NationStates Jolt Archive

I lived in a community for three years that has a ridiculously huge problem with FAS. There is education available about it, information, help, community programs, all sorts of resources, but it continues to be a plague. These kids are BORN BRAIN DAMAGED. Fetal Alchol Spectrum Disorder leaves children with holes in their brains...literally. In moderate to severe cases, children will always be unable to understand consequences, will have impaired short term memories, difficulty forming attachments, and will lag emotionally, intellectually and socially behind other children who do not suffer from FASD.

I saw hugely pregnant women getting so drunk they passed out.

I saw the babies, born seriously underweight, because after a certain amount of consumption, they can no longer develop in the womb...children who were not premature, but weighed 3 pounds.

I saw FASD in the shape of the eyes and nose of perhaps 90% of my students, children who had been damaged for life by their parents.

It outrages me...it horrifies me and it makes me weep in frustration. FUCK UP YOUR OWN LIFE!!! These kids don't have a chance in hell!

So if education, community support, programs, refusing to serve pregnant women alcohol...if all that is insufficient, what can we do? I am loathe to ask the government to step in...but this is costing society in so many ways. What can we do, damn it?

You have to address the reason why so many people (not just women) drink in the community.

They have this problem in the poorer areas of Washington, D.C.

Plenty of social programs, etc.

But, in the same area, there is a bar or liquor store every 50 yards. I'm not joking.

Seriously, this is a sad and disgraceful problem. I dont know a serious solution that hasnt already been tried. Whe nthey learn the lesson, its already too late.


true to form,though, I'd like to propose a program-Similar to the designated driver program.
You volunteer not to let drinking friends drive-you stay sober to drive them home.

I'll volunteer to be the "designated banger". I'll stay sober and wear a condom and bang these horny, senseless drunks. They'll be satisfied and NOT pregnant.

So if education, community support, programs, refusing to serve pregnant women alcohol...if all that is insufficient, what can we do? I am loathe to ask the government to step in...but this is costing society in so many ways. What can we do, damn it?

Charge the women w/ child abuse. This should go for any illegal drug as well.

Charge the women w/ child abuse. This should go for any illegal drug as well.
It's a touchy subject...but I have a cousin who is pregnant with her third child, and I'm ready to lock her up myself...the first child is severly FASD, the second was addicted to crack from birth, and even though my cousin swears she's clean...she went AWOL last weekend and I damn well know she's using again. Like I said...fuck up your own life...or get fixed so you can't have any more 'accidents' to ruin for life.

It's a touchy subject...but I have a cousin who is pregnant with her third child, and I'm ready to lock her up myself...the first child is severly FASD, the second was addicted to crack from birth, and even though my cousin swears she's clean...she went AWOL last weekend and I damn well know she's using again. Like I said...fuck up your own life...or get fixed so you can't have any more 'accidents' to ruin for life.

IMO, your cousin should be jailed and have her kids taken away.

Hmm, I would recommend you re-evaluate your position on whom to support. I understand that many people seem to believe that the government should not regulate the behaviour of citizens in their personal lives but I am sure you will agree with me that in this regard, liberalization of alcohol law might require revision, especially seeing as this nation currently tends to act in interests of fetal life anyway. Also, these people are obviously not taking advantage of the community programs designed to prevent these cases. This in part means that the culture is not focused towards intellectual judgement of when to consume alcohol and also not focused towards taking advantage of the resources you have mentioned, obviously.

I have to ask something, have you noticed that this tends to occur among lower classes, and particularly minorities, or is this a pretty common problem for everyone of all backgrounds and incomes? This is actually important to note in order to propose means towards finding a solution.

Also, seeing as you are involved inside a mandatory education system you may as well go ahead and ask the school to bring in parents and students to assemblies and events or just push an anti-FASD message by asking administration to send out mailings and mention it at things like sports events. If this really is a major problem I am sure you will find people to support you in such an effort.

Passive activism through propaganda and "spread the word" style campaigns should not be underestimated.

You have to address the reason why so many people (not just women) drink in the community.

They have this problem in the poorer areas of Washington, D.C.

Plenty of social programs, etc.

But, in the same area, there is a bar or liquor store every 50 yards. I'm not joking.
Well the drinking up North is actually worse in the 'dry' communities...more binge drinking when they can get alcohol smuggled in.

