NationStates Jolt Archive

I've been wondering for a while, it's always accepted as something of a given...but I don't quite know why:

So this is probably primarily a question for the Americans out there:

Is it...

...military necessity? I can't really imagine why that piece of land would be that important to the Americans, considering that their support started pretty much straight away in 1949. Israel doesn't have any oil either, nor are there actually any US bases there.

...pity? That's kind of twisted, but do you think America is Israel's good friend because of the holocaust and maybe some sense of pity or even guilt? Why is it only the Jews then, and not the Armenians or other victims of genocidal maniacs?

...lobby groups? This smells a lot like vast Jewish conspiracy, and I don't like the sound of it. Surely there are plenty of Arab lobby groups in the states too.

...religion? I heard that some fundamentalist Christian groups think that Israel is somehow linked with the fate of the world, ie that if Israel was to fall, that would somehow mean Armageddon had come. I don't get it, maybe someone has heard the proper explanation.

...something else I haven't thought of?

And I'll thank in advance not to start turning this into the usual "Israeli terrorists vs Arab terrorists" business. :)

Evalgelicals pressure groups. It sounds a little insane, but many Christian Churches believe that the Israeli nation must be restored before Christ can return.

I think part of it was that they are a democracy, not literaly but in the general sense, as well as a few of the other reasons; guilt, lobbiests, ally in the region, ect

The single biggest reason I can think of is because we've developed this sort of complex or somesuch over the Jews after WW2: everyone felt a little ridiculous after the fact [and rightly so], so a lot of effort was made to patch things up. Since we liberated many of them from the Nazis way back then, we think [consciously or not] that we'd would look pretty stupid if they just got manhandled again.

Although, Israel is pretty badass in its own backyard. I wouldn't mess with the Mossad; those cats'll fuck you up.

I've always thought that the US and its European allies supported Israel after WWII out of a sense of guilt for the holocaust. After that it seemed to be a mixture of "It's always been like that," "They're small and outnumbered," and "They're the democracy in the Middle East." This is about all I've heard, and other than that I really can't tell you.

Oh, and there are people who believe that the Israel situation is tied to the end of the world. Mostly they have shows on TV at 1 am or so.

Olara']I've always thought that the US and its European allies supported Israel after WWII out of a sense of guilt for the holocaust. After that it seemed to be a mixture of "It's always been like that," "They're small and outnumbered," and "They're the democracy in the Middle East." This is about all I've heard, and other than that I really can't tell you.

Oh, and there are people who believe that the Israel situation is tied to the end of the world. Mostly they have shows on TV at 1 am or so.
This sums it up a lot beter than my earlier comment.

Actually, I think it is a mixture of lobby groups and apathy. You also have to remember that it is not just jewish lobby groups that are interested in isreal however, but also evangelical christians, who are very keen to support it as part of their agenda.

Additionally, the rest of the population doesn't really know enough or care about the middle east to make a fuss over it, so they just go with the flow. (Though that is changing a lot, and has been since the 80s).

But despite the fact that Europe should probably feel equally "guilty" about the Holocaust, it seems that the US-Israel relationship still is a rather special one.
It's not like the EU is anti-semitic, yet they don't support Israel in everything they do. America does pretty much.

Personally, I'm voting for the military-diplomacy thing. The US wants a strong ally in the Middle East, and whatever else its faults may be, Israel has one heck of a tough military.

During the Cold War, Israel, combined with Turkey, was an ideal launching point to repel a Soviet invasion into the area, which was a rather fetching target right on Soviet borders, nice and full of oil.

More recently, the area has grown ever more unstable, and the US has become ever more thirsty for petroleum. Therefore, having a tough ally in the area is all good, so far as Washington is concerned.

I think that religion does have some role. Christians feel a strong connection to Judiasm; to them, Judaism may feel more like another sect of Christianity than a completely different religion; this impression has only been deepened by the severe backlash against anti-Semitism caused by the Holocaust. Islam isn't like that; Christians see Islam as the 'other side' of the Judea-centered monotheistic religions. Therefore, Christian American politicians are going to be much friendlier with a predominantly Jewish state than with the surrounding Islamic states, especially since Israel is at least resembles a democracy, where the other nations in the area are harsh dictatorships (with the exception of Turkey).

Side note: While there are pro-Arab lobbyists (who have had a hard task set for them, after 9/11), on this issue they are competing with Jewish lobby groups. There are more Jews in the US than Arabs and/or Muslims, and Jews tend to have influence disproportionate to their numbers (which I attribute to strong family ties and traditions toward prosperous middle class careers); therefore, Arabic lobbyists are outnumbered and outgunned when it comes to Israel.

Also, the lobby groups for isreal have firm ties with both sides of the political spectrum in the US. Meaning that there are a lot of pro-isreal democrats, and republicans. There isn't much to choose from policy wise.

But despite the fact that Europe should probably feel equally "guilty" about the Holocaust, it seems that the US-Israel relationship still is a rather special one.
It's not like the EU is anti-semitic, yet they don't support Israel in everything they do. America does pretty much.

It's because Israel has had to use a lot of force to keep its territory, and we've been selling them most of their weapons.. we have a mutually beneficial business relationship, and, as others have mentioned, a reliable base of operations in the Middle East if we ever seriously need it..

...Therefore, Christian American politicians are going to be much friendlier with a predominantly Jewish state than with the surrounding Islamic states...
Not Jordan though. America loooves Jordan! :D
Particularly since their king was on Star Trek...:rolleyes:

Not Jordan though. America loooves Jordan! :D
Particularly since their king was on Star Trek...:rolleyes:

Well, alright. According to the CIA Factbook (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/jo.html), Jordan has been heading in a more democratic direction. Without US intervention and without violence, notably. Yay, peaceful spread of democracy in the Middle East without the US mucking things up!

The United States was and continues to be home to one of the most powerful Jewish communities in the world. It is only natural they would support Israel.

I've been wondering for a while, it's always accepted as something of a given...but I don't quite know why:

So this is probably primarily a question for the Americans out there:

Is it...

...military necessity? I can't really imagine why that piece of land would be that important to the Americans, considering that their support started pretty much straight away in 1949. Israel doesn't have any oil either, nor are there actually any US bases there.

No! It is not military necessity.


...pity? That's kind of twisted, but do you think America is Israel's good friend because of the holocaust and maybe some sense of pity or even guilt? Why is it only the Jews then, and not the Armenians or other victims of genocidal maniacs?

While we wish that all the wronged peoples of the world can be helped, idealism does not hold up well in the real world. One has to remember that after the Second World War the Jews of Europe found themselves alone in a war torn continent surrounded by people who utterly hated them (and had previously tried to exterminate them).


...lobby groups? This smells a lot like vast Jewish conspiracy, and I don't like the sound of it. Surely there are plenty of Arab lobby groups in the states too.

Everyone has a lobby in Washington these days. Arab lobbies don't have as much pull. Supporting Israel for many Politicians is a painless decision.


...religion? I heard that some fundamentalist Christian groups think that Israel is somehow linked with the fate of the world, ie that if Israel was to fall, that would somehow mean Armageddon had come. I don't get it, maybe someone has heard the proper explanation.

A lot of fundamentalists believe that (their crazy).



Your forgetting that Israel is the only liberal democracy in the region.

Why does America like Israel?

The food.

Excellent question. I am sure that there are many different answers, but I think this article probably accounts for the difference of opinion better than anything i could put into words.

http://www.netanyahu.org/whyamsupisan.html

The single biggest reason I can think of is because we've developed this sort of complex or somesuch over the Jews after WW2: everyone felt a little ridiculous after the fact [and rightly so], so a lot of effort was made to patch things up. Since we liberated many of them from the Nazis way back then, we think [consciously or not] that we'd would look pretty stupid if they just got manhandled again.

Although, Israel is pretty badass in its own backyard. I wouldn't mess with the Mossad; those cats'll fuck you up.


