NationStates Jolt Archive


Has Mediocre Become the New Standard of Performance?

Myrmidonisia
26-10-2005, 17:59
Do we demand too little excellence and tolerate too much mediocrity in our dealings with others?

For example, do we let a little mistake in a restaurant order just go by without comment? If we order a rare steak and it's served medium, is that okay? I mean, it's pretty close, isn't it?

Do we tolerate misspellings in personal correspondence? How about in business correspondence? If someone is going to write a letter, email, note, memo, or whatever, shouldn't they make sure the words are spelled right? Or even that the right words are used? I have a lovely help wanted ad posted on my wall. It is soliciting applications for some teachers in Boxborough, MA. The EEO statement in the fine print assures us that the school system won't "...decimate [sic] on the basis of race, national origin, or sex...".

Do we teach our kids soccer instead of baseball because it's easier to be mediocre right off the bat? Seriously, it's a whole llot easier to kick a ball in the general direction of someone else than it is to actually throw a ball from third to first base.

The answer is yes, we have become to lazy and demand something far short of excellence from others. In fact, I don't think we even demand a good effort anymore. That's why we tolerate these big federal giveaways that are disguised as highway bills. That's why we tolerate schools that can't graduate students who can pass a simple graduation exam.
Nikitas
26-10-2005, 18:11
Excellence and mediocrity are not static terms and they are, in a way, mutually referential.

Where all steaks are cooked exactly to the customer's specfication without exception, then that becomes the norm and excellence is getting a free b.j. thrown in.
Sinuhue
26-10-2005, 18:13
Well, here's my take on this issues you've brought up.

When it comes to the service industry...the lowest paying, most demanding of jobs (dealing with the public, I would argue, is much more difficult/stressful than designing aircraft, or other highly skilled trades), I tend to let things slide unless the service I'm getting is truly atrocious for no particular reason. If we want excellence in the service industry, we need to pay for it. It seems interesting that when you get higher paying jobs, with short hours, great benefits, the standards are much lower than they are for people who work the 'unskilled' service jobs. In that way I agree with you...life as a professional is much more competative in other nations and reviews, upgrades in training and hard work are necessary in order to keep your position. Here, it seems to be the opposite...the lower scale jobs are the ones with all that kind of pressure...and the higher scale jobs are a haven for slackers. You want to be boss? Make sure that you can talk total bullshit, never answer a direct question, delegate all responsibility to others, spend like there's no tomorrow and write it all off as business expenses and never ever rock the boat.

Hmmm...I guess I'm bitter....I actually expected myself and others to be held to some sort of professional standard once I got out of waitressing.
DrunkenDove
26-10-2005, 18:20
Do we teach our kids soccer instead of baseball because it's easier to be mediocre right off the bat? Seriously, it's a whole llot easier to kick a ball in the general direction of someone else than it is to actually throw a ball from third to first base.

I'd say it's easier to hit a ball with a bat then it is to kick a ball in such a way that it clears the wall, makes it impossible for the keeper to save and yet gracefully glides into the top right hand corner.
Smunkeeville
26-10-2005, 18:25
less than that has become the new standard and that is one of the reasons I quit working.

there was a saying around when I was the manager that I absolutly hated "half assed is good enough"
My employees hated me because I expected them to *gasp* do thier jobs, and not just do them but do them well.

I became bitter and angry and just not fun at all to be with, I would say things like "don't you know you are replaceable? I could go pick up someone off the street that would do your job for 1/2 the pay and do it better then you."

it was a bad bad time for me. I prefer to work at home for myself. That way I can take pride in my work and don't have to pick up the slack for anyone else.
Sinuhue
26-10-2005, 18:28
it was a bad bad time for me. I prefer to work at home for myself. That way I can take pride in my work and don't have to pick up the slack for anyone else.
I really think this is why so many people want to be their own bosses...when you see the incompetance and the mismanagement in a company, and know yourself absolutely powerless to change it...you become very frustrated. Good enough is not good enough! Sheesh! Have some pride! And it's always the people lowest on the corporate ladder that have to pick up the slack. Skewed priorities.
Myrmidonisia
26-10-2005, 18:38
I really think this is why so many people want to be their own bosses...when you see the incompetance and the mismanagement in a company, and know yourself absolutely powerless to change it...you become very frustrated. Good enough is not good enough! Sheesh! Have some pride! And it's always the people lowest on the corporate ladder that have to pick up the slack. Skewed priorities.
I think you're painting management as incompetent with too broad a brush. I agree completely, though, that bad management causes a problem in the ranks that just can't be overstated.