The drinking up there is a lot like what I saw on the Reserves in Alberta...they start young (around 9) because the older kids are doing it, and it is never just social drinking, it's always binge drinking. The adults do it, and the kids emulate them. Add in all the physical, sexual and emotional abuse, the self-loathing and lack of opportunity, the absence of anything else to do in your spare time, and you have a recipie for a community plagued with FASD. So far, nothing I've seen has stopped it.

When Innu elders declared a state of emergency in their community and plastered pictures of kids huffing gas all over the national media, much outcry was made, and solutions proposed. But it never panned out. Aboriginal communities in particular (in Canada) are at risk of this kind of substance abuse, and it has (in my opinion) less to do with any sort of 'genetic weakeness' or 'cultural weakness' than the poverty we live in. And when I say poverty, I don't just mean money...I mean poverty of opportunity (within the community), the poverty of education (our schools are, let's face it, terrible), and the poverty of positive pursuits for our children.

IMO, your cousin should be jailed and have her kids taken away.
Sometimes I agree. And sometimes I just can't sanction such interference. I can't reconcile this with my beliefs.

You have to cure the miserable situation that makes people think that drinking to excess is an escape.

If things weren't so miserable, I'm sure fewer women would drink. And more women would heed the advice not to drink during pregnancy.

In my experience, the only way to stop someone from abusing alcohol or drugs is to stop them, period.

Of course, that would kill the unborn as well, but there really is no other practical solution.

Or we could test all mothers, and forcibly restrain the ones who are abusing alcohol and drugs. Strap them down until the baby is born.

Only the most radical and drastic measures, all illegal, will work.

You can't stop human nature.

I saw a pregnant woman who had evidently smoked crack with her husband, and was saying that her body had become "half metal". Her husband smoked it with her!!! In their house!

Miserable crackheads with a house!

The only thing I can think to do is off them both, or strap her down and feed her intravenously until the baby is born.

What can anyone do???

Also, seeing as you are involved inside a mandatory education system you may as well go ahead and ask the school to bring in parents and students to assemblies and events or just push an anti-FASD message by asking administration to send out mailings and mention it at things like sports events. If this really is a major problem I am sure you will find people to support you in such an effort.

Passive activism through propaganda and "spread the word" style campaigns should not be underestimated.
The word IS out there. It just isn't sinking in. Everyone knows about FASD and how to avoid it. But they don't care...or can't control themselves enough to do it. It's so prevalent, it's acceptable, even though intellectually, it is NOT acceptable. I can't explain it...in the case I am speaking of, so much money has been put into dealing with this problem, and in educating people (not always the case in many communities, where ignorance really is an excuse), but it is making little impact. Do these communities need to start being more invasive? Shaming people into not drinking? Intevening more? I don't know.

You have to cure the miserable situation that makes people think that drinking to excess is an escape.

If things weren't so miserable, I'm sure fewer women would drink. And more women would heed the advice not to drink during pregnancy.
Ay...but now it's so chicken and egg...so many people are fucked up and can't function in a normal social way (if they have FASD, the may be physically unable to socialise properly), that you'd pretty much have to kill everyone and start over with a clean slate to just go ahead and 'cure the miserable situation'. The kind of money that would be needed to provide children with FASD enough support to allow them to be even slightly successful in life is absolutely prohibitive. I'm talking a full time aid, per kid, for at least 18 years. Not going to happen. And this is a community with money...big money...third graders bringing fifty dollar bills to the school tuck shop. Throwing money at them isn't working.

I should make a list of specific types of human beings that should be sterilized for their own good and the good of society.

Sinuhue, I think part of the problem is that the mothers of FASD children are often FASD sufferers. This is one of those dangerous cycles for, as you mentioned, people with FASD have trouble forming bonding with others and don't understand consequences. Which makes them more likely to become dependent on alcohol or other drugs.

I recall a few years ago, there was a woman addicted to glue who was pregnant with her third child. I don't remember which province it was, but they (social services?) attempted through the courts to find a way to restrain her from sniffing glue, as it would harm the fetus (and she already had given birth to two children with birth defects as a result of the glue-sniffing). Social services lost; I believe the court stated that the woman had the right to do as she wished with her own body, and that finding otherwise would lead to limiting the right of Canadian women to have abortions.

It's a tricky one - a balancing of society's rights and individual rights. I'm not sure there is a right answer. When I look at issues like this, I almost believe that Canada's former sterilization program (from the 60's and 70's) for people with certain disabilities is on the right track - if you are obviously unable to care for a child, and society will have to take up the slack of raising, educating, and possibly rehabilitating your child, perhaps you should be prevented from having a child in the first place. Mandatory birth control, in other words. (I think sterilization goes too far.)

