NationStates Jolt Archive

First things first:
Fascism is different from National Socialism (although Mussolini more or less coined the latter, but that's a different story)

Fascism is not about race or anything like that. Principally, it's about an appeal to the irrational side of the human being through Patriotism, Nostalgia, Religion and the like.

But anyways, fascism (IMHO) is mostly distinguished by its pragmatic approach to policies. It's neither left nor right, it borrows whatever works.
In order to have the whole society work as an organic thing, there is one brain, the top leadership, and a nerve system, the bureaucracy. The bureaucrats don't get to make any decisions though, they are only messengers (as opposed to Stalinism).
In Italy they never really got of the ground, but at least in theory that's what Fascism is about.

So today China has:
- a top-down leadership
- a very strong sense of the "collective good"
- a strong sense of nationality and patriotism
- it's very pragmatic as far as economics is concerned: it borrows whatever works from wherever
- it's got a strong military and police power which "forces" capitalists and workers to cooperate where necessary in order to achieve a greater result for the whole

So would that make modern China fascist? And what would be the implications of that for the future?

They're pretty bad at times; but they're no more fascist than the United States.

They're pretty bad at times; but they're no more fascist than the United States.
Agreed.

They're pretty bad at times; but they're no more fascist than the United States.

Yeah, totally. I mean, have you SEEN at the end of all those protests where the GOP machine-gun squads come out and mow everyone down?

"So today China has:
- a top-down leadership
- a very strong sense of the "collective good"
- a strong sense of nationality and patriotism
- it's very pragmatic as far as economics is concerned: it borrows whatever works from wherever
- it's got a strong military and police power which "forces" capitalists and workers to cooperate where necessary in order to achieve a greater result for the whole"

So today America has:
-a top-down leadership
-a very strong sense of "corporations = win"
-a strong sense of nationality and patriotism
-it's got a strong military and police power which "forces" communists and workers to cooperate where necessary in order to achieve "great justice"

I believe we can class both as Fascism.
http://www.bushflash.com/14.html <-- interesting.

"So today China has:
- a top-down leadership
- a very strong sense of the "collective good"
- a strong sense of nationality and patriotism
- it's very pragmatic as far as economics is concerned: it borrows whatever works from wherever
- it's got a strong military and police power which "forces" capitalists and workers to cooperate where necessary in order to achieve a greater result for the whole"

So today America has:
-a top-down leadership
-a very strong sense of "corporations = win"
-a strong sense of nationality and patriotism
-it's got a strong military and police power which "forces" communists and workers to cooperate where necessary in order to achieve "great justice"

I believe we can class both as Fascism.

A) Someone needs to go back to High School and re-read Mussolinni's The Doctrine of Fascism

B) America's leadership is elected by the people( and please spare me the "TEH DIEBOLD IS TEH EVIL!!!!!!11!!1!). Corporations=win because it's capitalists. When did being proud of where you live become a bad thing? And finally the US military is actually prohibited by law from operating in US territory unless with the permission of the ELECTED state governor, and Communists protest out in the open all the time.

A) Someone needs to go back to Hish School and re-read Mussolinni's The Doctrine of Fascism
Just because Mussolini says that it's Fascism, doesn't mean that there are no other forms of Fascism. Marxism? Trotskyism? Stalinism? Yup, they are exactly the same:rolleyes:

B) America's leadership is elected by the people( and please spare me the "TEH DIEBOLD IS TEH EVIL!!!!!!11!!1!). Corporations=win because it's capitalists. When did being proud of where you live become a bad thing? And finally the US military is actually prohibited by law from operating in US territory unless with the permission of the ELECTED state governor, and Communists protest out in the open all the time.

I did not say being proud of where you live is a bad thing. In fact, I did not say ANY of them are bad things (except the corporate part, i don't like that)There is a difference about being ALLOWED to protest in the open and being OPPRESSED if you do.

A) Someone needs to go back to Hish School and re-read Mussolinni's The Doctrine of Fascism
Just because Mussolini says that it's Fascism, doesn't mean that there are no other forms of Fascism. Marxism? Trotskyism? Stalinism? Yup, they are exactly the same:rolleyes:

B) America's leadership is elected by the people( and please spare me the "TEH DIEBOLD IS TEH EVIL!!!!!!11!!1!). Corporations=win because it's capitalists. When did being proud of where you live become a bad thing? And finally the US military is actually prohibited by law from operating in US territory unless with the permission of the ELECTED state governor, and Communists protest out in the open all the time.

I did not say being proud of where you live is a bad thing. In fact, I did not say ANY of them are bad things (except the corporate part, i don't like that)There is a difference about being ALLOWED to protest in the open and being OPPRESSED if you do.

Seeing as how Benito Mussolini is the CREATOR of fascism, I don't know, he seems like a good authority to go on.

And how the hell are protesters being oppressed?

Someone needs to go back to High School and re-read Mussolinni's The Doctrine of Fascism
I think I might have been at the wrong high school...

Just because Mussolini says that it's Fascism, doesn't mean that there are no other forms of Fascism. Marxism? Trotskyism? Stalinism? Yup, they are exactly the same:rolleyes:
Fascism is its own very distinct ideology though, and at least in theory very different from those quasi-communist ideologies you mention.

I don't think the US is fascist quite yet. It's getting bad, no doubt, but for the US to qualify as fascist takes a lot more than what we already have.

Well, technically speaking, Mussolini, the architech of fascism, stated that it is the merging of state and corporate power.

Or rule by corporations.

If you accept this definition, then the United States is far more fascist than China, although China is getting closer. China is a dictatorship, yes, but not all dictatorships are fascist.

Well, technically speaking, Mussolini, the architech of fascism, stated that it is the merging of state and corporate power.

