortly after MKULTRA was deleted. However, MKULTRA freely acknowledged he was TRA, but the supposed third poster never did, at least to my knowledge.

My personal favorite TRAism was during a discussion of the article he posted claming that a pharmacutical company murdered a young woman. At one point he attempted to substantiate his argument by claming that he knew corporations acted in a certain manner because he'd been told by his father that the TV series "The Sopranos" was just like real life.

And the MKULTRA name was derived from to his pet theory that the CIA's MKULTRA experements (conventionally believed to be an investigation into "mind control" and brainwashing techniques, primarily through drugs such as LSD) were connected to the WWII era British cryptanalysis machine, which the CIA was somehow (never explained) using as a mind control device.

Thus endeth a short lesson on NS General Forum history.

Didn't he also come back as Skapedroe?

On topic, I saw good on 'em for the 100% literacy. Literacy is profoundly important. I would take the announcement with a grain of salt though, I think it would be extremely difficult to achieve.

Didn't he also come back as Skapedroe?

Thanks, that's the name I couldn't remeber! Some peoplo said Skapedroe was his third incarnation, but as I said above, Skapedroe never claimed to be TRA, while MKULTRA did. So I don't think he was.

To the person that asked "according to who?" The answer: UNESCO

The UN has also confirmed that Cuba has the lowest unemployment rate in Latin America - and most of the world (4.1%), lowest infant mortality rate in Latin America - and most of the world (5.8), lowest inflation rate in Latin America - and most of the world (0.50), one of the highest percentages of women in government in the world (36%), highest proportion of population with access to improved sanitation in Latin America - and most of the world (98%), highest porportion of birth attended by medical personnel in Latin America - and most of the world (100%) - lowest number of persons per hospital bed in Latin America - and most of the world (200), lowest number of persons per doctor in the entire world (290), and the lowest human poverty index in Latin America - much of the world (4.1%).

According to the UN, Cuba is also the only country ever known to entirely wipe out homelessness.

Also according to the UN, literacy before the revolution was only 52% - in two years it was 97%, life expectancy before the revolution was 59.4 years - it was raised to 76.6 years, and the infant mortality rate before the revolution was 60 - it soon dropped to 5.8

To the person that asked "according to who?" The answer: UNESCO

The UN has also confirmed that Cuba has the lowest unemployment rate in Latin America - and most of the world (4.1%), lowest infant mortality rate in Latin America - and most of the world (5.8), lowest inflation rate in Latin America - and most of the world (0.50), one of the highest percentages of women in government in the world (36%), highest proportion of population with access to improved sanitation in Latin America - and most of the world (98%), highest porportion of birth attended by medical personnel in Latin America - and most of the world (100%) - lowest number of persons per hospital bed in Latin America - and most of the world (200), lowest number of persons per doctor in the entire world (290), and the lowest human poverty index in Latin America - much of the world (4.1%).

According to the UN, Cuba is also the only country ever known to entirely wipe out homelessness.

Also according to the UN, literacy before the revolution was only 52% - in two years it was 97%, life expectancy before the revolution was 59.4 years - it was raised to 76.6 years, and the infant mortality rate before the revolution was 60 - it soon dropped to 5.8

I find almost every single statistic you posted dubious, at best. Care to post a link to the source? (I suspect the statistics are based on Cuban government sources, and thus unreliable.)

I think there is some agency that records this stuff. But it doesn't really matter. Most third world countries are smarter on average than America.

Let me guess. Your not an American.

And do you know why Castro works hard to ensure as many Cubans as possible are literate?
Because being able to read and write imporve a person's ability to understand, form opinions and decent?

Well I for one think this is a great thing. Now when Jose Venezuelen gets that letter in the mail ordering him to report to the Police HQ on account of an overheard bar conversation, he can read it himself and not have to be embarrassed by asking his neighbor what that one word means. And after his little chat, he can have his jaw wired for free with socialized healthcare! Don't you all wish WE could live there?

Well I for one think this is a great thing. Now when Jose Venezuelen gets that letter in the mail ordering him to report to the Police HQ on account of an overheard bar conversation, he can read it himself and not have to be embarrassed by asking his neighbor what that one word means. And after his little chat, he can have his jaw wired for free with socialized healthcare! Don't you all wish WE could live there?

