NationStates Jolt Archive

More than 50 confirmed dead. 3 to 6 blasts. Details are sketchy. Note that all the targets are predominantly hindu areas, especially markets which are busy since it is just 2 days to Diwali, the grandest of the hindu festivals of India.

http://www.ndtv.com/topstories/showtopstory.asp?slug=Serial+blasts+rock+Delhi&id=18069&category=National
Serial blasts rock Delhi

NDTV Correspondent

Saturday, October 29, 2005 (New Delhi):

A series of explosions rocked busy shopping markets in the heart of the national Capital this evening.

The first blast took place in the main bazaar of Paharganj near the New Delhi Railway Station at around 5:30 pm (IST).

The fire service has described it as a "medium-level blast".

Around half an hour later, at 6:05 pm (IST), the second explosion took place in south Delhi's busy Sarojini Nagar market.

Another explosion has been reported from Okhla in south Delhi. A fourth explosion has been reported from Gole Market area in central Delhi.

Security tightened

In the Paharganj blast, several people have been critically injured. According to an eyewitness, women and children are also among those injured.

Police have deployed additional forces across the Capital and people have been urged to remain calm and move away from crowded markets.

According to sources, the fire department has received calls from four places – Paharganj, Gole Market, Govindpuri and Sarojini Nagar – about the explosions.

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=332102
50 killed in serial blasts rock Delhi
NEW DELHI, OCT 29 (PTI)

Terrorists struck in the capital in a big way on the eve of Diwali today triggering three explosions in two markets and near a bus killing 50 people and injuring over 70 others, including some foreigners.

The first explosion toook place at around 5:40 p.M. In the busy Paharganj market in central Delhi in which 11 people died and 60 were injured. The market, which is frequented by foreigners, was bustling with Diwali shoppers.

Minutes later another explosion rocked Sarojini Nagar Market in south Delhi killing where maximum casualties were reported.

Another blast took place adjacent to a bus 10 kms further south in Govindpuri area.

Union Home Minister Shivraj Patil said 37 bodies were in Safdarjang Hospital while Union Health Secretary P K Hota said seven bodies were brought to Lady Hardinge hospital, four to Ram Manohar Lohia hospital and two to AIIMS.

Expressing shock and distress over the blasts, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, who is returning to Delhi cutting short his visit to West Bengal, asserted that the Government was determined to defeat nefarious designs of terrorist elements. Declaring that perpetrators of these heinous acts would be dealt with firmly, he urged the people to remain calm.

Although Patil said it was too early to say who was behind the blasts, security agencies were not ruling out involvement of Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Toiba.

Immediately after the explosions, a red alert was sounded in neighbouring Punjab, Haryana and Uttar Pradesh as also Mumbai and Kolkata.

As if India hasn't suffered enough this year with floods, an earthquake, and now terrorist bombings. My condolences go out to the families of the victims and my sympathy to India.

Kashmir again...?

The blasts hit areas popular with the Israeli tourists, so here in Israel there is a suspicion that could be Al-Qaeda or the Arabs behind the attack. But I wasn't aware that it coincided with the Diwali festival.

I've just been private messaged (not here, on another place) by an Israeli acquantance of mine who says he was contacted yesterday by an Indian person seeking to pass "some important information about Palestinian students in Delhi" to the Israeli intelligence. However, it was only one message and that Indian person did not return any mail since. I told the Israeli who received the message to pass it on to the police or e-mail the Mossad website.

Pretty damn puzzling. I'll be waiting for more information to unsurface.

In the meanwhile, my condolences to the victims, their families and to the wonderful people of India who are forced to endure this madness.

Kashmir again...?

Well traditionally whenever the Paki army is facing discontent in Pakistan, they whip up communal riots in India which will make India to say threatening things and so the Paki army can go "see, how big bad India is always aiming to destroy our great Pakistan and see we are the only obstacle to their aims..so we have to stay in power"..

Currently their bungling with the relief efforts and the unabated shia killings in Gilgit area is creating lots of discontent.

I am not ruling out the involvement of Indian muslims or even Bangladeshi muslims in this. A Bangladeshi muslim was involved in the Ayodhya attack recently.

But in the end, the bombers are just foot soldiers and we know where the plot is hatched and it will come out in due time. I am guessing Lashkar-e-taiba..let's wait and see..

live and breaking news can be followed here

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/states/delhi05.htm

We must fight terrorism together, says Sonia
Two people arrested from New Delhi Railway Station in connection with blasts
Report says 37 bodies are lying in Safdarjung Hospital alone
Home Ministry says RDX was used in blasts
PM may cut-short West Bengal visit
President speaks to Delhi CM, reviews relief for victims
PM says terrorists can't defeat people of India
Chief Minister Sheila Dikshit says a sad day for Delhi
Latest report says 30 dead in Sarojini Nagar
Home Minister visits affected areas, says it is too early to fix responsibility for the blasts
Home Minister Patil asks people not to visit markets
Police issue orders to shut down all Delhi markets
PM expresses shock, appeals citizens to maintain calm
Home Ministry convenes high-level meeting at 8.15 pm to review situation
Govindpuri explosion took place in a bus
Latest report says 15 dead in Paharganj area
The first explosion took place in Paharganj at around 5.30 pm. The second in Sarojini Nagar and the third in Govindpuri
Security beefed-up in Mumbai and Kolkata
Latest report says over 70 injured in Delhi blasts
Three reported dead in Govindpuri
Fire officials say 20 dead in Sarojini Nagar
Latest report says 15 dead in Paharganj area
Red alert declared in Delhi following serial blasts
Paharganj blast: Nature of the blast not confirmed
13 people are reported injured in Paharganj area
Large numbers of fire engines have left for Paharganj.
Police have closed Sarojini Nagar market
The blast has resulted in fire in Sarojini Nagar market
Two people are confirmed dead in the Paharganj blast
Ten people are feared killed in Paharganj area
The blasts took place in the Paharganj area, Gole Market, Govindpuri and the Sarojini Nagar market of New Delhi
Series of blasts rock national Capital today

The blasts hit areas popular with the Israeli tourists, so here in Israel there is a suspicion that could be Al-Qaeda or the Arabs behind the attack.

AQ has not carried out any attacks against India. OBL rarely mentions India in his speeches. Not that it means that he loves India are anything like that, but he does not have to involve in this when the AQ affiliates like Lashkar-e-taiba and Jaish-e-Mohammed are doing that job.

But I wasn't aware that it coincided with the Diwali festival.

Not just Diwali. The muslims festival of Eid is also close by. There is traditionally a lot of bonhomie between the two communities (exchange of snacks and feasts between neighbors, general festival mood etc).



I've just been private messaged <snip>.

Interesting.

AQ has not carried out any attacks against India. OBL rarely mentions India in his speeches. Not that it means that he loves India are anything like that, but he does not have to involve in this when the AQ affiliates like Lashkar-e-taiba and Jaish-e-Mohammed are doing that job.
Well, AQ is not THE most likely suspect, but they weren't one in Turkey as well until the Istanibul blasts.

