NationStates Jolt Archive

Maybe it's just me, but our current generation has lost most, if not all it's faith in christianity. I speak of the 16-28 year old population of course. We've got loads of idiotic elderly and people in their 40's who still believe. But wonder of all wonders, they'll all be dead in a matter of years. This thread is to celebrate the death of illogical christianity in the United States. No one my age believes in creationism. No one my age thinks it's right to prevent gay people from getting marriage rights (okay, this isn't true, but the people who think it's okay are dropping like flies). Everyone believes in Evolution. Almost all the college students I know are atheists or agnostics. Most really just don't care. I am feeling optimistic, that America and the Western Hemisphere have finally thrown off the clutches of religion, and are now able to look towards a reasonable, logical future. Thoughts?

I have been posting this *way* too often:
http://www.triton.nu/albums/pics/aw_jeez_not_this_shit_again.thumb.jpg

Maybe it's just me, but our current generation has lost most, if not all it's faith in christianity. I speak of the 16-28 year old population of course. We've got loads of idiotic elderly and people in their 40's who still believe. But wonder of all wonders, they'll all be dead in a matter of years. This thread is to celebrate the death of illogical christianity in the United States. No one my age believes in creationism. No one my age thinks it's right to prevent gay people from getting marriage rights (okay, this isn't true, but the people who think it's okay are dropping like flies). Everyone believes in Evolution. Almost all the college students I know are atheists or agnostics. Most really just don't care. I am feeling optimistic, that America and the Western Hemisphere have finally thrown off the clutches of religion, and are now able to look towards a reasonable, logical future. Thoughts?

I guess you missed the post earlier today that linked to a study that showed that the majority of Americans believe in creation, not evolution. They believe that God created humans in their current form.

So put the cork back in the champagne bottle, and get back to work.

You’ve never been to Texas, have you son?

Really? Then everyone can stop calling America Jesusland, a name I find pretty stupidly offensive?

Maybe it's just me, but our current generation has lost most, if not all it's faith in christianity. I speak of the 16-28 year old population of course. We've got loads of idiotic elderly and people in their 40's who still believe. But wonder of all wonders, they'll all be dead in a matter of years. This thread is to celebrate the death of illogical christianity in the United States. No one my age believes in creationism. No one my age thinks it's right to prevent gay people from getting marriage rights (okay, this isn't true, but the people who think it's okay are dropping like flies). Everyone believes in Evolution. Almost all the college students I know are atheists or agnostics. Most really just don't care. I am feeling optimistic, that America and the Western Hemisphere have finally thrown off the clutches of religion, and are now able to look towards a reasonable, logical future. Thoughts?
http://articles.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20051024100409990019&ncid=NWS00010000000001

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20051024100409990019&ncid=NWS00010000000001


Actually fellas, I mentioned this article in my above post. What I'm saying, is that stupid old people are dying, and quickly, and our current generation just doesn't care about religion anymore. I got a pretty wide view of America when I lived on a military base in Germany. Nothing but redneck Texans and crazy Alabamans. God I hate the south. Anywho, even these kids rarely believed in god, and rarely went to church. A few did, but none cared extensively. My current home has a 10% church attendance rate. Meaning only 10% of the population of the City of Portland ever attends church. See? Dying off! Celebrations I say!

Maybe it's just me, but our current generation has lost most, if not all it's faith in christianity. I speak of the 16-28 year old population of course. We've got loads of idiotic elderly and people in their 40's who still believe. But wonder of all wonders, they'll all be dead in a matter of years. This thread is to celebrate the death of illogical christianity in the United States. No one my age believes in creationism. No one my age thinks it's right to prevent gay people from getting marriage rights (okay, this isn't true, but the people who think it's okay are dropping like flies). Everyone believes in Evolution. Almost all the college students I know are atheists or agnostics. Most really just don't care. I am feeling optimistic, that America and the Western Hemisphere have finally thrown off the clutches of religion, and are now able to look towards a reasonable, logical future. Thoughts?

Nope its just you. There has been kind of a resurgence of Christianity in some areas in the US, and it by far isn't dead. One of the the things that caused the Democrates to loose the last election was their underestimate of the Christian voting block.

Really? Then everyone can stop calling America Jesusland, a name I find pretty stupidly offensive?


Well, maybe you should wait 15 years. But yes, America is slipping into moral relativism and "degradation". I quite like it actually.

Actually fellas, I mentioned this article in my above post. What I'm saying, is that stupid old people are dying, and quickly, and our current generation just doesn't care about religion anymore. I got a pretty wide view of America when I lived on a military base in Germany. Nothing but redneck Texans and crazy Alabamans. God I hate the south. Anywho, even these kids rarely believed in god, and rarely went to church. A few did, but none cared extensively. My current home has a 10% church attendance rate. Meaning only 10% of the population of the City of Portland ever attends church. See? Dying off! Celebrations I say!
In my experience, the southerners who aren’t religious are just more enthusiastic about “turning the Middle East into a glass crater.” No real victory there.

Maybe it's just me, but our current generation has lost most, if not all it's faith in christianity. I speak of the 16-28 year old population of course. We've got loads of idiotic elderly and people in their 40's who still believe. But wonder of all wonders, they'll all be dead in a matter of years. This thread is to celebrate the death of illogical christianity in the United States. No one my age believes in creationism. No one my age thinks it's right to prevent gay people from getting marriage rights (okay, this isn't true, but the people who think it's okay are dropping like flies). Everyone believes in Evolution. Almost all the college students I know are atheists or agnostics. Most really just don't care. I am feeling optimistic, that America and the Western Hemisphere have finally thrown off the clutches of religion, and are now able to look towards a reasonable, logical future. Thoughts?

My thoughts are that I'm probably younger than most of you, and a huge bunch of the people around me, including myself, are fundamentalist Christians...

When I spent my whole either doing dope, talking about doing dope, looking for dope, selling dope, I thought that everyone I knew did dope (that was mostly true) and therefor I thought everyone did dope. When I stopped doing dope I discovered I was wrong about...... something, I forget what now.



And among the teachings of His Holiness Bahá'u'lláh is, that religion must be the cause of fellowship and love. If it becomes the cause of estrangement then it is not needed, for religion is like a remedy; if it aggravates the disease then it becomes unnecessary.

And among the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh is, that religion must be in conformity with science and reason, so that it may influence the hearts of men. The foundation must be solid and must not consist of imitations.

And among the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh is, that religious, racial, political, economic and patriotic prejudices destroy the edifice of humanity. As long as these prejudices prevail, the world of humanity will not have rest. For a period of 6,000 years history informs us about the world of humanity. During these 6,000 years the world of humanity has not been free from war, strife, murder and bloodthirstiness. In every period war has been waged in one country or another and that war was due to either religious prejudice, racial prejudice, political prejudice or patriotic prejudice. It has therefore been ascertained and proved that all prejudices are destructive of the human edifice. As long as these prejudices persist, the struggle for existence must remain dominant, and bloodthirstiness and rapacity continue. Therefore, even as was the case in the past, the world of humanity cannot be saved from the darkness of nature and cannot attain illumination except through the abandonment of prejudices and the acquisition of the morals of the Kingdom.

If this prejudice and enmity are on account of religion (consider that), religion should be the cause of fellowship, otherwise it is fruitless. And if this prejudice be the prejudice of nationality (consider that) all mankind are of one nation; all have sprung from the tree of Adam, and Adam is the root of the tree. That *287* tree is one and all these nations are like branches, while the individuals of humanity are like leaves, blossoms and fruits thereof. Then the establishment of various nations and the consequent shedding of blood and destruction of the edifice of humanity result from human ignorance and selfish motives.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 286)

I have been posting this *way* too often:
http://www.triton.nu/albums/pics/aw_jeez_not_this_shit_again.thumb.jpg
Third time in two days.

Nope its just you. There has been kind of a resurgence of Christianity in some areas in the US, and it by far isn't dead. One of the the things that caused the Democrates to loose the last election was their underestimate of the Christian voting block.


What about the young people? The idiotic elderly will all be dead 30 years from now, and our current generation is falling away from god just as fast as their parents are trying to bring them to church. I don't know what it's like in some parts of the country, but I find the trend to be that very few young people I know take christianity seriously.

I never said it was dead, I said it was dying. And this is the truth. I'll drag up some church attendance figures to show.

Ok, so who here from the North think Christianity is making a comeback?

Not me...

What about the young people? The idiotic elderly will all be dead 30 years from now, and our current generation is falling away from god just as fast as their parents are trying to bring them to church. I don't know what it's like in some parts of the country, but I find the trend to be that very few young people I know take christianity seriously.

I never said it was dead, I said it was dying. And this is the truth. I'll drag up some church attendance figures to show.

I've been to Christian rock concerts that had 50,000 teenagers in the place.

Third time in two days.
*sigh* by the end of the week I'll have memorized the UR-freaking L!

I never said it was dead, I said it was dying. And this is the truth. I'll drag up some church attendance figures to show.
Your church figures mean nothing. The majority of people who vote because they think the politician is more in line with Christianity do not attend church every Sunday and only 2% of Christians tithe. Hypocrisy is the American way. Surely you knew that?