So, as stockholders, shouldn't we demand better management?
The blessed Chris
26-10-2005, 18:44
I disagree with the comments regarding football, since a true footballer is a consumately skilled player, however, the sentiments extolled are correct. It is not difficult to serve a steak rare, notably when I pay £25 for it, nor to serve garlic mayonnaise, not normal mayonnaise. Moreover, in education, academia is now disregarded in favour of "vocational" subjects and "useful" option such as media studies, to ensure the stupid get an education. If they want one, stop imposing upon my academic progression.
The Cat-Tribe
26-10-2005, 18:52
Do we demand too little excellence and tolerate too much mediocrity in our dealings with others?

For example, do we let a little mistake in a restaurant order just go by without comment? If we order a rare steak and it's served medium, is that okay? I mean, it's pretty close, isn't it?

Do we tolerate misspellings in personal correspondence? How about in business correspondence? If someone is going to write a letter, email, note, memo, or whatever, shouldn't they make sure the words are spelled right? Or even that the right words are used? I have a lovely help wanted ad posted on my wall. It is soliciting applications for some teachers in Boxborough, MA. The EEO statement in the fine print assures us that the school system won't "...decimate [sic] on the basis of race, national origin, or sex...".

Do we teach our kids soccer instead of baseball because it's easier to be mediocre right off the bat? Seriously, it's a whole llot easier to kick a ball in the general direction of someone else than it is to actually throw a ball from third to first base.

The answer is yes, we have become to lazy and demand something far short of excellence from others. In fact, I don't think we even demand a good effort anymore. That's why we tolerate these big federal giveaways that are disguised as highway bills. That's why we tolerate schools that can't graduate students who can pass a simple graduation exam.

Do we nominate mediocre Supreme Court Justices because we know they are evangelical Christians and will vote against Roe v. Wade?
Myrmidonisia
26-10-2005, 18:52
I disagree with the comments regarding football, since a true footballer is a consumately skilled player, however, the sentiments extolled are correct. It is not difficult to serve a steak rare, notably when I pay £25 for it, nor to serve garlic mayonnaise, not normal mayonnaise. Moreover, in education, academia is now disregarded in favour of "vocational" subjects and "useful" option such as media studies, to ensure the stupid get an education. If they want one, stop imposing upon my academic progression.
Just so you guys stop complaining about soccer, or metric football, as I like to refer to it, I want to make it clear that I was talking about the skills required to start playing the game, not go to the World Cup.
Myrmidonisia
26-10-2005, 18:53
Do we nominate mediocre Supreme Court Justices because we know they are evangelical Christians and will vote against Roe v. Wade?
Maybe. Maybe we just owe them a favor? Either way, it sure smacks of laziness, doesn't it?
Sierra BTHP
26-10-2005, 18:54
I find it depends on how much I pay.

If I pay the lowest wages possible to hire programmers, I'm going to get recent immigrants from India who, although they technically speak English, and technically know how to program, have no idea what I'm talking about, what we need, or how to go about doing it.

If I pay more, I generally get better programmers - especially if I pay top dollar.

Same with steaks. If I go to Outback, I'm lucky to get a steak that's cooked, let alone to order, and the cut of meat will be tough, because I'm too cheap to pay for a decent steak prepared properly. If I go to the Capitol Grille, I'll get a steak worthy of the gods, and it will be properly prepared to order. But I'll pay for that.

