NationStates Jolt Archive

God, how I detest Mr. Hobbes, and his little hell urchin Leviathan. I'm studying it for my Political Theory class. It is the sole focus of my hate and bad karma.

Screw the Iraq war! Screw taxes! Screw the poor!

I...Hate...Leviathan!

I hope you, Mr. Hobbes, are rotting in the Hell of Hell for writing such an abomination to the collective brain of Humanity!

[/rant]

I find your rant poor, nasty, brutish and short. :mad: :)

I find your rant poor, nasty, brutish and short. :mad: :)
With the exception of short, it's a typical rant.

It is times like these that I really wish I understood what other people were talking about.
On the other hand . . . no actually I have nothing more to say.

It is times like these that I really wish I understood what other people were talking about.
On the other hand . . . no actually I have nothing more to say.

Well, that's a first. :D

With the exception of short, it's a typical rant.

Yeh.. I was quoting Hobbes.

Yeh.. I was quoting Hobbes.

Quite clever. I give that a muy biueno.

God, how I detest Mr. Hobbes, and his little hell urchin Leviathan. I'm studying it for my Political Theory class. It is the sole focus of my hate and bad karma.

Screw the Iraq war! Screw taxes! Screw the poor!

I...Hate...Leviathan!

I hope you, Mr. Hobbes, are rotting in the Hell of Hell for writing such an abomination to the collective brain of Humanity!

[/rant]
Clearly because the Universities of Christondom mislead you...;)

I wonder...is there any PoliSci Student who is not a libertarian?

Seriously, I mean I do Econ, and as such I don't get to see PoliSci classes as such, but here and on my campus every single one of them is some sort of anglo-freak. Like there is no other forms of political philosophy besides Individualism.

Do they teach you to think that way?

I wonder...is there any PoliSci Student who is not a libertarian?

Seriously, I mean I do Econ, and as such I don't get to see PoliSci classes as such, but here and on my campus every single one of them is some sort of anglo-freak. Like there is no other forms of political philosophy besides Individualism.

Do they teach you to think that way?
Maybe people are just sick of the collectivism that has permeated society for thousands of years?

We all have those masterpieces that we hate. For me its Heart of Darkness.

We poli-sci students are really a cult. We burn effigies of Marx and Engels every Wednesday night, and then sacrifice a leftist virgin at midnight, and feast on her blood.

Good times...

Maybe people are just sick of the collectivism that has permeated society for thousands of years?
Two possible things:

Either
That really is the best way of doing it, afterall, Humans chose to live this way before any "oppression" was around, and even once it was, in most cases individuals were still happy to live in collectives, so to speak.
Who are you to think you know better than all those rational little individuals for all those millennia?

Or
Individuals are essentially a product of their environment, in which case it is society that matters, rather than the individual. One would turn the whole thing around - rather than society made up of individuals, individuals are "made up" of society...

F*cking Leviathan, F*cking Hobbes!

Yeah, those stinking rotten Hobbitses and that stupid old Smaug, that overgrown wyrm...


*looks at title again*

Oops, nevermind, I'm reading the wrong book :p

Two possible things:

Either
That really is the best way of doing it, afterall, Humans chose to live this way before any "oppression" was around, and even once it was, in most cases individuals were still happy to live in collectives, so to speak.
Who are you to think you know better than all those rational little individuals for all those millennia?
Because I rock.
Believe it or not, I’m not against collectivism when it is voluntary, which it was at one point. Or at least, I’m not against people having the right to be in a collective if they choose. Today, one must be part of the collective. That is what I am against.
Individuals are essentially a product of their environment, in which case it is society that matters, rather than the individual. One would turn the whole thing around - rather than society made up of individuals, individuals are "made up" of society...
I’m far too tired to try to understand what the fuck you’re talking about.

Today, one must be part of the collective. That is what I am against.
But you can leave if you want to. You can go to Antarctica, or into the desert or somewhere where no one lives, and live as a hermit.
I don't think hermits pay taxes or anything like that.