Not just Diwali. The muslims festival of Eid is also close by. There is traditionally a lot of bonhomie between the two communities (exchange of snacks and feasts between neighbors, general festival mood etc).
And the bombings were aimed as a disruption of the mutual celebration? Yes, I suppose it would make sense.

I was just told that ANOTHER bomb was defused in Chandni Chowk.

Friends in Delhi tell me that the general mood is that of anger and bitterness. I hope the authorities clamp down on any rumor mongering that might lead to communal riots - because that is exactly what these attacks are aimed at. To trigger riots and try and get the communities into the vicious cycle of alienation-> extremism -> attacks ->riots ->more alienation and so on..

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1532867,000600010001.htm
The almost simultaneous explosions occurred within hours after a city court deferred sentencing a Pakistani national and his six Indian accomplices who have been convicted of staging a terrorist attack at the Red Fort December 2000, in which three people were killed.

Additional Sessions Judge OP Saini had on Monday convicted Asfaq Ahmed of Pakistan and his Indian accomplices Nazir Qasim and Yusuf Farooqui of waging war against India, a charge that carries the death penalty. The sentencing has been deferred to Monday. Four others have been convicted of lesser charges. Four people have been acquitted in the case.

Minister of State for Home Sriprakash Jaiswal did not rule out the hand of terrorists, saying it was the "handiwork of those who were backed by anti-India elements."

http://us.rediff.com/news/2005/oct/29delhi.htm?q=tp&file=.htm?headline=Over~30~killed~in%A0three~Delhi~blasts
50 killed in three blasts in Delhi

October 29, 2005 18:15 IST
Last Updated: October 29, 2005 21:19 IST

Terrorists struck in the capital in a big way on the eve of Diwali on Saturday triggering three explosions in two markets and near a bus killing 50 people and injuring over 70 others, including some foreigners.

The first explosion took place at around 1740 IST in the busy Paharganj market in central Delhi in which 11 people died and 60 were injured. The market, which is frequented by foreigners, was bustling with Diwali shoppers.
..
The blasts are suspected to be the handiwork of banned Pakistan-based Lashker-e-Toiba outfit.

An alert was sounded in the capital with the police chief asking people to be vigilant.
..
Preliminary reports said that just about an hour ago, police had received a call about a bomb placed in a bag in the Paharganj area. But before the police could get to the place, the explosive went off.

My gut feeling is that Lashkar-e-taiba. They are the only group which carries out daring attacks like these outside Kashmir. The attack on the Red fort, referred in the news piece in another post, was also by them.

Incidentally (or not surprisingly) LeT is the least touched terror org in Musharraf's "fight against terrorism". They are "banned" but they freely operate. Their parent org called Jamaat-ed-Dawa has even taken the lead in providing relief efforts to the earthquake victims..which will give them a greater pool to draw jihadis from.

And as if this is not enough, a train derails and more than 100 die in that
http://newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEL20051029085653&Page=L&Title=B+R+E+A+K+I+N+G++++N+E+W+S&Topic=0&NALGONDA:~Over~100~people~were~killed~when~Secunderabad-bound~delta~fast~passenger~train~derailed~with~seven~of~its~coaches~plunging...
Nalgonda train mishap: Over 100 bodies recovered


Bad day for India:(

Womble,
Have you come across the name Mohammed Majoodi based in KSA? Dunno if he is AQ or LeT. Caught his name as being involved in this.

Womble,
Have you come across the name Mohammed Majoodi based in KSA? Dunno if he is AQ or LeT. Caught his name as being involved in this.
AQ. He was wanted for sneaking into India to target US facilities.

http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level.php?cat=Terrorism&loid=8.0.223463916&par=0

My thoughts and prayers for those affected in this attack.

We need to put an end to this -- it's time to step on those who provide the funding, planning, and organization. I always have the sense that we're trying to catch the tail-end of the snake. It's time to deal more severely with the governments that aid and abet these acts.

ndtv says toll now 65.

http://www.ndtv.com/homepage/default.asp


it could have been worse if not for the heroics and quick thinking of these conductors and drivers
http://www.ndtv.com/template/template.asp?template=Terrorstrikes&slug=Serial+blasts+rock+Delhi%2C+at+least+65+dead&id=18069&callid=0&category=National
Another explosion was reported from Govindpuri in south Delhi. The explosion took place inside a bus, and four people have been critically injured.

There were at least 35-40 people travelling on a bus through Govindpuri when the conductor spotted a suspicious looking plastic bag on the bus that did not belong to any of the passengers.

He immediately asked all the passengers to get out of the bus.

"If it wasn't for the conductor and the driver, all the passengers would've died, I want to know what happened to them, I am grateful to them," said Afzal, an injured passenger.

There were just five people on board when the blast rattled the bus. But quick thinking and equally fast reaction of both the driver and the conductor saved the day for the passengers.

Both the driver and the conductor suffered injuries. The driver is in a critical condition.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1279527.cms

Two save many from another blastAdd to Clippings

[ Saturday, October 29, 2005 11:49:36 pmAGENCIES ]
NEW DELHI: Casualties were averted in a bus in the Govindpuri area of south Delhi due to the alertness of passengers and the driver and the conductor who threw out the bag containing the explosives before it exploded.

The bus was travelling on the Outer Mudrika route when an unidentified man entered the bus from the Kalkaji Mandir stop.

Later a passenger saw an unclaimed bag under a seat and alerted the driver Kuldeep and the conductor Budh Prakash. The conductor had already noticed the person hurriedly getting off the bus. The driver stopped the bus, and on checking explosives were found inside it.

The driver and the conductor carried the bag outside the bus and threw it away which exploded immediately on landing.

The driver and the conductor received minor injuries and are being treated at AIIMS.


Shopkeepers pitching in and saving many lives and limbs..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/4388352.stm
Myself and my girlfriend were 50m away from the huge blast on the busy Parah Ganj, when suddenly the explosion occurred knocking me off my feet. Carnage and chaos prevailed as people ran in all directions, screaming and in a state of shock. We took cover in a nearby shop. Shop keepers and market traders quickly closed their shops with the market traders using their carts as make shift stretchers.

It must have taken the emergency services 10 minutes to arrive on the scene. The word is that it's a suicide bomber who carried out the blast, on this busy market place where people were shopping for the Diwali festival. We were very lucky indeed as 30 seconds later we would have been next to the explosion.
Bradley Spencer, Manchester, England

Crazy stuff.

More than 50 confirmed dead. 3 to 6 blasts. Details are sketchy. Note that all the targets are predominantly hindu areas, especially markets which are busy since it is just 2 days to Diwali, the grandest of the hindu festivals of India.

<snip>


Speculating about responsibility for the attacks... by all appearances, it seems to be another islamic-based outrage. Almost certainly Pakistani. One of the eyewitnesses thought a homicide bomber was involved in the market, and the coordination of the blasts has islamic terrorist written all over it.