When one religion dies, it's because another has subplanted it.

Christianity is dying in favor of a Republican Party-Sponsored State Theocracy under the control of the Pope-President George W. Bush the Messiah of the Universe and Killer of Liberals.

It's that simple.

I never said it was dead, I said it was dying. And this is the truth. I'll drag up some church attendance figures to show.
Ah, statistics. Did you know that 45.2% of them are made up on the spot?

When one religion dies, it's because another has subplanted it.

Christianity is dying in favor of a Republican Party-Sponsored State Theocracy under the control of the Pope-President George W. Bush the Messiah of the Universe and Killer of Liberals.

It's that simple.

Typical doomsday fantasticising... :D George Bush will be out in 2 years anyway.

... stupid old people are dying, and quickly ...
Now I know I'm going to beat this cancer, if for no other reason than to just stick around so I can piss you off! Mwahahahahahaha! :p

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0SOR/is_2_60/ai_55208518

Church going is an activity that is widely approved of. In this study, most people actually lie about whether or not they attended church the week before. Read.

Now I know I'm going to beat this cancer, if for no other reason than to just stick around so I can piss you off! Mwahahahahahaha! :p


You're a lecherous youthful old man. You count as young in my book Eut.

Ah, statistics. Did you know that 45.2% of them are made up on the spot?


Check the whole thing out. It's five pages long.

Ah, statistics. Did you know that 45.2% of them are made up on the spot?

Wrong. 45.2000000000000000132%, actually. :D

(J/k, in case you couldn't tell, I pulled that number out of my ass)

Wrong. 45.2000000000000000132%, actually. :D

(J/k, in case you couldn't tell, I pulled that number out of my ass)
Really? Does that mean that your head is next? :p

Really? Does that mean that your head is next? :p

Ummmm...possibly. ;)

Typical doomsday fantasticising... :D George Bush will be out in 2 years anyway.

And what are the odds that JEB Bush will rig... I mean "win" the 08 election and declare his family desended from Christ and that they have the Divine Right to become the first Imperial Family of the Christian Imperium of America and that we should invade France and send their people to the death camps.... I mean the HAPPY Camps where they will be so happy no one will ever see or hear from them agian.... EVER!:)

Now I know I'm going to beat this cancer, if for no other reason than to just stick around so I can piss you off! Mwahahahahahaha! :p

http://www.triton.nu/albums/pics/aw_jeez_not_this_shit_again.thumb.jpg

This further confirms my beleif that NS is the repository for AIMbots who decide that a life of spamming porn sites to each other is pointless.

Maybe it's just me, but our current generation has lost most, if not all it's faith in christianity. I speak of the 16-28 year old population of course. We've got loads of idiotic elderly and people in their 40's who still believe. But wonder of all wonders, they'll all be dead in a matter of years. This thread is to celebrate the death of illogical christianity in the United States. No one my age believes in creationism. No one my age thinks it's right to prevent gay people from getting marriage rights (okay, this isn't true, but the people who think it's okay are dropping like flies). Everyone believes in Evolution. Almost all the college students I know are atheists or agnostics. Most really just don't care. I am feeling optimistic, that America and the Western Hemisphere have finally thrown off the clutches of religion, and are now able to look towards a reasonable, logical future. Thoughts?

Hmmm, I don't think Creationism is dead, I do believe that there is a whole hord of Creationists out there, and they're breeding. With Bush and the Pope on about teaching ID, it's unlikely that Creationists are going to die off any time soon.

I will agree though that there is a distinct lack of faith in God out there - congregations are shrinking, people have lost respect for the clergy, and sadly, for each other. I still believe, I'm not a kook who'll try to convert you, but I know I'm not alone when I need help. I don't go to Church, I lost all respect for the Catholic Church a long time ago, but you don't need a building to express your faith...

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_rate.htm

This mentions what is going on, I think the biggest change between modern and past church attendance were what church was for. Nowadays, church for the young is a place to socialize. And even this is dying off. I'll find some more stuff.

http://www.rotation.org/barna-report.htm

And what are the odds that JEB Bush will rig... I mean "win" the 08 election and declare his family desended from Christ and that they have the Divine Right to become the first Imperial Family of the Christian Imperium of America and that we should invade France and send their people to the death camps.... I mean the HAPPY Camps where they will be so happy no one will ever see or hear from them agian.... EVER!:)

Ssshhhhh, don't give them ideas!

Of course people have less faith than they used to. Times are relatively good, so they don't have a need for faith to make it through their daily lives.

When the world plunges into its next Dark Age, those empty pews will be filled.

According to the CIA factbook for 2005 76% of the US is of Christian denomination. The only other large group is listed as "other" at 10%.There is also 2% mormon 1% jews, 1% muslim.

yea, thats why over a billion ppl are christians?

yea, thats why over a billion ppl are christians?


Those numbers are declining as well http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

Islam is the new up and coming religion right now.

There are over 1.2 billion Catholics in the world. That's about 1/6 of the world population. this isn't even counting those heretical Protestants(joking:p). Sorry to say, it doesn't look like we're dying out.

Peace be with you!

There are over 1.2 billion Catholics in the world. That's about 1/6 of the world population. this isn't even counting those heretical Protestants(joking:p). Sorry to say, it doesn't look like we're dying out.

Peace be with you!


In the Western world, it seems to be the case. I know Europe will soon be abandoning christianity. America is lagging behind, but I'm betting 25 years from now, its current power will have faded away.

There are over 1.2 billion Catholics in the world. That's about 1/6 of the world population. this isn't even counting those heretical Protestants(joking:p). Sorry to say, it doesn't look like we're dying out.

Peace be with you!

Ah, but how many active and practising Catholics?!? I'm Catholic, I don't know anyone who goes to Church any more...apart from my grandparents....

I got a pretty wide view of America when I lived on a military base in Germany. Nothing but redneck Texans and crazy Alabamans. God I hate the south.

Congratulations. Your 'wide view' is from a bunch of pissed off Germans who have to deal with a bunch of Yanks who kicked their Grandfathers' asses.

And that has to be the most ignorant post about the South I have seen in a long time. For one, you got it backwards. TEXANS are crazy as we believe that we are still our own country and the Alabamans are the rednecks.

God I hate stupid Yanks.

why does not going to church mean you're not religious? i don't go, but consider myself very devout. i just don't go. my parents and family are the same way. at weddings and such, i still take the Eucharist and believe it transubstantiates. i try to pray at least weekly for those in need, and try to follow the True Path.

The kingdom of God cannot be found in halls of stone, created by the hadns of men. But it is in you, and all about you. Lift a stone and you will find me; split a piece of wood and I am there.
-Stigmata "Gospel of Christ"

Peace be with you

Maybe it's just me, but our current generation has lost most, if not all it's faith in christianity. I speak of the 16-28 year old population of course. We've got loads of idiotic elderly and people in their 40's who still believe. But wonder of all wonders, they'll all be dead in a matter of years. This thread is to celebrate the death of illogical christianity in the United States. No one my age believes in creationism. No one my age thinks it's right to prevent gay people from getting marriage rights (okay, this isn't true, but the people who think it's okay are dropping like flies). Everyone believes in Evolution. Almost all the college students I know are atheists or agnostics. Most really just don't care. I am feeling optimistic, that America and the Western Hemisphere have finally thrown off the clutches of religion, and are now able to look towards a reasonable, logical future. Thoughts?
While I can't claim to be a Christian, I would never celebrate the death of a religion whose original goals were to teach love and acceptance (I am speaking of Jesus the man here, not his followers). To say that the religion is dying without any research, statistics, or polls is an uninformed statement, as well.

Religions do not have to act as clutches -- for many religious people, their faith is far from a set of villainous clutches, but a good guiding standard as to how they should treat other people and behave as a human being. This is the case with many Christians. The only sort of demise of Christian religion I wish to see take place is that of so-called "right-wing evangelical" extremist Christians, who base their beliefs and lives around hate, divisiveness, hypocrisy, and double standards; their beliefs and practices are clearly far removed from anything Jesus would have condoned.

Christianity as a whole, however, is not a bad thing, in my opinion. I can only hope that the teachings of love and acceptance taught by Jesus continue on through the ages in the United States, regardless of whether or not Christianity is still a prominent form of worship in the years to come.

While I can't claim to be a Christian, I would never celebrate the death of a religion whose originalgoals were to teach love and acceptance (I am speaking of Jesus the man here, not his followers). To say that the religion is dying without any research, statistics, or polls is an uninformed statement, as well.

Religions do not have to act as clutches -- for many religious people, their faith is far from a set of villainous clutches, but a good guiding standard as to how they should treat other people and behave as a human being. This is the case with many Christians. The only sort of demise of Christian religion I wish to see take place is that of so-called "right-wing evangelical" extremist Christians, who base their beliefs and lives around hate, divisiveness, hypocrisy, and double standards; their beliefs and practices are clearly far removed from anything Jesus would have condoned.

