NationStates Jolt Archive

This is sometimes a bit of an issue in Germany, although at the moment all parties pretty much agree.

How do you think Germany should see itself in the world? What's the role of the EU and the UN in this?
How do you see the relationship between Germany and the US in years to come?

At this point German Governments have taken steps to take more of a leadership role in the world, paying more to the UN, getting very involved both in the Darfur Crisis and in the negotiations with Iran, as well as sending peacekeepers all over the place.
German Special Forces have recently also taken part in actual combat operations in Afghanistan.
In return many felt it was time to go for a permanent seat in the UNSC (although it looks like it ain't gonna happen any time soon) - and promptly critics in many German papers were arguing against "world power" dreams...

Democratic, strict on protecting human rights.

Democratic, strict on protecting human rights.
And how should that manifest itself as far as foreign policy is concerned?

Go back to being a crazy imperialist wannabe. Think of how many technological innovations were made in WW2!

Go back to being a crazy imperialist wannabe. Think of how many technological innovations were made in WW2!
Not going to happen. Not ever. :rolleyes:

Try and not make those comments, okay, it really is only insulting. As far as new technology is concerned, German firms are still doing just that, and even weapons manufacture and development is still a big industry in the country.
Even without having to murder millions of innocent people.

So now I ask you: What do you really think should be Germany's role in the future?

And how should that manifest itself as far as foreign policy is concerned?
emm.. was there more than.. um.. shit if I know.. sowwie.:(

Germany should try to have more international influence as a defender of democracy, it's the EU's largest state afterall. But I think Germany should never get a permanent seat at the UN Security Council (Same goes for Japan).

Not going to happen. Not ever. :rolleyes:

Ever hear of that thing they used to call "The War to end all Wars"? How's that going so far?

Try and not make those comments, okay, it really is only insulting. As far as new technology is concerned, German firms are still doing just that, and even weapons manufacture and development is still a big industry in the country.
Even without having to murder millions of innocent people.

Who the hell did Kaiser Wilhelm try and murder?

So now I ask you: What do you really think should be Germany's role in the future?

Seriously? Well, they should be the driving force behind European rejuvenation in the face of increasing industrialisation in places like India and China. That is if they can break free of the damaging economic effects of the Euro.

Germany should try to have more international influence as a defender of democracy, it's the EU's largest state afterall. But I think Germany should never get a permanent seat at the UN Security Council (Same goes for Japan).

Out of interest, why?

I think the German people should decide the direction they want their country to take. I also think that German-American relations will improve.

and no "rocket clubs" !

Out of interest, why?
Because it's very important as a symbolical and practical punishment for WWII. Remember that the UN wouldn't have been created if they had won the war.

But.. but... forming clubs to raise funds for military means is a national trait of ours! And now there´s you, forbidding all rocket clubs! Dammit!

On topic: I think Germany should continue being a driving force in the European unification - not with such a thing as a german-french core, but rather as the country right in the middle of the continent, kinda like one big crossroads.
IMO, it´s high time Europeans get rid of that petty nationalism, and Germany most certainly is the post-nationalistic avantgarde in Europe, due to the taboo lying on things like national pride after WWII, even though there has been a massive "rediscovery of national values" in the past decade.

Because it's very important as a symbolical and practical punishment for WWII. Remember that the UN wouldn't have been created if they had won the war.

I thought it might have been that. I know the atrocities of WW2 were great, but if the Russians get a seat, this argument holds little water. There wouldn't be a UN if the Russians had won the war (as opposed to helping win the war)

I thought it might have been that. I know the atrocities of WW2 were great, but if the Russians get a seat, this argument holds little water. There wouldn't be a UN if the Russians had won the war (as opposed to helping win the war)
I partially agree. But I think that the USSR really won the war rather than just helping. They pulled about 10 countries + eastern Germany into their political sphere and imposed the communist system there. That to me was a huge victory for the USSR.

Because it's very important as a symbolical and practical punishment for WWII. Remember that the UN wouldn't have been created if they had won the war.
You realise that you're punishing a completely different country these days?

I partially agree. But I think that the USSR really won the war rather than just helping. They pulled about 10 countries + eastern Germany into their political sphere and imposed the communist system there. That to me was a huge victory for the USSR.

You're a "communist"?

You realise that you're punishing a completely different country these days?

But don't forget: ZOMG H0l0caust!! GErmanee is teh eV1LL!!one hundred and eleven11! NaZis!11

But don't forget: ZOMG H0l0caust!! GErmanee is teh eV1LL!!one hundred and eleven11! NaZis!11
ZOMG!1!!! p351Cu5510n!!11!shift+1!!!!! kwik! pr3t3nd t00 be ch1$t1an!11!!!forty-two!!!!!

Call the commies! They'll ally with tehm, kill their own skilled comanders, get invaded by their new ally tehn save us.