Is there any reasonable possibility it could be other than what it appears? Maoists or domestic groups with unknown motives?

As targets become increasingly hardened, the use of homicide bombs seems to become the less expensive option for terrorists. I wonder whether India can expect more of these, and whether this attack was tactical or strategic? Has the frequency of attacks or attempted attacks increased recently in areas that normally aren't threatened?

I would like to express my condolences to those affected by this crap.

My guess would be though on the usual Indian Muslims angry about the Pakistan-Kashmir thing and maybe getting support from organisations in Pakistan.

Again though, I don't think what the Pakistani government would have to gain from this, so I don't think they're directly involved (and they have enough problems on their own right now anyways).

Sabbatis,

Is there any reasonable possibility it could be other than what it appears? Maoists or domestic groups with unknown motives?

Sorry for the late reply.

No. This is definitely an islamist attack. Maoists are a problem only in certain districts in certain states.

This has got LeT involvement written all over it. For instance, the bombs were set off at evening time - a time when muslims break off their Ramadan fast. Although the bomb went off in an area where muslims also live, the timing was such that only non-devout (per their logic) muslims would be affected.

Some time ago, the Paki court convicted a Sikh (Sarabjit Singh) to death for allegedly exploding bombs in Pakistan. This was a cheap trick because the guy's family told the media that it is a mistake and that Sarabjit inadvertantly strayed into Pakistan and was held a prisoner since then and that Sarabjit is no spy.

What gave the game away was suggestion from certain circles that a prisoner exchange be done for Sarabjit and Afzal (the Paki who was given a death sentence for the terror attack on Red Fort).

The sentence was confirmed earlier and the serial bomb attack seems to be in retaliation for that (also aimed at inciting communal riots).

This is not new. Earlier in 1998, an Indian airliner was hijacked from Nepal and taken to Kandahar. We then had to release Omar Sheikh and Masood Azhar. Azhar promptly founded Jaish-e-Mohammed, which along with LeT, is the mosr virulently jihadi org in the region. Pakistani intelligence was the mastermind of the whole operation. During the negotiations, some dolt from the other side forgot to switch off the microphone and we recorded them talking to Pakistani intelligence officials and they giving the go ahead.


Has the frequency of attacks or attempted attacks increased recently in areas that normally aren't threatened?

Ever since it was made clear to the Pakis that India will not budge from Kashmir despite the jihadis killing 50,000 people and making a quarter million refugees, Pakis have been looking to widen the conflict outside of Kashmir and into the Indian heartland.

Frequency is the same, but the list of targets is being increased. Mumbai (Bombay) was bombed twice. Temples in Ayodhya and Akshardam (both far away from kashmir) were attacked. Even Coimbatore, a south Indian city was serial bombed.

Oh, when I say Pakis I mean the jihadi Pakistani establishment. I do not make any distinction between the jihadis and the Paki establishment. The establishment is a cover for the jihadis and the jihadis are a tool for the establishment. For me they are one and the same.

Neu Leonstein
My guess would be though on the usual Indian Muslims angry about the Pakistan-Kashmir thing and maybe getting support from organisations in Pakistan.

And your guess would be wrong.

What the hell is "Indian Muslims angry about the Pakistan-Kashmir thing".

Like how the Brit-Paki backpackers bombed London because they were angry about the UK-Iraq thing?:rolleyes:

Remember this.

This is not something that angry folks do in a moment of rage.

This is something planned and carried out by professionals with clear objectives and a message. Angry Indian muslims cannot get RDX from nearby chemist shop. It needs to be smuggled across the border into the country.

Again though, I don't think what the Pakistani government would have to gain from this, so I don't think they're directly involved (and they have enough problems on their own right now anyways).

On the contrary, everytime problems seem unsurmountable, a good dose of anti-India paranoia is what the Paki establishment needs to restore legitimacy.

Sorry, I do not buy this "poor Musharraf does not control everything" argument.

Either he is complicit (I include having knowledge and doing nothing to prevent it as also being complicit) or he is incompetent in controlling the islamist faction of the establishment.

He knows LeT will not stop carrying out attacks on India and he has not cracked down on them even after 4 years since he made a promise on a televised speech that he will not allow Pakistani soil for jihadis to attack India.
That speech (plus American persuasion and intimidation) saved his sorry country from Indian invasion.

If he is not able to keep his promise of not allowing the jihadis to attacks India, then what use is he? I would much rather directly deal with the islamist faction of his establishment.

What the hell is "Indian Muslims angry about the Pakistan-Kashmir thing".

Like how the Brit-Paki backpackers bombed London because they were angry about the UK-Iraq thing?:rolleyes:
Well apparently the bombers themselves did it because of Iraq among other things...their bosses may have different reasons.
Same here, I guess.

Remember this.
This is not something that angry folks do in a moment of rage.
This is something planned and carried out by professionals with clear objectives and a message. Angry Indian muslims cannot get RDX from nearby chemist shop. It needs to be smuggled across the border into the country.
So what are you saying? That the bombers were Pakistani nationals?
There are something like 140million Muslims in India - surely you could find three stupid teenage kids who agree with LeT's views.
But anyways, the bosses are the important people, and there is no easy short-term solution for erasing support for groups like LeT (especially since you didn't like any of my ideas I put up in the past).
I'd merely say that LeT base- and training camps are likely to have been hit by the earth quake as well, and that the cell would probably have been in India for a while now preparing this.

Sorry, I do not buy this "poor Musharraf does not control everything" argument.
But tell me what he would have to gain from this? Much of the Western World (outside the White House) knows very well about the problems with Islamic Fundamentalism in Pakistan - if he was to allow this stuff and not crack down on it, he'd be the first official to suffer.
His legitimacy is not threatened by anyone other than the Islamist corner, and apparently his recent peaceful dealings with India were perceived quite well in Pakistan.
I'd agree that there will be elements in the Pakistani Government and Military who have involvement in things like this, but you show me the organisation where every superior knows all his people's dealings, especially in a country with the size and infrastructure (or lack thereof) of Pakistan. Look at local commanders, don't look at Musharraf first - aggression between the two countries is just going to fuel more violence.

That speech (plus American persuasion and intimidation) saved his sorry country from Indian invasion.
And maybe a little bit of realism from the Indians? Like not wanting to start a possibly nuclear exchange? Or having to deal with another hundred or so million more angry Muslims?

If he is not able to keep his promise of not allowing the jihadis to attacks India, then what use is he? I would much rather directly deal with the islamist faction of his establishment.
I'm sure he would like to as well...but problems with the Pakistani education system have left him to deal with a population that would be very suspicious of any attempt to further secularise the country. Sometimes you have to be pragmatic in politics.
As far as his use is concerned, the alternative is Iran² on your border, and as harsh as it may sound, you might prefer an open exchange to some underhanded bombings, but the millions and millions who'll die probably won't.

Neu Leonstein - are you Leonstein in new avatar?

the bombers themselves did it because of Iraq among other things...their bosses may have different reasons.