This is basically in my eyes the reason for it. Also I can't help to think that the allies setup Israel to punish the Arab leadership for Nazi collaberation and cooperation. However I do know that most of the middle east was under "Ally" control. They still rooted for the Nazi's

I've been wondering for a while, it's always accepted as something of a given...but I don't quite know why:

So this is probably primarily a question for the Americans out there:

Is it...

...military necessity? I can't really imagine why that piece of land would be that important to the Americans, considering that their support started pretty much straight away in 1949. Israel doesn't have any oil either, nor are there actually any US bases there.

Well, we've been selling them weapons for a long time now. The defense industry certainly likes our current relationship.

Israel has also acted as a counterweight to Iran since the overthrow of the Shah, and they have proven time and again that they are able to defeat their neighbors in conventional warfare.

It's nice to have the big boy on the block as your ally.

...pity? That's kind of twisted, but do you think America is Israel's good friend because of the holocaust and maybe some sense of pity or even guilt? Why is it only the Jews then, and not the Armenians or other victims of genocidal maniacs?

This has something to do with it. I think Melkor did a better job than I could explaining why.

...lobby groups? This smells a lot like vast Jewish conspiracy, and I don't like the sound of it. Surely there are plenty of Arab lobby groups in the states too.

This has been covered, I think. The Jewish lobby groups are larger and have more influence than the Arab ones.

...religion? I heard that some fundamentalist Christian groups think that Israel is somehow linked with the fate of the world, ie that if Israel was to fall, that would somehow mean Armageddon had come. I don't get it, maybe someone has heard the proper explanation.

While I personally think this "reason" is pretty stupid, and has no basis in fact, there are many people who think this way. Some are in government.

...something else I haven't thought of?

At the moment, Israel is the only true democracy in the region.

As you can see, I think it's a combination of all of these things. :)

At the moment, Israel is the only true democracy in the region.
To you and all the others who say that:
What about Jordan? It's about as democratic as any other place. Then there's Egypt, which recently had elections (and yes, everyone cried foul)

Then there's Iran, which allows its people to choose, although candidates are checked for ethical cleanliness (the US does that by itself without official involvement).

To be quite blunt it is because america know pretty much paid for israel they give israel millions of dollars every year in return they have a little outpost in the middle east.

Jordan...hmm, let's see...the King...

- Signs and executes all laws
- His vetos can only be overruled by 2/3 in both houses of National Assembly
- Approves amendments and declares war
- Appoints and council of ministers, and dismisses indivivual ministers at the request of the Prime Minister (head of council of ministers)

Ok, no problems here so far...oh wait...

- Appoints AND dismisses judges
- Appoints Governors
- Can dissolve National Assembly*
- The National Assembly MUST consist of 71 Muslims and 9 Christians (what, so if the people vote otherwise it doesn't matter? What about Jews or Atheists, or anyone else??)
- Appoints all 40 members of the Senate (which is supposedly involved in the veto process)

*Yes I'm aware that the head of government has this power in many democracies, however, the role of head of government is usually ALSO subject to a new election in such a circumstance. Are you saying that such holds true in Jordan?? I don't think so.

---

In short, Jordan might be considered a "democracy" given that the National Assembly is elected by proportional representation...but given that essentially ALL power still rests with the King, I think I'll pass on considering it a true democracy, especially when compared to Israel.

I'll give them this though, at least they have universal sufferage for the National Assembly elections. Too bad the age limit is 20...must be a cultural thing.

I can try and pick apart Egypt and Iran too, if you like.

....There are more Jews in the US than Arabs and/or Muslims...Got any numbers?

.... Christians feel a strong connection to Judiasm; to them, Judaism may feel more like another sect of Christianity than a completely different religion...Any Christians here that feel that way?

Please raise your hand and be counted...

Jordan...hmm, let's see...the King...

- Signs and executes all laws
- His vetos can only be overruled by 2/3 in both houses of National Assembly
- Approves amendments and declares war
- Appoints and council of ministers, and dismisses indivivual ministers at the request of the Prime Minister (head of council of ministers)

Ok, no problems here so far...oh wait...

- Appoints AND dismisses judges
- Appoints Governors
- Can dissolve National Assembly*
- The National Assembly MUST consist of 71 Muslims and 9 Christians (what, so if the people vote otherwise it doesn't matter? What about Jews or Atheists, or anyone else??)
- Appoints all 40 members of the Senate (which is supposedly involved in the veto process)

*Yes I'm aware that the head of government has this power in many democracies, however, the role of head of government is usually ALSO subject to a new election in such a circumstance. Are you saying that such holds true in Jordan?? I don't think so.

---

In short, Jordan might be considered a "democracy" given that the National Assembly is elected by proportional representation...but given that essentially ALL power still rests with the King, I think I'll pass on considering it a true democracy, especially when compared to Israel.

I'll give them this though, at least they have universal sufferage for the National Assembly elections. Too bad the age limit is 20...must be a cultural thing.

I can try and pick apart Egypt and Iran too, if you like.
Iran and Venezuela are more of a Democracy than the US.

-snip-
So if a democracy is not organised along the lines of the US, it's not real?

The king may have such powers (like the US president has), and he may not be the one to be voted on.
Nonetheless, the people there don't complain AFAIK (except those that want more Islamic laws), the country is very free and liberal economically and socially and the king is a pro-freedom kinda guy. In practice, Jordan is just as free as Israel.

And I'm sure you can pick on the other two as well, but again you have to keep in mind that in other cultures and other countries things will be handled differently. Unless a system is thoroughly imposed on a nation (like in Iraq now), it will take into account the history, culture and tradition of the people.

So if a democracy is not organised along the lines of the US, it's not real?

The king may have such powers (like the US president has), and he may not be the one to be voted on.
Nonetheless, the people there don't complain AFAIK (except those that want more Islamic laws), the country is very free and liberal economically and socially and the king is a pro-freedom kinda guy. In practice, Jordan is just as free as Israel.

And I'm sure you can pick on the other two as well, but again you have to keep in mind that in other cultures and other countries things will be handled differently. Unless a system is thoroughly imposed on a nation (like in Iraq now), it will take into account the history, culture and tradition of the people.

I'm fully aware that there are variances in Democracy. I'm going for a political science major.

History and culture have EVERYTHING to do with the government of a nation.

I love the assumption that I'm just some ignorant American who thinks that his own political system is preferable to any other...

Ask 100 people their definition of democracy, and you'll get 100 different answers...but one that I like is that the government can be held to account by the people.

Certainly NOT the case in Jordan, where the King is the ultimate authority, and has control over almost every level of government, including one of the bodies responsible for holding executive power in check through veto.

You also sidestepped the religious quota issue in the National Assembly (the only elected body)...I ask you: How is such a system truly democratic?

The country may very well be as socially and economically "free" as any other...but it only takes one bad-intentioned King to mess up such freedom, and there is no way to hold him to account.

In my opinion...not democracy.

You also sidestepped the religious quota issue in the National Assembly (the only elected body)...I ask you: How is such a system truly democratic?
It's a product of Jordan's past. The same should go for Iraq by the way, so that all groups are represented properly.
Just think of it as two different parliaments working side by side.

Jordan...hmm, let's see...the King...

- Signs and executes all laws
- His vetos can only be overruled by 2/3 in both houses of National Assembly
- Approves amendments and declares war
- Appoints and council of ministers, and dismisses indivivual ministers at the request of the Prime Minister (head of council of ministers)

Ok, no problems here so far...oh wait...

- Appoints AND dismisses judges
- Appoints Governors
- Can dissolve National Assembly*
- The National Assembly MUST consist of 71 Muslims and 9 Christians (what, so if the people vote otherwise it doesn't matter? What about Jews or Atheists, or anyone else??)
- Appoints all 40 members of the Senate (which is supposedly involved in the veto process)

*Yes I'm aware that the head of government has this power in many democracies, however, the role of head of government is usually ALSO subject to a new election in such a circumstance. Are you saying that such holds true in Jordan?? I don't think so.