Tragic paranoia of the first degree. America hasn't allowed true freedom of speech for quite some time now-at least not outside America. Sandanistas anyone?
Your government's fear of socialism is greater than its love of democracy.

I assume few of the critics of Cuba have actually visited? It is a strange place, and no, I wouldn't claim that having been for a three week holiday would make me an expert. But most of the people that I met were nourished, friendly and welcoming. The rat/slug infested hospitals that one poster referred to may be there, but frankly everyone has access to healthcare, education, a home and a job. Can we in Britain or you in the US really say the same?

As far as Venezuala goes, are the American posters really surprised that some Latin american states are less than enthralled with Western capitalism? Argentina anyone? Or Brazil?

This is not America bashing, or Western bashing. As another poster stated, I wouldn't give up my lifestyle to live there. But if I was stuck in a lousy council estate on the edge of Birmingham, Manchester or Glasgow, I wonder if I would feel the same?

Intelligence and literacy aren't related. If nobody ever taught you how to read, you'd still have the same brain, wouldn't you? That wouldn't somehow transform you into a less intelligent person.

Your brain would be the same, but not what you've fed into it. To be informed and develop an ability for critical thinking, literacy really helps.

To the person that asked "according to who?" The answer: UNESCO

The UN has also confirmed that Cuba has the lowest unemployment rate in Latin America - and most of the world (4.1%), lowest infant mortality rate in Latin America - and most of the world (5.8), lowest inflation rate in Latin America - and most of the world (0.50), one of the highest percentages of women in government in the world (36%), highest proportion of population with access to improved sanitation in Latin America - and most of the world (98%), highest porportion of birth attended by medical personnel in Latin America - and most of the world (100%) - lowest number of persons per hospital bed in Latin America - and most of the world (200), lowest number of persons per doctor in the entire world (290), and the lowest human poverty index in Latin America - much of the world (4.1%).

According to the UN, Cuba is also the only country ever known to entirely wipe out homelessness.

Also according to the UN, literacy before the revolution was only 52% - in two years it was 97%, life expectancy before the revolution was 59.4 years - it was raised to 76.6 years, and the infant mortality rate before the revolution was 60 - it soon dropped to 5.8


Oh, and just for good measure, you still need a source for the original article.

Oh, and just for good measure, you still need a source for the original article.
This deals (http://portal.unesco.org/education/en/ev.php-URL_ID=42794&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html) with the original post.

I find almost every single statistic you posted dubious, at best. Care to post a link to the source? (I suspect the statistics are based on Cuban government sources, and thus unreliable.)

Wow.. the UN. Must be some sort of global communist conspiracy eh? Never take UNESCO's word at face value.:rolleyes:

Thank you, Nazz.

“Venezuela is officially declaring its territory illiteracy-free on 28 October 2005.”

So the UN is taking Venezuela's word.

Wow.. the UN. Must be some sort of global communist conspiracy eh? Never take UNESCO's word at face value.:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

I very clearly said:
I suspect the statistics are based on Cuban government sources, and thus unreliable.

Without a link to the source, we can't see how those numbers were arrived at. If UNESCO is simply parroting the Cuban government, then the numbers are suspect. If article linked by Nazz above is correct, then this is indeed the likely case.

Additionally, the OP's reluctance to answer repeated requests for the source of his information throw doubt on the claim.

(And "global communist conspiracy"? Nice use of prejudicial language. Resorting to such arguments weakens your case.)

So the UN is taking Venezuela's word.

The CIA world factbook seems to support their stats although it doesn't have a 2005 figure...

To the person that asked "according to who?" The answer: UNESCO

The UN has also confirmed that Cuba has the lowest unemployment rate in Latin America - and most of the world (4.1%), lowest infant mortality rate in Latin America - and most of the world (5.8), lowest inflation rate in Latin America - and most of the world (0.50), one of the highest percentages of women in government in the world (36%), highest proportion of population with access to improved sanitation in Latin America - and most of the world (98%), highest porportion of birth attended by medical personnel in Latin America - and most of the world (100%) - lowest number of persons per hospital bed in Latin America - and most of the world (200), lowest number of persons per doctor in the entire world (290), and the lowest human poverty index in Latin America - much of the world (4.1%).