Well, I would put the blame on the bosses. The problem why this "War on terror" is a failure is that it goes after the foot soldiers and not the bosses.

Every coordinated terror attack like these are cold and calculated murder, planned, orchestrated and facilitated by professionals. It is them we should be targetting (aside from tactical targetting of foot soldiers, of course).

There will always be some idiot who can be brainwashed to plant a bomb. It is impossible to stop people being idiotic.

That the bombers were Pakistani nationals?
There are something like 140million Muslims in India - surely you could find three stupid teenage kids who agree with LeT's views.

Yes. But there is only one LeT.

Do you get it now?

The bombers may very well be Indian muslims or Bangladeshi or Paki. But the planners are most certainly Paki.

there is no easy short-term solution for erasing support for groups like LeT (especially since you didn't like any of my ideas I put up in the past).
I'd merely say that LeT base- and training camps are likely to have been hit by the earth quake as well, and that the cell would probably have been in India for a while now preparing this.

I don't recall saying there is a short-term solution. A complete dismantling of the terror infrastructure in Pakistan is possibly the nastiest task in the world.

I disagree that LeT camps were hit and this is a splinter cell operation. The Jamaat-ud-Dawa (the pseudonym/parent org of LeT) has pretty much recovered in terms of organizational structure and is in the lead in providing relief in PoK earthquake areas. This could be their way of saying "we are back".

But tell me what he would have to gain from this? Much of the Western World (outside the White House) knows very well about the problems with Islamic Fundamentalism in Pakistan - if he was to allow this stuff and not crack down on it, he'd be the first official to suffer.
His legitimacy is not threatened by anyone other than the Islamist corner, and apparently his recent peaceful dealings with India were perceived quite well in Pakistan.

It keeps him in power. Everything revolves around that objective.

To elaborate,

Musharraf is not willing to let go of the islamists. Inability is an excuse he gives. It is a drama that he cannot crackdown on the islamists.

Paki watchers know what I am talking about.

He split the PML party so that the mullah party (MMA) can gain power so that he can say "Oh look mullahs are sweeping to power, help ..bolster my image..gimme arms and money..". This is a game he plays with perfection and the gullible western folks buy into it.

The idea that the jihadis are some sort of frankenstein monster who Musharraf does not control is something that Musharraf projects. Sorry, I don't buy that.

Read this article fully. It was written before 9/11.

http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/2001/0205/kashmir_sb1.html
Four bearded militants warm themselves at a gas heater in an Islamabad safe house. A wireless set suddenly crackles. "Our boys have entered Srinagar Airport," a grave, distant-sounding voice announces. "Pray for them. It has now been 15 minutes." The voice, speaking in Urdu and broadcasting from deep within India's part of Kashmir, is detailing the progress of a suicide mission by Lashkar-i-Taiba, a ruthless, Pakistan-based militant group waging war to wrest Kashmir from India. The four men in the safe house, also members of Lashkar-i-Taiba, immediately go into fervent prayer. They are not the only ones to receive the radio transmission. Other militant groups in Pakistan can tune into the same frequency. So can the Pakistani military. A phone in the house rings, and one of the militants answers. He is asked what's happening. His reply: "Why don't you find out from your side?" After hanging up, he explains the caller was a Pakistani army colonel.

Of the five main militant groups operating in Kashmir, four are based in Pakistan, where open recruiting and fundraising are commonplace. Training of militants is also done on Pakistani soil. The Pakistani military is deeply involved, especially in the smuggling of anti-Indian militants across the Line of Control.

Militant groups have roots all over Pakistan, from their well-equipped training centres in Muzaffarabad—the capital of Pakistan's slice of Kashmir—and the country's North-West Frontier province to the nice, middle-class houses in Lahore and Islamabad. Those houses may look no different from their neighbors at first glance, but what about the strange antennas on the roofs, the international phone lines and the transient occupants with unkempt hair, camouflage jackets and hiking boots? And what of those unmarked four-wheel-drive vehicles pulling up at dawn with clockwork precision? Here is an inside look at how Pakistan runs its covert war in Kashmir:

Recruiting and Training

There are thousands of young, motivated Pakistani men anxious to join the militancy in Kashmir, which they consider a holy war. They come from all walks of life: not merely from the religious schools known as madrassahs, or the far-flung, poverty-mired towns and villages, but also from Pakistan's educated and Westernized middle and upper classes. In the jihad they find brotherhood, a sense of mission and purpose. And for these highly religious volunteers, many of whom are still in their teens, there is nothing more sacred in life than achieving the status of a martyr. These are the grunts in the war. The leaders are Pakistani veterans of the Afghan war.

The largest training camp in Pakistan is run by Lashkar-i-Taiba, a wing of an Afghan mujahedin group known as Markaz Al Dawa Wal Irshad. It is set on a vast mountain clearing overlooking Muzaffarabad. (Training grounds for the other three militant groups are located in the North-West Frontier province.) Armed men guard the facility round-the-clock. There are only two structures, one an armory, the other a kitchen. Trainees live and sleep in the open, whether in the sweltering summer or the depth of winter. The field is dotted with installations used to teach the fervent young—some no older than 14—how to cross a river, climb a mountain or ambush a military convoy.

The day of a trainee begins at four in the morning. After offering prayers, the militants go for exercises. A breakfast of tea and bread is at eight, followed by a full day of rigorous drills, which are interrupted only for prayers and a simple lunch, usually rice and lentils. Coursework covers how to use sidearms, sniper rifles, grenades, rocket launchers and wireless radio sets, as well as the art of constructing bombs. The teachers are Lashkar veterans of action in Kashmir and Afghanistan. Sports, music and television are forbidden. Trainees are only allowed to read pre-screened newspaper articles.

Training is divided into two stages. The first three-week session gives religious education and basic knowledge of how to handle firearms. Once a volunteer has passed that course, which costs the organization about $330 per trainee, he is sent to a designated city or town, often near his birthplace, to work at the group's offices and become more involved with the organization.

When a volunteer proves himself capable, motivated and loyal, he is enrolled in a special three-month commando boot camp, which costs the group $1,700 per student. (The money is raised from overseas groups and the Pakistani public, often via open demonstrations in Pakistani cities of militants working out, scaling walls and showing other martial tricks. Generous donors are invited to visit the not-so-secret camps to see how their money is spent.) Phase two is designed to push each volunteer to his physical limit and cull the weak from the strong. In the final weeks, recruits use live ammunition, construct actual explosives and perfect ambush techniques. The final exam lasts three days. A group of trainees, sometimes as large as 100 individuals, hikes and climbs through high-altitude, wooded terrain for three days without food or sleep. They are not allowed to slow their pace except for a few naps. At the end the hungry and thirsty survivors are given a goat, a knife and a matchbox. That's their reward, and they have to cook and eat it in warlike conditions.