Christianity as a whole, however, is not a bad thing, in my opinion. I can only hope that the teachings of love and acceptance taught by Jesus continue on through the ages in the United States, regardless of whether or not Christianity is still a prominent form of worship in the years to come.


I agree.
I don't think you can limit these traits to Christianity alone, all religions teach similarly - that live your life as a good person, and you reap the rewards in the next life.

Does anyone else believe that there is a little too much research going into trying to find out the real story of Jesus and exactly what happened, and not leaving enough of it to faith? Does it matter? I mean, the general message that's gotten across from the teachings of Jesus is what matters most, does it really matter that he wasn't born in the middle of winter? (Christmas is actually celebrated in the dead of winter because it apparently made it easier to convert pagans to Christianity if the holiday festivals were at similar times, and Christmas was timed to coincide with the Winter Solstice Festival, which was originally just to cheer everyone up when it was cold and miserable outside. Apparently it's believed that Jesus was actually born in August, 7BC)

Maybe it's just me, but our current generation has lost most, if not all it's faith in christianity. I speak of the 16-28 year old population of course. We've got loads of idiotic elderly and people in their 40's who still believe. But wonder of all wonders, they'll all be dead in a matter of years. This thread is to celebrate the death of illogical christianity in the United States. No one my age believes in creationism. No one my age thinks it's right to prevent gay people from getting marriage rights (okay, this isn't true, but the people who think it's okay are dropping like flies). Everyone believes in Evolution. Almost all the college students I know are atheists or agnostics. Most really just don't care. I am feeling optimistic, that America and the Western Hemisphere have finally thrown off the clutches of religion, and are now able to look towards a reasonable, logical future. Thoughts?


You've obvously never been to North Dakota

Firstly, I am a tad pissed about the comments about the South.(I live in GA) I don't blame you, though, you damn yankees just don't know any better. Most rednecks and hillbillies live west of the Mississippi river, both in the north, the south, and smack in between.

About the original argument, I think that hard-core christianity is on the decline and that this will lead to the fall of the whole religion, eventually. People take it a little less seriously than they used to. this has been happening for a long time. How many christian today would join a violent crusade? Or burn someone alive for practicing witchcraft? Some may argue that these are not the acts of a christian. But when you strip away the fear, the superstition, and the propaganda people will start to realize that there really isn't much there.

Hail Satan, adversary of abstinence!

Those numbers are declining as well http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

Islam is the new up and coming religion right now.
And Islam is preferable to Christianity how?
Yeah, I know you didn’t say it, but I perceived a positive tone. You’ll probably just lie and say you didn’t mean it that way. Whatever.

I can probably say with 99.999~ percent confidence that Christianity, while it may and probably will dwindle, will never die out. Anyway, I know at least that it won't die out while I'm around. :)

Yay for faith in the unseen!

Even if Christianity did die out, it would be subject to the rule of retro: give anything 20 years and it will come back in style.

I can probably say with 99.999~ percent confidence that Christianity, while it may and probably will dwindle, will never die out. Anyway, I know at least that it won't die out while I'm around. :)

Yay for faith in the unseen!

The Roman emperors would have said the same thing about there religion and look were they are. I know there are a few neopagans out there, but have you ever met one? They're fuckin' nuts! I think the Caesars would have preferred it to die out rather than be carried on by those wack-jobs.

Hail Satan, adversary of abstinence!

And Islam is preferable to Christianity how?
Yeah, I know you didn’t say it, but I perceived a positive tone. You’ll probably just lie and say you didn’t mean it that way. Whatever.

You must understand that the left's loathing of Christianity comes from nothing except that it is exists where they live, and it restricts certain forms of behavior. When Europe finally turns Muslim, as I believe it will in the course of the next century, they will be just as anti-Islamic as they are anti-Christian now.

Of course, seeing as how Wahhabists have this "thing" about cutting the head off anyone who disagrees with them...

The Roman emperors would have said the same thing about there religion and look were they are. I know there are a few neopagans out there, but have you ever met one? They're fuckin' nuts! I think the Caesars would have preferred it to die out rather than be carried on by those wack-jobs.

Hail Satan, adversary of abstinence!

A Satanist calling pagans nuts. That's fairly amusing.

Maybe it's just me, but our current generation has lost most, if not all it's faith in christianity. I speak of the 16-28 year old population of course. We've got loads of idiotic elderly and people in their 40's who still believe. But wonder of all wonders, they'll all be dead in a matter of years. This thread is to celebrate the death of illogical christianity in the United States. No one my age believes in creationism. No one my age thinks it's right to prevent gay people from getting marriage rights (okay, this isn't true, but the people who think it's okay are dropping like flies). Everyone believes in Evolution. Almost all the college students I know are atheists or agnostics. Most really just don't care. I am feeling optimistic, that America and the Western Hemisphere have finally thrown off the clutches of religion, and are now able to look towards a reasonable, logical future. Thoughts?
As a Christian who believes in evolution via an ID-like mentality (but doesn't confuse ID with science, as it isn't) and thinks gay marriage is okay, I'm not quite sure where I fit in your New World Order. Ah well.

I don't see Christianity dying altogether. I do see it shrinking and losing political power, and that's a good thing. The fundies and the armchair crusaders will largely move on once there's no reward for being a Christian -- or at least, no earthly reward ;) -- and we can have our apolitical religion of peace back.

You must understand that the left's loathing of Christianity comes from nothing except that it is exists where they live, and it restricts certain forms of behavior. When Europe finally turns Muslim, as I believe it will in the course of the next century, they will be just as anti-Islamic as they are anti-Christian now.

Of course, seeing as how Wahhabists have this "thing" about cutting the head off anyone who disagrees with them...


What sort of behaviour are you reffering to, pray tell?

A Satanist calling pagans nuts. That's fairly amusing.

What can I say? I hate people who cling to idiotic beliefs and ridiculous rituals. I especially hate those damned wiccans. They're like the catholics of paganism.(Edit: The pagan's one redeeming quality is that they tend to throw awesome parties, if you can sit though all the prayers and "Blessed be's".)

Note: Satanists also have ridiculous rituals, but we admit they're bullshit that we made up.

Hail Satan, adversary of abstinence!

There have been several refferences to Islam in this post. My opinion on how people practice Islam in Islamic nations and how Christians practice Christiananity in Christian nations is nearly the same. While spending lots of time in Muslim nations I have noticed that the majority of people don't pray 5 times a day. The majority don't go to the mosque on Friday. They break rules of the muslim faith almost as quickly as Christians do. So humans will be humans I say. This is just an observation and not to critize one religion or another.

Now while in Saudi I did notice that the poorer a person was the more likely they were to be more religious and take it seriously. I found that in Kuwait, Bahrain and Morocco to be true. Wasn't in Iraq long enough to tell what they did there. I also can't help to notice that similarity in Christian nations too. So you may imply the same logic to Islam as to Christiananity being a religion that is "dying" out. Which if you really think about it. It's foolish logic.

Also one other observation I have made over my lifetime. The older one gets the more religious one tends to be. Going to church or the mosque aside. Now I believe thats a natural tendency for one to make peace with there maker the closer they get to the end.

That's funny... people probably said the same thing during the 60s, when america was tuning in, turning on, and dropping out... and making love, not war. Now those same people, who claimed things would be different than when they were kids, are the adults which have turned to christianity and morality, much as their parents did. Every generation says they'll be different from the previous one. Then they grow up, take a good hard look at reality, and realize they're the same.

With all this "teen angst" which today's youth thinks they're inventing, but has been in reality playing out in much the same way since at least the 50s (go rent Rebel without a Cause, and ignore the 50s style lingo and dress, and see if it rings any bells), i'd like to see the numbers for christian youth groups. After all, while the SDS and the hippies gathered media attention and were giong to change the world, you know, for the better, man, can you think of what the largest student group was on American campuses?


The Campus Crusade for Christ.

This new wave of anti-establishment rage seems kinda like the Gen Xers dancing around to their rage against the machine, with its socialist overtones, in backlash against the yuppie 80s and corporate america... You remember Generation X, right? The same people who are now beginning to fill those same corporate ranks as the other iconic anti-establishment generation, the children of the 60s begin to retire. Different band, same tune. Everyone fights the power... until it's passed to them.

Everyone fights the power... until it's passed to them.


Absolutely true.....

That's funny... people probably said the same thing during the 60s, when america was tuning in, turning on, and dropping out... and making love, not war. Now those same people, who claimed things would be different than when they were kids, are the adults which have turned to christianity and morality, much as their parents did. Every generation says they'll be different from the previous one. Then they grow up, take a good hard look at reality, and realize they're the same.

With all this "teen angst" which today's youth thinks they're inventing, but has been in reality playing out in much the same way since at least the 50s (go rent Rebel without a Cause, and ignore the 50s style lingo and dress, and see if it rings any bells), i'd like to see the numbers for christian youth groups. After all, while the SDS and the hippies gathered media attention and were giong to change the world, you know, for the better, man, can you think of what the largest student group was on American campuses?


The Campus Crusade for Christ.

