NationStates Jolt Archive

Tell me, as we seem to have the battle of the very badly named Darwinists vs Creationists on a daily basis on this board, I have a little question...

The big question seems not be what actually is the case in how we got to where we are, but what should be taught. Fundamental Creationists argue that only Creation should be taught, while more liberal ones argue that God and evolution should be taught together.

Well, why not? But not in the way I suppose some mean...

There is really no place for God in a biology classroom. However, religious studies are the perfect place for this kind of discussion. Of course, by religious studies I mean the study of all religions, and non religions, and anti-religions and all that jazz. Not just Christianity.

I speak from experience when I say I was indoctrinated into Christianity. I knew other religions existed, but they were "wrong" on principle, because ONLY my religion was right. I sometimes feel a portion of a life was stolen during that period, and “1984” seems more a reflection of religious indoctrination than political suppression to me now.

So, school is for education right? Let's get educated. According to the theologian and the scientist.

There is really no place for God in a biology classroom. However, religious studies are the perfect place for this kind of discussion.
That's what happens currently (here, at least). What the scientists object to is people wanting God-based theories taught in Biology lessons instead of RE lessons.

Tell me, as we seem to have the battle of the very badly named Darwinists vs Creationists on a daily basis on this board, I have a little question...

The big question seems not be what actually is the case in how we got to where we are, but what should be taught. Fundamental Creationists argue that only Creation should be taught, while more liberal ones argue that God and evolution should be taught together.

Well, why not? But not in the way I suppose some mean...

There is really no place for God in a biology classroom. However, religious studies are the perfect place for this kind of discussion. Of course, by religious studies I mean the study of all religions, and non religions, and anti-religions and all that jazz. Not just Christianity.

I speak from experience when I say I was indoctrinated into Christianity. I knew other religions existed, but they were "wrong" on principle, because ONLY my religion was right. I sometimes feel a portion of a life was stolen during that period, and “1984” seems more a reflection of religious indoctrination than political suppression to me now.

So, school is for education right? Let's get educated. According to the theologian and the scientist.


I am all for a general theology course.

I'm also in favour of a general theology/philosophy course in schools that teaches about a broad spectrum of religions and belief systems. In fact, I would be in favour of such a course being required learning in public schools, so we can catch some of that ignorance at an early age.

The more informed youngsters are about all the various beliefs, the more tolerant of people's beliefs they're likely to be once they reach adulthood.

Tell me, as we seem to have the battle of the very badly named Darwinists vs Creationists on a daily basis on this board, I have a little question...

The big question seems not be what actually is the case in how we got to where we are, but what should be taught. Fundamental Creationists argue that only Creation should be taught, while more liberal ones argue that God and evolution should be taught together.

Well, why not? But not in the way I suppose some mean...

There is really no place for God in a biology classroom. However, religious studies are the perfect place for this kind of discussion. Of course, by religious studies I mean the study of all religions, and non religions, and anti-religions and all that jazz. Not just Christianity.

I speak from experience when I say I was indoctrinated into Christianity. I knew other religions existed, but they were "wrong" on principle, because ONLY my religion was right. I sometimes feel a portion of a life was stolen during that period, and “1984” seems more a reflection of religious indoctrination than political suppression to me now.

So, school is for education right? Let's get educated. According to the theologian and the scientist.
Of course I agree completely but that's the problem, isn't it? You strike such a reasonable tone that this post is almost certainly destined to slide slowly into obscurity. Your only hope is if someone declares that religion to be the enemy of logic that should be wiped clean from the face of this earth and that it's followers should be cleansed in fire. Rivers should run red with blood and such and such.. of course you don't want your post to be hijacked by people debated the enviromental repercussions of such actions but what are you going to do about it?

We have such a class in Ireland although It's really just a blanket course for anything. We had sex education and careers advice in our religion classes. Most of my (then) fellow pupils found the whole thing profoundly boring. I enjoyed debating ehtics with my teachers though.

I'm also in favour of a general theology/philosophy course in schools that teaches about a broad spectrum of religions and belief systems. In fact, I would be in favour of such a course being required learning in public schools, so we can catch some of that ignorance at an early age.

The more informed youngsters are about all the various beliefs, the more tolerant of people's beliefs they're likely to be once they reach adulthood.
But what about the people who are already well-informed even by the time they get to high school? I knew the lowdown (at least the basic lowdown) on every major world religion before my confirmation in eighth grade simply because I wanted to make sure I was making the right decision. Based upon my previous knowledge, I would've been infuriated if they'd tried to require that of me. Not because I wouldn't be open to further learning, but because it would probably be the same thing over and over (like when my university required me to take Latin 1 again even though I finished high school through Latin 3, y'know?)

