NationStates Jolt Archive

This post is open for debate: do you think killing, then eating animals is immoral? You are also free to talk about being a veganism.

This post is open for debate: do you think killing, then eating animals is immoral? You are also free to talk about being a veganism.


i dont see why vegans and vegetarians eat the animals food if they care so much as to not eat them


terribly worded but im all englished out having finished my dissertation tonight

I eat meat. Beef, chicken etc etc. This is my view on the matter. We ran from the animals for millions of years. It's our turn now.

This post is open for debate: do you think killing, then eating animals is immoral? You are also free to talk about being a veganism.

How is it immoral? Animals aren't people... The point is moot.

But if you're curious about my dietary habbits I am proud to say that I am a meat eater. I frequently hunt with my family in south Georgia and have butchered numerous species of animal that I have killed myself.

I eat meat. Beef, chicken etc etc. This is my view on the matter. We ran from the animals for millions of years. It's our turn now.
REALLY?!?!?! I got the impression, we were almost always hunters. Cave men were not vegies.

Um, this post is not JUST a poll. It's a debate.

REALLY?!?!?! I got the impression, we were almost always hunters. Cave men were not vegies.
Yeah and those tigers and other predators never were able to kill us...

Frankly, militant vegitarianisim/veganisim is an absurd, prima-facie example of hypocritical authoritarian isim.

Unless you live in a hand-packed earth/adobe home and everything you eat, wear, build with, and in other ways consume is hand made from hand cultivated, hand harvested plant matter, you are complicit in the killing animals. Period. And no amount of self-righteous puffery will change that fact.

Otherwise, I have no issues with those who choose to not eat meat. Just don't try to make it a "moral" issue. ;)

I was a vegetarian for 5 years and a vegan for 1 before I got pregnant and started craving chili dogs. I cried all day, my husband said "quit crying and go get a chili dog" I did. He was so happy he took me out to a steak dinner. One bite of New York Strip, and my urge to eat meat came back. I am no longer a vegetarian. ;)

The story of what prompted me to become a vegetarian is really long so to be short with it someone slaughtered my pet cow in front of me, and then tried to feed it to me for dinner. :( I was traumatized.

REALLY?!?!?! I got the impression, we were almost always hunters. Cave men were not vegies.

actually cave men were hunter gatherers, but originally gatherers till they realised that they could scavenge meat off kills by animals, this slowly turned to the idea of hunting rather than scavenging

Yeah and those tigers and other predators never were able to kill us...
Yeah, it's not like we were the poor gazels running from the scary tigers. We killed them too. We killed wooly mamoths!

Yeah, it's not like we were the poor gazels running from the scary tigers. We killed them too. We killed wooly mamoths!
So it was a mutual killing...does that make it wrong for us to eat animals.

actually cave men were hunter gatherers, but originally gatherers till they realised that they could scavenge meat off kills by animals, this slowly turned to the idea of hunting rather than scavenging
Um, before man kind "figured things out" they relied on instinct. It's absurd to think of man in those days, accedently killing an animal, then saying: "Hmm, mabey that thing tastes goood..." No, they hunted from the start.

So it was a mutual killing...does that make it wrong for us to eat animals. When exactly did cows and, pigs eat people?

Um, before man kind "figured things out" they relied on instinct. It's absurd to think of man in those days, accedently killing an animal, then saying: "Hmm, mabey that thing tastes goood..." No, they hunted from the start.


you seem to have jumped this whole scavenging thing why so

When exactly did cows and, pigs eat people?
Have you ever pissed off a bull? Or a wild pig? They are dangerous animals. I am sure there is atleast one death from the running of the bulls each year.

i dont see why vegans and vegetarians eat the animals food if they care so much as to not eat them
Carefull! You are comming dangerously close to exposing our evil vegan plot to detstroy all animal life on planet Earth (yea, we're really aliens from Eroticon Six, that's why we're all so damn fuckable).
terribly worded but im all englished out having finished my dissertation tonight
Err.. Right.. Maybe..

Have you ever pissed off a bull? Or a wild pig? They are dangerous animals. I am sure there is atleast one death from the running of the bulls each year.
Compare one to millions.

When exactly did cows and, pigs eat people?

Pigs are very dangerous. If you look hard enough you can find stories about pigs (yes even domesticatede ones) killing and then eating people.

When exactly did cows and, pigs eat people?
Obviously you have never met a feral pig/hog.

They are uber mean, will kill you with a quickness and eat your carcass after it's stopped moving... :eek:

Compare one to millions.
As opposed to the BILLIONS of animals killed by cultivating/harvesting/motorized equipment each year? :rolleyes:

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=97836&page=1

Nobody's hands are free from the blood of other animals, not even vegetarians, he concluded. Millions of animals are killed every year, Davis says, to prepare land for growing crops, "like corn, soybean, wheat and barley, the staples of a vegan diet."

Smaller Victims

The animals in this case are mice and moles and rabbits and other creatures that are run over by tractors, or lose their habitat to make way for farming, so they are not as "visible" as cattle, he says.

And that, Davis says, gives rise to a fundamental question: "What is it that makes it OK to kill animals of the field so that we can eat [vegetables or fruits] but not pigs or chickens or cows?"

Any disruption of the land, whether it be to farm or to build subdivisions, reduces the amount of land left for other animals, resulting in the deaths of many. And Davis, a professor of animal science at Oregon State who grew up on a farm, says as a child he saw animals killed by the routine operation of farm machinery, so there's no way to have a bloodless farm.

"If they say they don't want to kill an animal so they can eat, I think their conclusion is misguided because they are killing animals so that they can eat that vegetarian diet," Davis says. "Those animals happen to be a little bit invisible. They are not as obvious to the man on the street as killing a steer in the slaughterhouse. But nonetheless, it's still going on."

Duh... :rolleyes:

Compare one to millions.
Still demonstrates that they can and do hurt us. So I don't pity them besides, they live a good life. All they do is eat, sleep and fuck. Especially in dairy cows, they live for a long time so the farmer can get the most milk out of each cow.

Obviously you have never met a feral pig/hog.

They are uber mean, will kill you with a quickness and eat your carcass after it's stopped moving... :eek:
Talking about wild boars? Those critters are insane.

And you're forgetting that we vegans eat a lot of harvested shit. Guess what; fields aren't bog lifeless squares of plants. Tons of animals gets ground up each year, and vegans, by & large, gobble it down happily.

Really though, who's the morally superior evangelicals here, my dear omnivores?

Still demonstrates that they can and do hurt us. So I don't pity them besides, they live a good life. All they do is eat, sleep and fuck. Especially in dairy cows, they live for a long time so the farmer can get the most milk out of each cow.

We're killing and eating university students?

Talking about wild boars? Those critters are insane.

And you're forgetting that we vegans eat a lot of harvested shit. Guess what; fields aren't bog lifeless squares of plants. Tons of animals gets ground up each year, and vegans, by & large, gobble it down happily.

Really though, who's the morally superior evangelicals here, my dear omnivores?

Who cares? We have bacon.

Plus, if you're aware of that fact, what justification do you have for being vegan?

.

Err.. Right.. Maybe..

well, the 100 A4 pages back and side, plus a mountain of research books disagree with you ;)

We're killing and eating university students?
If they drank beer and created bizarre social groups like frats and sororities...yeah pretty much.

I'm a very strict vegetarian and feel compelled to defend our side of the argument!!

1. Just coz cave people ate meat doesnt mean we should. We don't do what cave people did most other aspects of our lives because we have become more intelligent and been able to create more useful things for ourselves etc And for me, one part of this modern lifestyle has been being able to think about what I eat and why I eat it.

2. In repect to things unintentionally being killed in wheat harvesting etc I guess you've got a point, and maye I should ONLY eat thing that I have grown myself and all that, but frankly that would be highly unrealistic and would then have to be the only thing I could do with my life. For em the difference in eating animals killed for meat and insects unintenionally killed in harvesting is for one the intentions with which the animal died, and that it was much less direct and I have much less control over it.