This new wave of anti-establishment rage seems kinda like the Gen Xers dancing around to their rage against the machine, with its socialist overtones, in backlash against the yuppie 80s and corporate america... You remember Generation X, right? The same people who are now beginning to fill those same corporate ranks as the other iconic anti-establishment generation, the children of the 60s begin to retire. Different band, same tune. Everyone fights the power... until it's passed to them.


/signed :)

Maybe it's just me, but our current generation has lost most, if not all it's faith in christianity. I speak of the 16-28 year old population of course. We've got loads of idiotic elderly and people in their 40's who still believe. But wonder of all wonders, they'll all be dead in a matter of years. This thread is to celebrate the death of illogical christianity in the United States. No one my age believes in creationism. No one my age thinks it's right to prevent gay people from getting marriage rights (okay, this isn't true, but the people who think it's okay are dropping like flies). Everyone believes in Evolution. Almost all the college students I know are atheists or agnostics. Most really just don't care. I am feeling optimistic, that America and the Western Hemisphere have finally thrown off the clutches of religion, and are now able to look towards a reasonable, logical future. Thoughts?


Funny as how Christianity dies off, things in the world get chaotic

That's funny... people probably said the same thing during the 60s, when america was tuning in, turning on, and dropping out... and making love, not war. Now those same people, who claimed things would be different than when they were kids, are the adults which have turned to christianity and morality, much as their parents did. Every generation says they'll be different from the previous one. Then they grow up, take a good hard look at reality, and realize they're the same.

With all this "teen angst" which today's youth thinks they're inventing, but has been in reality playing out in much the same way since at least the 50s (go rent Rebel without a Cause, and ignore the 50s style lingo and dress, and see if it rings any bells), i'd like to see the numbers for christian youth groups. After all, while the SDS and the hippies gathered media attention and were giong to change the world, you know, for the better, man, can you think of what the largest student group was on American campuses?


The Campus Crusade for Christ.

This new wave of anti-establishment rage seems kinda like the Gen Xers dancing around to their rage against the machine, with its socialist overtones, in backlash against the yuppie 80s and corporate america... You remember Generation X, right? The same people who are now beginning to fill those same corporate ranks as the other iconic anti-establishment generation, the children of the 60s begin to retire. Different band, same tune. Everyone fights the power... until it's passed to them.

Power isn't passed, it's taken. The problem is that the power is imprinted with the mark of it's former owners. Most people let themselves be bent like play-dough. It's sad, but it won't stop me from trying to forge a few of my fellow young people in iron.

Hail Satan, adversary of abstinence!

I personally don't think Christianity will die out. At the moment, its wide-spread, diverse, and still a factor to be reckoned with.
However, I do think and hope that Christianity will cease to be propagaded by fundamentalist and will no longer play any role whatsoever in politics. It doesn't belong there, be that as a justification for war or as an attempt to indoctrinate children.
That already happened in Europe (for the most part)... no politician could keep his face here trying to talk about religion in anything but a purely private context. I hope that America will eventually take the same path to become a really secular and enlightened place. It already is on paper, I understand, but there are some facts, opinions and political occurences that make me doubt...

Nobody needs to prevent anybody from practicing religion, ever, yet no religion should be officially encouraged.
People need religion, but they should have an open, multifaced society that enables them to find a religion fitting their needs.

You've never been to Michigan.

Christianity is alive and well, and here is why:

While Christianity hit its estimated peak membership sometime in the 60's to 70's or whatnot, and other religions have gained more members, its clearly not because Christianity is dying out. Rather, the fact that there are less Chrisitians in the world today, percentage wise, than 30 some years ago, is a FACT that more people are truely Christian.

What we need are more cafeteria Christians, like myself, that are willing to become completely and utterly sexually exhausted to bolster the ranks of Jesus and God, the Father. Whose with me?

Maybe it's just me, but our current generation has lost most, if not all it's faith in christianity. I speak of the 16-28 year old population of course. We've got loads of idiotic elderly and people in their 40's who still believe. But wonder of all wonders, they'll all be dead in a matter of years. This thread is to celebrate the death of illogical christianity in the United States. No one my age believes in creationism. No one my age thinks it's right to prevent gay people from getting marriage rights (okay, this isn't true, but the people who think it's okay are dropping like flies). Everyone believes in Evolution. Almost all the college students I know are atheists or agnostics. Most really just don't care. I am feeling optimistic, that America and the Western Hemisphere have finally thrown off the clutches of religion, and are now able to look towards a reasonable, logical future. Thoughts?

You have a long way to go to catch up with Europe.

In the Western world, it seems to be the case. I know Europe will soon be abandoning christianity. America is lagging behind, but I'm betting 25 years from now, its current power will have faded away.
hmm well in the UK and scandinavia, only around 10%* of people count themselves as religious at all, yet alone christian or as church-goers, which is great. sadly its not the case for the rest of continental europe** (the non-classically protestant areas) as the catholic church still seems to have much more of a hold on people's lives, and moreso the further south you go (just like the states, eh? :D)

* a figure usually battered about by the media
** an impression given by the media, again, and also by my own trips there. wish i could be bothered to find some supporting data...

i do so wish it were the case as per your OP that christianity were dying out in the States... but its just not true. from a british perspective, it almost seems as if being religious/a christian is fashionable in some way over there - which accounts for the rising numbers of christian kids you have. sad stuff :(

Everyone fights the power... until it's passed to them.
Exactly. Over the years, I have laughed my ass off at the ex-hippie babyboomers as they went through these changes, watching all their "anti-establishment" rhetoric flip as they became the establishment. Funny as hell!

i do so wish it were the case as per your OP that christianity were dying out in the States... but its just not true. from a british perspective, it almost seems as if being religious/a christian is fashionable in some way over there - which accounts for the rising numbers of christian kids you have. sad stuff :(
Newsweek recently had a huge article bantering on about how 18-25ish year olds were rediscovering a more conservative religion that their parents.

"Vatican II! Hogwash!" Anyhow, your right! Relgion is fashionable in the US, while I am not quite sure elsewhere. I met the first person in my life (I was in Europe at the time) to say that he was not Christian. I didn't know how to respond. I was confounded.

Power isn't passed, it's taken. The problem is that the power is imprinted with the mark of it's former owners. Most people let themselves be bent like play-dough. It's sad, but it won't stop me from trying to forge a few of my fellow young people in iron.

Hail Satan, adversary of abstinence!
It'll be interesting to see what becomes of you in a few years. I surely hope I'm still around to see it. :D

hmm well in the UK and scandinavia, only around 10%* of people count themselves as religious at all, yet alone christian or as church-goers, which is great. sadly its not the case for the rest of continental europe** (the non-classically protestant areas) as the catholic church still seems to have much more of a hold on people's lives, and moreso the further south you go (just like the states, eh? :D)

* a figure usually battered about by the media
** an impression given by the media, again, and also by my own trips there. wish i could be bothered to find some supporting data...

i do so wish it were the case as per your OP that christianity were dying out in the States... but its just not true. from a british perspective, it almost seems as if being religious/a christian is fashionable in some way over there - which accounts for the rising numbers of christian kids you have. sad stuff :(


I agree, there's a lot a variation and contradictions in Europe. The UK has an state-established Christian church yet in practical terms it's one of the most secular countries in the world. There are possibly more practising muslims than active church-goers there.

Whilst in Spain and Italy, for example, the Catholic church still maintains an insidious influence. In setting the text of the failed EU constitution, a huge effort was needed to ensure the phrase 'Christian Heritage' was absent from the preamble, fighting hard lobbying from the Catholic countries.

The descent of America into some kind of theocracy would be especially sad since it was founded on an ideal to escape from the blood-soaked religious strife of Europe.

Maybe it's just me, but our current generation has lost most, if not all it's faith in christianity. I speak of the 16-28 year old population of course. We've got loads of idiotic elderly and people in their 40's who still believe. But wonder of all wonders, they'll all be dead in a matter of years. This thread is to celebrate the death of illogical christianity in the United States. No one my age believes in creationism. No one my age thinks it's right to prevent gay people from getting marriage rights (okay, this isn't true, but the people who think it's okay are dropping like flies). Everyone believes in Evolution. Almost all the college students I know are atheists or agnostics. Most really just don't care. I am feeling optimistic, that America and the Western Hemisphere have finally thrown off the clutches of religion, and are now able to look towards a reasonable, logical future. Thoughts?
Two words:

I wish.

"Vatican II! Hogwash!" Anyhow, your right! Relgion is fashionable in the US, while I am not quite sure elsewhere. I met the first person in my life (I was in Europe at the time) to say that he was not Christian. I didn't know how to respond. I was confounded.

The usual response is: Good for you! Neither am I.

The usual response is: Good for you! Neither am I.
I'll have to be quicker on my feet next time, and get out of line at the Christian Buffet.

