NationStates Jolt Archive

Someone suggested something I find a little difficult to believe so I'll just find out what people here believe

Basically, if you believe the universe was created was God Himself part of that creation?

EDIT: I was intentionally vague. The second and first choices would include ID, the 7-day Creation (six technically), creation of the universe with all its current laws and letting it become what it is today, etc.

Someone suggested something I find a little difficult to believe so I'll just find out what people here believe

I suppose it depends on what said person said to make you want to ask such a delightful bunch of debating maniacs?

EDIT:

Oh, wow. I posted BEFORE he added the Poll! Hoorah!

Do you mean INCLUDING HIMSELF, as in he Created Himself on the day he Created the Universe? If so I'll have to choose excluding....

Someone suggested something I find a little difficult to believe so I'll just find out what people here believe

what did your friend tell you that are hhaving trouble with?

personaly i think that God created the universe,

I suppose it depends on what said person said to make you want to ask such a delightful bunch of debating maniacs?

EDIT:

Oh, wow. I posted BEFORE he added the Poll! Hoorah!

He said most people believe that God created Himself with the universe, which I've never heard said before by any theist. But perhaps, I just know specific theists. It's also not supported by scripture but hey who said Christians always follow scripture. So, I figured I'd just ask.

He said most people believe that God created Himself with the universe, which I've never heard said before by any theist. But perhaps, I just know specific theists. It's also not supported by scripture but hey who said Christians always follow scripture. So, I figured I'd just ask.

Oh, well, I suppose I'll choose Option Number 2, God Created the Universe EXCLUDING Himself. I believe He existed before Creation.

Anywho, thats my personal belief.

I suppose it depends on what said person said to make you want to ask such a delightful bunch of debating maniacs?

EDIT:

Oh, wow. I posted BEFORE he added the Poll! Hoorah!

Do you mean INCLUDING HIMSELF, as in he Created Himself on the day he Created the Universe? If so I'll have to choose excluding....

Actually, it means he created Himself, the relationship to the timing of creating the Universe is irrelevant.

He said most people believe that God created Himself with the universe, which I've never heard said before by any theist. But perhaps, I just know specific theists. It's also not supported by scripture but hey who said Christians always follow scripture. So, I figured I'd just ask.
iam trying to figure out how something that hypotheticaly did not exist created its self......hmmmm

I donot know hwo the universe is created. But I know one thing. That the excistence of a deity is irelivant. Why? Because if God is omnipresent then he must occupy every point of the universe at once. However, since we know no two peices of matter can occupt the exact same area of space at the exact same time we must assume that either God does not excist or that God is the universe itself. If the later, then worshiping god makes as much sense as my foot worshipping me.

Actually, it means he created Himself, the relationship to the timing of creating the Universe is irrelevant.

Wait, I chose option Number 2 in contrast to the opinion that I understood that TIMING was a factor. I sincerely hope I didn't make a mistake by doing otherwise contrast to what you wanted your poll question to include.

Eeesh....

Wait, I chose option Number 2 in contrast to the opinion that I understood that TIMING was a factor. I sincerely hope I didn't make a mistake by doing otherwise contrast to what you wanted your poll question to include.

Eeesh....

Do you believe God created Himself? I've never actually anyone argue that, but I'd be interested to find out that people believe that.

Do you believe God created Himself? I've never actually anyone argue that, but I'd be interested to find out that people believe that.
Why not. There's no reason to keep a theory that makes some sense when one based entirely on a flight of fancy and even more insane and illogical excists to take it's place.

The Big Boom theory.

He said most people believe that God created Himself with the universe,
I never said that, liar.

Thus, your poll is a joke based on a strawman.

I never said that, liar.

Thus, your poll is a joke based on a strawman.

Let's see if I'm lying. I love when people make this claim when I can just quote them.

We were talking abou the belief that some theists believe that the universe was created by God. Here is what he said.

Again, you define both the concept of the universe (as including everything) and God (as being outside the universe) and then claim that he can't exist because you made him logically contradictory
I don't define it that way; the theists do.

It stands on its own, but in case anyone missed it that means that if the universe is everything and God created everything then God created Himself as well, unless I'm just a little confused about what EVERYTHING is.

Hard to deny what you wrote, huh?

In case anyone thinks I'm misrepresenting this, I'll show you a couple of other posts.

What is God mutually exclusive of?
Its properties and claimed things its done, like create the universe, which would create the proposition of existence prior to existence, which cannot happen.

Just so everyone follows he has just redefined existence to not include God (prior to existence) then said it is contradictory to say God exists. Thus God can't exist. It's an amusing thread in which he throws science under the wheels of his train of thought.

Let's see if I'm lying.
And you are.


I love when people make this claim when I can just quote them.
G'head. My quote clearly shows that I state that the theists believe that god isn't part of the universe; that I'm not imposing this definition on them--they are defining it that way themselves.

Unless, of course, you want to lie and say that it doesn't say that.


It stands on its own, but in case anyone missed it that means that if the universe is everything and God created everything then God created Himself as well, unless I'm just a little confused about what EVERYTHING is.
That's not what it says. You need to take a refresher course in Reading Comprehension.