I'm a very strict vegetarian and feel compelled to defend our side of the argument!!

1. Just coz cave people ate meat doesnt mean we should. We don't do what cave people did most other aspects of our lives because we have become more intelligent and been able to create more useful things for ourselves etc And for me, one part of this modern lifestyle has been being able to think about what I eat and why I eat it. Ok. That's personal choice.
2. In repect to things unintentionally being killed in wheat harvesting etc I guess you've got a point, and maye I should ONLY eat thing that I have grown myself and all that, but frankly that would be highly unrealistic and would then have to be the only thing I could do with my life. Yeah, so? If you advocate/agitate for political Veg-isim it is the only way you can have any moral authority for trying to impose that "unrealistic" lifestyle on others. For em the difference in eating animals killed for meat and insects unintenionally killed in harvesting is for one the intentions with which the animal died, and that it was much less direct and I have much less control over it.I only made the Bombs, I didn't drop them. :rolleyes:

well I don't ever try to impose my vegetarianism on others, in fact I avoid talking about it at all unless in a debate like this.

As for not following that lifestyle of growing own food etc I feel I have to draw the line somewhere. Im vegetarian because I feel I can do good without much harm to myself. As selfish as it is, if it were going to do CONSIDERABLE harm to myself (like I was going to die if I didnt eat meat, or being vegetairan would prevent me from doing anything else with my life) I would stop.

well I don't ever try to impose my vegetarianism on others, in fact I avoid talking about it at all unless in a debate like this.

As for not following that lifestyle of growing own food etc I feel I have to draw the line somewhere. Im vegetarian because I feel I can do good without much harm to myself. As selfish as it is, if it were going to do CONSIDERABLE harm to myself (like I was going to die if I didnt eat meat, or being vegetairan would prevent me from doing anything else with my life) I would stop.
Then you are a rational vegitarian taking a rational personal choice. People who espouse Veg-isim on "moral" grounds are not so rational.

Then you are a rational vegitarian taking a rational personal choice. People who espouse Veg-isim on "moral" grounds are not so rational.
I have full respect for the rational vegan/veggie (I used to be one)
I would always come across vegans (in particular) who wanted to make it a crusade, saying that meat eaters were murderers and such (much like the pro-life people outside the planned parenthood) I took great enjoyment in finding hidden animal in their diets. They would get all mad. "I thought you were on our side, eh, I mean the animal rights side"

"nope, I just made a personal choice and choose to let others do the same"

then they got really mad.

did I mention that when I started eating meat again I lost all those "friends"? Oh well, life has been super fun since.

vegetarina , but would eat what i killed myself - then i'd be sure it'd be killed in a humane pain free way ...

i eat meat, although i've given up chicken with this bird-flu going round....

Vegetarian because I'm picky and it's easier (for me) and I don't like the taste of meat. I only normally talk about it in debates or if someone is cooking me food.

I eat steak, all of it. Meat is good, its a tasy source of protien....and just tastes good. YAY BACON!

Yeah, I'm a meat eater. My theory is this: God gave us opposable thumbs and a brain, so that we could dominate the world and eat animals. Thats why I don't eat monkees or people, cause they have opposable thumbs. But anything else is free game. And I eat my meat rare. Not just rare, but really rare. In fact, if flames have singed it at all, its too well cooked for me. And then you use the blood as a gravy for your mashed potatos, and your rolls. Remember kids, theres room for all of God's creatures, right between the veggies.

actually cave men were hunter gatherers, but originally gatherers till they realised that they could scavenge meat off kills by animals, this slowly turned to the idea of hunting rather than scavenging
It's been theorized that the development of the human brain, which isn't metabolically cheap, was made possible by the addition of meat to our diets. Meat is much more calorically dense than vegetables and the human brain uses something like 25% of all the calories the average person burns in a day.

I eat pretty much any kind of meat. I don't have any problems with vegetarians, except the ones who turn it into a moral issue and accuse me of being a murderer.

How is it immoral? Animals aren't people... The point is moot.

But if you're curious about my dietary habbits I am proud to say that I am a meat eater. I frequently hunt with my family in south Georgia and have butchered numerous species of animal that I have killed myself.

Morality does not have to pertain just to interaction directly with other humans (just because a majority of moral codes involve other humans does not mean that they all necessarily have to)


1. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
2. Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
3. Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.
4. Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.
5. Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.
6. Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty.

it could fit all of them

...do you think killing, then eating animals is immoral?
No. I think it's fine, I like meat, couldn't live happily without me pork chops.

It's all good. In the old days we killed animals and they killed us in equal proportions. Now it's getting a little unbalanced, so mother nature chucked cholesterol into the mix.

How is it immoral? Animals aren't people... The point is moot.

But if you're curious about my dietary habbits I am proud to say that I am a meat eater. I frequently hunt with my family in south Georgia and have butchered numerous species of animal that I have killed myself.
I agree, animals are not people, and they're tasty, so let's eat them yumm:rolleyes:

It's all good. In the old days we killed animals and they killed us in equal proportions. Now it's getting a little unbalanced, so mother nature chucked cholesterol into the mix.
For some reason I think colesterol existed before the imbalance

It's all good. In the old days we killed animals and they killed us in equal proportions. Now it's getting a little unbalanced, so mother nature chucked cholesterol into the mix.
Compared to other primates I think humans are pretty resistant to cholesterol.

How is it immoral? Animals aren't people... The point is moot.
That just begs the question as to whether or not morality extends to non-human animals.

Frankly, militant vegitarianisim/veganisim is an absurd, prima-facie example of hypocritical authoritarian isim.
At what point did anyone mention "militant" vegetarianism?
Unless you live in a hand-packed earth/adobe home and everything you eat, wear, build with, and in other ways consume is hand made from hand cultivated, hand harvested plant matter, you are complicit in the killing animals. Period.
Only just as complicit as you are in any variety of other controversial activities on which the productive aspects of your society depends. So if this complicity rules out taking a moral stand on killing animals, why doesn't it rule out a moral compulsion against child labor? Or slavery, for that matter?

That just begs the question as to whether or not morality extends to non-human animals.
The question isn't that simple from my point of view. I think that some of it extends to animals, some of it doesn't. For me it's OK to kill animals for eating them and/or using their fur for clothes or their horns for ashtrays. As long as they're not endangered species and there's no useless cruelty, I see nothing wrong about it.

I love animals. They're delicious! :)

If God didn't want us to eat animals, He wouldn't have made them out of meat. :)

If God didn't want us to eat animals, He wouldn't have made them out of meat. :)
Damnit. You beat me to it. Barely. I hate you.:fluffle:

As opposed to the BILLIONS of animals killed by cultivating/harvesting/motorized equipment each year?

And that, Davis says, gives rise to a fundamental question: "What is it that makes it OK to kill animals of the field so that we can eat [vegetables or fruits] but not pigs or chickens or cows?"

This misses the point. Most vegetarians that I know (myself included) are not opposed in principle to killing animals, as part of the "food chain" or otherwise. Animals kill other animals, and human beings are... well, animals.

What we do oppose is the industrialization of killing: breeding, imprisoning, over-feeding, over-medicating and abusing animals solely for the purpose of slaughter.

If you kill your own meat in the wild and eat it, I have no problem with that. It might have been killed by another animal anyway. If some wildlife dies in the process of maintaining a human world, I have no problem with this either (although it would be reasonable to seek ways to minimize this impact, for ecological and environmental reasons). That's how nature works. But at least those animals got to live in nature... they got to take their chances in the world and fight to survive.

What "civilized" humans do for their meat is just sickening.

If God didn't want us to eat animals, He wouldn't have made them out of meat. :)

You win a cookie for having the best quote of the day.

