NationStates Jolt Archive

I've recently become rather fascinated with collective memory, or folk lore if you want.
The reason for that was my grandmother, who told me about a nursery rhyme the other day that she had learned from her own grandmother:

"Franzosen sind gekommen,
Haben alles mitgenommen,
Haben Tueren eingeschlagen,
Haben Blei herausgetragen,
Haben Kugeln draus gegossen,
Haben Bauern mit erschossen"

(translates as :
"The French came,
Took away everything,
Kicked in doors,
Carried out lead,
Formed bullets with it
And shot the peasants with them")

Now, that is a puzzling piece of folk lore, and it set me thinking and going through my knowledge of history. The last time that the French occupied the part of Germany I'm from was during the Napoleonic wars, at the very begining of the 19th century, a good 200 years ago.
Yet a rhyme survived in the tradition and lore of the rural population of that area.

Have any of you come across similar examples of collective memory of a certain group of people?

Well, Im not sure how common it is everywhere else, but the old childrens song "Ring around the Rosie", I can remember singing and doing the dancy bit when very young.

Most people know that the song comes from Europe, during the plague.

So, thats centuries ago, and across continents.

Well, Im not sure how common it is everywhere else, but the old childrens song "Ring around the Rosie", I can remember singing and doing the dancy bit when very young.

Most people know that the song comes from Europe, during the plague.

So, thats centuries ago, and across continents.

In fact - the 'Ring around the Rosie' song is likely a history OF the plague... the ring of buboes in a 'rosette' formation; the pockets full of flowers (believed to cure the plague by 'cleaning' the air... or maybe just to offset the stench of plague-ridden flesh); the 'sneezing' being the sickness itself in it's terminal stage; and then, we all fall down.

The song is basically a warning (to steer clear of the 'rings of roses')... with the 'moral' spelled out.

Mary Mary quite contrary, and three blind mice, are both - purportedly- about Mary tudor and the protestant martyrs.

Apparently French children still sing about Marlborough.

"Ashes, ashes, we all fall down!"
or
"Burn the corpses, burn the corpses, we're all gonna die!"

Oh, and Disney.

It may help a bit if you could quote the texts, as some of us (me, for example) might not know these rhymes.

Whilst researching the account of a 16th century Italian miller, Mennocio, who held highly blasphemous beliefs, I found something very interesting. He said that the universe was initially a great sludge, which was churned to eventually become solid, like cheese. From this "cheese", maggots grew - the greatest of which was God and the rest angels.

The thing was that this creation myth has turned up in other various obscure places around the world, even as far as islands around India, but was rarely recorded. A 17th century English theologian cited it, who had no knowledge of either Mennocio or the Indian isles. It may be a coincidence, but it is possible that there was a great oral tradition of this myth which spread to certain parts of the world but was just hardly ever written down.

Dunno if it's relevant, but I found it interesting anyway.

By the way, that thing about "Ring a ring a rosie" being about the plague has being condemned by many experts as a simple urban myth - never used to be about the plague, but nowadays people have made it so.

By the way, that thing about "Ring a ring a rosie" being about the plague has being condemned by many experts as a simple urban myth - never used to be about the plague, but nowadays people have made it so.
Darn it!

Anyhow, about myths, there's tons. Great floods, and the world being created out of chaos, whether it be from a birds egg, or by a deity, etc.

Because the day is almost upon us, and I quite like it.

"Remember, remember, the fifth of November, gunpowder treason and plot.
I see no reason why the gunpowder treason should ever be forgot.
Guy Fawkes, Guy Fawkes, 'twas his intent to blow up the King and the Parliament.
Three score barrels of powder below, Poor old England to overthrow:
By God's providence he was catch'd With a dark lantern and burning match.
Holloa boys, holloa boys, make the bells ring.
Holloa boys, holloa boys, God save the King!
Hip hip hoorah!

A penny loaf to feed the Pope.
A farthing o' cheese to choke him.
A pint of beer to rinse it down.
A faggot of sticks to burn him.
Burn him in a tub of tar.
Burn him like a blazing star.
Burn his body from his head.
Then we'll say ol' Pope is dead.
Hip hip hoorah! Hip hip hoorah!"

And some people tried to tell that November 5th wasn't about saying "Watch out for those damn Catholics. They'll blow up the king given half the chance."

Incidentally, when I was at school we weren't allowed to "celebrate" Guy Fawkes night. They thought it was in bad taste for a catholic school to make catholic children celebrate the burning of a catholic martyr.

Oh an don't forget the universality of "flood" myths or manking analogies to the universe coming from inside an egg or being born from some mystical creature. As for collective memory werewolves are a very interesting area to research.

Oh an don't forget the universality of "flood" myths or manking analogies to the universe coming from inside an egg or being born from some mystical creature. As for collective memory werewolves are a very interesting area to research.