Curses.....I'd intended to see this through, but it appears I have a lunch date. I'll be back to defend myself in about three hours.......

Tell me, as we seem to have the battle of the very badly named Darwinists vs Creationists on a daily basis on this board, I have a little question...

The big question seems not be what actually is the case in how we got to where we are, but what should be taught. Fundamental Creationists argue that only Creation should be taught, while more liberal ones argue that God and evolution should be taught together.

Well, why not? But not in the way I suppose some mean...

There is really no place for God in a biology classroom. However, religious studies are the perfect place for this kind of discussion. Of course, by religious studies I mean the study of all religions, and non religions, and anti-religions and all that jazz. Not just Christianity.

I speak from experience when I say I was indoctrinated into Christianity. I knew other religions existed, but they were "wrong" on principle, because ONLY my religion was right. I sometimes feel a portion of a life was stolen during that period, and “1984” seems more a reflection of religious indoctrination than political suppression to me now.

So, school is for education right? Let's get educated. According to the theologian and the scientist.
This sounds like a reasonable compromise to me...Or on second thought, it is what I (on the darwinist side) want. You're asking the creationists and ID-whatever-a-person-who-believes-in-this-is-called to shut up and let us have it our way.

Really? I'd like to know how a Creationist feels about this...

I think that religion should have NO place in school period, I'm sorry but it's just an outdated means of controlling the sheeple (human/sheep) and it needs to be thrown out.

Want to see what religion can do to you? Look at the presidency/papacy of George W Bush to see just what "good" can come of religious fanatics being given even an INCH of power. They destroy EVERYTHING in sight and then say "It's all liberal's fault!"

God it's sickening!

I think that religion should have NO place in school period, I'm sorry but it's just an outdated means of controlling the sheeple (human/sheep) and it needs to be thrown out.

Want to see what religion can do to you? Look at the presidency/papacy of George W Bush to see just what "good" can come of religious fanatics being given even an INCH of power. They destroy EVERYTHING in sight and then say "It's all liberal's fault!"

God it's sickening!
Looks like we have a winner! Don't worry Korbidon, you can always depend on trolls to keep your post alive.

I think that religion should have NO place in school period, I'm sorry but it's just an outdated means of controlling the sheeple (human/sheep) and it needs to be thrown out.

Want to see what religion can do to you? Look at the presidency/papacy of George W Bush to see just what "good" can come of religious fanatics being given even an INCH of power. They destroy EVERYTHING in sight and then say "It's all liberal's fault!"

God it's sickening!
First of all, "religious" does not mean "conservative". I'm a fucking Catholic and I'm probably more liberal than a VAAAAST majority of the United States population. Second, the presidency of Bush is a poor example of even what the extremists seem to be, because there's such a small group of the overall Christian population that he actually represents. People are more likely to support him based on his political and fiscal policies than his religious attempts at control. Third, consider what you said.....religious FANATICS. This automatically implies that you're speaking only of the upper crust of the whackjobs, leaving out many moderate-to-light whackjobs, and completely excluding the level-headed religious individuals altogether. That also implies that your statements somewhat fall apart when you try to imply that it's all religious peoples that are at fault for not only controlling the masses (which all completely depends on how much a person is willing to be controlled), but also for "destroying" policies of a country.

Care to elaborate or at least try to make your arguments make sense to me? I've seen those kinds of claims before, and I have to say, it's not at all unfamiliar to me that a non-religious person is totally willing to put all theists in the same small-minded box, whether or not we actually belong there.

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There is really no place for God in a biology classroom. However, religious studies are the perfect place for this kind of discussion. Of course, by religious studies I mean the study of all religions, and non religions, and anti-religions and all that jazz. Not just Christianity.
bingo! by jove i think he's got it...

most anti-ID people, or antagonists against creationism being taught in school, aren't against it being taught at all, but against it being taught as a realistic - non-mythical, or non-religious - alternative to evolution. i'm one of them. but we don't have a problem with it being taught in religious studies or equivalent - indeed, thats where it belongs.

Simonist']But what about the people who are already well-informed even by the time they get to high school? I knew the lowdown (at least the basic lowdown) on every major world religion before my confirmation in eighth grade simply because I wanted to make sure I was making the right decision. Based upon my previous knowledge, I would've been infuriated if they'd tried to require that of me. Not because I wouldn't be open to further learning, but because it would probably be the same thing over and over (like when my university required me to take Latin 1 again even though I finished high school through Latin 3, y'know?)

Curses.....I'd intended to see this through, but it appears I have a lunch date. I'll be back to defend myself in about three hours.......