Poor you.

Oh, and if any theist would like to provide the ontology for "apart from the universe", they are welcome to do so. Until then, they basically state that existence existence prior to existence existing. That makes no sense.

Sorry to throw some logic and reasoning on you like that.

Oh wait--I'm not sorry to do that.

And you are.

G'head. My quote clearly shows that I state that the theists believe that god isn't part of the universe; that I'm not imposing this definition on them--they are defining it that way themselves.

The point is that they don't include EVERYTHING in the universe or did you miss that part? The universe as a scientific concept does not include anything supernatural (science avoids the supernatural as it is unfalsifiable) and the definition I mentioned in the thread when theist refer to the creation of the universe does not include the supernatural. To suggest it does is to suggest that the basis is logically contradictory. Changing the argument to argue against it is called a strawman. Regardless, this thread proves my point.

Unless, of course, you want to lie and say that it doesn't say that.

That's not what it says. You need to take a refresher course in Reading Comprehension.

Poor you.

That's okay I added more posts to show them that what I claim is actually found in your posts.

Generally, it's a pretty weak method of argument to just pretend you meant something else when you're shown to be wrong, but at least you're admitting your original premise by which you claim people's definition of God is logically inconsistent was fallacious. That shows learning and that's more than some that have argued your point.

That's okay I added more posts to show them that what I claim is actually found in your posts.
That's ok, because what you claim isn't what is found in my posts. All you've done is create a strawman.

Heeheehee.

That's ok, because what you claim isn't what is found in my posts. All you've done is create a strawman.

Heeheehee.

I posted them. People can read them for themselves.

Oh, wait, I know why you think I'm lying. I'm sorry. You think I'm claiming there's science in your posts. No, don't worry everyone here can see there is no science in your posts. I wasn't suggesting otherwise.

Do you believe God created Himself? I've never actually anyone argue that, but I'd be interested to find out that people believe that.

Well, I suppose I really couldn't put that forward. I wouldn't know. All I know is that God is there, and that He Created me. How he came into being is a mystery, but I'll eventually find out one day.

I believe the universe came into existence on the 31st of march 1984.

I believe the universe came into existence on the 31st of march 1984.Oh come one, really.. The universe will be created tomorrow at 9:23 PM. We don't actually exist yet, we just think we do; it's just the memories of the us to come.

There is no god at all.

There is no god at all.Just a flying spaghetti monster..

I hope God has a sense of humor.

I got bored and decided to do an arts-and-crafts project. :p

Someone suggested something I find a little difficult to believe so I'll just find out what people here believe

Basically, if you believe the universe was created was God Himself part of that creation?
It's not an unusal or unpopular concept, the idea that the supernatural creates through magic. It makes more sense than that idea that god is a part of his creation, and therefore natural and supernatural at the same time.

Personally, I believe the universe has always been and always will be.
EDIT:He said most people believe that God created Himself with the universe, which I've never heard said before by any theist.
Ah, that's another kettle of fish. I don't think I've heard that one before, either.

Just a flying spaghetti monster..


Will the Universe end when someone eats it?

Just a flying spaghetti monster..

I hope God has a sense of humor.

Ah, so you, too, have been touched by his noodly appendage... :D

I donot know hwo the universe is created. But I know one thing. That the excistence of a deity is irelivant. Why? Because if God is omnipresent then he must occupy every point of the universe at once. However, since we know no two peices of matter can occupt the exact same area of space at the exact same time we must assume that either God does not excist or that God is the universe itself.
...or that God is not made of matter...

If the later, then worshiping god makes as much sense as my foot worshipping me.
You don't care for the universe you live in?

Will the Universe end when someone eats it?I think he regenerates. Besides, he's generally invisible, just manipulating everything with his noodly appendages, so scientific results come out as they should, and miracles turn up where they should (and not vise versa)

I think he regenerates.
Regurgitates, more likely. ;)

beware the coming of the great white handkerchief!

does that answer your question? ;)

beware the coming of the great white handkerchief!

does that answer your question? ;)
Someone is surrendering? ;)

I ent saying anything until we know for sure (your never wrong if you don't accept or deny;) )

I quite like the idea that some object broke the laws of physics creating the big bang though that raises some questions it sort of answers them too (you might want to look into that before replying)

Someone is surrendering? ;)
lol not quite :p

hint: its an oh-so-subtle reference to a certain popular sci-fi book :)

I sneezed, and it was good. And thusly the universe exists.
Simple, eh?

I posted them. People can read them for themselves.

Oh, wait, I know why you think I'm lying.
Because you are.

...or that God is not made of matter...
Hmm! That implies that God is some sort of scalar field. I'm off to look for the God particle, then! :D

beware the coming of the great white handkerchief!

does that answer your question? ;)

The Great Green Arkleseizure.

G'head. My quote clearly shows that I state that the theists believe that god isn't part of the universe; that I'm not imposing this definition on them--they are defining it that way themselves.