Going In

Only the fittest from each graduating group are given a chance at martyrdom across the border in Kashmir. The local commander makes his choice, and the fortunate few are dispatched to safe houses along the Line of Control known as "launching pads." (Parents' permission is technically required for anyone who opts for jihad. Many boys get it easily, but some who don't, fully submerged in the dream of martyrdom, pressure their parents into complying.) At the launching pad, while waiting for their marching orders, the boys write wills and what might be their last words to their families.

At this point, the Pakistani army plays a crucial role helping to arrange the infiltration of the militants across the Line of Control. Militants officially deny Pakistani army involvement, but those who fought in Kashmir tell Time that the wait at the launching pad is dictated by their leaders, who are in touch with the army. "Until an unmarked vehicle turns up at your safe house," says a veteran of Al-Badr, the first Pakistan-based militant organization to get members across the line, "you don't know when your number will come."

When it does, this is what happens: "The vehicle, covered from all sides, will pick up two, three or four militants according to the plan and dump them at one of the forward posts of the Pakistani army," the Al-Badr veteran says. "People in civvies give us arms, ammunition, food and money [Indian currency]. We are asked to check our weapons. After a day or two they give us the signal to go ahead." None of the boys is allowed to carry his own arms to the Line of Control, although sometimes an individual can choose a favorite AK-47 and find it waiting for him at the army camp along the line.

The next step is the most hazardous: from the Pakistani army post, the group embarks on a three-to-seven night journey into Indian-controlled Kashmir, traveling by night, hiding during the day. The group leader wears night-vision goggles. The rest follow blindly across the mountains. There are numerous obstacles: Indian mines, tracer flares, Indian border patrols anxious to shoot at them. "But whenever such a situation arises," says a Lashkar militant, "the Pakistani guns come to our rescue to provide cover."

Militants making the return trip go through a reverse route, ending up at a Pakistani army base—sometimes with souvenirs. Abu Haibatullah, 32, was sent across the Line of Control in the mid '90s with a particular mission: to bring back an Indian soldier for interrogation. He managed to ambush and disarm a soldier, but when the Indian tried to snatch Haibatullah's gun, he killed him. He then decided to return home with the soldier's head. "Lots of people came to see the head," he recalls proudly. "Some were from the Pakistani army and they praised me for my gallantry."

In the 1990s, the Pakistani militants hired local guides—ethnic Kashmiris—to help them get across the mountains and into India. "On a number of occasions," says Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi, 42, the supreme commander of the Lashkar-i-Taiba militants, "they took the money and tipped off the Indians. So we trained our own manpower." In other words, the Pakistani militants don't always trust the Kashmiris on whose behalf they are waging this war. The Pakistani militancy, which had its roots in the Afghan war, is now an institution unto itself.


Well, what has changed since Musharraf joined the "war on terror"?

Nothing. LeT is "banned" but they carry on their activities as before. Infiltration is still on. Training camps have not been touched. Well Allah took care of them for us, but Musharraf did jackshit in that regard. Hafiz Mohd. Saeed, the founder and leader, recently held a huge meeting in a cricket stadium, where he thundered that the jihad would go on.

The Pakistani army has the capacity to deal with this if they want to. But they don't want to. They have a cosy arrangement going on where the jihadis can have their jihad while Musharraf can claim to India that the army is powerless and at the same time claim from America that he is the only one capable of stopping the jihadis from taking over (so gimme money and arms). Plus the money from the conflict economy, drug money and money from saudi funders are too much to give up.

This is a game he has been playing and I am sick and tired of people repeating this to me.

but you show me the organisation where every superior knows all his people's dealings

The superior is accountable. If he cannot control his people's dealings, he has no business being the superior. Musharraf has made strong statements that he is indeed in control of the Pakistani intelligence and the Pakistani intelligence is in control of LeT.

We don't see LeT as a renegade group among the groups spawned by Paki intelligence (ISI). For us LeT *is* ISI.

And maybe a little bit of realism from the Indians? Like not wanting to start a possibly nuclear exchange? Or having to deal with another hundred or so million more angry Muslims?


LOL.

What angry muslims?

Where were these "angry muslims" when India dismembered Pakistan in 1971?

There ain't no angry muslims factor. This is largely a Paki fantasy.

Dec 12, 2001 - Pakistani terrorists attack Indian parliament. India moves strike corps to border. They were in no position to halt us. Peeing in his pants, on Jan 13, Musharraf made a promise that he will no longer allow Pakistani speech to be used for anti-India attacks. Americans vouched for Musharraf.

Musharraf has reneged on his promise and the Americans have too. I have little sympathy for both as of now.

What effing war on terror is this where it is Ok for Indians to be victims of Pakistani terror?

I'm sure he would like to as well...

And you would be wrong again.

He has no intention of giving up power.


but problems with the Pakistani education system have left him to deal with a population that would be very suspicious of any attempt to further secularise the country.

I don't care if Pakistan is secular or not. It is their country, their problem. Not mine.

My demand is only that the army stops exporting terror and keeps their stink inside. They can do their jihad on their Shia and Ahmedi population not on the Indian population.



As far as his use is concerned, the alternative is Iran² on your border, and as harsh as it may sound, you might prefer an open exchange to some underhanded bombings, but the millions and millions who'll die probably won't.

It is the other way. Iran would be another Pakistan, if it gets the bomb. Folks who support Iran getting a nuke bomb - this is what you would be seeing. Iran backed hizbollah blowing things at will.

By "dealing directly with islamist faction" means having the openly islamist in power (like Zia ul Huq), not somebody who pretends to be a moderate with all the games and dramas. Atleast with Zia, we could hurt them where we could. Now an American backed Musharraf, is insulated from any retaliation.

Here's a solution.

Let's give Musharraf more F-16s, that will teach him to behave:rolleyes:

Hmm, my aunt nearly got caught in the marketplace blast...

Markets are being opened again.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/10/30/news/scene.php
Despite the absence of shoppers, market workers were rolling out rails of saris and positioning elaborate displays of handbags, sweets and toys, in pointed defiance of the terrorists.

"We're not doing it for the money," Jasbir Singh, the owner of a clothes shop near the explosion, said. "We want to show that we're not afraid."

Local officials had given permission for the market to reopen swiftly in an attempt to display what they described as the "unbreakable spirit of Delhi."

The explosion here was the most devastating of three coordinated blasts, timed deliberately to cause the maximum number of casualties.

Through the narrow alleyways of this popular market, workers were trying to reconcile the processes of mourning for the dead and preparing to move on.

Colodia, is she ok?

Colodia, is she ok?
Except for realizing that had she stayed 5 minutes longer she would've been another statistic, yeah. Dad told me about how she is, and she's crying.

Neu Leonstein - are you Leonstein in new avatar?
Yep...a quick reminder never to post graphic pictures of war victims - even in a thread in which photos of soldiers shooting at people is the topic.

By "dealing directly with islamist faction" means having the openly islamist in power (like Zia ul Huq), not somebody who pretends to be a moderate with all the games and dramas. Atleast with Zia, we could hurt them where we could. Now an American backed Musharraf, is insulated from any retaliation.

Here's a solution.