You realise that you're punishing a completely different country these days?
I know, Germany today is very, very different from the past. I used to live in a house with a lot of germans, and met many others here in Lisbon, and almost all of them were really nice people, which initially surprised me because most people here think that germans are rather cold, which is not true. Also a lot of other misconceptions people have about Germany are a consequence of WWII. Since the war, Germany has dealt with its past in a very good and healthy way, but the WWII is something that is still very alive in collective memory across Europe. Germany has been doing a good job in promoting its international image and influence, but there is still a lot to be done, and it will take some time IMHO.

You're a "communist"?
Hell no.

Hell no.

Okay, sorry about the mix up.

I suppose you could say that the Soviets won the war from their perspective, but i was taking the war as a whole, and saying Russia was not solely responsible for the victory over the Axis. Without Western help, they would have lost (hence Stalin begging the British to open a second front, leading to the invasion of Italy in 1943)

Okay, sorry about the mix up.

I suppose you could say that the Soviets won the war from their perspective, but i was taking the war as a whole, and saying Russia was not solely responsible for the victory over the Axis. Without Western help, they would have lost (hence Stalin begging the British to open a second front, leading to the invasion of Italy in 1943)
Yeah, that's true. The USSR wasn't the only winner of course, and wouldn't have won alone, but the outcome of the war turned the USSR into a super-power.

...Germany has been doing a good job in promoting its international image and influence, but there is still a lot to be done, and it will take some time IMHO.
It's been 60 years!
The country is the third largest economy in the world, and the top-exporter. German companies are doing business all over the planet.
Whenever there is a catastrophe, you can bet that Germany will be among the top donours. A good number of the pumps that they used to clear up New Orleans were from Germany by the way.

When no one gave a shit about Darfur, it was Germany (namely Heidemarie Wiczorek-Zeul - Germany's Development and Economic Co-Operation Minister) which pushed this all the way when most country's just wanted to ignore it.
And when NATO asked Germany to send troops to Somalia, or Kosovo, or Afghanistan, they went. They even train Iraqi Forces, even though we are fundamentally against the war there.
I ask you this: What else must be done so that Germany could be regarded as equals with Britain or France?

I ask you this: What else must be done so that Germany could be regarded as equals with Britain or France?

Equal with France? ROTFLMAO! Why would you want to move down?

From the sounds of this guy, I would say the answer is: time machine.:rolleyes:

Personally, I think that Germany should get a permanent seat on the security council, exactly because of its history and by the way modern Germany is dealing with it.

The experiences of WW II are still influencing Germany, making it a very cautious and highly sensible and rational country, especially regarding foreign politics. I'm certain that it would turn out to be a positive, stabilising influence in the security council.

However, I think it might be even better not to have any permanent members of the security council at all any more...

-snip-
And thus we agree 100% :)

What should Germany's role be? Exactly matching its strength and politics: A strong leader for freedom, democracy, and unity to replace the increasingly corrupt United States.

I like the EU, as do the Germans. I think they should step forward and become one of the leaders of the EU and the UN. Germany has learned from its past mistakes, and is moving forward into a new age of enlightenment. When I see people claiming that they still need to be punished for the sins of six decades ago, I can't help but think that that is far too petty. How long do they have to keep their noses clean before they can rejoin the world? Very, very few people who were alive during World War II are alive now. Why should their children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren be punished for crimes they did not commit?

Germany is a free nation, and one of the strongest nations in the world. May she take a role in favor of peace and freedom that she has earned through the labors of the last sixty years.

What SHOULD it be? An ally who acts like an ally, that's all one can really ask.

What WILL it be? Probly the standard European nation: A bitchy little welfare-state pissed off that their time in the sun is over, whose unemployment rates hover just over 10%, whose citizenry riot when asked to work more than 37 hours a week, and who suffers from supreme delusions of grandeur such as the above described Euro-nation equalling the US.

I think Germany should sort out their economy before they have any dreams of the future. I'm sorry but Germany's economy is pst its sell-by date. It needs modernising, you can't control the economy like you could in the seventies. You need to let go and Embrace Anglo-saxon capitalism; its not evil, merely amoral.

...who suffers from supreme delusions of grandeur such as the above described Euro-nation equalling the US.
Zip it if you can't back up your claims.
And just for the record, the above comment came straight from California.

does anyone want to respond to my post (30)?

I will (although it's customary not to pressure people...)

I think Germany should sort out their economy before they have any dreams of the future. I'm sorry but Germany's economy is pst its sell-by date. It needs modernising, you can't control the economy like you could in the seventies.
Actually, we couldn't do it then either. There's a pretty obvious correlation between the left being in power for a while and going too far, and the economy eventually suffering.
Then the right came into power, and removed much regulation, and the poor people suffered etc until the people voted back the left to restore parity.
Same deal today - except that today suddenly people are questioning our very way of life, and that leads people to question giving their vote to the right as they would have 20 years ago.
But it's true that the economy needs to get fixed before anything big can be started (personally I reckon if the ECB would cut interest rates a little it would help, but alas there is too many other countries involved...my only gripe with the EU really)

You need to let go and Embrace Anglo-saxon capitalism; its not evil, merely amoral.
No, no and a bit more no. I agree that a Franco-Germanic socialism is a step or two too far, but you don't have to do it the American way either ("Anglo" is a joke, you imported it from America with Thatcher, before that you were one of the happiest little worker's paradises around...)
Look at Sweden or Norway, and you know what to aim for.