The matter is that the collective has enabled you to live your life the way you do. To now turn your back, but still benefit from it is impossible.

I wonder...is there any PoliSci Student who is not a libertarian?

Seriously, I mean I do Econ, and as such I don't get to see PoliSci classes as such, but here and on my campus every single one of them is some sort of anglo-freak. Like there is no other forms of political philosophy besides Individualism.

Do they teach you to think that way?

I always thought it was the econ majors who were big into libertarianism. I took a couple of first year econ classes and was pleasantly surprised to find out that there was a lot of emphasis put on the workings of free markets. (I realize this is partially because free markets are easier to understand than mixed economies, but still, the classes seemed very capitalistic.) Also, a friend of mine graduated with an honors in economics and told me that most of his peers tended to be libertarian (or at least fiscal conservative) in their thinking.

At any rate, I think one thing we can all agree on is that English majors are hippies. And incidentally, Heart of Darkness is a magnificent book.

God, how I detest Mr. Hobbes, and his little hell urchin Leviathan. I'm studying it for my Political Theory class. It is the sole focus of my hate and bad karma.

Screw the Iraq war! Screw taxes! Screw the poor!

I...Hate...Leviathan!

I hope you, Mr. Hobbes, are rotting in the Hell of Hell for writing such an abomination to the collective brain of Humanity!

[/rant]

Hobbes had a very dark view of Humanity which has been proven in many ways to be correct. You obviously did not understand the significance of his Social Contract Theory and how future thinkers shaped it (some would say softened it).

Yeah, fuck that authoritarian prick.

Yeah, fuck that authoritarian prick.
Cheers!

And happy 7000...:p

Cheers!

And happy 7000...:p

*Cracks open Beer.*

Cheers!

And happy 7000...:p

Hooooray for me!!!!

I wonder...is there any PoliSci Student who is not a libertarian?

HERE!!!

God, how I detest Mr. Hobbes, and his little hell urchin Leviathan. I'm studying it for my Political Theory class. It is the sole focus of my hate and bad karma.

Screw the Iraq war! Screw taxes! Screw the poor!

I...Hate...Leviathan!

I hope you, Mr. Hobbes, are rotting in the Hell of Hell for writing such an abomination to the collective brain of Humanity!

[/rant]
Yes, Hobbes was an idiot. Thank you Captain Obvious.

We poli-sci students are really a cult. We burn effigies of Marx and Engels every Wednesday night, and then sacrifice a leftist virgin at midnight, and feast on her blood.

Good times...
how times have changed... back in my day the polisci student sacrificed the unblemished children of the capitalist oppressors on the alters of marx and lenin and fought amoungst themselves if the left over entrails should be offered to the lesser shines of trotsky, mao or guevera.

Indeed, I also hate Hobbes, too. He has put immense barriers in debates on anarchism. You spend more time dealing with him than actually debatinbg anarchy itself.

God, how I detest Mr. Hobbes, and his little hell urchin Leviathan. I'm studying it for my Political Theory class. It is the sole focus of my hate and bad karma.

Screw the Iraq war! Screw taxes! Screw the poor!

I...Hate...Leviathan!

I hope you, Mr. Hobbes, are rotting in the Hell of Hell for writing such an abomination to the collective brain of Humanity!

[/rant]
go read some Rousseau and chill out ;)


ps: Hobbes is a twat.

People just have to acept that Hobbes is nothing without Calvin. Those guys should never have split...

I find your rant poor, nasty, brutish and short. :mad: :)
Holy crap! LMAO at work; I hope I don't get in trouble.

I find your rant poor, nasty, brutish and short. :mad: :)
You words are the money of fools :mad: ;)

I’m far too tired to try to understand what the fuck you’re talking about.
It's right out of Aristotle. Man is a political animal. It's in our nature to live in societies. Since at least half of our development of personality is attributed to what we learn, one could say that our society shapes us at least as much if not more than we shape our society. I'm not sure I agree with that 100%--I think we can determine what we do in reaction to society's influence--but I think that's the point being made.