Well, you would have been in a pretty small minority in this case. Based on my previous knowledge, years 8-12 of English were frustrating and boring because I wasn't actually learning anything I didn't already know or was in the process of learning on my own anyway, but I was definitely in the minority there, and I still had to take the classes. I don't see a Theology/Philosphy class as any different, really.

I think that religion should have NO place in school period, I'm sorry but it's just an outdated means of controlling the sheeple (human/sheep) and it needs to be thrown out.

Want to see what religion can do to you? Look at the presidency/papacy of George W Bush to see just what "good" can come of religious fanatics being given even an INCH of power. They destroy EVERYTHING in sight and then say "It's all liberal's fault!"

God it's sickening!

Religion is like every other human endeavour; it can be used be people for noble purposes or it can be used by people for ignoble purposes. Just because some people hide behind religion to justify their ignoble ideas and actions is no more reason for it to be 'thrown out' than some people hiding behind 'science' to justify their ignoble actions and ideas is any reason for science to be 'thrown out'.

As for it being an outdated means of controlling people, well, basically: "Says you, chum". There are lots and lots (and lots) of people who disagree with you. People should be able to make up their own mind on whether they think religion is good, bad or neither, and to do this, I believe they should have as much information about it as they can. At the very least, being informed dispels ignorance on the subject, and with a subject that affects so many people, I think that's a good thing.

I am all for a general theology course.

Meh: I would opt for a philosophy course of some kind to be taught instead - one which would also contain an examination of theological systems.

I think that religion should have NO place in school period, I'm sorry but it's just an outdated means of controlling the sheeple (human/sheep) and it needs to be thrown out.

Want to see what religion can do to you? Look at the presidency/papacy of George W Bush to see just what "good" can come of religious fanatics being given even an INCH of power. They destroy EVERYTHING in sight and then say "It's all liberal's fault!"

God it's sickening!

That which you don't know is a heck of a lot more likely to hurt you. If your religious leader of whatever stripe tells you that all other religions sacrifice babies, that's what you're going to believe. The only way to get around this is to teach these children in the public school system that not all other religions sacrifice babies. Ignorance turns people into sheep, it doesn't raise them out of it.

Meh: I would opt for a philosophy course of some kind to be taught instead - one which would also contain an examination of theological systems.

IHS Comparative Values and Beliefs. It already exists. Personally I didn't like it much because I hated the teacher, but it could've gone better.

Meh: I would opt for a philosophy course of some kind to be taught instead - one which would also contain an examination of theological systems.
Indeed. Religion doesn't hold a monopoly when it comes to the "big questions" in life (like "why are we here?" "what is the meaning of life" etc), and some might even argue that secular philosophy does a better job of attacking these issues. Studying religion alone, separate, and in its own special class is cowardly...religion should be examined in the same context as other philosophical approaches, and should be held to the same critical standards.

There should definitely be a theology/religion/philosophy class in school, or even several. It would encourage tolerance and if literature is so important to our cultural awareness, religion certainly is.

Really? I'd like to know how a Creationist feels about this...

What type of Creationist?

There are many of us....

I for one am an Evolutionary Creationist [and much like Theistic Evolutionists], tend to mix into the background, along with all others who indeed understand evolutionary theories....

Young-Earth, Day-Agers and Progressive Creationists [along with ID'ers(what ever the hell they actually believe, since ID seems to be more like a set of statements of DISbelief) tend to be more vocal however.... Since unlike Theistic Evolutionists and Evolutionary Creationists, they have no honed their scientific wisdom down enough to recognize how to divine where you use religion, and where science....

I, myself, see no reason why there needs to be a "God" in a science classrooms; and would not mind RE courses in schools (elective or required)

Tell me, as we seem to have the battle of the very badly named Darwinists vs Creationists on a daily basis on this board, I have a little question...

The big question seems not be what actually is the case in how we got to where we are, but what should be taught. Fundamental Creationists argue that only Creation should be taught, while more liberal ones argue that God and evolution should be taught together.

Well, why not? But not in the way I suppose some mean...

There is really no place for God in a biology classroom. However, religious studies are the perfect place for this kind of discussion. Of course, by religious studies I mean the study of all religions, and non religions, and anti-religions and all that jazz. Not just Christianity.

I speak from experience when I say I was indoctrinated into Christianity. I knew other religions existed, but they were "wrong" on principle, because ONLY my religion was right. I sometimes feel a portion of a life was stolen during that period, and “1984” seems more a reflection of religious indoctrination than political suppression to me now.

So, school is for education right? Let's get educated. According to the theologian and the scientist.
The nub of the problem is that the Religious right feel that children should be taught to accept anything that they are told by an authority figure, and the scientific method of leaving open ends in its model of reality is opposed to that even before it starts blowing huge holes in any idea of genesis being taken as the literal truth.