*Hands Greenspoint a cookie*

70 Billion animals murdered every year to sustain a race of 6 Billion. I don't know how you can justify that.

70 Billion animals murdered every year to sustain a race of 6 Billion. I don't know how you can justify that.
Because they're tasty and nutritious, maybe? :rolleyes:

70 Billion animals murdered every year to sustain a race of 6 Billion. I don't know how you can justify that.
Nice attept at emotive language


Main Entry: 1mur·der
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r
Function: noun
Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Old French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek brotos mortal
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

Its not a person nor is it unlawfull

I eat meat. Beef, chicken etc etc. This is my view on the matter. We ran from the animals for millions of years. It's our turn now.
Hehhe:p

This post is open for debate: do you think killing, then eating animals is immoral? You are also free to talk about being a veganism.


I do not think that killing and eating animals is immoral, so long as it is done humanely and swiftly.

I think vegetarianism and veganism are equally correct choices, and will not impose my values on others. I hope others would have the courtesy to do the same to me.

This misses the point. Most vegetarians that I know (myself included) are not opposed in principle to killing animals, as part of the "food chain" or otherwise. Animals kill other animals, and human beings are... well, animals.

What we do oppose is the industrialization of killing: breeding, imprisoning, over-feeding, over-medicating and abusing animals solely for the purpose of slaughter.

If you kill your own meat in the wild and eat it, I have no problem with that. It might have been killed by another animal anyway. If some wildlife dies in the process of maintaining a human world, I have no problem with this either (although it would be reasonable to seek ways to minimize this impact, for ecological and environmental reasons). That's how nature works. But at least those animals got to live in nature... they got to take their chances in the world and fight to survive.

What "civilized" humans do for their meat is just sickening.To the main extent of this post, I agree. That is why I Hunt - and what little other meat I buy comes from certified free-range small farms.

At what point did anyone mention "militant" vegetarianism? IMO only the "militant" Vegs' use the "morality" issue to "support" their choice.
Only just as complicit as you are in any variety of other controversial activities on which the productive aspects of your society depends. So if this complicity rules out taking a moral stand on killing animals, why doesn't it rule out a moral compulsion against child labor? Or slavery, for that matter?That's why I don't buy from WalMart...

i would be vegitarian/vegan, but i like the way meat tastes :D

its not a breach of my morals to eat a dead animal - that happens in the wild and its part of nature, part of how we got where we are today. humans are, biologically speaking, omivores anway - not herbivores.
the only problem i have is eating meat that has been inhumanely killed and reared in unpleasant conditions. if you're going to breed it, feed it and then kill it, you may as well treat it half decently.
this is why i hate buying meat from supermarkets (yay farm-direct sales!)

70 Billion animals murdered every year to sustain a race of 6 Billion. I don't know how you can justify that.
Easy. They're animals. They can't think like we can, therefore they're less important than humans and are subject to being exploited for food and clothing.

Easy. They're animals. They can't think like we can, therefore they're less important than humans and are subject to being exploited for food and clothing.

We'll make an evil Capitalist pig out of you yet!

What the hell...? THe options are majorly biased! There is no other option for people like me who aren't meat eaters but refused to call themselves vegetarians because of the salad/rabbit food stigma attached to it!

I mean, I hate the taste of meat and it's not good for me, so I abstain from eating. Instead, I eat vegetarian options like the veggie hotdogs and burgers, but I still eat fish.

You can't have a good debate with the limited options in the poll!

This post is open for debate: do you think killing, then eating animals is immoral? You are also free to talk about being a veganism.
I think that eating, then killing the animals is what's immoral.

I voted meat eater. Where is the Omnivore option? After all isn't that what the animal, Humans are classified as?

I think that eating, then killing the animals is what's immoral.
MMMmmmm Vivisection.... Brains on the Half Skull!

I've been a vegetarian for around 5 years as although I always place the value of people above animals I believe it is simply wrong to kill animals for meat when there are perfectly good alternatives.

This post is open for debate: do you think killing, then eating animals is immoral? .

No. Who the hell thinks it is? And why??? :confused:

The real question here is:

Moral quandaries notwithstanding, how can vegetarians live without bacon to share their plate with eggs? You can't breakfast halfway decently without those crisp, juicy, delicious bacon stripes, now can you?

Even though I hold much respect for vegetarians and vegans, and knowing that eating meat as a general rule of thumb is bad for our health(especially red meat), I simply cannot be convinced to give up my bacon. You'll have to pry my dead, cold fingers off a bacon stripe the day I have a heart attack because my arteries are too clogged with bacon fat. Delicious, juicy, tasty bacon fat.

I've been a strict vegetarian since I was about 12, after I saw my grandfather kill a chicken. After that incident I just kind of lost my taste for it. I stopped eating meat, I never ate eggs (thought they were gross), and I don't drink milk. I do however eat cheese, and its yummmmmmy. After 11ish years of not eating meat I've completely forgotten what it tastes like, so I can't miss eating it. I don't care if people eat meat, its their choice. I personally just don't enjoy it, the rest of my family does and it doesn't bother me one bit.

No. Who the hell thinks it is? And why??? :confused:

Besides, the cows and pigs would do the same to us if we let em. :D

I think that eating, then killing the animals is what's immoral.
cuisine





Traveller’s Tip
Protect yourself in restaurants by saying, Houy mai farater, po! (‘Not spicy! Foreigner!’) whilst pointing to your (or your partner’s) bottom.

Festive Food
During times of celebration such as New Year or the cessation of civil war, the Phaic Tanese love to serve a special duck dish called guoman. The bird is plucked, rolled in spices and slowly roasted over hot coals before being brought to the table and killed.


How about cooking then killing them?

I've been a strict vegetarian since I was about 12, after I saw my grandfather kill a chicken. After that incident I just kind of lost my taste for it. I stopped eating meat, I never ate eggs (thought they were gross), and I don't drink milk. I do however eat cheese, and its yummmmmmy. After 11ish years of not eating meat I've completely forgotten what it tastes like, so I can't miss eating it. I don't care if people eat meat, its their choice. I personally just don't enjoy it, the rest of my family does and it doesn't bother me one bit.
hmm seing a chicken killed at that age never bothered me

hmm seing a chicken killed at that age never bothered me

It bothered me, I don't know why. It was the first time I had seen it done, so maybe that was it. I was around 7 when I actually saw it done, but just stopped eating chicken. It wasn't until I was twelve that I decided to stop eating meat all together. Until that point I knew that what I was eating was a dead animal, but I had never actually seen the process by which it made it to the table.....

hmm seing a chicken killed at that age never bothered me
What if it was being Choked? ;)

well, the 100 A4 pages back and side, plus a mountain of research books disagree with you ;)
That can't possibly be the case. I don't know how you interpreted the statement you quoted, but I assure you it only meant that I had no idea what the statement I quoted meant.

Obviously whatever you're referring to can't possibly be disagreeing with that, as there's no way in hell you, or anyone, could've produced that much material stating that I don't know what I don't know.

Even if you had tons of material backing up that I actually do know the meaning of something that I don't understand, it wouldn't make any difference. However, if the statement I quoted made sense to you, I would appreciate if you fill me in, instead of simply accusing me of lying about my lack of understanding of something that makes absolutely no sense to me.

... Nutter

It bothered me, I don't know why. It was the first time I had seen it done, so maybe that was it. I was around 7 when I actually saw it done, but just stopped eating chicken. It wasn't until I was twelve that I decided to stop eating meat all together. Until that point I knew that what I was eating was a dead animal, but I had never actually seen the process by which it made it to the table.....
Ahh lived on a farm most of my life
Had no real delusions about where my food came from

Ahh lived on a farm most of my life
Had no real delusions about where my food came from

Well I grew up in somewhat rural Poland, and we raised a lot of our own food (I wouldn't consider it a farm). Chickens, ducks, geese and a rather large garden. I have two older brothers and they did most of the "farm" work :). I knew where it was coming from, I knew after naming quite a few of the ducks we raised and then sitting down to the table for a meal of czarnina that night that when I went out in the morning one of the "pet" ducks would probably be gone....

I think it was just actually seeing the chicken killed that got to me.