According to the UN, Cuba is also the only country ever known to entirely wipe out homelessness.

Also according to the UN, literacy before the revolution was only 52% - in two years it was 97%, life expectancy before the revolution was 59.4 years - it was raised to 76.6 years, and the infant mortality rate before the revolution was 60 - it soon dropped to 5.8
Wow, sounds like paradise! I wonder why so many of them are trying desperately to get the fuck out.

Wow, sounds like paradise! I wonder why so many of them are trying desperately to get the fuck out.

And they've probably produced 100,000 more boots than last year, more needles and thread, more buttons, and they've never been at war w/ Eurasia.

Wow, sounds like paradise! I wonder why so many of them are trying desperately to get the fuck out.

Possibly because the western world likes to infer that everything is so much better there?
Before the wall came down, most of East Germany beleived that things would be so much better for them. I knew a Polish girl who reckoned she would be able to live in her own flat and drive a nice car on a waitresses wages in London.
Don't get me wrong, I don't beleive the chance to make most of your own decisions is something that it would be worth giving up, but it does seem strange to me that so many Americans seem to feel that it's either their way or the highway. Plenty of people who don't like the way America does things defend their right to do it their way (domestically at least).

Statistics for Cuba:

http://www.uis.unesco.org/profiles/EN/GEN/countryProfile_en.aspx?code=1920

Stats for Venezuela:

http://www.uis.unesco.org/profiles/EN/GEN/countryProfile_en.aspx?code=8620

links for methodology, etc. can be found on these pages.

Eynonistan, let's compare.

First, to review the claims

Cuba has the lowest unemployment rate in Latin America - and most of the world (4.1%),

lowest infant mortality rate in Latin America - and most of the world (5.8),

lowest inflation rate in Latin America - and most of the world (0.50),

one of the highest percentages of women in government in the world (36%),

highest proportion of population with access to improved sanitation in Latin America - and most of the world (98%),

highest porportion of birth attended by medical personnel in Latin America - and most of the world (100%) -

lowest number of persons per hospital bed in Latin America - and most of the world (200),

lowest number of persons per doctor in the entire world (290), and

the lowest human poverty index in Latin America - much of the world (4.1%).

According to the UN, Cuba is also the only country ever known to entirely wipe out homelessness.

life expectancy ... was raised to 76.6 years,

the infant mortality rate ... dropped to 5.8

Further OP Claim:
Undefined literacy rate of 100%
Venezuela was declared a territory free of illiteracy and is the second country after Cuba to attain that condition in Latin America.

Furthermore, Mihkrit claims the source to be UNESCO. However Mihkrit has yet to provide a link to any UNESCO site or a citation of any UNESCO publication.

CIA factbook claims: (source: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html)

Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 97%

Inflation rate (consumer prices): 3.1% (2004 est.)

Infant mortality rate:
total: 6.33 deaths/1,000 live births

Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 77.23 years

So some agree rather closely with UNESCO and some don't. You might also note that most of those are 2005 figures, unless otherwise noted.

And for those who think I am making this a claim only against Cuba and Venezuela, I must say that the claims of 100% literacy for "Denmark, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Norway, Finland, and Australia" (see Equues above) are equally suspect. The claim of no homelessness is also suspect.

Without an explanation of how these figures were reached, all I can say is they are extraordinary, and thus require extraordinary proof. I want proof that every single individual of all ages and mental capacities are fully capable of reading before I accept that. Failing that, the only conclusions are that the statistic is incorrect, a misrepresentation, or a statistical flaw. Even if we go by the CIA factbook definition (age 15 and over can read and write) I doubt that there is not a single person fitting that definition who is illiterate.


Oh, and Psychotic Mongooses, why is it that when I question the integrity of the OPs claims, it's a sign that I'm looking for a "global communist conspiracy", but when you do it it's OK?

Thats true. 100% literacy is nearly impossible to get even in a Western state- but i already took that story witha grain of salt

Great news for Venezula and positive socialism in action (assuming its true).
Lets hope the Venezuelan people are using their literacy wisely and not listening to capitalist propanganda about 'freedom' and then joining the USA's next planned coup. If Chavez goes and a 'free market' government steps in its back to no education and therefore no hope and no freedom for the majority.