---

In short, Jordan might be considered a "democracy" given that the National Assembly is elected by proportional representation...but given that essentially ALL power still rests with the King, I think I'll pass on considering it a true democracy, especially when compared to Israel.

I'll give them this though, at least they have universal sufferage for the National Assembly elections. Too bad the age limit is 20...must be a cultural thing.

I can try and pick apart Egypt and Iran too, if you like.

Just a quick note, The British Monarch also has all the above powers that the King of Jordan has and can not have her veto overruled. The senate is like the house of Lords where the queen at the advice of the prime minister decides who becomes life-long members. etc

My point is that you can still have a democracy even when the head of state has such powers and is unelect.

To answer the initial question: I think all your reasons (except end of the world argument) and Israel being most democratic are true. I think the British at first took on the duty of looking out and supporting Israel when it was first formed but the U.S. took over this when the U.K. couldn't keep to its obligations.

The food.

I don't know. What do you have as an Israeli specialty?

...religion? I heard that some fundamentalist Christian groups think that Israel is somehow linked with the fate of the world, ie that if Israel was to fall, that would somehow mean Armageddon had come. I don't get it, maybe someone has heard the proper explanation.
Rape the Earth! Take her oil! Make a new Isreal, so when The Day comes, we're not all f***ed! That, and the whole Zionism thing after WWII. Really popular stuff after that mess.

I got nothing against Isreal and Jews anyhow. But if this minority is to have a home, what about the Kurds and Tibetains?

Israel is a democratic nation in a sea of corrupt regimes headed by presidents for life. Israel is also an important partner in developing high-tech products for consumers and the military. Why wouldn't we support Israel? Because a bunch of terrorists threatened us? Fuck them.

There is a large Jewish community in America which fled from Europe before WWII, and this is (proportional to its share of the population at least) quite powerful because many of these people were professionals, or businessmen.

...lobby groups? This smells a lot like vast Jewish conspiracy, and I don't like the sound of it. Surely there are plenty of Arab lobby groups in the states too.

Arabs do not make up a significant proportion of American society, and most arabs in America are poor and widely hated, so no one really cares about them.

Iran and Venezuela are more of a Democracy than the US.
Bwahahahaha. Actually, you might be correct that Venezuela is closer to direct democracy than the US, but the idea that Iran is more democratic than the US is fucking hilarious. As for direct democracy, it has quite a few downsides. Mob Rule is never a good thing, unless you are that type of utilitarian. As for Iran, all must be approved by the mullahs and they completely falsified turnout in their last elections.

Israel is a democratic nation in a sea of corrupt regimes headed by presidents for life. Israel is also an important partner in developing high-tech products for consumers and the military. Why wouldn't we support Israel? Because a bunch of terrorists threatened us? Fuck them.
Shhhhhhhhhh, you're waking up the kids from their sweet dreams about all-powerful Jewish lobbies and evil Evangelicals ruling America. Don't be so sensible, let them play know-it-alls for now. They'll learn the truth... once they're in the third grade.:D

Iran and Venezuela are more of a Democracy than the US.

How much rent do you pay for that fantasy world you live in? :rolleyes:

How about because Israel is our closest ally in the world. We've always found our aims to be condusive with one another. Whereas the Islamist states want both Israel and the US destroyed. So it kind of makes sense.........

Israelis are hypocritical bastards , didnt like the nazis pushing them around but dont mind doing it to the arabs in that region. they didnt like the nazis going after lebensraum but expect a land to be given to them

Israelis are hypocritical bastards , didnt like the nazis pushing them around but dont mind doing it to the arabs in that region. they didnt like the nazis going after lebensraum but expect a land to be given to them

To compare Nazi Germany with the present Middle East situation is absurd. Israel practices retaliation, not genocide. Only the arabs want to completely destroy everyone that doesn't agree with them.

Israelis are hypocritical bastards , didnt like the nazis pushing them around but dont mind doing it to the arabs in that region. they didnt like the nazis going after lebensraum but expect a land to be given to them
The land WAS given to them. Emir Feisal in 1918 gave them ALL the land west of the Jordan river. The UN reduced the ammount to be given to them when Israel was first set up. Israel expects nothing but freedom and security on the land it owns.

The land WAS given to them. Emir Feisal in 1918 gave them ALL the land west of the Jordan river. The UN reduced the ammount to be given to them when Israel was first set up. Israel expects nothing but freedom and security on the land it owns.


prior to that the Zionist movement which was all about restoring Israel expected, it to be given to them because their god had promised it to them

prior to that the Zionist movement which was all about restoring Israel expected, it to be given to them because their god had promised it to them
So what? Are any of the old Zionist terrorists alive today? Was the land taken by force? Answer to both questions is no. The Israelis got their land through much more legitimate means than America did.

prior to that the Zionist movement which was all about restoring Israel expected, it to be given to them because their god had promised it to them

And they had possesion of it for thousands of years, until the Romans kicked them out.

Israelis are hypocritical bastards , didnt like the nazis pushing them around but dont mind doing it to the arabs in that region. they didnt like the nazis going after lebensraum but expect a land to be given to themMost of the land that Israel exist on nnow was bought from arab landowners, not fought over, before 1948, by the Jewish National Fund, and institution that still exists, but is now dedicated to environmental developement. Much of that land wasn't being cultivated. Some land was captured in the war in 1948, after Israel was attacked.

The Jews that founded Israel weren't "given" a scrap of anything they didn't sweat, or likely, die for.

But back to the topic, I think Israel is supported by the US because it is a natural tie. Both are modern countries with advanced technology industries and universities producing first-rate science. They see the world from more or less the same standpoint. The argument that Israel is democratic, though all too true, doesn't make sense; the US supports plenty of dictatorships.

I think at first it was because of the Holocaust, but then it changed to our own interests.

I think that the bottom line now is that Isreal knows what terrorists can do to a nations security more than just about any other, so they are kind of an "enemy of our enemy"(and of course "An enemy of my enemy is my friend!").

;) The president of Iran got his mandate from The People of Iran ...

The president of Venezuela got his mandate from The People of Venezuela...


Yeah, I could get a mandate from the people of Iran too if I threatened to decapitate their families, or Venezuela if I told the nation that the great satan USA was getting ready to invade.

At least Bush told us what he was gonna do.

How much rent do you pay for that fantasy world you live in? :rolleyes:I pay nothing, My Dad pays premium $ (satellite company) to get the BBC...
;)
... and they completely falsified turnout in their last elections.The president of Iran got his mandate from The People of Iran ...

The president of Venezuela got his mandate from The People of Venezuela...

Bush got his mandate from The NeoCon handpicked Judges.

I think at first it was because of the Holocaust, but then it changed to our own interests.

I think that the bottom line now is that Isreal knows what terrorists can do to a nations security more than just about any other, so they are kind of an "enemy of our enemy"(and of course "An enemy of my enemy is my friend!").

We might add that unlike the residents of most other Middle Eastern countries, they don't regularly hijack airliners, or use suicide bombers.

While they have used techniques such as terrorist bombings in their very early days, they have managed to attain a level of civilization and government that seems unattainable for their Arab neighbors.

At least Bush told us what he was gonna do.Bush told us that he was going to make us one of the most hated countries in the World???
When did he tell us?

Bush told us that he was going to make us one of the most hated countries in the World???
When did he tell us?
He told us he was going to hunt down terrorists ( people who fly planes into buildings, or strap explosives to themselves and kill civilians, people who cut off other peoples heads)wherever in the world they are. He said he would find them and either bring them to justice, or kill them.

If the rest of the world hates us for that, it's their problem, not ours.

BTW, THAT is why I voted for him. Even when the economy is in a recession, it's more than enough for us to live good lives, (I see you can all afford the internet just fine) so I'm more concerned with people trying to kill us.