Well I grew up in somewhat rural Poland, and we raised a lot of our own food (I wouldn't consider it a farm). Chickens, ducks, geese and a rather large garden. I have two older brothers and they did most of the "farm" work :). I knew where it was coming from, I knew after naming quite a few of the ducks we raised and then sitting down to the table for a meal of czarnina that night that when I went out in the morning one of the "pet" ducks would probably be gone....

I think it was just actually seeing the chicken killed that got to me.
Ahh I was one of the “boys” doing that farm work ... had to kill more then a few myself

Though MOSTLY we raised them for eggs not meat

Ahh I was one of the “boys” doing that farm work ... had to kill more then a few myself

Though MOSTLY we raised them for eggs not meat

We raised them for eggs as well, but every once in awhile the boys would go out and kill one for dinner, heh. I helped in the kitchen, but it was hard to imagine the chicken in the bowl as the same chicken I had been chasing around earlier.

Vegan for fifteen years and counting...

If God didn't want us to eat animals, He wouldn't have made them out of meat. :)
Because that's:
1. a serious, mature, and well thought out argument
2. original

Main Entry: 1mur·der
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r
Function: noun
Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Old French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek brotos mortal
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

Ok, you've shown us definition 1. How many more are there, and what do they say? Here's one I found on dictionary.com:
2. To kill brutally or inhumanly
So. You (attempt to) stun an animal, using a point-ed stick. You proceed to hook its hooves, swing it up into the air, and slit its throat. It bleeds to death in around 20 seconds. Does that, or does that not, count as killing it 'brutally or inhumanly'?

I'm vegetarian (what, you guessed? :eek: ). Almost 50% of the world's combined grain harvest is used to feed animals destined for human consumption every year. Those animals provide around 20% of the entire calorific intake of humans each year. If you were to cut the amount of grain fed to farmed animals by, say 50%, the number of deaths caused by starvation each year would drop by around 250 million. That's the population of Indonesia - the 4th most populous country in the world. Want to help reduce global hunger? Become vegetarian.

Because that's:
1. a serious, mature, and well thought out argument
2. original



Ok, you've shown us definition 1. How many more are there, and what do they say? Here's one I found on dictionary.com:

So. You (attempt to) stun an animal, using a point-ed stick. You proceed to hook its hooves, swing it up into the air, and slit its throat. It bleeds to death in around 20 seconds. Does that, or does that not, count as killing it 'brutally or inhumanly'?

I'm vegetarian (what, you guessed? :eek: ). Almost 50% of the world's combined grain harvest is used to feed animals destined for human consumption every year. Those animals provide around 20% of the entire calorific intake of humans each year. If you were to cut the amount of grain fed to farmed animals by, say 50%, the number of deaths caused by starvation each year would drop by around 250 million. That's the population of Indonesia - the 4th most populous country in the world. Want to help reduce global hunger? Become vegetarian.


I was using Webster

Main Entry: 1mur·der
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r
Function: noun
Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Old French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek brotos mortal
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought
2 a : something very difficult or dangerous <the traffic was murder> b : something outrageous or blameworthy <getting away with murder>


2 did not seem to pertain enough to include it I apologize

The real question here is:

Moral quandaries notwithstanding, how can vegetarians live without bacon to share their plate with eggs? You can't breakfast halfway decently without those crisp, juicy, delicious bacon stripes, now can you?

Even though I hold much respect for vegetarians and vegans, and knowing that eating meat as a general rule of thumb is bad for our health(especially red meat), I simply cannot be convinced to give up my bacon. You'll have to pry my dead, cold fingers off a bacon stripe the day I have a heart attack because my arteries are too clogged with bacon fat. Delicious, juicy, tasty bacon fat.
Ever tried veggie bacon? It's hella good -- and that's coming from someone who's not a vegetarian. ;)

It's funny, though. Several people in this thread are bleating about "militant vegetarians," yet the vast majority of "militant" behavior I'm seeing is from my fellow meat-eaters. :rolleyes:

It's funny, though. Several people in this thread are bleating about "militant vegetarians," yet the vast majority of "militant" behavior I'm seeing is from my fellow meat-eaters. :rolleyes:

It's always been that way. I have never encountered a militant vegetarian, but boy, the number of meat-eaters who have tried to "convert" me on the grounds that I'm supposedly "abnormal"!

It's always been that way. I have never encountered a militant vegetarian, but boy, the number of meat-eaters who have tried to "convert" me on the grounds that I'm supposedly "abnormal"!
And I have seen the opposite too

More then a few times in this forum

For some reason people seem to ignore the fact that their own “side” does very similar things at the far end

It must just be convenience specially tied to anecdotal evidence that the “other side” does it more

It must just be convenience specially tied to anecdotal evidence that the “other side” does it more

Quite possibly... In any case, most militant meat-eaters are blatant hypocrites in this regard.

I'm not denying there are militant vegetarians. I've heard second-hand accounts about some; I just happen never to have met any first hand, whereas I've met a great many militant meat-eaters.

I never proselytise myself, nor do I ever begin a discussion on the topic.

Oh, and to answer the original question, I don't eat meat because I consider it is unethical to do so when it's by no means necessary. Before you jump on me for that, if you know anything about me you'll know I differentiate "ethics" from "morals". Ethics, to me, are personal, so it's a personal choice, and I don't go around trying to impose it on other people.

Why I consider it unethical:

* animals are killed without valid reason (I and other vegetarians are living proof of that); even if you feel you couldn't do without the taste, substitutes exist
* the conditions in which many are raised, and slaughtered, are sickeningly cruel
* feeding animals destined to be slaughtered uses up a hell of a lot of grain and other foodstuffs, needlessly, which could best be used to feed starving or hungry humans in other parts of the world
* intensive animal-raising is harmful to the environment.

Ever tried veggie bacon? It's hella good -- and that's coming from someone who's not a vegetarian. ;)

It's funny, though. Several people in this thread are bleating about "militant vegetarians," yet the vast majority of "militant" behavior I'm seeing is from my fellow meat-eaters. :rolleyes:

I've never tried veggie bacon. I would probably be ready to have a taste, just to see what it's like, although I can scarcely fathom how it could be as good as old-fashioned pork strips filled with delicious fat.

As for "militant vegetarians", I had never before heard of that. Those "bleating" about them must be scared that vegetarians and vegans are gonna try to force their beliefs on them. Few poeple other than religious nuts actually try to force others to adopt their vision of the world.

To them, a socialist vegan homosexual pacifist is the epitome of evil :-P

I've never tried veggie bacon. I would probably be ready to have a taste, just to see what it's like, although I can scarcely fathom how it could be as good as old-fashioned pork strips filled with delicious fat.

As for "militant vegetarians", I had never before heard of that. Those "bleating" about them must be scared that vegetarians and vegans are gonna try to force their beliefs on them. Few poeple other than religious nuts actually try to force others to adopt their vision of the world.

To them, a socialist vegan homosexual pacifist is the epitome of evil :-P
I think what most people mean when they refer to "militant" vegeitarins are those who call people who eat meat murderers or as being immoral, rather than vegeitarians wanting to force their dietary habbit on others.

Quite possibly... In any case, most militant meat-eaters are blatant hypocrites in this regard.Not Me! ;) I actually eat mostly Veg. What meat I eat I either kill myself or buy from small-cap free-range farms because I am quite appaled with factory meat.I'm not denying there are militant vegetarians. I've heard second-hand accounts about some; I just happen never to have met any first hand, whereas I've met a great many militant meat-eaters. One word. PETA. 'nuff said. :rolleyes:
I never proselytise myself, nor do I ever begin a discussion on the topic.My point is simply that modern vegtable/grain agraculture is quite deadly to animal life at all phases of production - so there is no moral authority in saying "I'm Vegitarian 'cause killing animals is bad"... unless you grow/harvest all your own food by hand.

Otherwise, can I interest you in a Portabella "Burger"? :p

Why I consider it unethical:

* animals are killed without valid reason (I and other vegetarians are living proof of that); even if you feel you couldn't do without the taste, substitutes exist
* the conditions in which many are raised, and slaughtered, are sickeningly cruel
* feeding animals destined to be slaughtered uses up a hell of a lot of grain and other foodstuffs, needlessly, which could best be used to feed starving or hungry humans in other parts of the world
* intensive animal-raising is harmful to the environment.