Grrr! Warre!

Olara']Holy crap! LMAO at work; I hope I don't get in trouble.
lol just saw that... very good Dominguez :p

how times have changed... back in my day the polisci student sacrificed the unblemished children of the capitalist oppressors on the alters of marx and lenin and fought amoungst themselves if the left over entrails should be offered to the lesser shines of trotsky, mao or guevera.
Maybe it's just the need to be against the establishment...Communism is so far out of it that being a communist doesn't really mean anything anymore - it's not like you're a threat to society as a communist these days.
Libertarianism on the other hand is always good for shock value when you talk to your parents...;)

God, how I detest Mr. Hobbes, and his little hell urchin Leviathan. I'm studying it for my Political Theory class. It is the sole focus of my hate and bad karma.

Screw the Iraq war! Screw taxes! Screw the poor!

I...Hate...Leviathan!

I hope you, Mr. Hobbes, are rotting in the Hell of Hell for writing such an abomination to the collective brain of Humanity!

[/rant]
Oh, while his political theory is rather suspect, his idea of morals/ethics has become Contractarianism, and is rather good.

You seem to be one of those people who do indeed agree with Hobbes that life is short, brutish and nasty. Maybe you should read some John Locke. He might pick up your spirits.

We all have those masterpieces that we hate. For me its Heart of Darkness

Yeah I've read Heart of Darkness several times and I just don't get it. However, Apocolypse Now is a great flick. One of the books I do like is Catcher and the Rye. I've read that every year since my last year of high school trying to figure out why several assasins carry that book with them when they murder someone. A but that's another thread....

F*cking Leviathan, F*cking Hobbes!

Yeah, those stinking rotten Hobbitses and that stupid old Smaug, that overgrown wyrm...

*looks at title again*

Oops, nevermind, I'm reading the wrong book :p
You think you've got problems? I thought he was talking about the cartoon, "Calvin and Hobbes!" LOL!

For those of you who like Hobbes you should get into some Spinoza. He's just as good if not better.

Someone mentioned Calvinism. I still don't get that whole predestination thing. I mean if I was destined for Heaven and Hell when born and no matter what I did things would never change well I'd party my ass off. And if it was the times of Calvin I'd go drinking, pillaging and raping virgins. Probably do some MILFS while I was at it!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

Two possible things:

Either
That really is the best way of doing it, afterall, Humans chose to live this way before any "oppression" was around, and even once it was, in most cases individuals were still happy to live in collectives, so to speak.
Who are you to think you know better than all those rational little individuals for all those millennia?

Or
Individuals are essentially a product of their environment, in which case it is society that matters, rather than the individual. One would turn the whole thing around - rather than society made up of individuals, individuals are "made up" of society...
Or....you don't really know what collectivism is.

Or...you're equivocating on the term collectivism.

Aside: your second option is akin to something put forth by Hegel--that society/the state is pre-extant to the individual. This, of course, is utter nonsense.

Aside: your second option is akin to something put forth by Hegel--that society/the state is pre-extant to the individual. This, of course, is utter nonsense.
Society was there before I was. I'm willing to bet that society was there before you were too!
If you really accept that every individual is completely unique and independent of others, then it doesn't really matter whether there was a caveman that could already count as developed individual, but his family didn't count as society just yet - society was there before every one of us here, at least that much is certain.

Society was there before I was. I'm willing to bet that society was there before you were too!
So what?


If you really accept that every individual is completely unique and independent of others,
We are completely unique (unless you are an identical twin/triplet/etc), and independent of others in the sense that we are all differentiated.

Or are you going to tell me that DNA doesn't exist, or that part of my left arm is the same as someone else's left left?


then it doesn't really matter whether there was a caveman that could already count as developed individual, but his family didn't count as society just yet - society was there before every one of us here, at least that much is certain.
Again--so what? There must be individuals for there to be a society. Otherwise, it's just reification.