For the record, the CIA World Factbook offers these stats:

Denmark, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Norway, Finland, and Australia are all ranked at 100% literacy levels. A whole passel of them, including Canada, the US, and Cuba are ranked at 97%. Venezuela is ranked at 93.7%.

And another tidbit: all of Russia and the former Soviet states are all rated at above 99% (but under 100%).

For those interested: http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking_Literacy_total_population_top25.htm

Statistics for Cuba:

http://www.uis.unesco.org/profiles/EN/GEN/countryProfile_en.aspx?code=1920

Stats for Venezuela:

http://www.uis.unesco.org/profiles/EN/GEN/countryProfile_en.aspx?code=8620

links for methodology, etc. can be found on these pages.

Thank you. Finally we have something to work with!

What are the UNESCO literacy statistics?

The UNESCO literacy statistics are based on literacy data collected from national sources including population censuses and household surveys. Literacy/illiteracy rates are produced by dividing the absolute number of literate/illiterate in a given age-range (15-24 or 15 and above) by the corresponding total population. The national illiteracy rates are then applied to the population estimates produced by the United Nations Population Division to derive the literate/illiterate population counts.

So, yes, the data is based on Cuban and Venezuelan sources, and should be judged accordingly.

Great news for Venezula and positive socialism in action (assuming its true).
Lets hope the Venezuelan people are using their literacy wisely and not listening to capitalist propanganda about 'freedom' and then joining the USA's next planned coup.

WOW! :eek:

What an amazing admission. I applaud you! I do believe you are the first anti-capitalist I've heard admit that socialism is about enslaving the population

If Chavez goes and a 'free market' government steps in its back to no education and therefore no hope and no freedom for the majority.

I knew it was too good to be true. But at least you're basically willing to admit you want slavery for the minority. Good job.

So, yes, the data is based on Cuban and Venezuelan sources, and should be judged accordingly.

On what basis would you claim them unreliable?

On what basis would you claim them unreliable?

Cuban government statistics are notoriously unreliable. For example:
"ARE CUBA’S EDUCATIONAL STATISTICS RELIABLE?"
Benigno E. Aguirre and Roberto J. Vichot
...it is appropriate to examine now, in the twi-light
of this failed experiment, the reliability of Cu-ban
educational statistics. To what extent are they af-fected
by the generalized tendency of these social
systems to exaggerate accomplishments and make
untenable claims?
The question is not gratuitous, for there have been
widespread and persistent concerns among social sci-entists
about the reliability and validity of Cuban sta-tistics.
Carmelo Mesa-Lago (1969; 1979) was the
first to explore these issues for economic statistics.
Demographic statistics have been manipulated by the
government. Lisandro Pérez (1984) shows how Cu-ban
1970 Census data on race and education was
suppressed by the government for political reasons.
Norman Luxenburg (1984) using health statistics,
exploited the often-found exaggerations about the
achievements of the communist government result-ing
from the inattention and underestimation of the
remarkable progress of pre-1959 Cuban society. Giv-en
these uncertainties, we made internal and external
reliability checks on Cuba’s educational statistics.

lanic.utexas.edu/la/cb/cuba/asce/cuba6/47Aguirre.fm.pdf

Cuban government statistics are notoriously unreliable.

Ad hominem tu quoque is not an argument.

WOW! :eek:

What an amazing admission. I applaud you! I do believe you are the first anti-capitalist I've heard admit that socialism is about enslaving the population

Yous eem to be confused here, Socialism is diffreent to communism. Comunism is when people are allocated jobs by the goverment and apid by the goverment. Socalism has free Healthcare, a welther state and otehring things. people can pick what job they have.

Oh, and Psychotic Mongooses, why is it that when I question the integrity of the OPs claims, it's a sign that I'm looking for a "global communist conspiracy", but when you do it it's OK?

You were questioning the integrity of UNESCO's claims.

I was questioning the authenticity of a source that tells me 100%... when if you read what i said... 100% is nigh impossible to achieve in a Western country.

I believe UNESCO or even the CIA world factbook.

Wow, sounds like paradise! I wonder why so many of them are trying desperately to get the fuck out.
Well, the statistics may be accurate, but they don't tell the whole story. For example, while it says there's no homelessness it doesn't tell us the condition or quality of housing, how many people live in each dwelling, etc.