Germany should try to have more international influence as a defender of democracy, it's the EU's largest state afterall. But I think Germany should never get a permanent seat at the UN Security Council (Same goes for Japan).


yeah because exclusion never breeds contempt

fuckwit

Look at Sweden or Norway, and you know what to aim for.
I suppose thats why their such dominant world powers..

I suppose thats why their such dominant world powers..
You were talking Economics.
If you want to talk Politics again, tell me - but be advised that Sweden too has been very active as far as Human Rights and the like is concerned, and its military is currently employed both in the Kosovo and in Afghanistan.

yeah because exclusion never breeds contempt
So how about putting some 10 terrorists in your own house? No, oh but you say exclusion breeds contempt :D You should do whatever they wanted so they won't feel excluded. So your argument is a non-argument.

fuckwit
Don't insult me just because you don't agree with me. If you knew you were right you didn't have to insult me, so let's not chat about your despair, if you want to be noted, you don't have to be a silly troll.

It's been 60 years!
The country is the third largest economy in the world, and the top-exporter. German companies are doing business all over the planet.
Whenever there is a catastrophe, you can bet that Germany will be among the top donours. A good number of the pumps that they used to clear up New Orleans were from Germany by the way.

When no one gave a shit about Darfur, it was Germany (namely Heidemarie Wiczorek-Zeul - Germany's Development and Economic Co-Operation Minister) which pushed this all the way when most country's just wanted to ignore it.
And when NATO asked Germany to send troops to Somalia, or Kosovo, or Afghanistan, they went. They even train Iraqi Forces, even though we are fundamentally against the war there.
I ask you this: What else must be done so that Germany could be regarded as equals with Britain or France?
I know what you mean. germany's role in international politics has been a very positive one lately. But history doesn't fade away so easily and whether you like it or not, the world as we know it today is still the result of Germany's defeat (sorry). Germany has been doing all it can to be regarded as an equal, and has done it well, but historical facts have consequences and ANY responsible country can't deny having responsibility for its acts, even if it was 60 years ago (sorry).

You were talking Economics.
If you want to talk Politics again, tell me - but be advised that Sweden too has been very active as far as Human Rights and the like is concerned, and its military is currently employed both in the Kosovo and in Afghanistan.

I apologuise for for switching themes. I know very little about the economies of Scandavia but if they manange to be socialist and rich at the same time then thats super, I might become a socialist myself, I just having the feeling thats part of the story is missing after all it goes against the grain that a economy with +60% tax can have a booming economy. Who the hell would invest there?

So how about putting some 10 terrorists in your own house? No, oh but you say exclusion breeds contempt :D You should do whatever they wanted so they won't feel excluded. So your argument is a non-argument.


Don't insult me just because you don't agree with me. If you knew you were right you didn't have to insult me, so let's not chat about your despair, if you want to be noted, you don't have to be a silly troll.


woefully inaccurate comparison, kindergarted level really, the Germans and Japanese are not now a threat to international safety, if anything they are two of the most potentially helpful nations on the planet, but we have people unable to look beyond a nations past(such as yourself) and not see its potential

The whole permanant security council idea is outdated, however it gives my country an advantage so thumbs up!

woefully inaccurate comparison, kindergarted level really, the Germans and Japanese are not now a threat to international safety, if anything they are two of the most potentially helpful nations on the planet, but we have people unable to look beyond a nations past(such as yourself) and not see its potential
Your comparison is inaccurate, I never used any "threat to international safety" :rolleyes: to justify my point of view. You're the one who came up with such idea. I just said it's a punishment for their past, I'm not afraid to admit it, for that's my personal ethical point of view. A nation can't run away fom its past. If you disagree and want to discuss it, that's great to me, but if you only want to throw any personal insults at me, then don't bother replying. ;)

I know very little about the economies of Scandavia but if they manange to be socialist and rich at the same time then thats super, I might become a socialist myself, I just having the feeling thats part of the story is missing after all it goes against the grain that a economy with +60% tax can have a booming economy. Who the hell would invest there?
It works because the populace is healthy, educated and generally quite happy to give up a lot of money (although not 60%+) for the state. Consumer confidence is high and fairly stable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Sweden
This is a good overview I reckon.

I think Germany will just join a federal Europe though it will have allot of power it will always be number 2 compared Britain and France

I think Germany will also become the high tech centre of Europe (if it isn’t already)

Germany has been doing all it can to be regarded as an equal, and has done it well, but historical facts have consequences and ANY responsible country can't deny having responsibility for its acts, even if it was 60 years ago (sorry).
Germany has never denied its responsibility.
We've bloody well jumped up and accepted our share of the blame for the Armenian genocide too! Afterall, the Turks were our Allies.