Evalgelicals pressure groups. It sounds a little insane, but many Christian Churches believe that the Israeli nation must be restored before Christ can return.
Many religious Jews believe that the Messiah will come the very moment Israel is rebuilt (with the Jerusalem Temple and all). So, they do not recognise Israel as "Israel" and some support the Palestinians.
Funny how this turns out.

He told us he was going to hunt down terrorists ( people who fly planes into buildings, or strap explosives to themselves and kill civilians, people who cut off other peoples heads)wherever in the world they are. He said he would find them and either bring them to justice, or kill them.

If the rest of the world hates us for that, it's their problem, not ours.

BTW, THAT is why I voted for him. Even when the economy is in a recession, it's more than enough for us to live good lives, (I see you can all afford the internet just fine) so I'm more concerned with people trying to kill us.

Well, for once someone who agrees with me...

The single biggest reason I can think of is because we've developed this sort of complex or somesuch over the Jews after WW2: everyone felt a little ridiculous after the fact [and rightly so], so a lot of effort was made to patch things up. Since we liberated many of them from the Nazis way back then, we think [consciously or not] that we'd would look pretty stupid if they just got manhandled again.

That, and there are a lot of Jewish people in this country. Just look at New York City!

Any Christians here that feel that way?

Please raise your hand and be counted...

Christianity is a sect of Judaism,
and yes, we feel very close to them.
:D

While the surrounding Arab nations want to wipe them off the face of the map, Israel continues to exist...

And the nation of Israel does not need any human help to survive.
God will take care of their existence, as he has been doing. :)

Our support of Israel is a combination, as has been previously opined.

In my opinion...not democracy.
Let us see.
Israel is a Jewish state, right?
What makes one Jewish? Common paralogism would say "being born of a Jewish woman", pretending that the question is not asked to include the mother as well.
Is it religion? Yes and mmm, no. There is a universe of approaches in Judaism - some coliding into others on a regular basis (Hassidim Jews claim that the Messiah has arrived around 1650, whereas the "Jewish nation" is linked with "expecting the Messiah"). Beyond that, the founding fathers of Israel were mostly secularist and/or agnostic.
Is it nation or race? What about conversion, then? What about Ethiopian Jews etc.?
The law is ambiguous - to obtain citizenship, you have to be born of a Jewish woman and be of Jewish religion (although, no practice of religion is reqired).
Ergo: Arabs in Israel proper are merely tolarated on Israeli soil.
The law did not prevent Israel from colonizing Druze (not at all Jewish) in its territory.
Ergo: preferential law-making.

Plus: The apertheit in dealing with the occupied territories (and present in Israeli society just as well). The West Bank occupation is not only in defiance of interntl. law, it ensures that Israel exercises economical domination over an un-regulated territory (they profit of Arab work-force, which is held captive and paid shit). The kibbutzes are monopoloizing resources (most of the water), just as well as they are militarized and authonomous - and partizans of the politics of hate, almost as much as Hamas and Hizbullah.
Ergo: textbook colonialism.

I'm not Anti-Semite, I'm not even Anti-Zionist. I could, and want to respect Israel as soon as it turns into a democracy.

That, and there are a lot of Jewish people in this country. Just look at New York City!
Yeah, 1.3% as of 2000.

Why does America love Israel?

Three words: matzo ball soup. :p

Let us see.
Israel is a Jewish state, right?
What makes one Jewish? Common paralogism would say "being born of a Jewish woman", pretending that the question is not asked to include the mother as well.
Is it religion? Yes and mmm, no. There is a universe of approaches in Judaism - some coliding into others on a regular basis (Hassidim Jews claim that the Messiah has arrived around 1650, whereas the "Jewish nation" is linked with "expecting the Messiah"). Beyond that, the founding fathers of Israel were mostly secularist and/or agnostic.
Is it nation or race? What about conversion, then? What about Ethiopian Jews etc.?
The law is ambiguous - to obtain citizenship, you have to be born of a Jewish woman and be of Jewish religion (although, no practice of religion is reqired).
Ergo: Arabs in Israel proper are merely tolarated on Israeli soil.
The law did not prevent Israel from colonizing Druze (not at all Jewish) in its territory.
Ergo: preferential law-making.

Plus: The apertheit in dealing with the occupied territories (and present in Israeli society just as well). The West Bank occupation is not only in defiance of interntl. law, it ensures that Israel exercises economical domination over an un-regulated territory (they profit of Arab work-force, which is held captive and paid shit). The kibbutzes are monopoloizing resources (most of the water), just as well as they are militarized and authonomous - and partizans of the politics of hate, almost as much as Hamas and Hizbullah.
Ergo: textbook colonialism.

I'm not Anti-Semite, I'm not even Anti-Zionist. I could, and want to respect Israel as soon as it turns into a democracy.
You do know that Israel has Muslim Arabs in the Knesset, don't you? If Israel isn't democratic how does a Jewish state end up with Arab Muslims who, often vote against Israel's security, on it's parliament?

Yeah, 1.3% as of 2000.

Hmm, ~3,900,000. Never mind, that's about half the population of Israel.

1.3% of about 300,000,000 is still a lot of people. It's quite a lot more than the population of Israel itself.I dpon't think so. 1.3% of 300 million is 3.9 million. israels population is around 6 million. Even if only 75% of these are Jews, there are still more Jews in Israel

Let us see.
Israel is a Jewish state, right?
What makes one Jewish? Common paralogism would say "being born of a Jewish woman", pretending that the question is not asked to include the mother as well.
Is it religion? Yes and mmm, no. There is a universe of approaches in Judaism - some coliding into others on a regular basis (Hassidim Jews claim that the Messiah has arrived around 1650, whereas the "Jewish nation" is linked with "expecting the Messiah"). Beyond that, the founding fathers of Israel were mostly secularist and/or agnostic.
Is it nation or race? What about conversion, then? What about Ethiopian Jews etc.?
The law is ambiguous - to obtain citizenship, you have to be born of a Jewish woman and be of Jewish religion (although, no practice of religion is reqired).
Ergo: Arabs in Israel proper are merely tolarated on Israeli soil.
The law did not prevent Israel from colonizing Druze (not at all Jewish) in its territory.
Ergo: preferential law-making.

Plus: The apertheit in dealing with the occupied territories (and present in Israeli society just as well). The West Bank occupation is not only in defiance of interntl. law, it ensures that Israel exercises economical domination over an un-regulated territory (they profit of Arab work-force, which is held captive and paid shit). The kibbutzes are monopoloizing resources (most of the water), just as well as they are militarized and authonomous - and partizans of the politics of hate, almost as much as Hamas and Hizbullah.
Ergo: textbook colonialism.

I'm not Anti-Semite, I'm not even Anti-Zionist. I could, and want to respect Israel as soon as it turns into a democracy.
Oh. My. God. I am not even touching this. Every single line in this post is not only factually false, but the conclusions don't even follow from these false premises. One giant, monumental non-sequitur of a post.

I dpon't think so. 1.3% of 300 million is 3.9 million. israels population is around 6 million. Even if only 75% of these are Jews, there are still more Jews in Israel

Yeah, I decided to check wikipedia for Israel, and its population is about 6.7 million these days. I thought it was a lot smaller.

You do know that Israel has Muslim Arabs in the Knesset, don't you? If Israel isn't democratic how does a Jewish state end up with Arab Muslims who, often vote against Israel's security, on it's parliament?
That's why you should read all of a post you're replying to. I said that the law IMPLIES THEY ARE TOLARATED (could I be any more clear on this?) - there are parliamentary representations, but they go against the spirit of the law. If Jewish is what you need to be in order to become Israeli, then a category of "real Israelis" is implied. The others can be, and are, only second-class.
But look into the West Bank as well (Arab representation is only for Arabs in Israel). How is that democratic and respectable?

Oh. My. God. I am not even touching this. Every single line in this post is not only factually false, but the conclusions don't even follow from these false premises. One giant, monumental non-sequitur of a post.
Fine. I could point out Shalitt and Raiffeisen. I could point out "Ethipoian jewishness" and other clear facts.