But then of course, comes the argument that the ability to have a child is a right. That we shouldn't meddle with any path to eugenics. The question of where to draw the line and how to determine who would qualify to be a parent.

Some would say that mandatory abortion of a fetus likely to be harmed by alcohol, drug abuse, or physical defect is the way to go. But the pro-life crowd would be incensed by that, as would be advocates for persons with disabilities.

Edit: And I speak as someone who has seen FASD through a couple of generations. My parents had a foster child in the 80's who was FASD. Now they have adopted her FASD daughter because the mother was unable to care for her. And she's had a second child, also with FASD that has been adopted by the second child's father's grandmother. Both adoptive families are struggling to raise the children as loving, responsible people. And I know my mom tastes failure every day as Tyler resists my parent's best efforts. I tell you, it's a good thing mom believes in miracles, or she would have lost hope by now.

Start sterilizing them after the first FASD kid.

I recall a few years ago, there was a woman addicted to glue who was pregnant with her third child. I don't remember which province it was, but they (social services?) attempted through the courts to find a way to restrain her from sniffing glue, as it would harm the fetus (and she already had given birth to two children with birth defects as a result of the glue-sniffing). Social services lost; I believe the court stated that the woman had the right to do as she wished with her own body, and that finding otherwise would lead to limiting the right of Canadian women to have abortions.


I remember this case, and the abortion issue is exactly the can of worms I wouldn't want opened with a court-mandated solution.

I wish my people, in particular, would take a more traditional role in this. We are a communal people, with different ideas about personal boundaries than most Canadians. We should have little problem creating a healing circle for pregnant women, their partner(s) and family. The community as a whole needs to take a hand in education, supporting, and if all else fails, forcing the woman to not abuse that child, either in the womb, or after. And it's going to take the men too...they need to stop drinking around a woman who has substance abuse issues. They need to support the mothers of their children. And if they refuse...they should be removed from the picture altogher, and allow the community to step in.

But out traditions, and our ways have been so upset and interfered with, I think we are afraid to do this sort of thing.

I should make a list of specific types of human beings that should be sterilized for their own good and the good of society.
Sterilization is not going to solve the problem. Not really...and it does not allow for the fact that human beings can change. Women who were terrible mothers, who abandoned their own children for THEIR mothers to raise...have in turn straightened their lives and are raising their grandchildren...or their neices and nephews...

As well, simply taking the children away from their families is not going to 'fix' things. It doesn't cure that child of FASD, and having them raised by the state is only going to make their difficulty with attachment even worse.

Sterilization is not going to solve the problem. Not really...and it does not allow for the fact that human beings can change. Women who were terrible mothers, who abandoned their own children for THEIR mothers to raise...have in turn straightened their lives and are raising their grandchildren...or their neices and nephews...

As well, simply taking the children away from their families is not going to 'fix' things. It doesn't cure that child of FASD, and having them raised by the state is only going to make their difficulty with attachment even worse.

Well, I guess I could argue that children raised by the state are often raised by families who aren't personally dealing with drug and alcohol issues and often work very hard to help that child have a better life. But kids with FASD aren't always helped by this. I know my parents have had a couple of FASD children in their lives. They weren't able to help the first one much - as an adult she's in and out of jail, on and off of drugs and alcohol, and has had 2 FASD children of her own. But we have hopes for her daughters, one of whom has been adopted by my parents and lived with them since she was 2. She has supervised contact with her mom, and regular visits with her younger sister (even though she lives hundreds of miles away).

But we don't have the same cultural issues you do - the FASD children in this case are white, being raised by white families. I can see that removing children from their native culture could make things worse for them. And not just them, but the entire community losing the children.

There are no easy answers, and I'm not sure that there are even any ethically good answers.

I'm not looking for easy answers...just any answers...any solutions that could actually work in a free and open society.:(

The real question is, what can be done to stop FASS?

I'm not looking for easy answers...just any answers...any solutions that could actually work in a free and open society.:(

Did you ever see the video the Reserve in BC called Alkalai Lake? It told the story how they went from about 90+ alcoholism to very little abuse. It was a beatiful story. I don't know if were able to maintain the success or not. But there was a spiritual awakening in the community. It seems to me that all of the laws and penalities in the world often do little good unless the community changes its attitude to use and abuse of alcohol and other drugs.