I just want to know what the proper compensation is then...by Keynes we've tried it all.

EDIT: And how often do you see a leader fall to his knees (http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/sub_image.cfm?image_id=161) to beg for forgiveness and in shame?
This is an interesting little site, by the way: http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/home.cfm

I know what you mean. germany's role in international politics has been a very positive one lately. But history doesn't fade away so easily and whether you like it or not, the world as we know it today is still the result of Germany's defeat (sorry). Germany has been doing all it can to be regarded as an equal, and has done it well, but historical facts have consequences and ANY responsible country can't deny having responsibility for its acts, even if it was 60 years ago (sorry).

They're not denying that past; the German government has repeatedly and profusely apologies for the atrocities of WWII. Considering some of the crap the US (genocide or near-genocide of thousands of native American cultures, continued support of dictators over democratic rulers if the dictators favor American interests, Hiroshima, Nagasaki), France (French Revolution, Napoleonic Wars, centuries-long subjugation of French citizens, empire building, etc.), and Britain (huge, decidedly unfriendly empire, exploitation of native people, machine-gunning miners on strike during the '20s, Dresden) have pulled over the years, I think that Germany is just as deserving of a place at the forefront of international affairs.

They're not denying that past; the German government has repeatedly and profusely apologies for the atrocities of WWII.
I wasn't referring to the german government. I was referring to some people here who were trying to say that what happened in WWII is no longer important. You should have read the rest of the thread, because I already said that Germany has been dealing with its past in a very good healthy way.

Considering some of the crap the US (genocide or near-genocide of thousands of native American cultures, continued support of dictators over democratic rulers if the dictators favor American interests, Hiroshima, Nagasaki), France (French Revolution, Napoleonic Wars, centuries-long subjugation of French citizens, empire building, etc.), and Britain (huge, decidedly unfriendly empire, exploitation of native people, machine-gunning miners on strike during the '20s, Dresden) have pulled over the years, I think that Germany is just as deserving of a place at the forefront of international affairs.
You must be joking :rolleyes: . Don't even try to compare the the nazi crimes to any of these! OMFG! How can you make such a comparison? Are you nuts?

Germany has never denied its responsibility.
We've bloody well jumped up and accepted our share of the blame for the Armenian genocide too! Afterall, the Turks were our Allies.

I just want to know what the proper compensation is then...by Keynes we've tried it all.

EDIT: And how often do you see a leader fall to his knees (http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/sub_image.cfm?image_id=161) to beg for forgiveness and in shame?
This is an interesting little site, by the way: http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/home.cfm
Oh, man, you didn't read what I wrote, did you? Where did you find any statement by me saying that Germany had never denied its responsability? Nowhere! In fact, I said early on this thread, and I repeat it once again, that Germany has been dealing with its past in a good and healthy way. I never said that Germany was denying any responsability!!! Next time, pick on something that I've actually said. Or written, you know what I mean.

You must be joking :rolleyes: . Don't even try to compare the the nazi crimes to any of these! OMFG! How can you make such a comparison? Are you nuts?
I would've hoped that we could keep the Nazi topic in another thread.

Oh, man, you didn't read what I wrote, did you?...
I know what you mean. germany's role in international politics has been a very positive one lately. But history doesn't fade away so easily and whether you like it or not, the world as we know it today is still the result of Germany's defeat (sorry). Germany has been doing all it can to be regarded as an equal, and has done it well, but historical facts have consequences and ANY responsible country can't deny having responsibility for its acts, even if it was 60 years ago (sorry).
In that case we have a misunderstanding here, because what you actually wrote clearly implies that Germany has somehow denied its responsibility - and that it therefore has no right to be on the UNSC.
Do you mean to say that neither Germany nor Japan can ever be treated as equals among nations, because of something that happened 60 years ago?
And it is as the other poster said: The country has done more to deal with its history than any other nation on the planet. If you look at the number of people killed, or the crimes committed in their names, all European nations and America have to look in the mirror too.

Unless you actually give me a clear indication of what it is that Germany must do in order to have the right to be treated according to its size and importance, I must assume that you're just being petty about the war or that you think Germany shouldn't be on the Council for some other reason (see Italian Opposition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Italy))

Germany has apologized for their war crimes, now it's time to DEMAND apologies from other nations.

There has been no apology at ALL, for any Soviet War Crimes committed by the Evil Bolsheviks.

Germany needs to demand an apology from the Bolsheviks.

What should be Germany's role in the future?

Two words. Sieg. Heil. :p

To me, concerning this issue, it all has to begin with you folks fucking each other more (making more German babies) and kicking out the Islamists (notice I didn't say Muslims-I said Islamists.)
Your place in the world is written in metal if you don't commence to humping with a purpose.
Don't let yourselves become part of the caliphate. Stop expecting the government to soothe your every bump and scrape and put more money into your military. Make up your minds, do you want the US military to finally, after 50 years, to leave or are you going to STFU and quit protesting outside US military bases?
Why don't you all give working 40 hours a week/11 months a year a go?
The West is going to need you sooner rather than later. As it is now, you've become soft and effete. Doughy. Inconsequential.