You're paying for the labor. If you want to be cheap, you'll get unmotivated, unskilled, uncaring labor. Free market, you know.
Smunkeeville
26-10-2005, 18:54
I really think this is why so many people want to be their own bosses...when you see the incompetance and the mismanagement in a company, and know yourself absolutely powerless to change it...you become very frustrated. Good enough is not good enough! Sheesh! Have some pride! And it's always the people lowest on the corporate ladder that have to pick up the slack. Skewed priorities.
yeah that too. mostly I think I was tired of being responsible without recourse. for example if one of my employees screwed up, I was responsible, but I couldn't fire them or write them up or anything. I had responsibility but no rights. If the register was short $20 I couldn't do anything to them but it would come out of my check, I couldn't even make them count down the drawer so they could see that it was short. very frustrating.
I had a guy come to work drunk one time, I couldn't send him home, so I put him in the back to do dishes and when he threw up in the sink I got written up. not cool.
The blessed Chris
26-10-2005, 18:55
Just so you guys stop complaining about soccer, or metric football, as I like to refer to it, I want to make it clear that I was talking about the skills required to start playing the game, not go to the World Cup.

I suppose so, at least youare more reasonable than lyric, who considers a it a "dumbass" game. Its the same as cricket really; its too much effort to teach the kids to throw, bowl or bat, so lets teach them to kick each other and the ball.
Sinuhue
26-10-2005, 18:58
I think you're painting management as incompetent with too broad a brush. I agree completely, though, that bad management causes a problem in the ranks that just can't be overstated. I don't know if I'm painting it broadly enough actually. My husband, for example, works in a diamond mine...the waste, the incredible, mind boggling, millions of dollars of waste...and it could be avoided if people stopped signing these little nepotic agreements with suppliers (friends, family) and actually worked at being competitive. But then again, when this company makes billions of dollars a year, a few million here and there are not unreasonable in the big picture. Still...why not try? The same goes with my company. They fly the bosses and their spouses out to Germany for meetings...but a cost analysis of the venture versus what those meetings ever actually bring in for us is never done...while people on the bottom have to beg for a mileage claim when they are required to be somewhere for a meeting. It's disgusting, and it's not necessarily because management is incompetant, but rather that expectations are not high.

So, as stockholders, shouldn't we demand better management? I'd like to see less nepotism overall. It's all about who you know in many cases, and not what you know. The bullshit you can spread rather than the tasks you are capable of completing.
Myrmidonisia
26-10-2005, 18:58
I find it depends on how much I pay.

If I pay the lowest wages possible to hire programmers, I'm going to get recent immigrants from India who, although they technically speak English, and technically know how to program, have no idea what I'm talking about, what we need, or how to go about doing it.

If I pay more, I generally get better programmers - especially if I pay top dollar.

Same with steaks. If I go to Outback, I'm lucky to get a steak that's cooked, let alone to order, and the cut of meat will be tough, because I'm too cheap to pay for a decent steak prepared properly. If I go to the Capitol Grille, I'll get a steak worthy of the gods, and it will be properly prepared to order. But I'll pay for that.

You're paying for the labor. If you want to be cheap, you'll get unmotivated, unskilled, uncaring labor. Free market, you know.
Have they got a Capitol Grille up there, too? What a great restaurant!
Kanabia
26-10-2005, 19:00
Meh. Even if I go out of my way to help people and do a good job, I only get abuse coming my way anyway.

Case point (I've told this story here before, i'm sure of it...); a while back, I was working a 9 hour shift, (on my feet bagging groceries...fun!) and in the last 10 minutes of it, I went off to go help a lady load up her car, because the people who were supposed to do it weren't coming. Upon returning, i went to close up my till, told a guy that I was closed, and got subject to some rather violent verbal abuse. I was then told to serve the guy by my supervisor. (despite being meant to finish up about 15 minutes ago) So I did. And then he claimed I short changed him. And after sorting that out (turned out I didn't short change him.), it was something like half an hour over the time I was supposed to finish. My supervisor then informed me off handedly "By the way, you're not being paid for that". And then I missed my bus because of all this hassle, and ended up having to catch a taxi home, costing me about $15.