Literacy doesn't say what level of literacy people have, how many books a year each person reads, etc. And so on and so forth.

Socalism has free Healthcare, a welther state and otehring things. people can pick what job they have.

welther state? :confused:

welther state? :confused:
I'd say 'welfare'.... but i personally wouldn't agree that welfare state= socialist.

Read or die!!!!! Seriously, no matter who manages that feat or irregardless of what political philosophy is behind it, it can be nothing but a good thing.

That is, of course, assuming they are telling the truth. Perhaps it went something like this.....

Can you read?
Si.
Bueno!
How about you, can you read?
Si.
Bueno!
And you about you, can you read?
No.
BANG :mp5:

I'd say 'welfare'.... but i personally wouldn't agree that welfare state= socialist.
Neather would I, socialism is far more than that, but it is one of the componants.

If it weren't for the fact that it was the nation that claimed this feat (for example, I wouldn't believe America had 100% literacy if they claimed it, or Britain, or Canada), then I would say it was prrof of the inherent superiority of socialism over capitalism.

Sincerely,

Number III

I hear North Korea thinks the same thing, along with many other crazy things.

You know.....Chavez is becoming alot like Kim Jong Il....crazy and evil.

Ad hominem tu quoque is not an argument.

Apologies, looking back, I can see where you arrived at that. I should have separated the claims to be less confusing.

How's this:

Cuban statistics regarding health and education are unreliable, as seen in the evidence provided in this article (
lanic.utexas.edu/la/cb/cuba/asce/cuba6/47Aguirre.fm.pdf). Therefore the claims about Cuba likely to be unreliable.

As to the Venezuelan statistics, they should be judged according to the fact that the source is the Venezuelan government. They may be reliable. However, it is entierly possible that they are not.

Better? :)

Well, the statistics may be accurate, but they don't tell the whole story....
And with Cuba I would never underestimate the story of the American Dream, of free opportunity to succeed, and of Cable TV.
Not all of them necessarily have to think their life sucks, maybe they just think life in America would be better (whether justified or not is a different matter still - they are poor Cuban illegal immigrants afterall).

I just want to make a comment regarding the reliability of sources from communist states. Romania had a relatively high infant mortality rate - over 20 per 1000. Our dictator, Ceausescu, wanted to look better in the international statistics. The solution? All newborns were recorded in the official papers one month after their birth. The result? The infant mortality rate dropped spectacularly.

Tragic paranoia of the first degree. America hasn't allowed true freedom of speech for quite some time now-at least not outside America. Sandanistas anyone?
Your government's fear of socialism is greater than its love of democracy.

I assume few of the critics of Cuba have actually visited? It is a strange place, and no, I wouldn't claim that having been for a three week holiday would make me an expert. But most of the people that I met were nourished, friendly and welcoming. The rat/slug infested hospitals that one poster referred to may be there, but frankly everyone has access to healthcare, education, a home and a job. Can we in Britain or you in the US really say the same?

As far as Venezuala goes, are the American posters really surprised that some Latin american states are less than enthralled with Western capitalism? Argentina anyone? Or Brazil?

This is not America bashing, or Western bashing. As another poster stated, I wouldn't give up my lifestyle to live there. But if I was stuck in a lousy council estate on the edge of Birmingham, Manchester or Glasgow, I wonder if I would feel the same?

I was being totally serious! And i know Amerikka has no freedom of speech! You know all those rallies and protests that people hold? You ever wonder what happens right after they turn off the cameras? Those neocon capitalist rat bastards bring out the machine-gun squads.

What so they killed all the illiterates?

WOW! :eek:

What an amazing admission. I applaud you! I do believe you are the first anti-capitalist I've heard admit that socialism is about enslaving the population



I knew it was too good to be true. But at least you're basically willing to admit you want slavery for the minority. Good job.


I didn't quite admit i want slavery for anyone. How did you jump to that conclusion?

I'm waiting for the announcement from Venezuela that they have no sexually transmitted diseases, no poor people, and no crime.

Something makes me think that Chavez plays NS.

I'm waiting for the announcement from Venezuela that they have no sexually transmitted diseases, no poor people, and no crime.

Something makes me think that Chavez plays NS.

I bet its Fass. :p