Let's give Musharraf more F-16s, that will teach him to behave:rolleyes:
So is your solution open war?
We're all unhappy about these Indian civilians being killed, but do you really think an all-out war with Pakistan is going to make it any better?

I agree that India is more powerful militarily, but Pakistan is still no push-over, and they do have nukes. Once it looks like India is marching all over them, do you think an Islamic Leadership in Pakistan would hesitate for a second with firing nukes at New Delhi, or Mumbai etc? (And so far it doesn't look like the Pakistani Government is likely to give their few precious nukes to Terrorist groups - which still could easily get the idea that grabbing power themselves could be a good idea)
That's something I would like to avoid, even if that means having to deal with someone like Musharraf for the time being.

Yep...a quick reminder never to post graphic pictures of war victims - even in a thread in which photos of soldiers shooting at people is the topic.

lol..that is sad.


So is your solution open war?
We're all unhappy about these Indian civilians being killed, but do you really think an all-out war with Pakistan is going to make it any better?

I agree that India is more powerful militarily, but Pakistan is still no push-over, and they do have nukes. Once it looks like India is marching all over them, do you think an Islamic Leadership in Pakistan would hesitate for a second with firing nukes at New Delhi, or Mumbai etc? (And so far it doesn't look like the Pakistani Government is likely to give their few precious nukes to Terrorist groups - which still could easily get the idea that grabbing power themselves could be a good idea)
That's something I would like to avoid, even if that means having to deal with someone like Musharraf for the time being.

There is already an invasion going on.

What else do you call the act of an armed Pakistani crossing the border to subvert elected goverments and impose the will of the Pakistani establishment?

Is this is not an act of war, I dunno what is?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1280322.cms
Since 1994, over 50,000 have died in terrorist-related violence in India. According to the South Asia Terrorism Portal (SATP), 23,955 terrorists, 19,662 civilians and 7,320 security force personnel have been killed in such incidents between 1994 and June, 2005.

If this is not war, then what is?

The only reason why India did not cross the border into Pakistan in Jan 2002, was Musharraf's promise and Americans vouching for his sincerety. If we had gone in then, we could have atleast destroyed the training facilities and terrorist infrastructure.

Reg nukes, there are no nukes in Pakistani control. You think that after the AQKhan episode,US would leave nukes that can be proliferated to jihadis by a sympathising islamist general?

What the Chinese gave, they took away. The rest are under American lock and key - in exchange for keeping Mush's tush in power. Mush's part is to take care of jihadis targetting US, but he gets away with his jihadis targetting India.

Musharraf can crackdown on AQ type terrorists but not on anti-Indian terrorists? Who is he fooling? Not me.

Reg response to this attack,

Do you know that everytime we exercise restraint in the face of such attacks, it only emboldens them to try something new? Although I have been principally against the disproportionate retaliation policy of Israelis, I am getting a bit closer to that view everytime those attacks happen.

The only solution is in dismantling of the terrorist establishment. If that takes a brutal and bloody war, then so be it.



Read this gut wrenching account.
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=81124
Day 2: Scarred, Delhi fights back

3 families claim 2 kids in mortuary: ‘Believe me, a father can tell’

SOURAV SANYAL, RAGHVENDRA RAO & RAVLEEN KAUR

TRIPLE TERROR, 29/10, DAY 2NEW DELHI, OCTOBER 30 Utkarsh Gupta was around three-years-old. So was Nikhil. Maitreyee Bhattacharya was barely eight-years-old. And so was Nikhil’s sister Priyanka.

Hadn’t the profiles of these children been so similar, three shattered families wouldn’t have spent the entire day today trying to outdo each other in staking claim to two bodies that appeared to be of a three-year-old boy and an eight-year-old girl. Lying at the Safdarjung Hospital mortuary, they were among the 59 killed in Saturday’s triple blasts in New Delhi.

A group from Sasrouli village in Haryana’s Jhajjar district claimed to have identified the two bodies as that of Nikhil and Priyanka, children of IAF Sergeant Dilbagh Singh and his wife Suman (both died in the blasts). But two other families, one from Delhi and the other from Assam, staked claim to the same bodies.

‘‘Why are they doing this to me? Can’t a father recognise his own child? See his photo, do I need to clarify more. Now they are saying Utkarsh is not my son. Telling a father to disown his own son,’’ wept Anupam Gupta.

Meanwhile, Apurva Sharma was running around with a photo they had got clicked three days ago at India Gate.

An Assam government employee, Sharma lost his daughter Upamita in the Sarojini Nagar blasts. His wife Jyoti and daughter Nisha are battling for life at Safdarjung Hospital.

While Sharma claimed the body was of his companion Kumud Bhattacharya’s 7-year-old daughter Maitreyee, Sunder Lal of Jhajjar claimed the body was that of Dilbag Singh’s daughter Priyanka.

‘‘The teeth are exactly similar. Can two people have the same dentures? We have identified the bodies innumerable times but every time someone crops up to stake claim and we are put through the same ordeal,’’ said Sunder Lal.

The family from Jhajjar, escorted by IAF personnel, maintained that they had identified the children as Nikhil and Priyanka. ‘‘There is no doubt in our minds about the identities of our children,’’ said Rohtash, nephew of Dilbagh Singh.

Finally, when the three families agreed to cremate the bodies jointly (on the condition that a DNA examination would be done later to establish the identities), Delhi Police declined to hand them the bodies.

‘‘As per procedure, we will keep the bodies for 72 hours before a decision is made,’’ said a senior Delhi Police official. ‘‘To counter disputes which may arise at a later date, we have already collected DNA samples from all bodies,’’ said a doctor at Safdarjung Hospital. ‘‘These samples can be sent for examination to establish identities if need arises,’’ he said.

What do you tell the father?

That poor Musharraf is not reponsible for each and every terror attack in India? That "angry muslims" need to be factored in everytime we mull a response to the terrorist state of Pakistan?

What about angry Indians?

The Indian patience for taking pain is enormous. But there is a limit to our patience.

In my opinion, the restraint of India is a GOOD thing.
To my mind, regardless of the exact perpetrator, the bombers were trying to drive a wedge in the recent warming of Indo-Pakistani relations. The only thing to do is make sure peace efforts between the two continue, unless we want nuclear war.

I agree that american support of Pakistan isn't an ideal situation, but the US needed them to invade Afghanistan. However, as the summer meeting between Bush and Singh showed, the US isn't anti-India either

What do you tell the father?

That poor Musharraf is not reponsible for each and every terror attack in India? That "angry muslims" need to be factored in everytime we mull a response to the terrorist state of Pakistan?

What about angry Indians?

The Indian patience for taking pain is enormous. But there is a limit to our patience.
I think I understand (maybe I don't) this wish for revenge, or at least preemption...but ultimately, shouldn't the Indian Government be a little more pragmatic about this?

If they continue as they have, occasionally Pakistani elements will support terror-groups and hundreds of people may die. That is horrible.