Well, if we are going to turn this into a debate, I'll take it on:

Valid reason? Food. Valid is kinda vague after all and what one person considers valid may be dismissed entirely by someone else.

Cruelty? Well, what about Kobe beef? These are cows that are taken better care of than the people that take care of them and is considered some of the best beef on the planet. Would you eat cows raised under those conditions?

Using up grain that could be used to feed people? Realistically, it's not that the quantity of food is not available to feed people, it's a logistical problem more than anything else. There's plenty of food in the world, but there is an enormous beaureaucracy that prevents it from getting to people. I'd much rather see it fed to animals that will actually eat it than rotting in a warehouse because of red tape.

As far as intensive animal raising is harmful to the environment? I think it's a matter of defining "intensive" and "harmful". Both are very vague. Intensive sports are harmful to playing fields, but that's why there are greenskeepers to keep the damage under control.

I think Douglas Adams had the right idea: we should create animals that want to be eaten and are capable of saying so clearly and distinctly.

Vegetarian for six months now, ever since I became a Vaishnavite devotee.

I used to eat everything, even beef (holy cows!) regularly. I am also a good cook, especially chiken tikkas and fries.:D

I am not missing anything. I am feeling a lot better healthwise and soulwise since renouncing meat.

There is, however, merit to the argument that current aggri business treats animals horribly bad, and also to the argument that if we stop relying so much on animal products, we can easier, cheaper and more enviromentally sustainable, feed all of mankind instead of just the rich ones.
Also, most people in the first world nations consume more animal products than is actually good for their health. This does not only help cause a wide range of health problems, it also results in a lot of productivity loss (more sick days), increased taxes (for those of us smart enough to have national health services), and just generally a poorer economy.

There's no doubt it's healthy to consume some animal products, but our current consumption isn't healthy at all.

That, however, is no argument for becomming vegan or vegetarian. It's just an argument for stopping to think for a second, and perhaps modifying your lifestyle slightly.

I haven't read this entire thread, but why is it people are so pissed at vegans? We aren't cannibals or anything like that, and we don't even steal your burgers. So what the fuck is it all about?

I'm vegetarian (what, you guessed? :eek: ). Almost 50% of the world's combined grain harvest is used to feed animals destined for human consumption every year. Those animals provide around 20% of the entire calorific intake of humans each year. If you were to cut the amount of grain fed to farmed animals by, say 50%, the number of deaths caused by starvation each year would drop by around 250 million. That's the population of Indonesia - the 4th most populous country in the world. Want to help reduce global hunger? Become vegetarian.
Just out of curiousity, what factors are taken in to these calculations. Do they include things like
-the need to replace the meat in peoples diets with something else, meaning not all the grain would go to poor nations
-the need to supplement the nutrients that are in meat, but not grain in these peoples diets, requiring the increased production of foodstuffs containing those nutrients
-that these crops won't necesarily be growable in the same clime as grain
-that grain alone won't prevent people in the third world from dying from malnutrition
-what to do with the livestock that is no longer being taken care of, i.e. fed, given land to live on, by humans, if you expect farmers to care for them out of the goodness of their heart your crazy
-what will be done with the people employed in the "meat" industry for lack of a better word.
-why will people grow crops only to have them given away, I'm assuming these people are starving because they can't afford the food
-what effect will this have on those in the third world trying to make a living growing food

Not an attack or anything just curious.

There is, however, merit to the argument that current aggri business treats animals horribly bad, and also to the argument that if we stop relying so much on animal products, we can easier, cheaper and more enviromentally sustainable, feed all of mankind instead of just the rich ones.
Also, most people in the first world nations consume more animal products than is actually good for their health. This does not only help cause a wide range of health problems, it also results in a lot of productivity loss (more sick days), increased taxes (for those of us smart enough to have national health services), and just generally a poorer economy.

There's no doubt it's healthy to consume some animal products, but our current consumption isn't healthy at all.

That, however, is no argument for becomming vegan or vegetarian. It's just an argument for stopping to think for a second, and perhaps modifying your lifestyle slightly.

I haven't read this entire thread, but why is it people are so pissed at vegans? We aren't cannibals or anything like that, and we don't even steal your burgers. So what the fuck is it all about?
I agree with most of this, but I do wonder about the whole treatment by aggri buessness bit does this mean the whol factory style some places have or in general. I have relatives who raise cattle on their farm and they seem quite well treated.

I like Vegans and Veggie type people. I give them my fries, the let me have their burgers. It works for all of us. :D

I am a meat eater, however I only eat meat which is from an animal which is still alive and conscious, especially cute looking baby lambs and bunnies. I believe to do otherwise is immoral and goes against nature as animals expect to be eaten while they are still alive.

there is no moral authority in saying "I'm Vegitarian 'cause killing animals is bad"... unless you grow/harvest all your own food by hand.


Well, one is a side effect. The other is intentional. That is a difference, even thought the effect on the animal and the result is the same. But I do try to avoid stuff like that and buy mostly wheat and rice products imported from India. With some curries made with vegetables from a local trader's market, I think I can avoid such moral issues. I have also stopped buying milk off the shelf and sticking to only organic milk.

Q: Do you think killing animals is immoral?

Depends

Q: Do you think eating animals is immoral?

No

Q: Do you think that killing animals for food is immoral?

No

I'm a proud omnivore. Just like my father before me and his father before him.

I agree with most of this, but I do wonder about the whole treatment by aggri buessness bit does this mean the whol factory style some places have or in general. I have relatives who raise cattle on their farm and they seem quite well treated.
If I was talking about small-time farmers and the like, it would have invalidated the arguments I made, so no.

In my personal opinion, eating animals or relying on them for other things isn't wrong at all, as long as it's done humanely. Organic farms would be the way to go in my opinion. Also, I realize that some vegans try to dispute this, but the fact is that humans are designed to be omnivores. The most notable side effect of not eating animal products (in particular not drinking milk & eating meat) is that our immune systems become slightly less efficient. Good argument for nippling on a cow once in a while right there.
On the other hand, doing that more than once or twice a week isn't what we're designed for, and can quickly become outright unhealthy... But it all depends on what exactly what you eat.

By the aggri-business, I meant the huge farm complexes that currently supply us with nearly all animal (and grain) produce. This is not good for the enviroment, not healthy for us, and not great news for the 4/5ths of humanity that can't compete, and often not even affort the products.

The average european cow is subsidised with more money per day, that the income of the average citizen in, for example, Zimbabwe.

I like the taste of meat but I love a combination

gravy + mash = food orgasm

Yorkshire pudding swimming in gravy = yummmmmmmmm

sexy chick in ketchup = uncontrollable licking = broken nose + lawsuit + prison bitch

Olara']I'm a proud omnivore. Just like my father before me and his father before him.

These men have taken oathes of celebacy, just like their fathers before them, and their fathers before them....

Still demonstrates that they can and do hurt us. So I don't pity them besides, they live a good life. All they do is eat, sleep and fuck. Especially in dairy cows, they live for a long time so the farmer can get the most milk out of each cow.They do not live a good life.
The lot of farm animals is an unpleasant one, especially that of dairy cows.
http://www.goveg.com/factoryFarming_cows_dairy.asp


After their calves are taken from them, mother cows are hooked up, several times a day, to machines that take the milk intended for their babies. Using genetic manipulation, powerful hormones, and intensive milking, factory farmers force cows to produce about 10 times as much milk as they naturally would.5 Animals are pumped full of bovine growth hormone (BGH), which contributes to painful inflammation of the udder known as “mastitis.” (BGH is used throughout the U.S., but has been banned in Europe and Canada because of concerns over human health and animal welfare.)6 According to the industry’s own figures, between 30 and 50 percent of dairy cows suffer from mastitis, an extremely painful condition.7

A cow’s natural lifespan is 25 years, but cows used by the dairy industry are killed after only four or five years.8 An industry study reports that by the time they are killed, nearly 40 percent of dairy cows are lame because of the filth, intensive confinement, and the strain of constantly being pregnant and giving milk.9 Dairy cows are turned into soup, companion animal food, or low-grade hamburger meat because their bodies too “spent” to be used for anything else.Eat meat if you want, but don't lie to yourself, or try to justlfy it. It is a cruel, cruel thing to do. Do not try to tell me otherwise.