Make up your minds, do you want the US military to finally, after 50 years, to leave or are you going to STFU and quit protesting outside US military bases?
I don't fully get that bit.
Occasionally there are demonstrations, and that is the right of any citizen to do. I'm not going to advocate removing that right.

Personally I'd like the US to leave the place, but not really for any practical reasons - but we can with certainty say that their presence is no longer needed militarily.
They will anyways, the new hotspot is central Asia, and they'll have their main bases in places like Uzbekistan, Afghanistan and Iraq. And at least you can be sure that if people demonstrate against you in Uzbekistan, they won't be doing it again for a while...

And at least you can be sure that if people demonstrate against you in Uzbekistan, they won't be doing it again for a while...

What an ungrateful cretin you are. All of you. I despise Old Europe. 5 years ago it was a different story with me. But now, reap the whirlwind dhimmi bitches. I'm joining the US Army in January. I'll not shed my sweat nor my blood for you sacks of shit.

What an ungrateful cretin you are.
And proud of it! :D

One week the eternally chanting are calling US soldiers murderers outside of US military bases. Then after the US Dept. Of Defense announced a preliminary plan to close bases in your former piss hole country the same dimwits were protesting the proposed closures.
Maybe they feared actually having to get jobs. Old Europe is going to be the New Caliphate soon enough, stock up on souvenirs and convert to Islam to beat the rush (your masters might be nicer to you if you convert now).

What an ungrateful cretin you are. All of you. I despise Old Europe. 5 years ago it was a different story with me. But now, reap the whirlwind dhimmi bitches. I'm joining the US Army in January. I'll not shed my sweat nor my blood for you sacks of shit.

YAY!! Prejudice!!

...I despise Old Europe. 5 years ago it was a different story with me. But now, reap the whirlwind dhimmi bitches. I'm joining the US Army in January. I'll not shed my sweat nor my blood for you sacks of shit.
...plan to close bases in your former piss hole country the same dimwits were protesting the proposed closures.
:rolleyes:
You're being a shining example of what I like about your country so much.

Do you really want me to go and report this to the mods?

YAY!! Prejudice!!
As for you, your billionaire inbred dimwit Prince Chuckie is going to come here and lecture Bush on being nice to Muslims. I'm glad you pay your clowns more than I have to pay mine.
Long live the upperclass inbred dimwits!

Two words. Sieg. Heil. :p
:rolleyes:

As for you, your billionaire inbred dimwit Prince Chuckie is going to come here and lecture Bush on being nice to Muslims. I'm glad you pay your clowns more than I have to pay mine.
Long live the upperclass inbred dimwits!

Agh! Shut up shut up shut up! Americans look bad enought to the rest of the world as it is!

Folks, I'd really like to apologize for my pseuod-countryman's behavior. Please don't assume that all Americans share his blatant prejudices and lack of reason. His opinons are not those of the majority. *gulp* I hope.

I think that Germany deserved to be shamed at one time because they wouldn't have confronted the tragedy they were complicit in otherwise. It was too huge.
But now I think that we did to good a job of it. Look at what you've become. You're collectively like a beaten child-passive aggressive, dependent, and inconfident. You'll make perfect dhimmi's just like your grandfathers made perfect fascisti.

As for you, your billionaire inbred dimwit Prince Chuckie is going to come here and lecture Bush on being nice to Muslims. I'm glad you pay your clowns more than I have to pay mine.
Long live the upperclass inbred dimwits!

Southaustin: Official Warning for Trolling

You have every right to an opinion; however, resulting to insults rather than stating your beliefs in an orderly fashion has given you this official warning. Cut out the insults.

When I was in Germany three years ago the general feel that I got was that the people felt that their role in WW2 was the biggest mistake in their history (keep in mind that this is just the impression that I got from speaking to the people, some of whom actually fought in the war). One of the reasons that they keep the remains of the camps is to acknowledge what happened and to motivate them to never let it happen again. I think that they should take a more prominent rold in international politics because it would help them "prove" that they have come a long way since the 40's.

Pennterra speaking of US injustices don't forget the japanese inernment camps on the west coast during WW2. Not the best decision in american history.

I would've hoped that we could keep the Nazi topic in another thread.
See? I wasn't talking about Germany denying its past, I was talking about some people like you who apparently believe that because it was 60 years ago, it's no longer important.

In that case we have a misunderstanding here, because what you actually wrote clearly implies that Germany has somehow denied its responsibility - and that it therefore has no right to be on the UNSC.
No it doesn't. I think Germany has been very responsible.

Do you mean to say that neither Germany nor Japan can ever be treated as equals among nations, because of something that happened 60 years ago?
Yes I do. Sorry, but It's not just something that happened 60 years ago.

And it is as the other poster said: The country has done more to deal with its history than any other nation on the planet. If you look at the number of people killed, or the crimes committed in their names, all European nations and America have to look in the mirror too.
You too please don't even try to compare.