Or rule by corporations.

If you accept this definition, then the United States is far more fascist than China, although China is getting closer. China is a dictatorship, yes, but not all dictatorships are fascist.
But you need to define "corporation" properly then. It's not the same as what we call corporation today.
The idea was that everyone worked for the whole - ie a big worker's corporation works together with a big capitalist corporation, and if they can't come together properly, the state makes them by force.

And the US lacks a number of other "fascist" indicators, or at least doesn't have them as strongly as China.

But it's nice that so many people agree that the US is a fascist state although I never said such a thing...:D

But you need to define "corporation" properly then. It's not the same as what we call corporation today.
The idea was that everyone worked for the whole - ie a big worker's corporation works together with a big capitalist corporation, and if they can't come together properly, the state makes them by force.

And the US lacks a number of other "fascist" indicators, or at least doesn't have them as strongly as China.

But it's nice that so many people agree that the US is a fascist state although I never said such a thing...:D

No, a "big worker's corporation" would have been referred to as a "union," "labor union," or possibly in the case of agriculture, a "cooperative."

And the state making labor+capital agree by force=capital wins, or in the case of communism, nobody wins.

achieve "great justice"
Move, Zig - for great justice!

"So today China has:
- a top-down leadership
- a very strong sense of the "collective good"
- a strong sense of nationality and patriotism
- it's very pragmatic as far as economics is concerned: it borrows whatever works from wherever
- it's got a strong military and police power which "forces" capitalists and workers to cooperate where necessary in order to achieve a greater result for the whole"

So today America has:
-a top-down leadership
-a very strong sense of "corporations = win"
-a strong sense of nationality and patriotism
-it's got a strong military and police power which "forces" communists and workers to cooperate where necessary in order to achieve "great justice"

I believe we can class both as Fascism.
http://www.bushflash.com/14.html <-- interesting.
china=good=fascist
u.s.=bad=anarchy
u.s. has no sence of the good of the whole. there it's "me first!". corporations does indicate fascism, although, it's an obvious and the nearly only fault of fascism.
EDIT: misspelled china...

I actually think of the current China as just a new dynasty lacking an Emperor. If you look at the history of China, top-down leadership (bureaucracy), the “collective good,” pride in simply being Chinese (or whatever the dominant group called themselves at the time) and a strong police force and military have been part of Chinese government for literally thousands of years, when it was unified anyway.

China is more remiscent of Stalin-era Soviet socialism (communism in one nation) than fascism per se, and I must say they probably have a much better system than even Stalin did. They still suffer heavily from weaknesses not limited to a lack of emphasis on human development, overambition for wealth and power, inability to sufficiently foster cooperation with their police and military with the general, the old soviet problems of corruption and black market trade, and a near religious devotion to communist ideologies, many of them anti-western and somewhat anti-market, by some of their leaders still in power (but much less so than 40 years ago.)

Depending on how you wish to define fascism, China may fit your bill, but socially China tends to be more liberal than fascist nations did, they also tend to be a bit more free-market oriented than fascist nations (China has a major private sector now.) They also have a strong focus on international relations, previous fascist models failed to sufficiently build diplomatic ties because many of them believed they could take on their region or even the world single-handedly. Of course, I have not seen an example of Stalin-era or modern fascism I would consider overly important.

I would prefer to class China as communist than fascist though, although by the looks of it they are repeating the errors of Gorbachev in terms of liberalization and succumbing to inefficiency and corruption, so their socialist system may not last very long until something more fully focused on the free market comes in (a lot of China's industry is already private and they have greatly liberalized trade.) I think it will most likely do China and the world at large a great deal of good if it does.

First things first:
Fascism is different from National Socialism (although Mussolini more or less coined the latter, but that's a different story)

Fascism is not about race or anything like that. Principally, it's about an appeal to the irrational side of the human being through Patriotism, Nostalgia, Religion and the like.

But anyways, fascism (IMHO) is mostly distinguished by its pragmatic approach to policies. It's neither left nor right, it borrows whatever works.
In order to have the whole society work as an organic thing, there is one brain, the top leadership, and a nerve system, the bureaucracy. The bureaucrats don't get to make any decisions though, they are only messengers (as opposed to Stalinism).
In Italy they never really got of the ground, but at least in theory that's what Fascism is about.

So today China has:
- a top-down leadership
- a very strong sense of the "collective good"
- a strong sense of nationality and patriotism
- it's very pragmatic as far as economics is concerned: it borrows whatever works from wherever
- it's got a strong military and police power which "forces" capitalists and workers to cooperate where necessary in order to achieve a greater result for the whole

So would that make modern China fascist? And what would be the implications of that for the future?

Generally, you're right.... Fascism is neither left nor right [neither is National Socialism, to be honest]... The concepts are inverse to "Libertarian" ideas of "freedom"; effectively "wing-tip" statism... As you move "up" and "down" on the Statist scale, differentiations in "left" and "right" become more and more meaningless....

'fascism is neither left or right

um... lol?

um... lol?
Can you read?

Can you read?
Why read when you can make ignorant statements?

Can you read?
I'd like to think so. Since when is fascism not extreme right wing, and staunchly anti-communist?

In order to have the whole society work as an organic thing, there is one brain, the top leadership, and a nerve system, the bureaucracy. The bureaucrats don't get to make any decisions though, they are only messengers (as opposed to Stalinism).
China fails this part though, the bureaucrats are usually the ones in charge. To say it's entrenched would be a major understatement.

I'd like to think so. Since when is fascism not extreme right wing, and staunchly anti-communist? Fascism can, and cannot be right-wing. Fascism is built on the concept of the state having absolute power. That can work for either Stalin or Hitler.