So now I make it a point to leave 5 minutes early. Why should I go out of my way to give good service when i'm not being recognised - or paid - for it? Nobody seems to give a shit if i'm mediocre. Putting myself out only gives me stress.
Myrmidonisia
26-10-2005, 19:00
I suppose so, at least youare more reasonable than lyric, who considers a it a "dumbass" game. Its the same as cricket really; its too much effort to teach the kids to throw, bowl or bat, so lets teach them to kick each other and the ball.
I actually have played cricket. Sort of. I bought a bat and ball for some laborers we had hired in India and they let me hit for a while.
The blessed Chris
26-10-2005, 19:02
I actually have played cricket. Sort of. I bought a bat and ball for some laborers we had hired in India and they let me hit for a while.

Did you enjoy it? I'm not great, but I do enjoy playing every so often, and the atmosphere at the oval was awesome in september...:)
Sinuhue
26-10-2005, 19:02
I think that in many cases, people take those 'higher paying' jobs with the idea of just being comfortable and not rocking the boat. Now, don't get me wrong...I don't want people to work like dogs to keep things super efficient. But too often, management pay lip service to the ideas of the people on the front lines, without actually implementing any of their suggestions. That separation between the 'managed' and management needs to be bridged better. People need to feel more involved and powerful in their jobs, and they will be inspired to help make changes if they know that the work they put in makes a difference, and they are listened to. Otherwise you just get bitter and stop bothering to try.
Sinuhue
26-10-2005, 19:04
Nobody seems to give a shit if i'm mediocre. Putting myself out only gives me stress.
Yes! It's easier on everyone to be mediocre. Management just wants to hear that everything is going smoothly, and many workers just want to avoid being under pressure. But it means that no one takes a real stake in things, or cares enough to improve things. Because it IS stressful, when the pressure is to maintain the status quo. Why fight it when it doesn't really get you anywhere anyway?
Myrmidonisia
26-10-2005, 19:09
Did you enjoy it? I'm not great, but I do enjoy playing every so often, and the atmosphere at the oval was awesome in september...:)
The Oval means OSU to me. Cricket on the Oval? Woody would spin in his grave.

Hitting was fun. I think there should have been some running in there, too, but I didn't have a clue about the rules.
H N Fiddlebottoms VIII
26-10-2005, 19:10
<sniptastico>
If you were being serious, you were right. If you were being sarcastic then you are a little crazy.
The reason why workers get paid to do stuff, is because they don't really want to do that with their time. If someone wanted to bag groceries, then their wouldn't be any wage in it, the baggers would just find the process an interesting use of their time. However, all things being equal, no one qould bag groceries, so management offers sacks of money in return for doing things. Now, if you mess around with someone's sack, then they are going to eventually decide "fuck this" and just screw around when they should be working, and they'll settle down to a minimum standard.
Kanabia
26-10-2005, 19:11
Yes! It's easier on everyone to be mediocre. Management just wants to hear that everything is going smoothly, and many workers just want to avoid being under pressure. But it means that no one takes a real stake in things, or cares enough to improve things. Because it IS stressful, when the pressure is to maintain the status quo. Why fight it when it doesn't really get you anywhere anyway?

Exactly. I only do what they pay me to do now. They can't expect anything more.
Myrmidonisia
26-10-2005, 19:19
Yes! It's easier on everyone to be mediocre. Management just wants to hear that everything is going smoothly, and many workers just want to avoid being under pressure. But it means that no one takes a real stake in things, or cares enough to improve things. Because it IS stressful, when the pressure is to maintain the status quo. Why fight it when it doesn't really get you anywhere anyway?
See, right there is where I have a huge objection. It is easier to be average than it is to be good, but that attitude eventually causes problems. Deadlines are missed, quality out the door sucks...It isn't a condition that is self-sustaining. Not in manufacturing, anyway.

That's why we are always preaching quality and giving bonuses where it makes sense.
Myrmidonisia
26-10-2005, 19:21
Exactly. I only do what they pay me to do now. They can't expect anything more.
If there was a potential bonus or raise for you, would you do more than the minimums?
Sinuhue
26-10-2005, 19:22
If you were being serious, you were right. If you were being sarcastic then you are a little crazy.

Well I am a little crazy...but I was being serious.