Jeez, there's a LOT more vegies out there then I thought! Look at that poll!

Vegetarian because I'm picky and it's easier (for me) and I don't like the taste of meat. I only normally talk about it in debates or if someone is cooking me food.

Wow, me too. I don't think I've ever heard of another person like me that didn't eat meat just because they don't like it.

I will admit to eating meat 1-2 times per month though. I think it's a monthly-female thing, about every 28 days I crave a beef taco or a hamburger...

Just out of curiousity, what factors are taken in to these calculations. Do they include things like
1. the need to replace the meat in peoples diets with something else, meaning not all the grain would go to poor nations
2. the need to supplement the nutrients that are in meat, but not grain in these peoples diets, requiring the increased production of foodstuffs containing those nutrients
3. that these crops won't necesarily be growable in the same clime as grain
4. that grain alone won't prevent people in the third world from dying from malnutrition
5. what to do with the livestock that is no longer being taken care of, i.e. fed, given land to live on, by humans, if you expect farmers to care for them out of the goodness of their heart your crazy
6. what will be done with the people employed in the "meat" industry for lack of a better word.
7. why will people grow crops only to have them given away, I'm assuming these people are starving because they can't afford the food
8. what effect will this have on those in the third world trying to make a living growing food

1. Less meat available = less meat wasted. Supermarkets throw out as much as 30% of the meat they have available for sale at any one time. Ok, there's still a deficit of 20% in there, but it's much less than you may have thought. Some resources (ie. land, labour, capital) currently used for pasturing animals can be used for growing alternatives - not all, but a conservative estimate would probably be around 15% of the land (that answers 2. (at least partially) and 6. as well).
2. One pound (half kilo) of standard chicken breast meat costs around £3 near me. One pound of tofu (mmmmmm) will set you back around £3 (again, near me). I'll assume (for the sake of argument) that prices are similar everywhere else (I know they probably aren't, but meh). Now all you need is protein. I ate enough nuts, pulses, etc, etc, when I wasn't vegetarian anyway. It shouldn't be too difficult for others to do the same.
3. Soybeans are very hardy plants, they'll survive and flourish in most places. Mycoprotein can be cultivated at very low cost absolutely anywhere.
4. No, it won't. But any food is better than no food. And it would mean they have the energy to farm their own land...and maybe keep their own animals. Question is, do you have a better solution, that doesn't involve us sending food to them - which would just become tied up in red tape.
5. Don't have a solution for this. But I'd prefer 25% of the global cattle population (which would be about 275 million) die than the 250 million humans.
6. See 1.
7. Government subsidies. Happens enough already, we might as well make them do something worthwhile.
8. They wouldn't have to sell the little food they do produce at very low prices, so they'd have some food themselves.

I'm not saying it's a perfect solution, obviously. For world hunger to really be ended, there are two ways of going about it:
1. Vastly change human nature, so no one takes advantage of anyone else.
or
2. Kill all humans.

1. Less meat available = less meat wasted. Supermarkets throw out as much as 30% of the meat they have available for sale at any one time. Ok, there's still a deficit of 20% in there, but it's much less than you may have thought. Some resources (ie. land, labour, capital) currently used for pasturing animals can be used for growing alternatives - not all, but a conservative estimate would probably be around 15% of the land (that answers 2. (at least partially) and 6. as well).
2. One pound (half kilo) of standard chicken breast meat costs around £3 near me. One pound of tofu (mmmmmm) will set you back around £3 (again, near me). I'll assume (for the sake of argument) that prices are similar everywhere else (I know they probably aren't, but meh). Now all you need is protein. I ate enough nuts, pulses, etc, etc, when I wasn't vegetarian anyway. It shouldn't be too difficult for others to do the same.
3. Soybeans are very hardy plants, they'll survive and flourish in most places. Mycoprotein can be cultivated at very low cost absolutely anywhere.
4. No, it won't. But any food is better than no food. And it would mean they have the energy to farm their own land...and maybe keep their own animals. Question is, do you have a better solution, that doesn't involve us sending food to them - which would just become tied up in red tape.
5. Don't have a solution for this. But I'd prefer 25% of the global cattle population (which would be about 275 million) die than the 250 million humans.
6. See 1.
7. Government subsidies. Happens enough already, we might as well make them do something worthwhile.
8. They wouldn't have to sell the little food they do produce at very low prices, so they'd have some food themselves.

I'm not saying it's a perfect solution, obviously. For world hunger to really be ended, there are two ways of going about it:
1. Vastly change human nature, so no one takes advantage of anyone else.
or
2. Kill all humans.
Thanks, always interesting to learn new things.

Easy. They're animals. They can't think like we can, therefore they're less important than humans and are subject to being exploited for food and clothing.

What about thinking is "better" or "more important" than not thinking?

What about thinking is "better" or "more important" than not thinking?
I have no idea, but I'd love to see DCD ask a hungry lion that.

I don't buy all the "we're better/different/superior/made of 99% lame excuses". Homans, like a wide range of OTHER ANIMALS are designed to sustain themselves on animals as well as other things.

We, unlike other aimals, have the ability to do so in a respectful manner, where we don't cause undue suffering & stress. As that's the case, I do not buy any excuse not to do so. If you find it unethical to cause your fellow humans undue harm, why the fuck is it ok to make other animals suffer?

If you find it unethical to cause your fellow humans undue harm, why the fuck is it ok to make other animals suffer?
because they're not human? They also aren't aware of themselves and if they really were aware wouldn't they try to stop us from eating them? Or a least tell us to stop. untill that happens and animals stop eating eachother I'll keep on eating steak

I eat meat. Many creatures do, not just humans. One could argue that humans can willingly refuse to support the killing of animals for food, but that logic is flawed. I think every vegetarian/vegan should visit this webpage (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill) for elaboration. Saves me some time.

I eat meat. Many creatures do, not just humans. One could argue that humans can willingly refuse to support the killing of animals for food, but that logic is flawed. I think every vegetarian/vegan should visit this webpage (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill) for elaboration. Saves me some time.
You found the site I was trying to remember/reference... YAY!

I love this picture!

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/combine6.gif

untill that happens and animals stop eating eachother I'll keep on eating steak

Oh, the irony... You are aware that steak comes from herbivores, are you not? I assume you'll now be backing out of the pledge you've just made...

Your point is also aburd in the sense that

a) humans are (supposedly) capable of ethical choice, are they not? You can't have it both ways. Either we're just like other animals (which is what you're implying), and thus you can't use the "animals aren't like humans" pseudo-argument, or we are *not*, and in that case your point doesn't hold water

b) humans are *omnivorous*, which means that they can adapt to eating many things. Carnivores cannot. Saying that you expect carnivorous animals to give up eating meat before you do is the height of absurdity.

because they're not human? They also aren't aware of themselves and if they really were aware wouldn't they try to stop us from eating them? Or a least tell us to stop. untill that happens and animals stop eating eachother I'll keep on eating steak
Which part of all the things I've posted didn't you understand? I'll break it down for you nice and simple:

Do I think eating other animals is wrong?: No.
Do I think submitting our pray to lifelong suffering is alright?: No.

Other than that, your argument is completely fucked. If an animal realized you were a predator, it would try to get the hell away from you, or kill you.

If you don't believe me, I suggest you go poke a lion with a fork & see what happens. Please have someone tape it & post it here. Thanks.

*snip* If you don't believe me, I suggest you go poke a lion with a fork & see what happens. Please have someone tape it & post it here. Thanks.