I don't want to get into polemics. I stated my point. Better than dismiss me and point out that I am a fool of some sort, do elaborate. Otherwise, people are gonna assume you're right just because you're from Israel.


EDIT: my previous post was noy a syllogism per se, if you were looking at it from that point.

That's why you should read all of a post you're replying to. I said that the law IMPLIES THEY ARE TOLARATED (could I be any more clear on this?) - there are parliamentary representations, but they go against the spirit of the law. If Jewish is what you need to be in order to become Israeli, then a category of "real Israelis" is implied. The others can be, and are, only second-class.
But look into the West Bank as well (Arab representation is only for Arabs in Israel). How is that democratic and respectable?
Second class citizens don't get to vote or hold national office. Muslim citizens of Israel have the same rights and protections as Jews AFIK. That's first class citizenship.

Let's look at the West Bank. Is that part of Israel? Are you arguing that it belongs to Israel? If so they should just go ahead and kick all the Palestinians off of it and settle the whole thing. Most people don't claim that the West Bank is part of Israel. It's under Palestinian Authority control.

Is it religion? Yes and mmm, no. There is a universe of approaches in Judaism - some coliding into others on a regular basis (Hassidim Jews claim that the Messiah has arrived around 1650, whereas the "Jewish nation" is linked with "expecting the Messiah"). Beyond that, the founding fathers of Israel were mostly secularist and/or agnostic.
Is it nation or race? What about conversion, then? What about Ethiopian Jews etc.?
The law is ambiguous - to obtain citizenship, you have to be born of a Jewish woman and be of Jewish religion (although, no practice of religion is reqired).
Ergo: Arabs in Israel proper are merely tolarated on Israeli soil.
The law did not prevent Israel from colonizing Druze (not at all Jewish) in its territory.
Ergo: preferential law-making.

Plus: The apertheit in dealing with the occupied territories (and present in Israeli society just as well). The West Bank occupation is not only in defiance of interntl. law, it ensures that Israel exercises economical domination over an un-regulated territory (they profit of Arab work-force, which is held captive and paid shit). The kibbutzes are monopoloizing resources (most of the water), just as well as they are militarized and authonomous - and partizans of the politics of hate, almost as much as Hamas and Hizbullah.
Ergo: textbook colonialism.
It's certainly not texbook colonialism now. Though colonizing and capturing the west bank and subduing its arab residents anto cheap labour and ultimate insignificance, most Israelis realized years ago that this is neither possible, or tolerable. Many Israelis have never supported this attitude.

Israelis are very well aware of the demographic war that is taking place, and they know they're on the losing side. Israelis are very well aware that hanginf onto the west bank is, in the long run, not in their interest. Israelis are very well aware that the nature of the "Jewish State" poses conflicts that go to the root of what democracy means. It is the fact that open and discourse exist about these topics that makes Israel's situation unique as an "opressor", and gives me confidance.

The topics you bring up - second-rate citizens, unequal treatment of non-Jews, immigration restrictions based on religion - are in constant discourse in mainstream Israeli media. The first two are not founded in Israeli law and are the result of beurocractic, governmental predjudice. These will be slowly erradicated as ALL Israelis come to terms with their many-faceted identity and learn acceptance. The latter is enshrined in law, and must remain so - that's right, and tough cheese to anyone who cries about it. Israel will always exist as a refuge to worldwide Jewry. There's a balance that Israel toes: democracy versus the preservation of its very purpose: ie, the protection of Jews as a sovereign, independant nation.

Fine. I could point out Shalitt and Raiffeisen. I could point out "Ethipoian jewishness" and other clear facts.

I don't want to get into polemics. I stated my point. Better than dismiss me and point out that I am a fool of some sort, do elaborate. Otherwise, people are gonna assume you're right just because you're from Israel.
I have done so much elaborating here over the past months that this time, I don't think I'll bother. The "people" here know me and know that I can make my case when I want to, so I don't think there will be much assuming going on.

Second class citizens don't get to vote or hold national office. Muslim citizens of Israel have the same rights and protections as Jews AFIK. That's first class citizenship.
Second class citizens do get to vote and hold national office. Look into Hungary during its time as half of Austria-Hungary. Look into British colonies.
De iure, it is second class - not constituent to a single nation, but a selected minority. You may say it cannot be otherwise: but such is Israel, and that is not a democracy.

Let's look at the West Bank. Is that part of Israel? Are you arguing that it belongs to Israel? If so they should just go ahead and kick all the Palestinians off of it and settle the whole thing. Most people don't claim that the West Bank is part of Israel. It's under Palestinian Authority control.
What the hell is it part of? Not Israel - not by right, surely; and because Israel wouldn't assume the responsability of absorbing it - then they would account for their actions.
Israel has been using the PA as a scapegoat: "you stop terrorism with no forces and authority; in exchange for your own civil war, you'll get our never-ending suspicion and the promise that, if we're still considering moving out of the West Bank, there will be a wall - and one that manages to sweep some of your resources to our side; you, because it will be easier for us to keep your citizens in dependancy forever". That's how it looks to me.

It's not like the EU is anti-semitic, yet they don't support Israel in everything they do. America does pretty much.
Oh, there's a good deal of antiSemitism in Europe. Which, ironically is also opposition to Christ, as seen in this rather short proof:

Given:
Anti-Semitism = Hate of Jews
Jesus = Jew

Anti-Semitism = Hate of Jesus

In any case, the reason the US supports Israel so much is coz they're the only democratic ally we have there. Although I pretty much want to withdraw *all* the foregin aid we friggin give to the world right now....

-snip-
I expressed my wish for the same things. I don't even think that Israel even lacks potential for reform, although I doubt the willingness of people like Sharon (whom I don't even consider an incompetent leader) and those to the right of him.

Leonstein, to answer your original question: I think it's Cold War inheritance with prolonged complications.

<snip>.

Ok, stop selectively responding. In the part of my quote where I disagreed with you about second class citizen status I didn't just mention the vote and holding of public office but also equal rights under the law. That part destroys your "second class argument".

Also you say that this so-called second class status precludes democracy. Since democracy is just people voting on their leaders and laws, and we've established that Muslims have the vote, you're just being dense.

Because Israel has a very poweful lobby group in the United States. Many Jews fled to the US before, during and after WW2, plus they control alot of the media.

Personally, I don't care for Israel, I would rather just drop all funding to them and let them go their own way..

-snip-
I'm getting tired of repeating this: the law leads to the conclusion that they are second class.
Citizenship: offered to Jews primarily (as defined by the law); Arabs are tolerated - since they are not Jewish.
As in: I get to be a citizen if I'm born abroad, but only if I'm Jewish or strictly related to today's Arab Israelis. Reason why Arab refugees cannot return (I don't know how, and it is not my problem - Israel should come up with a solution, since it came up with the problem); reason why Siberian-born Jews can become citizens in the space of a minute.
The confessional straitifying is less liberal than what it was in the Ottoman Empire (since that polity was not a "national state").

That is my point. Please don't insult me anymore.

Ok, I'll burn another couple of minutes on a brief reply to one of Argesia's central claims.


Citizenship: offered to Jews primarily (as defined by the law); Arabs are tolerated - since they are not Jewish.
As in: I get to be a citizen if I'm born abroad, but only if I'm Jewish or strictly related to today's Arab Israelis.
1)Law of Return is not the only law through which Israeli citizenship can be gained. Israeli citizenship can be acquired through birth, through residence or through naturalization.

From the website (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2001/8/Acquisition%20of%20Israeli%20Nationality) of Israel's Foreign Ministery:

Adults may acquire Israeli citizenship by naturalization at the discretion of the Minister of the Interior and subject to a number of requirements, such as:

they must have resided in Israel for three years out of five years preceding the day of submission of the application;

they are entitled to reside in Israel permanently and have settled or intended to settle in Israel;

they have renounced their prior nationality, or have proved that they will cease to be foreign nationals upon becoming Israeli citizens.