Maybe it's just me, but our current generation has lost most, if not all it's faith in christianity. I speak of the 16-28 year old population of course. We've got loads of idiotic elderly and people in their 40's who still believe. But wonder of all wonders, they'll all be dead in a matter of years. This thread is to celebrate the death of illogical christianity in the United States. No one my age believes in creationism. No one my age thinks it's right to prevent gay people from getting marriage rights (okay, this isn't true, but the people who think it's okay are dropping like flies). Everyone believes in Evolution. Almost all the college students I know are atheists or agnostics. Most really just don't care. I am feeling optimistic, that America and the Western Hemisphere have finally thrown off the clutches of religion, and are now able to look towards a reasonable, logical future. Thoughts?

You can't speak for all of them....

70% of my church is below the age of 30.

"Idoitic elderly" is extemely disrespectful... It shows lack of compitency in any arguement you could make.... Don't even know why I bothered to read through the rest of the dribble.

Gay marriage, is not the end-all issue of all Christians [I'm an example]
Most christians believe in evolution [another example]...
Most college students I know are neither atheists nor agnostics [though, I do know some]... But then again, I have more than likely been exposed to far more people than you have...

You're optimism, is based off of your sheltered life, and lack of knowledge....

But then again, you know what they say... Ignorance is bliss..... So you must have tons of bliss right now...

No one my age believes in creationism. No one my age thinks it's right to prevent gay people from getting marriage rights (okay, this isn't true, but the people who think it's okay are dropping like flies). Everyone believes in Evolution.

When you speak in absolutes you are always wrong.






* yes I know that is a paradox, yes it is still true, yes I know that if it is true then it can't be true, but it still is true, and boys and girls that is why it is a paradox.

You can't speak for all of them....

70% of my church is below the age of 30.

How sad.

"Idoitic elderly" is extemely disrespectful... It shows lack of compitency in any arguement you could make.... Don't even know why I bothered to read through the rest of the dribble.

Gay marriage, is not the end-all issue of all Christians [I'm an example]
Most christians believe in evolution [another example]...
Most college students I know are neither atheists nor agnostics [though, I do know some]... But then again, I have more than likely been exposed to far more people than you have...

Again, how sad. You would think college students would have more sense.

You're optimism, is based off of your sheltered life, and lack of knowledge....

But then again, you know what they say... Ignorance is bliss..... So you must have tons of bliss right now...


I'm sure ignorance isn't bliss if it results in people believing in the fairy tales religion is based on.

That's funny... people probably said the same thing during the 60s, when america was tuning in, turning on, and dropping out... and making love, not war. Now those same people, who claimed things would be different than when they were kids, are the adults which have turned to christianity and morality, much as their parents did. Every generation says they'll be different from the previous one. Then they grow up, take a good hard look at reality, and realize they're the same.

With all this "teen angst" which today's youth thinks they're inventing, but has been in reality playing out in much the same way since at least the 50s (go rent Rebel without a Cause, and ignore the 50s style lingo and dress, and see if it rings any bells), i'd like to see the numbers for christian youth groups. After all, while the SDS and the hippies gathered media attention and were giong to change the world, you know, for the better, man, can you think of what the largest student group was on American campuses?


The Campus Crusade for Christ.

This new wave of anti-establishment rage seems kinda like the Gen Xers dancing around to their rage against the machine, with its socialist overtones, in backlash against the yuppie 80s and corporate america... You remember Generation X, right? The same people who are now beginning to fill those same corporate ranks as the other iconic anti-establishment generation, the children of the 60s begin to retire. Different band, same tune. Everyone fights the power... until it's passed to them.

No kidding, it's a repititious pattern, and when we're young we did not get it...

I'm a Corporate-Gen X'er.... the child of Yuppified-Hippies....

Your a rebel when you're young.... And along with experience, become a newer-version of your parents when older...

Two Rules of thumb:
1. "Rebel" is a fad... You'll grow out of it....
2. A university does not represent a cross section of a nations beliefs [or what it will believe in the future for that matter] (considering most people there do not have any real-world experience, and are still pretty much sowing their wild-oats).....

Yep, everyone fights The Man(tm)..... Till that day they find out they have become The Man(tm)....

How sad.

Yes, you are...

How sad.
Strage, as I couldn't be happier.

Again, how sad. You would think college students would have more sense.
I'm sure they do. They have enough sense to decide what appears to be more truthful to them. That's not sad at all, so long as they made it their own choice.

I'm sure ignorance isn't bliss if it results in people believing in the fairy tales religion is based on.
Assuming all religions have fairies, right? ;)

I guess it is as Nietzsche said, God is dead.

Assuming all religions have fairies, right? ;)
If only! Especially if the fairies breathed fire...or if they were zombie fairies with chainsaws for arms...

{snip}I am feeling optimistic, that America and the Western Hemisphere have finally thrown off the clutches of religion, and are now able to look towards a reasonable, logical future. Thoughts?
"Pie Iesu domine, dona eis requiem."

If only! Especially if the fairies breathed fire...or if they were zombie fairies with chainsaws for arms...

That'd be freaking awesome!

"And on the eigth day, God fashioned in his own pleasure the winged fairies. He set upon himself to equip them with the breath of the sun, and those who died would arise again with moving blades upon their forearms.

And Ash did say, 'Holy shit, God! Why?!'"

"Pie Iesu domine, dona eis requiem."

*whaps himself in the face with a board*

Oh...sorry. Habit.

That'd be freaking awesome!

"And on the eigth day, God fashioned in his own pleasure the winged fairies. He set upon himself to equip them with the breath of the sun, and those who died would arise again with moving blades upon their forearms.

And Ash did say, 'Holy shit, God! Why?!'"
Now there's a Testament I can get behind!

No kidding, it's a repititious pattern, and when we're young we did not get it...

I'm a Corporate-Gen X'er.... the child of Yuppified-Hippies....

Your a rebel when you're young.... And along with experience, become a newer-version of your parents when older...

Two Rules of thumb:
1. "Rebel" is a fad... You'll grow out of it....
2. A university does not represent a cross section of a nations beliefs [or what it will believe in the future for that matter] (considering most people there do not have any real-world experience, and are still pretty much sowing their wild-oats).....

Yep, everyone fights The Man(tm)..... Till that day they find out they have become The Man(tm)....


I went to a local outdoor concert here, and I thought that one of the bands was playing some rather harsh anti-emo music. So I stood and watched. The crowd consisted of young men and women who by their torn clothing, lack of bathing, and general appearance looked to me like social outcasts or social rebels.

It was about 2000 people, and I live in a very small town.

Halfway through the second song, I realized that the band was singing Christian themed songs, but I'm not sure most people would recognize it without listening intently to the lyrics. Most of the youth knew all about the band, and were regular fans.

Among youth, being Christian when your parents are atheists is an act of rebellion. Unlike atheism, most religions offer an answer to the question. You may not agree with the answer, but at least you're given one.

Nope its just you. There has been kind of a resurgence of Christianity in some areas in the US, and it by far isn't dead. One of the the things that caused the Democrates to loose the last election was their underestimate of the Christian voting block.

Not really. There's a bit of a myth that a lot of people voted on "moral principles" and since Bush won, then he must have gotten the "morality vote."

Most of the people who voted on "moral principles" voted for Kerry, and it's a term that's so broad that it doesn't just mean Christianity as it has been interpreted to mean. Being anti- gay marriage is a moral principle, but so is being pro-gay marriage. Being against war in Iraq is a moral principle, and hypothetically, so could being pro-Iraq war, but it's really an economic principle. It is precisly because Right-Wing Christianity is on the decline that its voting bloc has become so consolidated. When any social, or political group sees the writing on the walls like that, their tendency is to circle the wagons. That's how fascism gets started. Cetralized control of people scared enough about the loss of their culture that they hand their culture over to a power-mad dictator like Mousollini or Robertson.

I got a pretty wide view of America when I lived on a military base in Germany.
Oh, yeah, THAT'S exposure. Same as me saying I know all there is to know about the Phillipenes because I spent two weeks getting soused in Olongapo! If THAT'S what you're basing your experiance on, thou art truely naive, and foolish. Try getting around a little more, and don't worry, the South hates you too.
Christianity is dying out? Doubt it.

Oh, yeah, THAT'S exposure. Same as me saying I know all there is to know about the Phillipenes because I spent two weeks getting soused in Olongapo! If THAT'S what you're basing your experiance on, thou art truely naive, and foolish. Try getting around a little more, and don't worry, the South hates you too.
Christianity is dying out? Doubt it.

I think that the closer parallel would be sitting for a few hours in the international traveller's lounge at Heathrow (instead of exiting passport control) and saying that you've been to the UK.

What about the young people? The idiotic elderly will all be dead 30 years from now, and our current generation is falling away from god just as fast as their parents are trying to bring them to church. I don't know what it's like in some parts of the country, but I find the trend to be that very few young people I know take christianity seriously.

I never said it was dead, I said it was dying. And this is the truth. I'll drag up some church attendance figures to show.