Oh man, walk into a group of lions covered in catnip. It's hilariously fun.

This post is open for debate: do you think killing, then eating animals is immoral? You are also free to talk about being a veganism.
Here's a good article to read on this very subject:

http://web.archive.org/web/20041107084521/http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html

OSU scientist questions the moral basis of a vegan diet (3/5/02)
CORVALLIS - Why is it right to kill the mouse and not the cow?

This question is central to a study of bioethics that explores the moral foundation of a strictly vegetarian, so-called vegan diet. The research, by Steven Davis, a professor of animal science at Oregon State University, adds a new perspective to a millennia-old debate: Is it right for people to kill animals in order to feed themselves?

Davis turns that question on its head. How many animals must die, he asks, in order for people to feed themselves?

To address the question, Davis applies a principle used by moral philosophers to measure the least amount of harm an action might cause, called the Least Harm Principle. ...

Read it all.

If you don't believe me, I suggest you go poke a lion with a fork & see what happens. Please have someone tape it & post it here. Thanks.
here you go.

http://www.thatvideosite.com/view/1016.html :eek:

Here's a good article to read on this very subject


I've read it. The argument is not without merit. But you're entering the very tricky sphere of trying to decide an ethical issue on the basis of numbers. Leaving aside the fact that that is ethically problematic in itself, the argument (or at least the use you suggest making of it) is fundamentally flawed in one major way. At present, animals raised for the slaughter are subjected to horrendous cruelty. To eat meat is to condone (and incite!) that cruelty. This can't just be resolved by a numerical trade-off. So it's not an argument you can use to justify eating meat, at least not as things stand at present.

I've read it. The argument is not without merit. But you're entering the very tricky sphere of trying to decide an ethical issue on the basis of numbers. Leaving aside the fact that that is ethically problematic in itself, the argument (or at least the use you suggest making of it) is fundamentally flawed in one major way. At present, animals raised for the slaughter are subjected to horrendous cruelty. To eat meat is to condone (and incite!) that cruelty. This can't just be resolved by a numerical trade-off. So it's not an argument you can use to justify eating meat, at least not as things stand at present.
I'm not citing it as justification for eating meat, just "anti-justification" of those who would hold Vegisim to be more "moral".

since i'll be leaving work in about 40 minutes and my mind has been on dinner for the past two hours, I'll share some of the meal options i'm considering:

Checkers - Two spicy chicken sandwiches and chili cheese fries

McDonald's - California Cobb salad (with grilled chicken) and double cheeseburger

Qdoba - Steak burrito with spicy cheese sauce

Taco Bell - Half-pound combo burrito, steak taco supreme, and two soft-shell taco supremes

Hardee's - Six-dollar burger and fries

Burger King - Tendercrisp chicken sandwich with extra mayonnaise, Whopper with cheese (no onions)

hehe

Go with Checkers, I love their fries.

Here's a good article to read on this very subject:

Read it all.
Very nice article. It mirrors my opinion quite nicely.
Still, I have no reservations about causing animal deaths, as long as we minimize the impact we have on the environment & don't cause undue suffering & stress.

I can't & don't attempt to defend the current aggri-business. I don't even understand why our law-happy governments don't outlaw shit like it. It doesn't make sense to me.
If our goal isn't to feed the entire human population, why is it desirable for us to run a strictly production maximizing aggri-business?
The first world countries could - and therefore should, in my opinion - feed itself by having an organic & non-subsidised aggri-business.

I do, however, have a feeling that the claims made in the article are blown way out of proportion. For example, if we stop meat, milk & egg production (which are the 3 major animal industries), I've heard claims that our grain farming could be cut back by as much as 1/3.
If we switch to organic production methods, things like genetic mutations, infertility, and massive aggri polution would almost disappear.

How's that for "least harm"? In any case, I wholeheartedly believe we should be aiming for sustainable production & minimum impact.

I'm not citing it as justification for eating meat, just "anti-justification" of those who would hold Vegisim to be more "moral".
Even if you got the same amount of food from livestock as you put in it, the article still wouldn't be an argument against being vegan. As it is, you get between 1-20% (not 10, 1) of the food from an animal as you put into it. The majority of the stuff you feed animals with is harvested crops. That actually turns the article into an argument FOR being vegan.

Nice try though.

Even if you got the same amount of food from livestock as you put in it, the article still wouldn't be an argument against being vegan. Nope. Just an argument against it being inherently more "moral". There could very well be cost/benefit pros to veg-isim, just not "moral" ones (corporate/factory meat aside). Nice try though. What was I trying? ;)

Even though I'm not one for "Revealed Religion" I do like the bit that "God" supposedly told Peter during a bit of fast induced hallucination: "Kill and Eat" (Traef animals)

The injunction wasn't to "Hormones, Feedlot, & Slaughter" but "Kill and Eat". That's what I do. Consequently my diet is about 90% Veg. The CBA of Feedlot Meat vs. Veg + Hunting just doesn't work out for me, so I avoid Feedlot Meat. It's not more "Moral" - unless you want to make Economics into a new system of morality...

Nope. Just an argument against it being inherently more "moral". There could very well be cost/benefit pros to veg-isim, just not "moral" ones (corporate/factory meat aside). What was I trying? ;)
[Re: the article] I'm not citing it as justification for eating meat, just "anti-justification" of those who would hold Vegisim to be more "moral".
Odd question. I would have thought you knew, since you answered it not only in a previous post, bit in the very same post where you pose the question.

Granted, I seem to have overreacted a bit. It's a bad habit of mine. I immediately took it to mean that eating industrial animal products was - at least - as ethical as not eating animal products at all. I can see that's not what you actually meant, so I'd appreciate if you'd let me backpedal a bit :p

What's this about knee-jerk reactions being silly?
Even though I'm not one for "Revealed Religion" I do like the bit that "God" supposedly told Peter during a bit of fast induced hallucination: "Kill and Eat" (Traef animals)

The injunction wasn't to "Hormones, Feedlot, & Slaughter" but "Kill and Eat". That's what I do. Consequently my diet is about 90% Veg. The CBA of Feedlot Meat vs. Veg + Hunting just doesn't work out for me, so I avoid Feedlot Meat. It's not more "Moral" - unless you want to make Economics into a new system of morality...
I think I'm too tired to understand this right now.

Odd question. I would have thought you knew, since you answered it not only in a previous post, bit in the very same post where you pose the question. Thus the Winky ;)
Granted, I seem to have overreacted a bit. It's a bad habit of mine. I immediately took it to mean that eating industrial animal products was - at least - as ethical as not eating animal products at all. I can see that's not what you actually meant, so I'd appreciate if you'd let me backpedal a bit :p

What's this about knee-jerk reactions being silly?

I think I'm too tired to understand this right now.Just my Pre-coffee blathering saying the same things over again with a slightly different slant.

People who are vegetarians, or who are afraid of meat, and that whole ect.
are really messed up.

People who are vegetarians, or who are afraid of meat, and that whole ect.
are really messed up.
Yea. It's true. And people with nations called Pzra wet their beds & are deathly afraid of kidney beans...

People who are vegetarians, or who are afraid of meat, and that whole ect.
are really messed up.

And I think you've just exposed yourself to ridicule in only your second post in the game. Welcome to NationStates. Please be aware that some people here (such as myself) will expect you to express intelligent, rational, well-argued and well thought-out viewpoints, rather than that kind of baseless nonsense, and will mock you if you do not.

Yea. It's true. And people with nations called Pzra wet their beds & are deathly afraid of kidney beans...
LOL

And I think you've just exposed yourself to ridicule in only your second post in the game. Welcome to NationStates. Please be aware that some people here (such as myself) will expect you to express intelligent, rational, well-argued and well thought-out viewpoints, rather than that kind of baseless nonsense, and will mock you if you do not.
Too late :D

i'd eat those animals who died nataurally - or criminals on death row , i'm a bizare vegie :)

Too late :D

Hehe, yes, you beat me to it...