We are completely unique (unless you are an identical twin/triplet/etc), and independent of others in the sense that we are all differentiated.

Or are you going to tell me that DNA doesn't exist, or that part of my left arm is the same as someone else's left left?
DNA-wise yes, we're all unique, but as far as our brains, beliefs, attitudes etc are concerned, my argument would be that those are substantially formed by society, and that an individual as a whole is a product of society just as much as society is the product of individuals.

DNA-wise yes, we're all unique, but as far as our brains, beliefs, attitudes etc are concerned, my argument would be that those are substantially formed by society, and that an individual as a whole is a product of society just as much as society is the product of individuals.
No, nothing is formed by "society". Society is just a collection of individuals. Only individuals can do things. Only individuals can have influence. Society cannot, since society is just a conceptual stand-in.

No, nothing is formed by "society". Society is just a collection of individuals. Only individuals can do things. Only individuals can have influence. Society cannot, since society is just a conceptual stand-in.
I don't really care what you call it, you know.
At some point your parents, friends, mentors or whoever made a decision that believing certain things was in their best interest.
You being born into that environment formed your character, your attitudes, your perceptions, in short your vision (in a Schumpeterian sense - by the way if you haven't read Schumpeter yet, please do, I'm sure you'll have your fun with it).

And that vision can very well include a sense of "society" being worth something as a whole, of communal responsibility and the like.
Whatever the theories people thought of, in practice, in the real world, people care about society, people care about other people, and people care about the poor. And for the time being, that belief reinforces itself by being taught to the kids.
You'll have to respect that, for you can make a choice to not think the same way for yourself, but you have no "moral right" to make others feel like you do.

There must be individuals for there to be a society.
The individuals don't have to be human; the society doesn't have to be a human society. We can observe a certain very simple type of society looking at other animals - not just apes.

I think it is safe to say that human society appeared on the scene at the same time as human beings.

By the way, while society may or may not be able to do things (using the idea of herd mentality, perhaps it can?) it certainly can influence things merely by its presence. Society is not a thing, by the way; it is a network, and a process, within a group of individuals; much like your soul is not a thing, it is a network and a process inside your head.

A person cannot exist independent of society unless he has literally no contact with any other human beings - a hermit.

By the way, while society may or may not be able to do things (using the idea of herd mentality, perhaps it can?) it certainly can influence things merely by its presence.
Society has no presence. It is just a concept.


Society is not a thing,
Then why did you just say it has a presence?


by the way; it is a network, and a process, within a group of individuals; much like your soul is not a thing, it is a network and a process inside your head.
There isn't any such thing as a soul, either.


A person cannot exist independent of society unless he has literally no contact with any other human beings - a hermit.
So what?

I don't really care what you call it, you know.
Sucks to be you.


At some point your parents, friends, mentors or whoever made a decision that believing certain things was in their best interest.
You being born into that environment formed your character, your attitudes, your perceptions, in short your vision (in a Schumpeterian sense - by the way if you haven't read Schumpeter yet, please do, I'm sure you'll have your fun with it).
And you had nothing to do with it--you just went along with the flow, right?


And that vision can very well include a sense of "society" being worth something as a whole, of communal responsibility and the like.
It can, just like it can include other silly things like gods and governments.


Whatever the theories people thought of, in practice, in the real world, people care about society, people care about other people, and people care about the poor. And for the time being, that belief reinforces itself by being taught to the kids.
And people believe in god, too. That's reinforced by parents teaching it to children.


You'll have to respect that, for you can make a choice to not think the same way for yourself, but you have no "moral right" to make others feel like you do.
Did I ever say that I had that right?

Sucks to be you.
What's with the attacks again? I didn't do anything to you.

And you had nothing to do with it--you just went along with the flow, right?
Sure I had something to do with...my genetics moreso than perhaps this "free will" (the freedom of which is probably as difficult to establish as the real nature of "society").
But even if it's 50/50, fact of the matter is that "society's beliefs" matter a great deal to the kind of person one becomes.