Unless you actually give me a clear indication of what it is that Germany must do in order to have the right to be treated according to its size and importance, I must assume that you're just being petty about the war or that you think Germany shouldn't be on the Council for some other reason (see Italian Opposition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Italy))
It's NOT modern Germany's fault! Germany's behaviour since WWII couldn't have been more correct, but that's not enough for a country that actually voted for nazism back in the 30's and invaded almost all of Europe. It was very brutal (Japan was even worse) and to say the contrary or to try to compare it to other nations' crimes is just plain hypocrisy.

I would've hoped that we could keep the Nazi topic in another thread.
You shouldn't feel uncomfortable about that. Sorry, but I can't ignore history or pretend it didn't happened.

What an ungrateful cretin you are. All of you. I despise Old Europe. 5 years ago it was a different story with me. But now, reap the whirlwind dhimmi bitches. I'm joining the US Army in January. I'll not shed my sweat nor my blood for you sacks of shit.
You are being very irrational in your criticism of Europe. Europe doesn't need your stupid speech.

See? I wasn't talking about Germany denying its past, I was talking about some people like you who apparently believe that because it was 60 years ago, it's no longer important.
It's still important, but what happened happened! We can't change it now.

You too please don't even try to compare.
Why? Might you find that the number of people killed may be more with a good number of empires over the years?
Russia is on the UNSC, as is China. Surely you're aware of their exploits.

It's NOT modern Germany's fault! Germany's behaviour since WWII couldn't have been more correct, but that's not enough for a country that actually voted for nazism back in the 30's and invaded almost all of Europe. It was very brutal (Japan was even worse) and to say the contrary or to try to compare it to other nations' crimes is just plain hypocrisy.
Check your history, Germany never actually voted for Nazism, Hitler never got a proper majority.
Check your dictionary too, because it has nothing to do with hypocrisy - fact of the matter is that no one here denied what happened. The only people that still do live in the US, because in Germany you can go to jail for that.
Fact is also that neither me, nor my parents, nor even their parents (except one who was a soldier with the 6th army) have done anything wrong (and to qualify, fighting for one's country isn't different depending on which side you fight, and AFAIK my grandfather didn't commit war crimes - but you can never be certain).
It's utterly ridiculous to hold them responsible for the Holocaust and to punish them for it - especially if you consider that there are offenders just as bad who never reconciled with their past and are still aggressive and sometimes dangerous political entities.
And you still haven't answered the question of what it is that the modern state of Germany, which is completely and totally seperate from the Third German Empire of 60 years ago, can do to seem "worthy" in your eyes.

==========================================

And on a more positive note, the Frauenkirche in Dresden was reconsecrated* yesterday, and is now open for service again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresden_Frauenkirche

*EDIT

Democratic, strict on protecting human rights.
Agreed, whatsoever...

After reading this whole thread I find it interesting how quickly a discussion degenerates...started interested reading, then stepped into a troll lair :rolleyes:

Germanies role in the modern world...like it or not, they/we have to be dealing with being the single largest economy in europe, the third largest in the world etc...so with size comes responsibility, no more political ducking behind the WWII allies. Interesting read on this is "Diplomacy" by Henry Kissinger, he predicted in 1995 the behaviour of the new german government, of the first chancellor coming from post-war stock, the development in eastern europe (e.g. poland joining NATO and EU as soon as possible).

And in the light of recent development, the UNSC has outdated itself

You must be joking :rolleyes: . Don't even try to compare the the nazi crimes to any of these! OMFG! How can you make such a comparison? Are you nuts?



*The US Government have done alot of genocide and war crimes but ofcourse most of them are looked upon with a mild amusement by most of the Governments because of the fact that the US is a center of trade for partial of the global economy but on a more serious note the US government isnt totally controled by the people of its country but by a select few who decides what funding goes where and such voting is just something to make it appear that the people are incontrol but infact they are not for most of the tax money the US government gets about ten percent of it becomes untrackable to the public because they use it as private funding for *to put a more easily understood word as its label* espionage and oh yea im a American btw so dont think me as a sterotypical incomputent please

<snip>

Good point, but next time please use interpunction...it´s so difficult to find your way in a word-river ;)

*The US Government have done alot of genocide and war crimes but ofcourse most of them are looked upon with a mild amusement by most of the Governments because of the fact that the US is a center of trade for partial of the global economy but on a more serious note the US government isnt totally controled by the people of its country but by a select few who decides what funding goes where and such voting is just something to make it appear that the people are incontrol but infact they are not for most of the tax money the US government gets about ten percent of it becomes untrackable to the public because they use it as private funding for *to put a more easily understood word as its label* espionage and oh yea im a American btw so dont think me as a sterotypical incomputent please
OK, so the nazis were a bunch of peace-loving hippies that were not worse than the USA :rolleyes: . Thanks for the "enlightenment" :rolleyes: . If you think the american genocides are comparable to the nazi ones, you can't be serious. Those happened in different periods in History. You are just trying to make an excuse for the nazi.