Unless, of course, you want to lie and say that it doesn't say that.

How about this quote -

Create a survey and let's see how many theists are including God when they say He created the universe (assuming they are of the theists that define God as the creator of the universe).
Most of them.

He said most people believe that God created Himself with the universe,

I never said that, liar.

Thus, your poll is a joke based on a strawman.

Interesting, that is. My poll that was created as a result of a post in another thread that matches exactly what I said the poll was going to say is "a joke based on a strawman" by a "liar". Hmmmm... I'll just let people read it for themselves.

My 2 cents (or ~£0.01 as we call it over here):

The universe WAS managed by an intelligence up until the homo sapiens race evolved, and then something happened and we started devolving. :)

And you are.

G'head. My quote clearly shows that I state that the theists believe that god isn't part of the universe; that I'm not imposing this definition on them--they are defining it that way themselves.
Unless, of course, you want to lie and say that it doesn't say that.

That's not what it says. You need to take a refresher course in Reading Comprehension.

Poor you.

Oh, and if any theist would like to provide the ontology for "apart from the universe", they are welcome to do so. Until then, they basically state that existence existence prior to existence existing. That makes no sense.

Sorry to throw some logic and reasoning on you like that.

Oh wait--I'm not sorry to do that.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9861011&postcount=1657
Once again, you've lied.

Address what he wrote, and not what you think he wrote.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9859758&postcount=13
I never said that, liar.

Thus, your poll is a joke based on a strawman.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9860937&postcount=36
Because you are.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9861022&postcount=1660
Liar.

Keep lying about me; that will impress me.
So you've continued on, denying a moderators judgement, and doing the same exact thing that the other guy was forum banned for. Continuing to call someone a liar while not responding to a single part of their argument is horrible form, and becomes actionable when you continue to do so.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9854822&postcount=1577
You banned him for 3 days for that?

Way to be power-mad.

(And if you do the same to me for this, that just proves my point all the more.)
He isn't going to. I am. Way to taunt the moderators, while committing the same acts that you know will get you the same punishment. Come back in 3 days when you've learned your lesson.

This is a real pain in the ass to argue...

The atheist is forced to suppose first that energy simple exists, then he must suppose that 'force' simply exists (the total of all universal constants that govern matter and energy, the Laws as we know them) and then he must suppose that force acted upon energy and that energy obeyed. He has to suppose these things because he exists and his existence relies on those suppositions.

On the other hand, the theist supposes that God simply exists for the exact same reasons as the atheist. The supposition made is that a power that is omnipotent, a consciousness that is omniscient, and a being that is omnipresent pre-existed Creation as we know it and enacted the Laws (force) which Creation (energy) must obey.

Neither gains a scrap of ground because at the end of the day we are both forced to make suppositions to explain our existence based solely on the fact that we exist. Of course, after that point things sort of branch out in completely different directions… on one hand the atheist chooses to place is faith in ‘chance’ and on the other hand the theist chooses to place is faith in ‘purpose’ but still… neither gains a scrap of ground.

You don't care for the universe you live in?Techinically the universe I'm apart of. Hence my point.

Well, once I had really bad abdominal pains, and then after I went to the toilet, there was the universe, in my toilet.

Well, once I had really bad abdominal pains, and then after I went to the toilet, there was the universe, in my toilet.

Well, that explains that smell in my car I can't get rid of.

i am an atheist. as such i dont believe that any sort of god exists. so im approaching this on an "idea" level not on any kind of personal belief


this is a notion that has never entered my head. im thinking that god as GOD didnt exist before he made the universe. before that he would have to be in some unrecognizable form. when he started the universe (with the big bang) he set down a series of extremely complex physical laws that required him to have a whole new kind of existance, ie, GOD.

we cant know what exists outside of the bubble of the universe. perhaps there are other potential gods who could, if they chose, create a whole universe of their own with different physical laws where THEY would be GOD. we will always be utterly excluded from those universes (if they ever exist)

*bump*

curious about getting more replies to the poll.

im sooo glad atheists are a majority here :) i hope to go-... i wont say it. i just hope that this is a reflection of the world. and that all those polls are wrong and this one is right! ... hey were all alowed to believe in something very unlikely arnt we? ;)

God set up natural laws, then made sure the universe created itself. I therefore cannot take any of your answers. This is my belief.

im sooo glad atheists are a majority here :) i hope to go-... i wont say it. i just hope that this is a reflection of the world. and that all those polls are wrong and this one is right! ... hey were all alowed to believe in something very unlikely arnt we? ;)

Yes, so long as you don't force us to teach it in schools.

God set up natural laws, then made sure the universe created itself. I therefore cannot take any of your answers. This is my belief.

That's actually the same belief I have and would be encapsulated in the first one. This is about being responsible for creation, if he created the rules by which humans came into being he created humans, just not directly. Anyway, the point is do you think God created God as well as setting the rules by which the universe came into being or not. That's what I'm trying to find out, the third option was just to keep the thread from being hijacked by atheists, not because I dislike them or their points, but because I was looking for an answer to the question.