Just a suggestion from a friendly christian-going-ons monitor. You might want to observe the flux and flow of Christianity a little little bit more. Then you'll see whats really going.

i think what is happenning is that believing is leaving most people but pooling mighty deep in others, in other words there are less christians, but the ones that are there are true blue fucking insane ones. But they too will eventually inbreed out of existence. We always follow europe in trends by a few decades so this was predictabl since the seventies at least. They killed god in the nineteenth century with nietzsche, were just behind a bit

i think what is happenning is that believing is leaving most people but pooling mighty deep in others, in other words there are less christians, but the ones that are there are true blue fucking insane ones. But they too will eventually inbreed out of existence. We always follow europe in trends by a few decades so this was predictabl since the seventies at least. They killed god in the nineteenth century with nietzsche, were just behind a bit

I should make and wear a shirt that states "True, Blue, and Fucking Insane!". That should be fun.

I think that the closer parallel would be sitting for a few hours in the international traveller's lounge at Heathrow (instead of exiting passport control) and saying that you've been to the UK.
Absolutely correct sir. BTW I will buying some Sierra 150gr .311 dia tomorrow.....

I'm sure this has been mentioned, but I think Mods has gotten a little excited with this. Very often people grow more conservative as they age, and the link between neoconservatism and American Trostkyism [via Max Shactman] is well documented. Many years ago, the die-hard right-wing politicians that we all know [and many of us depise] were, in their youth, leftists just like you. This tendancy is, as I explained in another thread some time ago, one of the main reasons why I'm so hostile to young, idealistic leftists [you know who you are].

Whether or not these people actually cross over into the philosophical morass that is Christianity is another story. Unfortunately, you can't be elected to office in this country if you're an athiest so every politician in office has to at least make a show of it. Hopefully that will change but only if we're intelligent enough to catch ourselves before we get too carried away.

Religion has been been on something of a decline since the Renaissance: if I were to tell you that "I don't give a shit what the Pope says" 600 years ago, those might as well have been my last words. So while I agree that remarkable progress towards reason has been made, it hasn't been made by our generation: we're just as capable of destroying that progress as countless generations have before us.

I really am sorry for quoting the first page but damn, I just had too...

God I hate the south.

Irony ++ :D

The idiotic elderly will all be dead 30 years from now

Are they idiotic because they believe in something you don't? I think you will find that some of the greatest thinkers in history have also believed in some form of religion, with varying degrees of fervour.

Are they idiotic because they believe in something you don't? I think you will find that some of the greatest thinkers in history have also believed in some form of religion, with varying degrees of fervour.

What you say is correct - however....

The problem is that people tend to have to conform in order to rise to the top, and this is true in the scientific community as well as the rest of society.

Would those same people have been religious if they were born and raised today?

Coming from neither the South or North of America I would like to say that in some ways yes the Christian population is being reduced in some areas but otherwise in other parts of the world christianity christianity is still strong. On principle I would like to completely oppose thisnotion that Christianity is dead, History has shown that you cannot kill it, many have tied to kill it but i assure you that AT THE WORST christianity is dormant but I assure you that it will be back.

Britain got rid of Christendom a long time ago. :D

Coming from neither the South or North of America I would like to say that in some ways yes the Christian population is being reduced in some areas but otherwise in other parts of the world christianity christianity is still strong. On principle I would like to completely oppose thisnotion that Christianity is dead, History has shown that you cannot kill it, many have tied to kill it but i assure you that AT THE WORST christianity is dormant but I assure you that it will be back.
Agreed. Christianity has been proclaimed dead almost as much as rock. Every generation for the past 150-200 years, someone has come along proclaiming that Christianity is dead/is dying/will be dead in "X" number of years. Faith systems like Christianity don't die easily; they have too much of an impact on too many people.

Maybe it's just me, but our current generation has lost most, if not all it's faith in christianity. I speak of the 16-28 year old population of course. We've got loads of idiotic elderly and people in their 40's who still believe. But wonder of all wonders, they'll all be dead in a matter of years. This thread is to celebrate the death of illogical christianity in the United States. No one my age believes in creationism. No one my age thinks it's right to prevent gay people from getting marriage rights (okay, this isn't true, but the people who think it's okay are dropping like flies). Everyone believes in Evolution. Almost all the college students I know are atheists or agnostics. Most really just don't care. I am feeling optimistic, that America and the Western Hemisphere have finally thrown off the clutches of religion, and are now able to look towards a reasonable, logical future. Thoughts?

Firstly, it's true that creationism is mostly gone but that's only because the Church stopped supporting it. The Church now believes in which says that the world was created through evolution but that God controlled it. Secondly as for the young people losing faith. I am 17 and am a practicing Catholic i go to mass every Sunday and see at least 15 other teenagers there every week. I used to go to a Catholic high school and know that at least 90% of the students there were practicing Catholics as well (there were about 1100 students there too). I attend a public school now and know that 25% of the student body are practicing Catholics. So dont tell me that Catholocism isnt getting new followers. It may not be as popular as it used to be but in no way is it going away.

Maybe it's just me, but our current generation has lost most, if not all it's faith in christianity. I speak of the 16-28 year old population of course. We've got loads of idiotic elderly and people in their 40's who still believe. But wonder of all wonders, they'll all be dead in a matter of years. This thread is to celebrate the death of illogical christianity in the United States. No one my age believes in creationism. No one my age thinks it's right to prevent gay people from getting marriage rights (okay, this isn't true, but the people who think it's okay are dropping like flies). Everyone believes in Evolution. Almost all the college students I know are atheists or agnostics. Most really just don't care. I am feeling optimistic, that America and the Western Hemisphere have finally thrown off the clutches of religion, and are now able to look towards a reasonable, logical future. Thoughts?

My thoughts are that if you think the end of christianity is a good thing, posting that it is disappearing on a board where any christians can read, and be inspired to take action to save it isn't very clever. That said, christianity isn't going away any time soon.

It'll be interesting to see what becomes of you in a few years. I surely hope I'm still around to see it. :D

How many years are we talking about? Ten, twenty, fiftey? I'll be the same person I've always been.

Britain got rid of Christendom a long time ago. :D

Oh if only that was true.

Oh if only that was true.We might be officially Anglican, but our laws are anything but Christian. The few that still go to Church, from peering through windows, tend to be those on the verge of death.

Olara']Agreed. Christianity has been proclaimed dead almost as much as rock. Every generation for the past 150-200 years, someone has come along proclaiming that Christianity is dead/is dying/will be dead in "X" number of years. Faith systems like Christianity don't die easily; they have too much of an impact on too many people.

The thing is that when a religion keep changing what it believes in, as christianity has been forced to do over the last 100 or so years, does it really have any credability?

i think what is happenning is that believing is leaving most people but pooling mighty deep in others, in other words there are less christians, but the ones that are there are true blue fucking insane ones. But they too will eventually inbreed out of existence. We always follow europe in trends by a few decades so this was predictabl since the seventies at least. They killed god in the nineteenth century with nietzsche, were just behind a bit

You've got it backwards, man. there are more christians but fewer completely insane ones. People in general don't take religion as seriously as they used to, which will lead to every major religion becoming little more than a fringe cult. Sadly, this will probably take many more hundreds of years. And to the christians: You can't stop it, you can only slow it down.

We might be officially Anglican, but our laws are anything but Christian. The few that still go to Church, from peering through windows, tend to be those on the verge of death.

It is true to say that from the legal viewpoint the UK is one of the most secular countries in the world - thank the non-existant omnipotant being.

And it is also true that church attendance is at an all time low.

However, if you look at churches there are far to many young people which is a sad reflection on our education system.

The thing is that when a religion keep changing what it believes in, as christianity has been forced to do over the last 100 or so years, does it really have any credability?

What church is that? The E. Orthodox church has hardly changed in 2000 years.. I don't expect to wake up tomorrow and be told the church is changing in any way.. :rolleyes: There are non-Papist churches out there.. only a minority of Christians where I'm from are Roman Catholic.

The thing is that when a religion keep changing what it believes in, as christianity has been forced to do over the last 100 or so years, does it really have any credability?
The basic tenets of the Christian faith have not changed at all in over 2,000 years, as best we can tell. That doesn't sound as if it has a "credibility" problem. As a matter of fact, the felxibility of Christianity to adapt to local cultures without compromising the core beliefs is one of the religion's primary strengths.

Yeah I agree... and actually I disagree about Christianity dying out, it may be decreasing in the West but in Asia, the number of Chrisitians is increasing...

Maybe it's just me, but our current generation has lost most, if not all it's faith in christianity. I speak of the 16-28 year old population of course. We've got loads of idiotic elderly and people in their 40's who still believe. But wonder of all wonders, they'll all be dead in a matter of years. This thread is to celebrate the death of illogical christianity in the United States. No one my age believes in creationism. No one my age thinks it's right to prevent gay people from getting marriage rights (okay, this isn't true, but the people who think it's okay are dropping like flies). Everyone believes in Evolution. Almost all the college students I know are atheists or agnostics. Most really just don't care. I am feeling optimistic, that America and the Western Hemisphere have finally thrown off the clutches of religion, and are now able to look towards a reasonable, logical future. Thoughts? Try China. Or much of Africa. Or parts of Latin America.

Also, how does throwing away religion lead to reason and logic? Last time I checked, countries have never behaved reasonably.