The Minister of the Interior may exempt an applicant from some of these requirements.

This makes Israel's immigration laws more liberal than the current European ones, where the applicants are required to have resided in the country for five to eight years AND demonstrate knowledge of the state language AND have steady income.

The Law of Return, that affords favorable immigration conditions to Jews, is by no means discriminatory or anti-democratic in any way. Such laws exist in multiple other countries, including European democracies such as Germany (who grants preference in immigration to ethnic Germans, especially from the former Soviet Union), Bulgaria and Greece. Strangely enough, neither of these countries are seen as discriminating, and no one makes a fuss about their immigration laws.

-snip-
Shalitt and Reiffeisen. Immigration is legal under those terms, and THIS IS THE REASON WHY IT IS SO LIBERAL (it is aimed at Jews - not required to know the language, since they don't speak it in Birobijan etc.). The laws SEEM to be extentening the scope, but legal practice has specified for whom exactly (woa! big mistery! Israel encorages Jewish immigration).

Also, don't try to eqate German or Greek equivalents to Israel: main difference is that the State is, in your case, THE PRODUCT OF IMMIGRATION.

I'm getting tired of repeating this: the law leads to the conclusion that they are second class.
Citizenship: offered to Jews primarily (as defined by the law); Arabs are tolerated - since they are not Jewish.
As in: I get to be a citizen if I'm born abroad, but only if I'm Jewish or strictly related to today's Arab Israelis. Reason why Arab refugees cannot return (I don't know how, and it is not my problem - Israel should come up with a solution, since it came up with the problem); reason why Siberian-born Jews can become citizens in the space of a minute.
The confessional straitifying is less liberal than what it was in the Ottoman Empire (since that polity was not a "national state").

That is my point. Please don't insult me anymore.
You get FULL citizenship if you're a muslim arab born in Israel. It's not second class. I'm done talking to you. You're wrong and you're grasping at straws to keep from admiting it.

Iran and Venezuela are more of a Democracy than the US.

Crack is a bad drug .

Shalitt and Reiffeisen. Immigration is legal under those terms, and THIS IS THE REASON WHY IT IS SO LIBERAL (it is aimed at Jews - not required to know the language, since they don't speak it in Birobijan etc.). The laws SEEM to be extentening the scope, but legal practice has specified for whom exactly (woa! big mistery! Israel encorages Jewish immigration).
You're making zero sense. I have just quoted to you conditions on which a NON-JEWISH person can become an Israeli citizen, and it is these conditions that are more liberal than European immigration laws.


Also, don't try to eqate German or Greek equivalents to Israel: main difference is that the State is, in your case, THE PRODUCT OF IMMIGRATION.
What difference does it make? Once the state is there, it's nobody's damn business if it WAS a product of immigration or not. I can think of a bunch of states that are a product of immigration and they pick and choose who they want as immigrants and who they don't.

America likes Isreal for three reasons:

The weapons-manufacturing lobby: Which makes a lot of cash off of selling ammunition and weapons to Isreal (though Isreal has transitioned to mainly on-site production of small-arms and armour)

The Zionist Lobby: Which believes that Isreal is their god (yaweh, whatever)-given homeland and whe blah-blah-blah-blah-blah, standard religious-nutter fodder.

The Uber-Christian Lobby: Which believes that the second-comming will only happen once the jews have reclaimed their homeland, yadda, yadda, yadda, standard religious-nutter fodder.

As for Isreal itself, don't even get me started. The country itself is a giant mistake and the people who let it happen should be given a right smacking for the trouble they've caused.

You're making zero sense. I have just quoted to you conditions on which a NON-JEWISH person can become an Israeli citizen, and it is these conditions that are more liberal than European immigration laws.
You know very well who is allowed to get permanent residency permits. We all know of the scandals.

What difference does it make? Once the state is there, it's nobody's damn business if it WAS a product of immigration or not. I can think of a bunch of states that are a product of immigration and they pick and choose who they want as immigrants and who they don't.
Maybe you didn't get me: you are a national state that is the product of immigration. Your policy is only enforcing the privileged migration, and is aimed at keeping a part of your population within some percentages. Your laws are aimed at Jewish supperiority in this respect.
That may be good (or not that bad), and that may look like democracy - BUT IT IS NOT ONE. You are allowing representation to elements as long as the society is kept in bipolarity, and they don't "flood" Israel (you will not allow West Bank inhabitants married with Israelis to gain residency, you will not allow refugees to return - you may have your reasons, but it is not democratical).

I dpon't think so. 1.3% of 300 million is 3.9 million. israels population is around 6 million. Even if only 75% of these are Jews, there are still more Jews in IsraelI was under the impression it was around 3%

You know very well who is allowed to get permanent residency permits. We all know of the scandals.
Do elaborate. Because I have examples in my very own family of non-Jewish people who acquired Israeli citizenship through naturalization.

AND I could also point out that no less than 100 000 Palestinians from the territories have received Israeli citizenship during the last decade (since the Oslo accords).


Maybe you didn't get me: you are a national state that is the product of immigration. Your policy is only enforcing the privileged migration, and is aimed at keeping a part of your population within some percentages. Your laws are aimed at Jewish supperiority in this respect.
1)It is quite nice of you to use "you" in this context, thus making me an "official" representative of Israel. I'm wondering though, do you offer a salary to go with that?:p

2)The absolute majority of states in the world are nation states. Germany is a nation state, and they have an equivalent of Israel's Law of Return. You are yet to explain why the fact of Israel being a "product of immigration" should warrant a double standard under which what is deemed acceptable for Germany and Greece is not acceptable for Israel.

3)Immigration is not a right, it is a privilege. No person is entitled from birth to emigrate to another state unless that state is willing to host him. Therefore, the very concept of discrimination makes no sense whatsoever when applied to immigration policies of a souvereign state.


That may be good (or not that bad), and that may look like democracy - BUT IT IS NOT ONE. You are allowing representation to elements as long as the society is kept in bipolarity, and they don't "flood" Israel (you will not allow West Bank inhabitants married with Israelis to gain residency, you will not allow refugees to return - you may have your reasons, but it is not democratical).
1)See above about the 100 000 Palestinians.
2)The return of the refugees is a political matter, the resolution of which is conditional on the resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict. It has nothing to do with democracy or non-democracy of Israel, as it is not a matter of internal politics.
3)Maintaining a nation state of its own is every nation's inalienable right under the international law, since without a nation state, there can be no national self-determination. If no other democratic state is facing a situation of possible demographic overthrow of the title nation, it is only because most such nations are either not in the immediate danger of such overthrow, or can afford to opt for partitioning the state along the ethnic lines. However, you may notice that when it becomes a real possibility that a minority may push the dominant nation and its culture aside, measures are ALWAYS taken even by the most "progressive" states. It is in this context that the chain of European bans on Muslim headscarves and burqas should be seen.