But the alternative is that India invades Pakistan, which pits the second-largest army (manpower-wise) against the fourth-largest or something like that.
There is a lot of religious tension between the two, at least one of them has nuclear weapons at their disposal (and in the case of all-out war I'd be pretty sure the Pakistani government can get them out of some secret facility), and there just generally is a certain lack of goodwill.

I think 5 million dead is a reasonable estimate, don't you think? At the rate this has currently been going then, you'd have to assume that this terrorism in India will continue for 1100 years before it'd be worth it.

shouldn't the Indian Government be a little more pragmatic about this?

Should'nt the Indian people and their govt be the best judge of what's pragmatic and what's not?

We were stopped from carrying out our decision. Musharraf made a pledge. Americans vouched for his sincerety. Where are the Americans now? As long as Musharraf is catching the Arab terrorists and shipping them to Guantanamo bay, the Americans are happy. Who cares about some Indians dying here and there?

Btw, this is a list of incidents just his October. With the earthquake and all.
http://indiamonitor.com/news/readNews.jsp?ni=9163
Killings and Atrocities Committed by Terrorists
Sunday Oct. 30, 2005, Srinagar: The latest figures show terrorism in the valley of Jammu and Kashmir is still rampant as militants continue to kill, injure, kidnap and blast buildings and vehicles with bombs.
Kashmir Valley

07/08.10.05, Anantnag: Terrorists set ablaze a TATA Sumo (JK 03-6065) owned by Mohd. Hussain Dar, an Ikhwani s/o Mohd. Ramzan r/o Shangus, PS-Kulgam at Khijogipora, PS-Kulgam.

08.10.05, Baramulla: An encounter took place between troops of 4 PARA/SOG and terrorists at Dalri forest, PS-Dangiwatcha, during which one LeT terrorist identified as Mohd. Imran @ Umar (FT) was killed.

08.10.05, Anantnag: An encounter took place between troops of 36 RR/Police and terrorists at Sayain forest, PS-Kokernag during which three terrorists were killed and a civilian was injured in the crossfire.

08.10.05, Baramulla: An encounter took place between troops of 2 Garhwal/193 Field Regiment at Ganesh near LOC, PS-Tangmarg during which eight infiltrating terrorists were killed and one jawan of 2 Garhwal lost his life and two suffered injuries.

09.10.05, Anantnag: Terrorists shot dead Zoshi d/o Abdul Rather r/o Panzat, PS-Qazigund at his residence.

09.10.05, Pulwama: An encounter took place between troops of 4 PARA and terrorists at Narzalen forest near Kellar, PS-Rajpora during which one JUM terrorist Farid Paswal s/o Nazir Ahmed Paswal r/o Mujpathri-Keller, PS-Rajpora, was killed.

09/10.10.05, Anantnag: Terrorists barged into the house of Gh. Rasool Bhat r/o Arreh, PS-Kulgam and opened fire, causing death of his son, Nisar Ahmed Bhat and critically injured his daughter, Rozy Zan.

10/11.10.05, Kupwara: An encounter took place between troops of 15 JAT and an infiltrating group of terrorists at Jabran area, PS-Handwara near LOC, during which eight unidentified terrorists were killed.

11.10.05, Pulwama: Terrorists fired upon the vehicle of Mohd. Safi Banday, Congress activist, at a place near Gabbarpora, PS-Pulwama, while he was on his way to Srinagar from Shopian. Bashir Ahmed (PSO) was injured and Mohd. Iqbal (driver) was killed during the incident.

12.10.05, Baramulla: Police personnel of PS-Sopore recovered a dead body of Fiyaz Ahmed Dar (ex-HM terrorist) s/o Abdul Ajiz r/o Warpora, PS-Sopore from Zanpora, PS-Sopore who was killed by some unidentified gunmen.

12.10.05, Pulwama: Terrorists shot dead Ashiq Ahmed Ganai, a carpenter, s/o Abdul Rahim Ganai r/o Hatwara-Aloochibagh, PS-Pampore at Samboora.

13.10.05, Pulwama: A human bomb (Woman) exploded near Gurdwara, Awantipore, PS-Awantipore. Body of a woman exploded into three pieces. Reportedly three live grenades were recovered nearby the place of occurrence. She was identified as Jahanara Begum.

13.10.05, Baramulla: An encounter took place between troops of 15 RR and terrorists at vill. Dangarnar, near Khaitson, PS-Bandipore during which three HM terrorists identified as Abdul Rashid set-code Adil s/o Abdul Aziz r/o Lawaypora, PS-Bandipore, Noor Hassan s/o Noor Mohd. r/o Khaitson, PS-Bandipore and Makhdoom r/o Khaitson, PS-Bandipore, were killed.

13.10.05, Baramulla: Some unknown person hurled a grenade towards the house of Mehrajuddin Dar, a money lender, s/o Abdul Rehman Dar r/o Khaza-Gilgit, PS-Sopore which exploded without causing any harm.

13.10.05, Srinagar: Terrorists fired upon a patrol of 118 Bn. CRPF at Buchpora, PS-Soura due to which one constable of 118 Bn. CRPF was injured.

13.10.05, Kupwara: Terrorists fired upon an army convoy at vill. Lachmawara, PS-Handwara. No loss of life/injury was reported.

13.10.05, Anantnag: An encounter took place between troops of 36 RR/SOG and terrorists at vill. Chree-Panzgam, PS-Kokernag in which one HUM terrorist identified as Guljar Ahmed Khan s/o Ali Mohd. r/o Panzgam, PS-Kokernag was killed. In the cross fire, one civilian was also injured.

Jammu Region

09.10.05, Kathua: One Sardar Singh s/o Laira Singh r/o vill. Mawa, PS-Hiranagar was injured due to mine blast while he was working in his field.

09/10.10.05, Rajouri: Five terrorists (HM/PPR) came from Moda Dhar to Raj Nagar, Budal, PS-Budhal, Rajouri and dragged five Hindus from their houses and slaughtered them. The killed civilians were identified as Munshi Ram s/o Nehal Chand, Kala s/o Munshi Ram, Hans Raj s/o Munshi Ram, Shoba Ram s/o Karam Chand and Vickey s/o Shoba Ram on the suspicion of informers.

10.10.05, Rajouri: Militants (4/5 of HM/PPR) including one Yaseen, a deserted SPO) killed five Hindus at Mohra Gabba, vill. Raj Nagar, PS-Budhal identified as Kartar Singh s/o Sohan Singh, Gurdeep Singh s/o Kartar Singh, Punjab Singh s/o Kartar Singh, Kashmir Singh s/o Kartar Singh and Satvir Singh s/o Hakim Singh and injured Karnail Singh s/o Kartar Singh.

12/13.10.05, Rajouri: Terrorists killed one Abdul Majid s/o Shaik Hussain (42 yrs.) in vill. Chowkian, PS-Darhal.

13.10.05, Doda: 4 RR/Bhaderwah police killed a terrorist in Garh (RE-6492) Forest, a picnic spot situated at a distance of 4/5 kms. from Bhaderwah.