The thing is that when a religion keep changing what it believes in, as christianity has been forced to do over the last 100 or so years, does it really have any credability? Eh? Has someone rewritten the Gospels when we weren't looking?

We might be officially Anglican, but our laws are anything but Christian. The few that still go to Church, from peering through windows, tend to be those on the verge of death. Someone once said - forget who - that "The Church of England is the Tory party at prayer".:D

No infact it's growing infact next to islam it is the second fastist growing religion and im 15 i got friends that are christian and i go to a church where 1000 people come every sunday and grows by 4 people each month and dosnt lose one go there and nearly the ENTIRe church as people my age or under 30's christianity if anything is as strounge as it ever has been and im proud to say we wont die out anytime soon we makeup 36% of the world population and in 200 years just imagine the numbers and you think it's dying why because you have friends and not one of them is christian well at school none of mine are but i go out to the city and nearly every person i pass has a cross around his/hers neck or nearly every car has a christian slogan on it's back window i bet you havent even looked have you?

Lets look at russia and see how a un'religous country survives they abandon god and they went threw eight decades of hardship and all of eastern europe suffered from ATHEIST governments.

Sorry but when have the scriptures changed they have been the same since they where written 2000 years ago just translated into our modern tongue so we dont have to learn ancient greek/hebrew so to be blunt


GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT

What you say is correct - however....

The problem is that people tend to have to conform in order to rise to the top, and this is true in the scientific community as well as the rest of society.

Would those same people have been religious if they were born and raised today?

What makes you so sure they wouldnt see your thinking to modern go back to there form of thinking back then christian where more loyal and zealous as they are today which belive it or not i admit with great sorrow.The fact is that if you were born and raised back then would you be christian?

It'll be interesting to see what becomes of you in a few years. I surely hope I'm still around to see it. :D People like that either become paranoid dictators (Mao was like an extremist Satanist - read his early writings on "great heroes") or serial killers.

And yeah, I really, really loathe "rebellion". It's so pathetic and it's never embedded in solid practicality. It never leads to anything useful and rebels can never accept reality.

The thing is that when a religion keep changing what it believes in, as christianity has been forced to do over the last 100 or so years, does it really have any credability?

The "changes" have been interpretations on the best way to govern the church:
Episcopalianism
Presbyterianism
Congregationalism

The inter-operation of the will of God and the will of man:
Pelagianism
Arminianism
Augustinianism/Calvinism

Eschatological interpretations:
Premillenialism [Historical and Dispensational]
Amillenialism
Postmillenialism
Full and Partial Preterism

And small variations in the Church's mission to the world:
Dispensational
Covenential
Dominionist

Despite differences in these few areas... All core doctrines, whether Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican, Reformed or Baptist; are identical.

The thing is that when a religion keep changing what it believes in, as christianity has been forced to do over the last 100 or so years, does it really have any credability?
What central things have changed in Christianity? Nothing. Salvation = Jesus

Kudos to above post.

The "changes" have been interpretations on the best way to govern the church:
Episcopalianism
Presbyterianism
Congregationalism

The inter-operation of the will of God and the will of man:
Pelagianism
Arminianism
Augustinianism/Calvinism

Eschatological interpretations:
Premillenialism [Historical and Dispensational]
Amillenialism
Postmillenialism
Full and Partial Preterism

And small variations in the Church's mission to the world:
Dispensational
Covenential
Dominionist

Despite differences in these few areas... All core doctrines, whether Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican, Reformed or Baptist; are identical.


Iin the last 100 years, at least, religion has had to fight a constant rearguard action against the advancew of science. The have had to abandon the belief that the earth and heaven could be created in 6 days. They have had to abandon the belief that god molded Adam out of clay and breathed life into him about 6,000 years ago.

The beliefs of the writers of the bible have been shown to be false.

What central things have changed in Christianity? Nothing. Salvation = Jesus

Kudos to above post.

Well the core changes have been to the old testiment but, as that forms the foundation of the new testiment, the whole bible stands exposed as being based on falsehoods.

What church is that?

Christianity.

The E. Orthodox church has hardly changed in 2000 years.. I don't expect to wake up tomorrow and be told the church is changing in any way.. :rolleyes: There are non-Papist churches out there.. only a minority of Christians where I'm from are Roman Catholic.

What the F has the RC church got to do with things?

Iin the last 100 years, at least, religion has had to fight a constant rearguard action against the advancew of science. The have had to abandon the belief that the earth and heaven could be created in 6 days. They have had to abandon the belief that god molded Adam out of clay and breathed life into him about 6,000 years ago.

The beliefs of the writers of the bible have been shown to be false.

Brechley, none of which have any actual bearing on the core doctrines...

Generally, Brenchley, to combat an ideology and system of beliefs, you need to understand it. Without understanding it, you're as unarmed and unprepared as a Fundamentalist preacher trying to fight science...

I can garner, from your response here, that you do not know what the "core" doctrines are... And untill you actual learn them, you'll be shooting blanks...

Eh? Has someone rewritten the Gospels when we weren't looking?

Yes, many times. The Romans did it a lot.

But please remember, the so called "gospels" are a very small part of the bible.

Lets look at russia and see how a un'religous country survives they abandon god and they went threw eight decades of hardship and all of eastern europe suffered from ATHEIST governments.

yes the problems of those countries were entirely down to the fact their governments 'abandoned god' :rolleyes:

the ancient Greeks, the cradle of civilisation, and the Roman Empire - to name but two - were great civilisations that were built and thrived without 'god' or, more specifically, christianity's god.

poof there goes your arguement.

Sorry but when have the scriptures changed they have been the same since they where written 2000 years ago just translated into our modern tongue so we dont have to learn ancient greek/hebrew so to be blunt


GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT
actually it was written around 1700 years ago... three hundered years after christ. and yet its written a style as if the writers, whoever they were (evidently not the disciples if they were around when jesus was, unless they lived a very long time), were there with mr. jesus... odd that... kinda like how one might write a story. fiction, to spell it out clearly.

anyways, get your facts straight if you're going to put so much stock into that silly litttle book

Brechley, none of which have any actual bearing on the core doctrines...

Generally, Brenchley, to combat an ideology and system of beliefs, you need to understand it. Without understanding it, you're as unarmed and unprepared as a Fundamentalist preacher trying to fight science...

I can garner, from your response here, that you do not know what the "core" doctrines are... And untill you actual learn them, you'll be shooting blanks...

Hehehehehe!!! Typical responce from the religious mob.

I was raised a christian, went to churgh every sunday, bible study - the works.

Then I grew up and put childish fairy stories behind me having seen religion for what it was - a total sham.

Well the core changes have been to the old testiment but, as that forms the foundation of the new testiment, the whole bible stands exposed as being based on falsehoods.
Flasehoods, as in oral history? Oh course there are, but don't take the Bible so literally, and you'll feel better. And the Old Testament really doesn't concern Christianity at it's core, only if you care to take the Jewish tradition that comes with it, such as the 10 Commandments and whatnot. Afterall, Jesus was a Jew, but that doesn't hinder the basic message:

Love your neighbor as yourself.

Which ultimately leads salvation, good rep with God, and all sorts of things. That is, if you buy that stuff. You certainly don't have to, you're not even meant to. I just like the idea of not having a vengeful deity waiting for me at my death, just in case. After all, that's the basic stance at the core of every faith.

Hehehehehe!!! Typical responce from the religious mob.

I was raised a christian, went to churgh every sunday, bible study - the works.

Then I grew up and put childish fairy stories behind me having seen religion for what it was - a total sham.

The how come you were not able to identify "core" doctrines?

Really, Brenchley...

What are the core doctrines of the church?

Flasehoods, as in oral history? Oh course there are, but don't take the Bible so literally, and you'll feel better. And the Old Testament really doesn't concern Christianity at it's core, only if you care to take the Jewish tradition that comes with it, such as the 10 Commandments and whatnot. Afterall, Jesus was a Jew, but that doesn't hinder the basic message:

Love your neighbor as yourself.

Which ultimately leads salvation, good rep with God, and all sorts of things. That is, if you buy that stuff. You certainly don't have to, you're not even meant to. I just like the idea of not having a vengeful deity waiting for me at my death, just in case. After all, that's the basic stance at the core of every faith.

For thousands of years the church took the bible literally. Then along came science and pointed out the lies. So what do the church do? The change their mind and say "oh no, 6 days doesn't mean 6 days of 24 hours each."

Well sorry, but if they get a basic thing like that wrong for thousands of years - how can anyone now take them seriously?

The how come you were not able to identify "core" doctrines?

Really, Brenchley...

What are the core doctrines of the church?

They seem to change depending on which way the wind blows.

They seem to change depending on which way the wind blows. Really? And there was me thinking that people were irritated with the church(es) for not changing enough.
For thousands of years the church took the bible literally. Then along came science and pointed out the lies. So what do the church do? The change their mind and say "oh no, 6 days doesn't mean 6 days of 24 hours each."