What's with the attacks again?
What attacks?


Sure I had something to do with
No you didn't. You were just born into this society, and you absorbed it. You had no control over it. Your parents taught you things. It's all out of your control.


...my genetics moreso than perhaps this "free will" (the freedom of which is probably as difficult to establish as the real nature of "society").
Not really.


But even if it's 50/50, fact of the matter is that "society's beliefs" matter a great deal to the kind of person one becomes.
Only individuals have beliefs.

Society has no presence. It is just a concept.

Then why did you... say it has a presence?
Processes and networks are "present".

There isn't any such thing as a soul, either.
Not in the supernatural sense, no. I used the term to make it accessible to everyone.

Very well, since you dislike the word "soul"; your consciousness is not a thing, it is a network and a process in your body, primarily in your brain.

So what?
Being part of society is unavoidable for non-hermits. Unless everyone lived as a hermit, society would have a presence because it would exist - not as a concrete thing, but as the network and process I mentioned earlier.

-snip-
This is going around in circles now.
I'll post one explanation for what I think, and you are free to post your disagreement - but I'm not going to answer to it.

We are individual beings - we have no telepathic or otherwise collectivist connections I know of.
But ultimately I believe humans are nothing more than complex machines, which respond to inputs and return outputs.

Those inputs are things like your education, the beliefs of the individuals around you or other events in your life.
That gets them processed by the mechanism that you have, namely your body and your brain, which are determined by how the DNA grew it.
Then you produce outputs, namely beliefs and visions - and those make you make decisions and act a certain way.
The "free will" of the individual is thus nothing special or particularly sacred, it is merely the response to inputs, and the "free" decision we make is in fact not independent, but given by our past.

Society is the sum of everything the individuals are and do. There are cases in which society works in ways that single individuals wouldn't work in - namely in cases of "herd mentality" or the like, when the inputs are framed a certain way.

Ultimately thus I don't believe in the primacy of the individual. I do accept that people want to make their own decision, and wherever that's a good idea, I'd want them to. There are however cases in which it is clearly visible that one person's decision also affects many others, who don't get to decide (some would argue all decisions are like that - to them I would say that the external effects of many decisions may exist, but be so negligible that they don't really matter). In that case the individual's decision-making must take others into account, and only a representative of everyone's interest, namely a democratic government, can feasibly do so.

As far as Economics is concerned, I try to be as pragmatic as I can. Neither Statism nor Total Freedom is likely to actually provide a good solution. For the time being, when people have to work for their living (who knows, one day technology may change that), the market does the job of allocating resources well, but it needs back-up in a number of key areas (among them pollution, public goods, social cohesion/some income equality etc).

So there you go: A short explanation for my little world.

Ahahaha I sense a M0d3dit of this thread's title! :D

Processes and networks are "present".
Not in any tangible sense.


Not in the supernatural sense, no. I used the term to make it accessible to everyone.
It isn't accessible to me.


Very well, since you dislike the word "soul"; your consciousness is not a thing, it is a network and a process in your body, primarily in your brain.
And it relies on the brain to exist.


Being part of society is unavoidable for non-hermits. Unless everyone lived as a hermit, society would have a presence because it would exist - not as a concrete thing, but as the network and process I mentioned earlier.
Then you admit that society can't do anything.

We are individual beings - we have no telepathic or otherwise collectivist connections I know of.
But ultimately I believe humans are nothing more than complex machines, which respond to inputs and return outputs.
So we have no responsibility. Morality is meaningless.


Society is the sum of everything the individuals are and do. There are cases in which society works in ways that single individuals wouldn't work in - namely in cases of "herd mentality" or the like, when the inputs are framed a certain way.
But society doesn't work; the individuals do.


Ultimately thus I don't believe in the primacy of the individual.
Then you believe that society existed prior to that which comprises society, which is a contradiction.