And isn't it always the best jobs that end up being unpaid work? Sigh. Seriously...they have to work on such a small budget, that everything is streamlined and runs as well as possible...and when you volunteer it is generally because you really want to do that thing.
Kanabia
26-10-2005, 19:23
See, right there is where I have a huge objection. It is easier to be average than it is to be good, but that attitude eventually causes problems. Deadlines are missed, quality out the door sucks...It isn't a condition that is self-sustaining. Not in manufacturing, anyway.

That's why we are always preaching quality and giving bonuses where it makes sense.

Yeah, but in my instance, if I have to work overtime in the interests of "good customer service", I don't get paid for it - not a cent, even if i'm stuck there for an hour. I don't get recognition for it, either. Nobody except myself notices. And if i'm mediocre, nobody except myself notices either. I think I know which is the more logical option to take.
Kanabia
26-10-2005, 19:24
If there was a potential bonus or raise for you, would you do more than the minimums?

Sure, even if I got something as simple as a "thank you" i'd be a lot more motivated to do so.
Sinuhue
26-10-2005, 19:26
See, right there is where I have a huge objection. It is easier to be average than it is to be good, but that attitude eventually causes problems. Deadlines are missed, quality out the door sucks...It isn't a condition that is self-sustaining. Not in manufacturing, anyway. Of course it isn't. And not every sector is going to be the same...companies that don't have a lot of competition aren't going to be as worried about maintaining an edge, and those are the kinds of companies I've tended to work for, as has my husband (I'm in a semi-government teaching job, and he's in a diamond mine)

That's why we are always preaching quality and giving bonuses where it makes sense.
Yes...but even those things don't guarantee efficiency. My husband gets bonuses too...most of the guys do when they exceed production that quarter. But then again, my husband is currently sitting on his ass for the next three weeks because they want him to take a little course before he continues doing his electrical work...and it makes more sense for them to pay him to wait, fly an instructor in next turn around, than it does to fly my husband to the instructor? Who made that decision? And who is checking that this decision makes any damn financial sense?
Sinuhue
26-10-2005, 19:32
If there was a potential bonus or raise for you, would you do more than the minimums?
I'll answer that too:)

That would be nice...but I wouldn't want it if it was just lip service. Too often, people bust their asses because they have a sense of professional pride, and rather than being rewarded, that extra work is seen as the norm, and expected all the time. People who sit on their butts have less stress, make a little bit less, but have to work much less and THAT is seen as the norm.

If I could actually feel that those of us who go the extra mile were making a tangible difference...that our projects wouldn't get shelved because of some technicality or internal jealousy...then yes! Of course I want to do the best I can! But when obstacles are constantly put in my path out of sheer stupidity...too many cooks in the kitchen...I stop caring.

It's like this (using the cooking analogy): I realise that our cakes are of low quality because we lack enough sugar. I tell management, and they thank me for my suggestion, but no sugar is forthcoming. It would cost too much they say, and forget that increased quality would actually increase sales...good enough is good enough. So I spend the time to figure out a way to improve the cakes without sugar...I research, I test, and I make a proposal...but it is refused because then Sam's brother down at HappyHappySugarCo would lose out on the supply contract.

Why bother?
Evil Woody Thoughts
26-10-2005, 19:45
Yeah, but in my instance, if I have to work overtime in the interests of "good customer service", I don't get paid for it - not a cent, even if i'm stuck there for an hour. I don't get recognition for it, either. Nobody except myself notices. And if i'm mediocre, nobody except myself notices either. I think I know which is the more logical option to take.

You do realize that "off the clock" overtime is illegal, right?

I know what "mandatory overtime" in customer circus is like; I'm an airline industry brat. My summer jobs have included pushing people who need wheelchairs through the cesspool that is O'Hare International and escorting unaccompanied minors through the same. And we are told the same exact things regarding staying past the standard shift, and often told "do it or else." Mandatory overtime is quite common in the airline industry.