I was under the impression it was around 3%
The Jewish Population of the World
(2005)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jewish Population By Region

Top 50 Countries by Population

Country Population (2005E) % Jewish Estimated Jews
Afghanistan 29 928 987 0.000003307 1
Algeria 32,531,853 0.0003% 100
Argentina 39,537,943 1% 395,379
Armenia 2,982,904 0.025% 750
Australia 20,090,437 0.45% 90,406
Austria 8,184,691 0.1% 8,184
Azerbaijan 7,911,974 0.1% 7,911
Belarus 10,300,483 0.7% 72,103
Belgium 10,364,388 0.5% 51,821
Bolivia 8,857,870 0.006% 500
Bosnia and Herzegovina 4,025,476 0.025% 1,006
Botswana 1,640,115 0.006% 100
Brazil 186,112,794 0.051% 95,125
Bulgaria 7,450,349 0.031% 2,300
Canada 32,805,041 1.2% 393,660
Chile 15,980,912 0.131% 20,900
China 1,306,313,812 0.00008% 1,000
Colombia 42,954,279 0.008% 3,436
Congo (Kinshasa) 60,085,004 0.0002% 120
Costa Rica 4,016,173 0.06% 2,409
Croatia 4,495,904 0.04% 1,798
Cuba 11,346,670 0.013% 1,500
Czech Republic 10,241,138 0.03% 3,072
Denmark 5,432,335 0.13% 7,062
Dominican Republic 8,950,034 0.001% 100
Ecuador 13,363,593 0.007% 935
Egypt 77,505,756 0.0001% 100
El Salvador 6,704,932 0.001% 100
Estonia 1,332,893 0.136% 1,818
Ethiopia 73,053,286 0.027% 20,000
Finland 5,223,442 0.021% 1,110
France 60,656,178 1% 606,561
Georgia 4,677,401 0.17% 7,951
Germany 82,431,390 0.13% 107,160
Greece 10,668,354 0.05% 5,334
Guatemala 14,655,189 0.008% 1,172
Hungary 10,006,835 0.6% 60,041
India 1,080,264,388 0.0005% 5,401
Iran 68,017,860 0.03% 20,405
Iraq 26,074,906 0.0004% 100
Ireland 4,015,676 0.03% 1,204
Israel 6,276,883 80% 5,021,506
Italy 58,103,033 0.052% 30,213
Jamaica 2,731,832 0.011% 300
Japan 127,417,244 0.0008% 1,002
Kazakhstan 15,185,844 0.027% 4,100
Kenya 33,829,590 0.001% 400
Korea, South 48,422,644 0.0002% 100
Kyrgyzstan 5,146,281 0.018% 926
Latvia 2,290,237 0.397% 9,092
Lebanon 3,826,018 0.003% 100
Lithuania 3,596,617 0.1% 3,596
Luxembourg 468,571 0.14% 655
Macedonia 2,045,262 0.005% 100
Mexico 106,202,903 0.05% 53,101
Moldova 4,455,421 0.7% 31,187
Morocco 32,725,847 0.016% 5,236
Namibia 2,030,692 0.006% 115
The Netherlands 16,407,491 0.2% 32,814
New Zealand 4,035,461 0.135% 5,447
Nigeria 128,771,988 0.00008% 100
Norway 4,593,041 0.027% 1,240
Panama 3,039,150 0.33% 10,029
Paraguay 6,347,884 0.016% 1,015
Peru 27,925,628 0.01% 2,792
Philippines 87,857,473 0.0001% 100
Poland 38,635,144 0.065% 24,999
Portugal 10,566,212 0.007% 739
Puerto Rico 3,916,632 0.038% 1,488
Romania 22,329,977 0.027% 6,029
Russia 143,420,309 0.5% 717,101
Serbia and Montenegro 10,829,175 0.016% 1,732
Singapore 4,425,720 0.007% 300
Slovakia 5,431,363 0.056% 3,041
Slovenia 2,011,070 0.005% 100
South Africa 44,344,136 0.2% 88,688
Spain 40,341,462 0.12% 48,409
Suriname 438,144 0.046% 200
Sweden 9,001,774 0.2% 18,003
Switzerland 7,489,370 0.2% 14,978
Syria 18,448,752 0.0005% 100
Tajikistan 7,163,506 0.001% 100
Thailand 65,444,371 0.0003% 199
Trinidad and Tobago 1,088,644 0.1% 1,088
Tunisia 10,074,951 0.018% 1,813
Turkey 69,660,559 0.025% 17,415
Turkmenistan 4,952,081 0.01% 495
Ukraine 47,425,336 0.3% 142,276
United Kingdom 60,441,457 0.5% 302,207
United States 295,734,134 2% 5,914,682
Uruguay 3,415,920 0.9% 30,743
Uzbekistan 26,851,195 0.065% 17,453
Venezuela 25,375,281 0.1% 25,375
Yemen 20,727,063 0.001% 200
Zimbabwe 12,746,990 0.006% 764
Total Population 6,430,856,221 0.227% 14,596,017

From http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html

In 2005 they were 2%

Whereas the Islamist states want both Israel and the US destroyed. So it kind of makes sense.........
Well today perhaps, but in 1949?

C'mon, the world has had it out for the Jews since the beginning of time. I'm glad they have a country, so at least they have a place to go now lest the Europeans and other regions decide they want them exterminated again.

C'mon, the world has had it out for the Jews since the beginning of time. I'm glad they have a country, so at least they have a place to go now lest the Europeans and other regions decide they want them exterminated again.
That gets a big :rolleyes: from me.

Just a quick note, The British Monarch also has all the above powers that the King of Jordan has and can not have her veto overruled. The senate is like the house of Lords where the queen at the advice of the prime minister decides who becomes life-long members. etc

My point is that you can still have a democracy even when the head of state has such powers and is unelect.


First of all, the Prime Minister selects new Life Peers for the House of Lords...the Queen has no input whatsoever.

There are also Hereditary Peers and Anglican Church officials, neither of which are selected by any member of government, although the issue of reforming this system is a matter of some debate.

Secondly, you are in serious error if you think that the monarchies of Jordan and England are in any way comparable.

- To my knowledge, the Queen does not sign any laws, and she certainly does not execute them in the manner of a head of the executive branch...that is the job of the Prime Minister

- The Queen has NO authority to veto anything.

- The Queen has no power to approve or deny amendments (hardly possible, since the UK has no written constitution), and she cannot declare war.

- The Queen has NO power to appoint or dismiss executive cabinet ministers. This responsibility is left entirely to the Prime Minister.

- The Queen has no power to appoint or dismiss judges

- The Queen has no power to appoint governors, since to my knowledge the UK has no governors (although I am unfamiliar with the Scottish and Welsh systems since they were given their own regional parliaments)

- The Queen has NO power to dissolve the House of Commons...that power is delegated exclusively to the Prime Minister, except in the case of a vote of no confidence.

You seriously should study up a little bit on a political system before you completely misstate almost every aspect of it's interaction. The Monarchy in the UK is a figurehead institution...nothing more.

[/hijack]

[/hijack]
It's a rather theoretical thing (perhaps like in Jordan), but the Queen does have a few "reserve powers"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_powers
The same goes for pretty much any head of state, and fact of the matter is that the Jordanian king (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_II_of_Jordan) has to my knowledge not impeded the democratic process since he took power.
There is a worry though that he cracks down hard on Islamists and anyone else who dares to criticise his move towards the US.

It's a rather theoretical thing (perhaps like in Jordan), but the Queen does have a few "reserve powers"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_powers

You'll notice the first power for the British monarch is no longer truly applicable, and the rest haven't been used in more than a century.

To my knowledge, the Monarchy no longer has the authority to execute powers three and four. I might be wrong on that, but then again, the study of British law is often an exercise in excruciating futility. :p

The same goes for pretty much any head of state, and fact of the matter is that the Jordanian king (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_II_of_Jordan) has to my knowledge not impeded the democratic process since he took power.
There is a worry though that he cracks down hard on Islamists and anyone else who dares to criticise his move towards the US.

I never once said that the current King of Jordan is an anti-democratic leader...he's really a quite effective and liberal leader (in terms of the middle east anyway).

The institutions and powers of the position of the Jordinian Monarch, however, lend themselves to utter totalitarianism should the wrong man take charge.

I've been wondering for a while, it's always accepted as something of a given...but I don't quite know why:

So this is probably primarily a question for the Americans out there:

Is it...

...lobby groups? This smells a lot like vast Jewish conspiracy, and I don't like the sound of it. Surely there are plenty of Arab lobby groups in the states too.

...religion? I heard that some fundamentalist Christian groups think that Israel is somehow linked with the fate of the world, ie that if Israel was to fall, that would somehow mean Armageddon had come. I don't get it, maybe someone has heard the proper explanation.

...something else I haven't thought of?