Not in any tangible sense.
That's true. Intangibles, however, have real impact. Witness human behaviour.

It isn't accessible to me.
Fine, I'll use "consciousness".

And it relies on the brain to exist.
Yep. Society requires humans to exist, too. However, since (with the exception of hermits) society is a constantly present phenomenon, and since individuals tend to respond strongly to it, it's hard to dismiss it and still form a model that makes sense.

Then you admit that society can't do anything.
Society can't do anything except exist as a phenomenon. True enough. Its importance is how we react to it as if it had an existence capable of doing things.

Society, what is society, really? I would say it's the perceived whole of everyone's actions and ideas. Perhaps the issue at hand is not what society can and cannot do, but what society is and is not.

That's true. Intangibles, however, have real impact. Witness human behaviour.
That's a tangible thing.



Yep. Society requires humans to exist, too. However, since (with the exception of hermits) society is a constantly present phenomenon, and since individuals tend to respond strongly to it, it's hard to dismiss it and still form a model that makes sense.
Oh, you can dismiss it as anything tangible.


Society can't do anything except exist as a phenomenon. True enough. Its importance is how we react to it as if it had an existence capable of doing things.
I react to individuals.


Society, what is society, really? I would say it's the perceived whole of everyone's actions and ideas. Perhaps the issue at hand is not what society can and cannot do, but what society is and is not.
Society is not something real.

God, how I detest Mr. Hobbes, and his little hell urchin Leviathan. I'm studying it for my Political Theory class. It is the sole focus of my hate and bad karma.

Screw the Iraq war! Screw taxes! Screw the poor!

I...Hate...Leviathan!

I hope you, Mr. Hobbes, are rotting in the Hell of Hell for writing such an abomination to the collective brain of Humanity!

[/rant]

I agree with this statement 100%. I had to read an excerpt from it and it really was annoying. It probably did come from the devil himself.

When trying to model human behaviour, which is what political science is about, it's hard to see people reacting to something which isn't tangibly there and dismiss it as a factor irrelevant to behaviour. And dismissing tangible factors that affect behaviour, in modeling, seems even worse.

I'm kind of confused as how you can model the way we act in groups when you dismiss what seem to be important factors, important meaning they affect behaviour in some way. I admit, I'm totally lost.

When trying to model human behaviour, which is what political science is about, it's hard to see people reacting to something which isn't tangibly there and dismiss it as a factor irrelevant to behaviour. And dismissing tangible factors that affect behaviour, in modeling, seems even worse.
The individuals are there. You can see what they do. But society isn't there, tangibly.


I'm kind of confused as how you can model the way we act in groups when you dismiss what seem to be important factors, important meaning they affect behaviour in some way. I admit, I'm totally lost.
Because I don't dismiss those factors; I simply state them in a proper way that doesn't involve the fallacy of reification.

God, how I detest Mr. Hobbes, and his little hell urchin Leviathan. I'm studying it for my Political Theory class. It is the sole focus of my hate and bad karma.

Screw the Iraq war! Screw taxes! Screw the poor!

I...Hate...Leviathan!

I hope you, Mr. Hobbes, are rotting in the Hell of Hell for writing such an abomination to the collective brain of Humanity!

[/rant]
Hmmmm, where to begin.... *scratching my head*

I LOVED Leviathan. Absolutely loved it - even though I don't agree with him on, well, just about everything :)

Hobbes was an important stepping stone on the way to where we are, and where we're headed. Great book, and a must read!

God, how I detest Mr. Hobbes, and his little hell urchin Leviathan. I'm studying it for my Political Theory class. It is the sole focus of my hate and bad karma.

Screw the Iraq war! Screw taxes! Screw the poor!

I...Hate...Leviathan!

I hope you, Mr. Hobbes, are rotting in the Hell of Hell for writing such an abomination to the collective brain of Humanity!

[/rant]

Hmmm...you are also in east lansing...talking polisci...oh dear god a possible JM student