I suppose that it would be better and more instructive to ask the German people where they should go next, rather than ask a lot of non-Germans on NS.

That said, I think they should do something about the unemployment problem in Germany and the flight of German industry before they worry about doing something international.

It's still important, but what happened happened! We can't change it now.
I agree.

Why? Might you find that the number of people killed may be more with a good number of empires over the years?
Russia is on the UNSC, as is China. Surely you're aware of their exploits.
It's not only the number of deaths. It's the way it happened and the general purpose behind all these deaths, which was pure evil. And it was in the 30's/40's so it's relatively recent compared to the crimes of most empires, which didn't have all the military power that Germany had. No one can seriously say that the nazi crimes were the same thing the other empires did, because that's so not true. I know, USSR and China killed more people than the 3rd Reich, but they won the war and that meant a lot after the war. Although the People's Republic of China didn't actually win the war because it didn't exist back then, but whatever, don't complain to me, complain to the guys that gave to the PRC the seat that belonged to the ROC.

Check your history, Germany never actually voted for Nazism, Hitler never got a proper majority.
Still he won the election, didn't he? And I've never heard of any substantial resistence group (I mean, not any fringe group) in Germany that strongly opposed the whole thing and tried to overthrow nazism. If such group actually existed, I apologize for any misinformation as I've never heard of it.

Check your dictionary too, because it has nothing to do with hypocrisy - fact of the matter is that no one here denied what happened. The only people that still do live in the US, because in Germany you can go to jail for that.
Fact is also that neither me, nor my parents, nor even their parents (except one who was a soldier with the 6th army) have done anything wrong (and to qualify, fighting for one's country isn't different depending on which side you fight, and AFAIK my grandfather didn't commit war crimes - but you can never be certain).
I know and I really apreciate the fact that Germany forbids holocaust denial. It should be an example for other countries.

It's utterly ridiculous to hold them responsible for the Holocaust and to punish them for it - especially if you consider that there are offenders just as bad who never reconciled with their past and are still aggressive and sometimes dangerous political entities.
Is your family being punished for its country not having a permantent seat at the UNSC? I don't think so. Portugal will never get a permanent seat and that's fine to me.

And you still haven't answered the question of what it is that the modern state of Germany, which is completely and totally seperate from the Third German Empire of 60 years ago, can do to seem "worthy" in your eyes.
Germany needs to do nothing, I already said I find the punishment fair. Remember it could have been much worse for Germany (remember Japan...).

Still he won the election, didn't he? And I've never heard of any substantial resistence group (I mean, not any fringe group) in Germany that strongly opposed the whole thing and tried to overthrow nazism. If such group actually existed, I apologize for any misinformation as I've never heard of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler#The_road_to_power
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wei%C3%9Fe_Rose
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stauffenberg

Is your family being punished for its country not having a permantent seat at the UNSC? I don't think so. Portugal will never get a permanent seat and that's fine to me.
Someone is being punished. None of the politicians have done anything wrong either.

I fail to see the reasoning behind why Germany shouldn't be allowed on the council. It is more economically powerful and populous than either France or Great Britain, for one thing.

Carring over the WWII arguments is frankly quite absurd in light of China's continuing violations of UN principle. Whine about the Holocaust, or Nanjing, both sixty years in the past and for the most part paid up for? Not let Germany and Japan on while China can get away with setting tanks on peaceful assemblies in Tiananmen Square? Heck, China's such a tyrant Taiwan doesn't even get a spot in the UN anymore. Absurd. I say kick them off and give Germany their seat, if we are talking purely in terms of principles. Pity everyone is too scared of them to actually use a backbone.

I think to varying extent India, Japan, Germany, and Brazil all ought to be let on the permanent council.

I fail to see the reasoning behind why Germany shouldn't be allowed on the council. It is more economically powerful and populous than either France or Great Britain, for one thing.

Carring over the WWII arguments is frankly quite absurd in light of China's continuing violations of UN principle. Whine about the Holocaust, or Nanjing, both sixty years in the past and for the most part paid up for? Not let Germany and Japan on while China can get away with setting tanks on peaceful assemblies in Tiananmen Square? Heck, China's such a tyrant Taiwan doesn't even get a spot in the UN anymore. Absurd. I say kick them off and give Germany their seat, if we are talking purely in terms of principles. Pity everyone is too scared of them to actually use a backbone.

I think to varying extent India, Japan, Germany, and Brazil all ought to be let on the permanent council.
How about a common seat for the EU? That would be cool.

As for the China issue I agree with you, Taiwan should have kept their seat. The PRC has no right to the permanent seat.

The PRC has no right to the permanent seat.
I wouldn't think "right" comes into it at all. Fact of the matter is that China is the most populous and will be the most powerful economically nation in a few years. It's got a huge military which will only become more powerful with time.