It wasn't uncommon for me to be sent to assist passengers at Gate XX fifteen minutes before the end of my shift, and get stuck working a couple of hours extra, often not having the slightest idea when I'd get to leave The Airport from Hell. Once I was sent to assist a disabled passenger, who only spoke German, at 9:15 (shift ended at 9:30). I was at the airport until 1 AM explaining hotel vouchers, cancelled flights, and "the airline must put you on the next flight out in the morning," all in German.

Even though my employer at the time was incredibly cheap (subcontractor), I still was able to hunt down the midnight supervisor after taking this passenger to the airport Hilton (and acting as a translator, lol). I still got paid for my three-and-a-half hours of overtime, because even though my employer was cheapa$$ (I was probably their best employee, and that's saying something because normally I'm a slacker myself), they still had to follow the law.

This was a minimum wage job, btw. Everyone here will probably think I got pwn3d, but unlike Kanabia, I did get paid for it, and I did get to brush up on my German skills:D

If unpaid overtime is a problem for you, you might want to troll the state Department of Labor, without tipping off your employer of course.;) You could go through the federal DoL, but it'll probably take longer and involve more bureaucracy and hassle.

Unless of course, you work for Wal-Mart, because they have every politician in the nation bought and paid for, and said politicians will quash any DoL investigations.;)
Compadria
26-10-2005, 19:59
Do we demand too little excellence and tolerate too much mediocrity in our dealings with others?

For example, do we let a little mistake in a restaurant order just go by without comment? If we order a rare steak and it's served medium, is that okay? I mean, it's pretty close, isn't it?

Do we tolerate misspellings in personal correspondence? How about in business correspondence? If someone is going to write a letter, email, note, memo, or whatever, shouldn't they make sure the words are spelled right? Or even that the right words are used? I have a lovely help wanted ad posted on my wall. It is soliciting applications for some teachers in Boxborough, MA. The EEO statement in the fine print assures us that the school system won't "...decimate [sic] on the basis of race, national origin, or sex...".

Do we teach our kids soccer instead of baseball because it's easier to be mediocre right off the bat? Seriously, it's a whole llot easier to kick a ball in the general direction of someone else than it is to actually throw a ball from third to first base.

The answer is yes, we have become to lazy and demand something far short of excellence from others. In fact, I don't think we even demand a good effort anymore. That's why we tolerate these big federal giveaways that are disguised as highway bills. That's why we tolerate schools that can't graduate students who can pass a simple graduation exam.

This isn't really an example of of mediocrity, cooking a steak is not really a science, there is always some approximation involved in cooking. Anyway, as I 've always been told, waste not-want not.

As a die hard football fan (soccer is an ugly word and should be banned; the sport Americans call 'football' is just a version of rugby for wosses who can't take a tackle like a man), I object to this characterisation.
Football involves hard work, team spirit and co-operation, skill with the ball and all-round awareness of where everyone is and how to exploit your situations to the maximum. It's a great sport. Anyway baseball has always struck me, personally, as a rather boring sport. It's nothing compared to cricket, which actually requires skill from the batsmen and bowlers, instead of just hitting/throwing the ball as hard as possible.


Federal give-aways, what like paying for health-care :rolleyes:, I'm aware that any government expenditure other than military appears to be viewed as socialistic by a section of the U.S. public, yet even this seems a little extreme. Anyway, when my parents were growing up, only about 5% of people went to university (in Britain) and for the rest, there was a large manufacturing and unskilled labour market. It's not necessarily that standards have slipped, just that any defficiencies have become more obvious in today's jobs and careers market.

So in conclusion, I think we're really worrying about too much here, accepting the occasional mediocrity is part of the great process that is life. So get used to it and even (I dare say) enjoy it.
Kanabia
26-10-2005, 20:01
You do realize that "off the clock" overtime is illegal, right?

I know what "mandatory overtime" in customer circus is like; I'm an airline industry brat. My summer jobs have included pushing people who need wheelchairs through the cesspool that is O'Hare International and escorting unaccompanied minors through the same. And we are told the same exact things regarding staying past the standard shift, and often told "do it or else." Mandatory overtime is quite common in the airline industry.