Werewolves? In what way?

Oh an don't forget the universality of "flood" myths or manking analogies to the universe coming from inside an egg or being born from some mystical creature. As for collective memory werewolves are a very interesting area to research.
Hmm? I believe that is a critique.

Just wiki it. Creation myths from all around the world. It starts with chaos, that was my point. Then something happens, whether it be the egg thing, or Gaia being convieved out of the chaos. Nevertheless, all imply that there is a greater force at wrok. I was comparing Greek and Finnish creation myth to be precise.

Werewolves are interesting folk lore, but there is not much "Collective Memory." Unless I would say that the Greeks blieved in a werewolf, Lycanthrope, after a king, who could turn into a wolf. Germanic peoples believed that berserkers could turn into beasts. And the idea of werewolves still lingers today so its, oh my gosh!: Collective Memory.

But just because the topic first at hand was rymes and whatnot, does not exclude other things that qualify as Collective Memory. I'm sorry I didn't have a childhood, or I would have just stayed with that.

Apart from the creation myths, the bible is in fact an interesting source of collective memory.
The stories have been altered and exaggerated as is always the case in oral tradition until it's finally written down, but on close inspection, it's easily possible to link the story of Noah and his arc to the massive inundations occuring at the end of the last ice age.

Have any of you come across similar examples of collective memory of a certain group of people?
I believe that the general distrust and poking fun of Russians in Eastern Europe and Finland qualifies also. There might be stories, but I haven't heard any.

Werewolves? In what way?

They're a common part of central European folklore and mythology and the image of the were-person has been transmitted from Greece to central and northern Europe and is present in just about every civilisation, China, the Aboriginals of Australia and the native American peoples etc etc.

They're a common part of central European folklore and mythology and the image of the were-person has been transmitted from Greece to central and northern Europe and is present in just about every civilisation, China, the Aboriginals of Australia and the native American peoples etc etc.

The 'patterns' of sexuality and aggression peak around full and new moons. In fact, popular lore holds that fertility peaks on the full moon.

Accidents and crime reports ALSO peak around the full moon. Even 'lunacy' just means the madness of the moon.

It seems likely that our 'werewolf' myths originate in clearly observed behaviour changes, the 'man' becoming more 'animal' with the coming of the moon.

The 'patterns' of sexuality and aggression peak around full and new moons. In fact, popular lore holds that fertility peaks on the full moon.

Accidents and crime reports ALSO peak around the full moon. Even 'lunacy' just means the madness of the moon.

It seems likely that our 'werewolf' myths originate in clearly observed behaviour changes, the 'man' becoming more 'animal' with the coming of the moon.

I can't remember wolves ever being a symbol or abstract connected with fertility, though.

Wolves are a symbol of fertility though, or if not fertility, then at least sexual desire.

Supposedly, there is a version (the non-disney version) of little red riding hood where she gets raped by the wolf (because the wolf has that symbolism).

Here's the french thing about Marlborough going to war.


Malbrough s'en va-t-en guerre
Mironton ton ton mirontaine
Malbrough s'en va-t-en guerre
Ne sait quand reviendra (ter)

Il reviendra à Pâques
Mironton ton ton mirontaine
Il reviendra à Pâques
Ou à la Trinité (ter)

Mary Mary


Mary Mary quite contrary,
How does your garden grow?
With silver bells and cockle shells
And pretty maids all in a row.

Three Blind Mice.


Three blind mice, three blind mice,
See how they run, see how they run,
They all ran after the farmer's wife,
Who cut off their tails with a carving knife,
Did you ever see such a thing in your life,
As three blind mice?

All self explaintory really except for three blind mice. But once you are told that the farmer's wife = Mary Tudor, and that the blind mice are protestant nobles who refused to renounce their faith, it makes sense.

I can't remember wolves ever being a symbol or abstract connected with fertility, though.

Wolves are not the only form these things have taken. Usually it is a dominant animal, most often, the most powerful predator. For most of Europe, for most of recent history, this has probably been the wolf.

What is important, is that it is something very 'feral', I suspect... something with 'hungers'.

Also - there are a lot of myths centred around people being raised by wolves... I guess there is a perceived proximity between man and wolf.

Wolves are a symbol of fertility though, or if not fertility, then at least sexual desire.

Supposedly, there is a version (the non-disney version) of little red riding hood where she gets raped by the wolf (because the wolf has that symbolism).

There is a movie from a few years ago (The Company of Wolves, I believe) which explores some of the link between the Red Riding Hood story and the onset of menstruation, and female sexuality.

I recall reading that the ORIGINAL version of the Red Riding Hood myth (certainly NOT the Disney sop), had the wolf killing the grandmother, and feeding her meat to Red Riding Hood, with her blood for wine, before wolf AND girl adjourn to the bed...