Sterilization is not going to solve the problem. Not really...and it does not allow for the fact that human beings can change. Women who were terrible mothers, who abandoned their own children for THEIR mothers to raise...have in turn straightened their lives and are raising their grandchildren...or their neices and nephews...
Not everyone bad mother should be sterilized, but there are alot of people who are excellent candidates. People unwilling to changes their lifestyles no matter the consequences.

O SON OF SPIRIT!
I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

O SON OF SPIRIT!
I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)You know, your posts are turning into borderline spam. It seems that you never have anything to say for yourself.

I've never been exposed to FASD people in close quarters, but I can say that I would oppose any sterilization program straight-up. I think the communities themselves are the problem. Closed reservations just aren't places that inspire a serious turnaround in addictive behaviours. Get people out of their niche, into a new place, and change is easier. That's just my feeling...I don't really have the tools to respond in detail.

In moderate to severe cases, children will always be unable to understand consequences, will have impaired short term memories, difficulty forming attachments, and will lag emotionally, intellectually and socially behind other children

I hear this condition is sometimes mis-diagnosed as "being a teenager!"

Ha ha, ha ha ha!

Okay, no, seriously. Women need to be more responsible. Pregnant women especially. Yes, men do too, but this is a case where the woman has a deeper responsibility not to be so careless with themselves.

Responsibility is a dying habit in this day and age though. It's trendy to be liberated and hip. It's uncool to be responsible for your well-being or, even worse, that of a child. This is a problem with society when it incourages or condones irresponsibility in general.

The solution? Eh. Don't hold your breath...

Start sterilizing them after the first FASD kid.


I agree. Unfortunately, it will do little to help the primary victim child, but will assure no subsequent victims from the same brood sow.
Its child abuse, pure and simple. I dont agree to any alcohol during pregnancy, regardless of what anyone says-its ok, its good, blah, blah,blah. I think of what happens when one molecule of ingested alcohol does when it meets one new brain cell in an unborn fetus.

Maybe I'm lucky- my wife isnt a smoker and she never touched a drop of alcohol the entire pregnancy. This isnt a major accomplishment in our eyes-its the bare minimum. During each of three pregnancies, she kept to a healthy diet and exercised regularly. Prenatal vitamins started before she was pregnant. And we were blessed with three healthy, intelligent and good looking children that are all happy with themselves and flourishing.
Its possible they would be the same if we werent health conscious and responsible too. But you make your own luck in this world-why not give your kids every possible chance at being happy and healthy? Its your freaking responsibility.

Or dont have kids and do whatever the hell you like.

So if education, community support, programs, refusing to serve pregnant women alcohol...if all that is insufficient, what can we do? I am loathe to ask the government to step in...but this is costing society in so many ways. What can we do, damn it?

Make it illegal to serve a pregnant woman alcohol. Would that be considered sexist, though? Meh.

I think the best bet is education. Show future mothers the effects of FASD. It will never stop everyone, but at the very least it can make people think a little.

Okay, no, seriously. Women need to be more responsible. Pregnant women especially. Yes, men do too, but this is a case where the woman has a deeper responsibility not to be so careless with themselves.

Responsibility is a dying habit in this day and age though. It's trendy to be liberated and hip. It's uncool to be responsible for your well-being or, even worse, that of a child. This is a problem with society when it incourages or condones irresponsibility in general.

The solution? Eh. Don't hold your breath...

Query: So what do you do about FASD that travels from generation to generation? We can say "Women need to be more responsible" until we're blue in the face, but as people with FASD are unable to understand consequences as a result of their condition, it's pretty hard to imagine them taking responsibility. So we end up with more FASD kids, who will be prone to creating more FASD kids of their own. This point has nothing to do with whether responsibility is or is not cool.

How do we break that cycle?

what can be done besides aggressive anti-addiction policies?

these mothers dont drink because they want to hurt their babies, they are alcoholics. the same as crack babies are born to crack addicts and the children of meth addicted "cookers" are exposed to harmful fumes from the process of making meth.

we have to have rehab spaces available for pregnant women and the parents of small children. we have to have people willing to confront a woman who is drinking or using drugs while pregnant. we have to educate those who are selling to pregnant women and those who party with them.

and it needs to be recognized as child abuse and the babies removed from her care as soon as they are born. a woman who abuses alcohol while pregnant isnt likely to suddenly become a caring mother. she is going to be a mother who is drunk every day while trying to care for a newborn.

You know, your posts are turning into borderline spam. It seems that you never have anything to say for yourself.