13.10.05, Poonch: An encounter took place between Army 31 RR/27 RR and terrorists at Peer Marg, Poshiana, PS-Surankot in which two terrorists were killed.
(Source : WNX)


I think 5 million dead is a reasonable estimate, don't you think? At the rate this has currently been going then, you'd have to assume that this terrorism in India will continue for 1100 years before it'd be worth it.

It is not in the numbers. It is the effect it is having on the socio-economic and political landscape. It is about the absence of deterrance that emboldens the terrorists to increase the rate, magnitude of the attacks and the sheer impunity they have displayed until now.

Let's say, tomorrow another attack happens. And then the day after that another happens. And another one. Do you get the point? I am not exaggerating, it is actually happening that way. You are just tuned out and not paying attention to the details.

50,000 dead in a decade. That is an enormous number whichever way you spin it.

You cannot stop terrorism by showing restraint.

It is not in the numbers. It is the effect it is having on the socio-economic and political landscape.
I agree that it is a terrible tragedy for those affected, but as a whole, India has been doing well despite Terrorism, right? So far it doesn't look like they are anywhere near winning.

It is about the absence of deterrance that emboldens the terrorists to increase the rate, magnitude of the attacks and the sheer impunity they have displayed until now.
Once the numbers work out, and you can realistically expect to save more people from dying by making war, you need to go and make war.
But despite everything, so far you would cause more suffering with war than you would without, and so I don't see war as an acceptable measure.

Let's say, tomorrow another attack happens. And then the day after that another happens. And another one. Do you get the point? I am not exaggerating, it is actually happening that way. You are just tuned out and not paying attention to the details.
The details are ultimately distracting you in this case though. You need to have a look at the totality of either action, and then make a decision.
As I said many times before: There is yet another alternative besides doing nothing or starting war.
You can use the relationship with Musharraf to influence what's happening in Pakistan over time, while at the same time strengthening your defence against attacks like this. Improve emergency response services, train police to spot and stop suicide bombers, raise awareness with the population and the like. In the short term, that is something that needs to be done, no matter what the future holds.
That's not defeatism, that's simply stating the obvious.

50,000 dead in a decade. That is an enormous number whichever way you spin it.
It most certainly is. But still, the millions that would die in a war is an even more enormous number - and at this point you are constrained by the reality that you cannot reduce the number to zero, no matter which decision you make. It's a matter of choosing the least bad solution.

You cannot stop terrorism by showing restraint.
And we've seen so very often now that you can't stop it with military force either. Bombing Afghanistan obviously hasn't stopped terrorism. Bombing Palestine obviously doesn't do it, nor did invading Iraq.
And whichever motivation you see for the Terrorists' actions, I'm sure we'd agree if I said that bombing a country into dust in order to get them, you'd end up with more angry people than before. And those angry people will eventually think about using force - it has always been that way.

The idea is to find a third way - but we would first have to sit down and think about it, and that seems impossible these days, with emotions running high at every corner.

More people have died in Paki sponsored terrorism than in the four wars (47, 65, 71 and 98) all put together.

Oh and add another 10,000 of the victimes of Khalistani (Sikh seperatism) terror to that 50,000.

You can use the relationship with Musharraf to influence what's happening in Pakistan over time

You are so friggin naive.

What makes you think that Musharrad is not the one who is influencing what is happening?

His statements?

This is the same Musharraf who used the very same jihadis in infiltrating Kargil which led to the Kargil war in 98.

An intercepted message from him and an army commander reads "We have them (jihadis) by the scruff of their neck.."

I don't see any evidence for his change of heart other than his inane blathering in press conferences. The idea that Musharraf is against jihadis is for the gullible fools to gulp.

I'm sure we'd agree if I said that bombing a country into dust in order to get them, you'd end up with more angry people than before. And those angry people will eventually think about using force - it has always been that way.

No. Not the people. Bomb the terrorist infrastructure, the training camps, the ammunition dumps. Bomb the army. Dismantle the army elite power structure and make way for real democracy.

Bombing Afghanistan obviously hasn't stopped terrorism

No, it has'nt.

Because the terrorists are coming from Paksitan. We should be bombing Pakistan.

Currently, the backers of the jihadi orgs - the higher ups in the Paki army and intelligence structure - are not made to pay for their crimes. They are actually being rewarded with toys and dollars from American and with this American protection, they are brazenly attacking India and getting away with it.

This has got to change. Until and unless the backers and protecters of terrorism are made to pay there will be always terrorism.

And we've seen so very often now that you can't stop it with military force either. Bombing Afghanistan obviously hasn't stopped terrorism. Bombing Palestine obviously doesn't do it, nor did invading Iraq.

Not again. How many times have we been through this? All the examples you bring up are characterized by the same fault- in all three cases, the party fighting against terrorism confined itself, for humanitarian, political and whatever other reasons, to shooting down individual bullets instead of going for the ones who held the gun. The Palestinian suicide bombers were fair game, but the top rank, like Arafat and even Ahmad fucking Yassin, were treated like fucking protected species, because these particular bloodsuckers happened to be the sweethearts of the "progressive" crowd in the West, including the press. The Muqata became nothing short of a place of worship the moment first threats against St. Yasser were made.

The same in Afghanistan: the US battles the terrorists where they can reach them- but they won't pursue them to their bases in Pakistan, and the Pakistanis are doing a lousy, half-hearted job on their own side of the border. And there is not even a hint of US willingness to go after the real power base of the Afghan terrorists- the mass movements like Jamaat e-Islami. They fight the foot soldiers, the "bullets"- while it is the ideologists who hold the gun.

If Zod were President, we would not have these problems.

http://www.zod2008.com/

The same in Afghanistan: the US battles the terrorists where they can reach them- but they won't pursue them to their bases in Pakistan, and the Pakistanis are doing a lousy, half-hearted job on their own side of the border. And there is not even a hint of US willingness to go after the real power base of the Afghan terrorists- the mass movements like Jamaat e-Islami. They fight the foot soldiers, the "bullets"- while it is the ideologists who hold the gun.

Its not even a lousy, half-hearted job. It is actually worse than that.

He just catches some Arabs who are always the #3 in Al-Qaeda and some goatherds in Pushtoon areas and sends them to Gitmo. This is then called victory in war on terror. He gets fancy toys, dollar aids and American protection against Indian offensives in retalitation.

This is a sham and we Indians are paying for this sham by our blood.

Musharraf has done nothing against the taliban and the anti-Indian factions and not to mention the anti-shia sectarian orgs who massacre shia Pakistanis. He cannot, because he himself was the prime mover of the policies behind the taliban and anti-Indian activities.

After all, Musharraf was the blue-eyed boy of Zia-ul-Haq. He must have learned the lessons from Zia very well, who was a pastmaster in fooling western administrations. In his urdu speech (not the English speech which was a sanitized version) explaining his U-turn on taliban following 9/11, he said his alliance with the west is like the Hudaibiya treaty that Muhammed (peace be upon others too) entered with the jews.

Look up what Hudaibiya treaty is.