Excluding them from the major decisions is just a pointless and dangerous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler#The_road_to_power
Can't open this. I only see "Can Gillz Hack Wikipedia?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wei%C3%9Fe_Rose
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stauffenberg
Geesh, I didn't even know that they existed. I apologize for that. :)

Someone is being punished. None of the politicians have done anything wrong either.
They haven't done anything wrong for sure, but the current status quo in the UNSC has historical reasons, and we all have to live with the past too, whether we like it or not...

Can't open this. I only see "Can Gillz Hack Wikipedia?"
That's weird...works for me.
Anyways, you can just go to wikipedia and see whether you can get there by simply putting it into the search bar.

I wouldn't think "right" comes into it at all. Fact of the matter is that China is the most populous and will be the most powerful economically nation in a few years. It's got a huge military which will only become more powerful with time.

Excluding them from the major decisions is just a pointless and dangerous.
Yeah, from a realpolitik point of view you're right. But I also think that ethically the PRC has no right to the seat because the seat was given initially to the ROC, BUT I understand why they gave it to the PRC just by comparing the population of the two and it would be indeed risky to exclude the PRC. BTW since the EU is so populous, why not a common seat for the EU?

That's weird...works for me.
Anyways, you can just go to wikipedia and see whether you can get there by simply putting it into the search bar.
Got it thanks.

BTW since the EU is so populous, why not a common seat for the EU?
See my new thread on UN reforms.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=451920

See my new thread on UN reforms.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=451920
Posted there already :)

I think that there is one big factor being overlooked here...Germany was split into 2 different countries from 1945 until 1990.

I don't really think that you can claim Germany has been socially responsible for 60 years, where there hasn't been a unified Germany for more than 15 years. Certainly you won't claim that East Germany was an upstanding world citizen...the stasi was the agency that coordinated the assassination attempt on Pope John Paul II.

And, when did the two Germanies enter the UN? 1972 or 1973? Not much of a track record to rely upon for your bid for the security council.

Just my humble opinion.

I think that there is one big factor being overlooked here...Germany was split into 2 different countries from 1945 until 1990.
:D You don't say!

I don't really think that you can claim Germany has been socially responsible for 60 years, where there hasn't been a unified Germany for more than 15 years.
Socially responsible perhaps not (although you have to look at the environment), but at least both countries have intensively dealt with the Nazi Era, each in its own way.

Certainly you won't claim that East Germany was an upstanding world citizen...the stasi was the agency that coordinated the assassination attempt on Pope John Paul II.
The Stasi did all kinds of things (although the alleged communist involvement in this was done by the Bulgarians in response to the Polish Solidarnosc). As did the KGB. Or the CIA. Or pretty much everyone else involved in the Cold War.
If that is the only thing that speaks against it, then that's really a non-argument. The GDR was in the Warsaw Pact, in the firm grasp of the USSR - there wasn't a whole lot of independent policy done, and even then, it wasn't something that outrageous compared to the rest of the world.

And, when did the two Germanies enter the UN? 1972 or 1973? Not much of a track record to rely upon for your bid for the security council.
'73. But before then the both countries had already become vital parts of their respective camps. Look at the track record of either country, and you'll find that both behaved responsibly in the situation they were given.
And besides, if UN membership is what matters to you, Germany is a major financial contributor:
http://www.germany-info.org/UN/un/contributions/contributions2.html
And here is what Germany is currently contributing politically to the UN:
http://www.germany-info.org/UN/un/bodies/bodies.html

*sigh* Joaoland, you're not making sense. "I think Germany has done everything possible to make up for the horrors of WWII, but they still should be punished for those crimes." I have a hard time seeing any logical justification for that. The amount of people alive in Germany today that supports those actions is probably smaller than the number of people in the USA that supports those actions. Why punish people for the crimes of their ancestors when the people despise those same crimes?

And yes, American and European genocides of Native American groups is analagous. Hitler's attempted genocide of 4 or 5 ethnic groups failed; the genocide of several hundred Native American groups succeeded or came much closer to succeeding. No BS about 'a different time,' either; the '30s and '40s were a different time from now, as much as the 19th century was a different time from WWII.

Germany has apologized for their war crimes, now it's time to DEMAND apologies from other nations.

There has been no apology at ALL, for any Soviet War Crimes committed by the Evil Bolsheviks.

Germany needs to demand an apology from the Bolsheviks.Dang. There is never time for Germany to DEMAND apologies, considering what crimes were committed by Germany. It would be nice for Poland to do the same as the Czech Republic and formulate an apology for some of the wrongs they did in suit of the Second World War, but any German (or person speaking on behalf of a German) demanding an apology is, frankly, most likely one of the illmannered unteachables.

OK, so the nazis were a bunch of peace-loving hippies that were not worse than the USA :rolleyes: . Thanks for the "enlightenment" :rolleyes: . If you think the american genocides are comparable to the nazi ones, you can't be serious. Those happened in different periods in History. You are just trying to make an excuse for the nazi.


No actaully im not making any excuses. The war crimes of the United States can and are daily compared with that of the nazis in colleges and households around the world. so if you would like to be further educated please reply