I've never been exposed to FASD people in close quarters, but I can say that I would oppose any sterilization program straight-up. I think the communities themselves are the problem. Closed reservations just aren't places that inspire a serious turnaround in addictive behaviours. Get people out of their niche, into a new place, and change is easier. That's just my feeling...I don't really have the tools to respond in detail.

My goodness spam you say. That is hitting below the belt. The quote from Baha'u'llah does give a very clear answer to the problem as described by the original poster. The symptom is alcoholism which can be considered a disease of the spirit, a disfunction of the individual, community and society. The answer is the spirtualization of the planet one soul at a time.

Yeah, spam. I have yet to see a serious post by you that fails to forward your particular religious agenda, no matter what the topic at hand is.

Yeah, spam. I have yet to see a serious post by you that fails to forward your particular religious agenda, no matter what the topic at hand is.

My religion is not seperate from the rest of my life. And I have posted many times without bringing up my religion, most often when someone was asking for advise with personal problems.

Make it illegal to serve a pregnant woman alcohol. Would that be considered sexist, though? Meh.
Like it is illegal to serve underage children alcohol? I rest my case.

Yeah, spam. I have yet to see a serious post by you that fails to forward your particular religious agenda, no matter what the topic at hand is.
There'd be nothing wrong with that if s/he'd just move on to better threads. I want to see what the Baha'u'llah has to say about such urgent topics as "Baseball" and "Harriet Myers".

And there is really very little that you can do to prevent FASD. You could make it illegal for pregnant women to drink, but then you have enforcement troubles and Women's Rights groups at your throat, and complete Prohibition didn't work.
Alternately, you could just shoot any pregnant woman to death if she reached for a drink and say that it was defending the life of another. Of course, the fetus would probably die as well and you'd go to jail, but you could feel better about yourself.

There'd be nothing wrong with that if s/he'd just move on to better threads. I want to see what the Baha'u'llah has to say about such urgent topics as "Baseball" and "Harriet Myers"..

Actually, I have posted about baseball. I am a Twins fan. I am happy the Sox won. I don't care who the President decides to appoint; it is the Senate's job to confirm or not confirm. The process is important. I did post in a thread about the process about one week ago.

Actually, I have posted about baseball. I am a Twins fan. I am happy the Sox won. I don't care who the President decides to appoint; it is the Senate's job to confirm or not confirm. The process is important. I did post in a thread about the process about one week ago.
I don't want to know what you have to say, I want a Baha'u'llah in support of the Twins! I WANT HERESY!

I don't want to know what you have to say, I want a Baha'u'llah in support of the Twins! I WANT HERESY!

Hmmm, this may take a little while. But for you I will try very, very hard.

I don't want to know what you have to say, I want a Baha'u'llah in support of the Twins! I WANT HERESY!

Well, here it is. Hope you enjoy. ;)


Salutation and praise, blessing and glory rest upon that primal branch of the Divine and Sacred Lote-Tree, grown out, blest, tender, verdant and flourishing from the Twin Holy Trees; the most wondrous, unique and priceless pearl that doth gleam from out the twin surging seas; upon the offshoots of the Tree of Holiness, the twigs of the Celestial Tree, they that in the Day of the Great Dividing have stood fast and firm in the Covenant; upon the Hands (pillars) of the Cause of God that have diffused widely the Divine Fragrances, declared His Proofs, proclaimed His Faith, published abroad His Law, detached themselves from all things but Him, stood for righteousness in this world, and kindled the Fire of the Love of God in the very hearts and souls of His servants; upon them that have believed, rested assured, stood steadfast in His Covenant and followed the Light that after my passing shineth from the Dayspring of Divine Guidance -- for behold! he is the blest and sacred bough that hath branched out from the Twin Holy Trees. Well is it with him that seeketh the shelter of his shade that shadoweth all mankind.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 439)

Hmmm, this may take a little while. But for you I will try very, very hard.
I have just inspired an actual theological question.

I feel strange, like someone just stuffed a squirrel down my pants.

I don't want to know what you have to say, I want a Baha'u'llah in support of the Twins! I WANT HERESY!
Dear god, you made him/her do it again.

*sigh*

I have just inspired an actual theological question.

I feel strange, like someone just stuffed a squirrel down my pants.

I used have a pet squirrel. His name was Sammy.

Dear god, you made him/her do it again.

*sigh*

Ya, wasn't that sweet of him. If I could I would give him a big, sloppy kiss. :p