But my words were retroactively prophetic. :D

I despise vegans. Look, if u believ in a higher power (like God(s)) then it's pretty obvious that they created animasl for you to eat. If you are an atheist, look, you evolved as a meat-eater. SO EAT MEAT! IT"S GOOD TASTING AND NICE!

What about thinking is "better" or "more important" than not thinking?
Because if something doesn't think it's not much more than a robot or a machine. I have no problem destroying a computer if doing so puts food on my plate.

I despise vegans. Look, if u believ in a higher power (like God(s)) then it's pretty obvious that they created animasl for you to eat. If you are an atheist, look, you evolved as a meat-eater. SO EAT MEAT! IT"S GOOD TASTING AND NICE!

I refer you to post #132 of this thread. Please substitute "43" for "2". Have a nice day, and feel free to come back when you know how to think.

Because if something doesn't think it's not much more than a robot or a machine.

So feelings count for... what?

If you find it unethical to cause your fellow humans undue harm, why the fuck is it ok to make other animals suffer?

Most animals don't process pain like humans do, all they have are input and response mechanisms, not an understanding of being hurt.

I don't torture animals, but not because of an ethical dilemma.

I was a vegetarian for 5 years and a vegan for 1 before I got pregnant and started craving chili dogs. I cried all day, my husband said "quit crying and go get a chili dog" I did. He was so happy he took me out to a steak dinner. One bite of New York Strip, and my urge to eat meat came back. I am no longer a vegetarian. ;)

The story of what prompted me to become a vegetarian is really long so to be short with it someone slaughtered my pet cow in front of me, and then tried to feed it to me for dinner. :( I was traumatized.
I grew up on a farm, too. We all knew where our meat came from. But Dad never butchered any of the favorites. He 'sold' them to a neighbor. Anyhow the last we saw of them was in the trailer heading down the road, as far as we kids knew, anyway.

I don't mind vegan and vegetarian food, but I cannot imagine not being able to eat a rack of ribs or a roasted chicken.

More animals are killed by harvesting a field of wheat, anyway.

I'm an omnivore, though I adore steak. I have absolutely no problem with the slaughter of an animal for me to eat, and I honestly can't say I care that much about the conditions they're purported to be raised in, so long as the meat is tasty and edible when it gets to me.

I don't care what people eat...so long as it isn't vegan meatloaf and vegan meatballs and vegan chicken pot pie and a whole plethora of other vegan foods with meat implied in the name. Those foods are an abomination and I curse the day that anybody ever thought of them. The words vegan and meat are total opposites and should not be implied together. It should be called veganloaf or veggieloaf. Meat should not be implied if there is no meat. It is completely senseless to have meat in the name if there is no meat.

Even worse than the food oxymorons are the morally opposed I think I'm better than you vegans. That's not to say that all vegans who became vegan for moral issue are I think I'm better than you vegans. The I think I'm better than you vegans are anything but morally superior and their arrogance should be a clear indication of such. They really piss me off when they try to convert me and say that meat is murder and whatnot.

But the thing that pisses me off more than that are people who don’t finish their meal and end up throwing away their leftovers. Such wastefulness is quite a shame and I hate it when people do it. I hate it even more when they barely touch their food and end up throwing it away.


But in general eating isn’t really something that we should have to put so much thought into. If you like eating vegetables and you’ve decided that’s all you’re going to eat, than that’s a preference. If you don’t eat meat because of some moral reasons than it can become an obsession.

In response to the poll question: butcher. :)

That's right.. I breathe in bone fragments as they fly off the bandsaw, all day, every day (except Fridays, my day off). So I'm a meat eater, as well as inhaler, and probably other methods of ingestion too.. I probably cut a dozen head of cattle in to neat, convenient, edible parts every day.. and I'm only just starting out as an assistant.. soon I get real autonomy and my own saw station, which is gonna be sweet.

Biological Imperative!

Did you know that one of the reasons that Pandas are endangered is because they do not have a vegetarian digestive tract. They are designed to be omnivores (just like us) and they process high cellulose foods (like Bamboo) very poorly. They would do better off eating high carbohydrate foods like wheat. In addition they will scavenge meat if they can find it.

They need to eat solidly for 2 years just to build up enough energy reserved to have sex!!

In addition (this may already have been posted) a nutritionist in the UK has recently said that to feed a child under the age of 5 on a vegan diet is tantamount to child abuse. While this is a somewhat inflammatory comment it's point is somewhat valid, a growing child cannot receive all the essential amino acids (i.e. ones it cannot synthesise) it needs per day from a purely vegan diet.

(Not because an appropriate selection of nuts etc cannot provide all of the essential amino acids but purely because of the quanitities required and the high oil etc content of nuts)

Well, for me, the issue isn't morality, I just can't stand the taste of meat; its just so bloody aweful and the pungent odour when cooking it - ewww.

Oh, and this comes from a gay vegetarian who works at a butchery packing meat :P

I have no qualms if a person wishes to eat meat, but the fact is, it isn't 'my bag baby'(tm)

I eat meat because i understand if i didnt eat them those Bastards would eat me.

I also understand that the Vegetables think as much as meat so the Vegos should leave the grenns alone too.

i'm an omnivore

did'nt see that option:(

Meat eater. But been thinkin about going vegetarian.

Meat eater. But been thinkin about going vegetarian.
Fine more Meat for me to eat.

I eat meat because i understand if i didnt eat them those Bastards would eat me.

I also understand that the Vegetables think as much as meat so the Vegos should leave the grenns alone too.

God, another one... Trying to display yourself as some sort of parody, or are those genuinely idiotic statements?

And yes, I'm sure you run a tremendous risk of being eaten by a cow or a sheep; herbivores are renowned as vicious man-eaters, after all. Or you could be pecked to death by an angry hen.

God, another one... Trying to display yourself as some sort of parody, or are those genuinely idiotic statements?

And yes, I'm sure you run a tremendous risk of being eaten by a cow or a sheep; herbivores are renowned as vicious man-eaters, after all. Or you could be pecked to death by an angry hen.
Neither.

When Cows get a Blood Lust the world better look out.
They can drive Cars you know.

When I harvest a deer, from the local forest, I smear the still warm blood all over my face to ensure that I mur...harvest another deer next season, and also to commune with the deer gaurdian. I then gut it, making sure to avoid the piss sack. After hefting it up onto the bed of a pickup, and taking the pickture with various members of the family to show that they "slau...harvested" a deer, pa and I bring it to the local butcher.

4-6 business days later, we enjoy venison burgers, sausage, and other delicacies. Am I a meat eater? Oh yeah, life wouldn't be as good as it is if I couldn't gorge myself on the flesh of other fauna.

If we didn't kill 'em, they'd be gunnin' for us ya' know! That, or dying of famine and diseases. However, I feel that the feed vats present in most meat farms are inhumane. I like my meat a little tough, and not so fatty, if ya' know what I mean! Free roamin'....

Humans are omnivorous, check the teeth. I don't hunt, but will glady grill a steak or two, in fact, good idea - grilled T-bones tonight!

Neither.

When Cows get a Blood Lust the world better look out.
They can drive Cars you know.

Hehe... All right. You've redeemed yourself. ;)

God, another one... Trying to display yourself as some sort of parody, or are those genuinely idiotic statements?

And yes, I'm sure you run a tremendous risk of being eaten by a cow or a sheep; herbivores are renowned as vicious man-eaters, after all. Or you could be pecked to death by an angry hen.
Or snorted-up by a pig!

Wow....

This is quite an old thread.

Killing animals to eat and survive is part of the circle of life. Personally, I'd like to practice ways to honor the animal for his sacrifice. Because of its death, I can live.

As for veggies, you kill millions of animals during the harvesting process, so dont get on your high horse thinking you are more moral than I.

I don't eat most meat as I can't stand the taste, texture and smell. I like fish and have no problem with chicken (and similar) meat.

Wow....

This is quite an old thread.
S-s-sony, I'm as ashs young ashs a OH! Help me up boy."