It wasn't uncommon for me to be sent to assist passengers at Gate XX fifteen minutes before the end of my shift, and get stuck working a couple of hours extra, often not having the slightest idea when I'd get to leave The Airport from Hell. Once I was sent to assist a disabled passenger, who only spoke German, at 9:15 (shift ended at 9:30). I was at the airport until 1 AM explaining hotel vouchers, cancelled flights, and "the airline must put you on the next flight out in the morning," all in German.

Even though my employer at the time was incredibly cheap (subcontractor), I still was able to hunt down the midnight supervisor after taking this passenger to the airport Hilton (and acting as a translator, lol). I still got paid for my three-and-a-half hours of overtime, because even though my employer was cheapa$$ (I was probably their best employee, and that's saying something because normally I'm a slacker myself), they still had to follow the law.

This was a minimum wage job, btw. Everyone here will probably think I got pwn3d, but unlike Kanabia, I did get paid for it, and I did get to brush up on my German skills:D

If unpaid overtime is a problem for you, you might want to troll the state Department of Labor, without tipping off your employer of course.;) You could go through the federal DoL, but it'll probably take longer and involve more bureaucracy and hassle.

Unless of course, you work for Wal-Mart, because they have every politician in the nation bought and paid for, and said politicians will quash any DoL investigations.;)


Not over here (Australia), I don't think. A lot of people over here in full time work especially end up having to stay for extra hours. My dad is supposed to work 9-5, but it's more like 8-6. Casual labour like i'm doing is worse, because you simply *cannot* leave until your replacement arrives - whether for security reasons, or practicality. If they don't turn up, you're screwed, and they won't pay you for it. You get overtime pay only if they explicitly ask you to stay on for longer. If you're in a situation where you can't leave, and they don't ask you to stay on, you've got nowhere to go really.

We once did have overtime pay; but the union agreed with the company to abolish it. Go figure.
Potaria
26-10-2005, 20:03
Not over here (Australia), I don't think. A lot of people over here in full time work especially end up having to stay for extra hours. My dad is supposed to work 9-5, but it's more like 8-6. Casual labour like i'm doing is worse, because you simply *cannot* leave until your replacement arrives - whether for security reasons, or practicality. If they don't turn up, you're screwed, and they won't pay you for it. You get overtime pay only if they explicitly ask you to stay on for longer. If you're in a situation where you can't leave, and they don't ask you to stay on, you've got nowhere to go really.

We once did have overtime pay; but the union agreed with the company to abolish it. Go figure.

Wow... Some government officials need to be bludgeoned.
Evil Woody Thoughts
26-10-2005, 20:11
Not over here (Australia), I don't think. A lot of people over here in full time work especially end up having to stay for extra hours. My dad is supposed to work 9-5, but it's more like 8-6. Casual labour like i'm doing is worse, because you simply *cannot* leave until your replacement arrives - whether for security reasons, or practicality. If they don't turn up, you're screwed, and they won't pay you for it. You get overtime pay only if they explicitly ask you to stay on for longer. If you're in a situation where you can't leave, and they don't ask you to stay on, you've got nowhere to go really.

We once did have overtime pay; but the union agreed with the company to abolish it. Go figure.

Wow. T3h sux0rz. That's what I get for assuming that developed countries have anything resembling labor regulations, I suppose.

Then again, I should realize that the right wing has pwn3d Australian politics of late, and I shouldn't be suprised at this...after all, the Bush administration is no friend of labor regulation either.:headbang:

Edit: And what if your replacement calls in sick? Can they make you work a double shift with no OT pay?:eek:
Kanabia
26-10-2005, 20:28
Wow. T3h sux0rz. That's what I get for assuming that developed countries have anything resembling labor regulations, I suppose.

Then again, I should realize that the right wing has pwn3d Australian politics of late, and I shouldn't be suprised at this...after all, the Bush administration is no friend of labor regulation either.:headbang:

Heh. That's exactly it. And it's getting worse, they're passing through a new industrial relations system...

Edit: And what if your replacement calls in sick? Can they make you work a double shift with no OT pay?:eek:

I don't think so; it's happened before and i've been told they need me to stay on, although I have been paid for it. If they didn't tell me and just left me there, it would be interesting, though.