And I'll thank in advance not to start turning this into the usual "Israeli terrorists vs Arab terrorists" business. :)

Its a combination of lobby and organized evangelical lunatics who hold religion above their republic.

By the way, Israel from what I know of is the only nation that has a lobby group (American-Israeli affairs) in our Congress which is a MASSIVE problem.

They get politicans from making decisions to benefit America and make them make decisions to benefit Israel first. Bunch of goddamned traitorus politicans.

Well today perhaps, but in 1949?
In 1949 the US did not support Israel, quite the contrary. In fact, it was the joint British-American ultimatum, delivered via American ambassador to Israel that prevented the final defeat of the Egyptian forces. US was also party of the arms embargo on Israel, although Israeli supporters in the US did manage to acquire some weapons by proxy and smuggle them out of the US. Nor did Eisenhauer support Israel during the 1956 Sinai campaign. In fact, there was no significant support for Israel from the US until approximately 1966.

...In fact, there was no significant support for Israel from the US until approximately 1966.
Hmmm...that makes it an even more interesting question!

If it wasn't until this late, then the Holocaust can't really have been that big a part in it, right?

Hmmm...that makes it an even more interesting question!

If it wasn't until this late, then the Holocaust can't really have been that big a part in it, right?
Finally getting it, are you? Now if you work your brain a little, you will also figure out that Jewish lobbies and Evangelicals are also not the reason:rolleyes:

Simply put, it is a mutual benefit thing. Israel is the only US ally in the world who actually earns back a fair amount of what it gets, does not require the presence of US bases, is capable of improving on US technology and has its own unique technologies to offer- and who supports the US even when all other highly praised American allies turn their backs on the "best friend".

Israel is the only US ally in the world who actually earns back a fair amount of what it gets, does not require the presence of US bases, is capable of improving on US technology and has its own unique technologies to offer- and who supports the US even when all other highly praised American allies turn their backs on the "best friend".
But the support is entirely diplomatic up to this point. Israeli forces are not in Iraq, nor did they fly any missions there, correct?

What can Israel offer the United States in return concretely that other states can't or won't (not just today, but also from '66 onwards)

And are you saying that Israel would always follow the US blindly, even if its government does not see a certain action against its best interests?

This may be hard for you to understand but the value is in just being there and capable of assistance should it ever be needed . Also having a country in the area that will will act without getting you involved on the ground yourself , as with the attack on Saddams first nukey house is extremely valuable . Combine that with the fact of the holocaust and all that involves , the cold war along with the democracy set up and the " underdog " status and you have a multitude of reasons for US support of Israel . Do not lose sight of the powerfull cold war influence on the whole world not just Israel .

But the support is entirely diplomatic up to this point. Israeli forces are not in Iraq, nor did they fly any missions there, correct?

What can Israel offer the United States in return concretely that other states can't or won't (not just today, but also from '66 onwards)
The US maintains huge supply storages in Israel, training grounds and they use the Haifa port a lot. The US uses heaps of Israeli technologies, from the armor of Bradleys and F16 avionics to basic things such as advanced bandages (yup, they can be advanced too). Latest news on this one: US marine corps recently ordered the Israeli LIBA armor for 1000 of their EFVs, after successful use of this armor on the infamous Stryker. I also recall reports that IMI has been manufacturing ammunition for US troops in Iraq, although the PC cover story is that Israeli bullets will only be used for training (as if). US has been using Israeli UAVs.

There's also a lot of cooperation beyond the military realms. Israel is one of the world centers of computer tech and software, basically second after the Silicon valley. We're talking about a country with the world's second largest research productivity and the most educated (per capita) population in the world, where technology consistently precedes the market. Some 60% of the world's biotech comes from Israel. Geographically and logistically, Europe would be a more natural trade partner for Israel than the US- but the image of America as Israel's best friend and of the EU as two-faced backstabbers seeking to sell Israel out to appeace the Arabs results in Israelis preferring to work with the US when given a choice.


And are you saying that Israel would always follow the US blindly, even if its government does not see a certain action against its best interests?
More often than not, Israel will not openly oppose any American actions. If there is a conflict of interests, there will be a lot of behind-the-stage persuasion and lobbying- but to date, Israel has never voted against any US initiative in the UN or refused assistance.

Edit- Also, it's worth noting that during the Cold War, the US had access to the latest Russian battle tech captured by Israel from the Arabs, which back then was pretty damn important and saved both American lives and money.

Combine that with the fact of the holocaust and all that involves . holyWomble just said "the holocaust is not it"...

Why do you keep bringing the holycaust? its like you have an obsessive fixation...

Why do you keep bringing the holycaust? its like you have an obsessive fixation...

Because it does enter into it... the west saw what happened and was horrified and embarrassed that it did happen... so the U.S. adopted a "never again" policy.

... so the U.S. adopted a "never again" policy.So did Europe...but most of Europe has no palestinean blood on their hands.

Almost certainly military necessity; they need a safety zone in the middle east. Also pride; they nowon created Israel and they don't want it to fail.

In 1949 the US did not support Israel, quite the contrary. In fact, it was the joint British-American ultimatum, delivered via American ambassador to Israel that prevented the final defeat of the Egyptian forces. US was also party of the arms embargo on Israel, although Israeli supporters in the US did manage to acquire some weapons by proxy and smuggle them out of the US. Nor did Eisenhauer support Israel during the 1956 Sinai campaign. In fact, there was no significant support for Israel from the US until approximately 1966.
Well at least we came to our senses eventually. Better late than never, right?

Finally getting it, are you? Now if you work your brain a little, you will also figure out that Jewish lobbies and Evangelicals are also not the reason:rolleyes:

Simply put, it is a mutual benefit thing. Israel is the only US ally in the world who actually earns back a fair amount of what it gets, does not require the presence of US bases, is capable of improving on US technology and has its own unique technologies to offer- and who supports the US even when all other highly praised American allies turn their backs on the "best friend".
Yep. Thanks for that. Plus there are other similarities between us that allow for friendship. We're both pretty democratic, both nations are pretty devoutly religious (although they're different religions), both nations have a free press, both put a strong emphasis on defense and security, both fiercely patriotic. We're alot alike in some ways.

But the support is entirely diplomatic up to this point. Israeli forces are not in Iraq, nor did they fly any missions there, correct?

What can Israel offer the United States in return concretely that other states can't or won't (not just today, but also from '66 onwards)

And are you saying that Israel would always follow the US blindly, even if its government does not see a certain action against its best interests?
Israel offers the US a few things that no other nation in that region can or will at this time. Cooperation on high-tech research and development for civilian and military purposes, reliable inteligence, and a strong consumer market for some of our products.

Most nations in the region lag far behind Israel in terms of developing new technology. The ratio of "Islamic Studies" degrees to Science or Engineering degrees earned in the Arab world is appalingly high. That's a big reason why they don't have strong high-tech sectors and patent very few new inventions each year. Many don't trust or even like the US, so they can't be relied upon to give us complete and reliable intelligence. Also the rich/poor divide in many Arab nations is huge. Their common man can't afford too many American products.

So did Europe...but most of Europe has no palestinean blood on their hands.
Yeah, but by supporting the Palestinians they still have Jewish blood on their hands.

Havent we blamed enough on the jews? But no, this has to be a conspiracy. What consirpacy? Its very simply really, the middle east is full of countries that, do not like it, to say lightly. America needs a solid ally in the middle east, and Israel has provided them with one. Simple as pie.

Yep. Thanks for that. Plus there are other similarities between us that allow for friendship. We're both pretty democratic, both nations are pretty devoutly religious (although they're different religions), both nations have a free press, both put a strong emphasis on defense and security, both fiercely patriotic. We're alot alike in some ways.
In a way, the US and Israel are the last Western states where the national idea is still going strong, while Europe slowly but surely mutates into amorphous entities without any ideological spine.

In a way, the US and Israel are the last Western states where the national idea is still going strong, while Europe slowly but surely mutates into amorphous entities without any ideological spine.
What do you mean?