Well sorry, but if they get a basic thing like that wrong for thousands of years - how can anyone now take them seriously? So what you're saying is that if someone gets something wrong, they can never be taken seriously again. Well, that renders the entirety of human thought a joke, then.

For thousands of years the church took the bible literally. Then along came science and pointed out the lies. So what do the church do? The change their mind and say "oh no, 6 days doesn't mean 6 days of 24 hours each."
Just as I thought, you're beef is with the Roman Catholic Church. Anyhow, what's so wrong with correcting your opinion after you know better? It's just another creation myth, made by people trying to explain they're existence. Nothing new there, every culture did it.

They seem to change depending on which way the wind blows.

No, they have not, Brenchley....

There are very definitive and historically documented core doctrines which are considered "required", they have not changed.... And they are still the defacto criteria for "Christian" doctrine...

You either know them, or you do not....

If you know them, you can plainly state them here....

If not, feel free to acknowledge the fact that you do not know what they are. And I will be glad to point you to where they are located.

This thread is to celebrate the death of illogical christianity in the United States.

I dont think your up to scratch on Christian youth movements. And also you fail to point out that believing in creationisim and that Gay marriage is wrong are not nessecarly Christian trates.

Hehehehehe!!! Typical responce from the religious mob.

I was raised a christian, went to churgh every sunday, bible study - the works.

Then I grew up and put childish fairy stories behind me having seen religion for what it was - a total sham.

Can you actually prove its a total sham. That kind of statement needs lots of evidence and clarification. Can you provide those?

Can you actually prove its a total sham. That kind of statement needs lots of evidence and clarification. Can you provide those?
he can't prove that it is a total sham anymore than you can prove that it is completely true, such debates are unwinnable why even get involved?

I have tried to debate things of a debatable nature with Brenchley before and he will keep bringing it back to this same subject, why start him off there?

Iin the last 100 years, at least, religion has had to fight a constant rearguard action against the advancew of science. The have had to abandon the belief that the earth and heaven could be created in 6 days. They have had to abandon the belief that god molded Adam out of clay and breathed life into him about 6,000 years ago.

The beliefs of the writers of the bible have been shown to be false.
Sigh. You make the same error the "literalists" make, only in reverse. Genesis is an allegory, a written account of a pre-history oral tradition. It is not meant to be taken literally, either as the literal truth or as the "be all and end all" of Christian doctrine.

Look ... if God really is God, then he/she doesn't need anyone to defend her/him. God didn't sit down and take pen in hand to literally write the Bible, preferring instead to work through the intermediary of men and women to record her/his word.

Men and women are fallible, they make mistakes, they leave things out or toss things in, they do things and write things for their own reasons. Do not mistake the fallible writings of men and women, no matter how "inspired," for what many believe are the perfect words of God.

Trust me ... if she/he does exist, whether you rail against him/her or not is pretty damned irrelevant. :)

Just as I thought, you're beef is with the Roman Catholic Church. Anyhow, what's so wrong with correcting your opinion after you know better? It's just another creation myth, made by people trying to explain they're existence. Nothing new there, every culture did it.

I don't know why you refer to the RC, they are no different from others.

Correcting an opinion is one thing. Dumping major tenets is something very different. And I'm glad to note you understand that genesis is just a myth - not the word of god.

The beliefs of the writers of the bible have been shown to be false.

So, in your mind, there's nothing wrong with murder then.

Sigh. You make the same error the "literalists" make, only in reverse. Genesis is an allegory, a written account of a pre-history oral tradition. It is not meant to be taken literally, either as the literal truth or as the "be all and end all" of Christian doctrine.

But it was, for thousands of years. The literal word of god that founded three great religions.

Look ... if God really is God, then he/she doesn't need anyone to defend her/him. God didn't sit down and take pen in hand to literally write the Bible, preferring instead to work through the intermediary of men and women to record her/his word.

So you do recognize it is supposed to be the word of god.

Men and women are fallible, they make mistakes, they leave things out or toss things in, they do things and write things for their own reasons. Do not mistake the fallible writings of men and women, no matter how "inspired," for what many believe are the perfect words of God.

Well what is the bible, the ramblings of man or the word of god?

Trust me ... if she/he does exist, whether you rail against him/her or not is pretty damned irrelevant. :)

It is, if hasn't managed to show up after 15,000,000,000 years.

So, in your mind, there's nothing wrong with murder then.

Define murder.

Define murder.

Killing someone intentionally, when not as an act of war or self-defense.

Example: A man walking down the street is suddenly chopped into pieces by another man walking down the street.

Don't bother referring to laws - let's assume we're in a perfect democracy, and everyone has voted that this sort of thing is ok.

Do you see anything wrong with the situation?

Can you actually prove its a total sham. That kind of statement needs lots of evidence and clarification. Can you provide those?

Sure. Let's start with most of the bible - fairy stories. Let's continue with the church, founded by people seeking either power, money, control or all three. Then of course there is this need for blind faith as they cannot find, even after all these years, a single peice of evidence for this god figure.

Sure. Let's start with most of the bible - fairy stories.

So there's no value in treating others as you would like others to treat you?

Ok. I'll remember that whenever I run across an atheist. I'll feel free to abuse them as completely as possible within the limits of the law.

So there's no value in treating others as you would like others to treat you?

Ok. I'll remember that whenever I run across an atheist. I'll feel free to abuse them as completely as possible within the limits of the law.
the stories and words of the bible and the morality it espouses can be totally seperate things.
thinking otherwise would mean the only way to be a moral person is to be fundamentalist christian, and we all know thats not true. the morality of the bible can be found in other religions, their religious texts, and also distilled as an a-religious moral philosophy

personally i (in general) have no beef with the morality of the bible - and, by extension, what it is trying to say - but i do have problems with the theology and religious nonsense (not to mention fairytales) attached to this morality that the bible (and, necessarily, the church) brings.

the stories and words of the bible and the morality it espouses can be totally seperate things.

I'm not saying they can't be separated. I am saying that Brenchley's assertion that everything in the Bible is nonsense is not true.

Sure. Let's start with most of the bible - fairy stories. Let's continue with the church, founded by people seeking either power, money, control or all three. Then of course there is this need for blind faith as they cannot find, even after all these years, a single peice of evidence for this god figure.


I usually find myself siding with the atheists against the Christians, but not this time.

Most of the Bible is not fairy stories; it is mythology, based around events which probably did happen. (The Hebrews were probably enslaved in Egypt, there is good evidence for Kings Saul, David and Solomon, etc) Ask any Rabbi, the purpose of the Hebrew Bible in not to be taken litterally, but to use the stories to teach lessons. Mythology isn't minus fact, it's plus poetry. As for the New Testiment, there is debate on how it is supposed to be read, but it is deffinately not fairy stories. The existance of Jesus was recorded by the historian Flavius Josephus, what was actually said and did by Jesus and what was added after is very much open to debate, (see the work of the Jesus Seminar) but to call the New Testiment fairy stories is not true.

As for the proof of God, most believers have interal experiences. Let me ask you, can you prove you have free will? What evidence do you have besides your interal experience?

you're wrong. many of my friends (who are about 16) are Christian. too christian in my eyes. and, beleive me, it bugs the crap out of me.

and someone who connected loss of christianity to moral degeneration, you're also wrong. it's true, our society is becoming decadent and sick, but its not because of absense or religion. i'm not religious and i have very strong moral beliefs and ethics, so losing religion is not a victory for decadence, although pretty much everything else our society promotes is.

Actually fellas, I mentioned this article in my above post. What I'm saying, is that stupid old people are dying, and quickly, and our current generation just doesn't care about religion anymore. I got a pretty wide view of America when I lived on a military base in Germany. Nothing but redneck Texans and crazy Alabamans. God I hate the south. Anywho, even these kids rarely believed in god, and rarely went to church. A few did, but none cared extensively. My current home has a 10% church attendance rate. Meaning only 10% of the population of the City of Portland ever attends church. See? Dying off! Celebrations I say!

The facts don't back you up.

With regards to self-identification (regardless of official church membership), Christianity is the stated religious preference of about 75 to 79% of Oregonians. About 17% call themselves "nonreligious", 1.2% agnostic, and less than 1% each for Buddhists, Jews, Unitarian-Universalists, and Muslims. The largest and most influential specific churches are the Catholics and Latter-day Saints.

Love the military base comment it had me laughing like crazy.

Regards,

JMayo

Sure. Let's start with most of the bible - fairy stories. Let's continue with the church, founded by people seeking either power, money, control or all three. Then of course there is this need for blind faith as they cannot find, even after all these years, a single peice of evidence for this god figure. Please enlighten me as to how Christianity is designed to gain people power. Oh, sure, it can be twisted to do that - but looking at its tenets, one would think that it's not made for that purpose, wouldn't one?

Eh, dying off or not, it is rather cruel to celebrate the death of -any- religion, no matter how much you disagree with it.

You may not like Christianity, but I personally think it's childish and insensative to celebrate the supposed 'death' of a religion. Especially one that people have cared enough for to die over.

No, I'm not a Christian. Just a person who finds these anti-[insert religion here] threads to be utterly stupid and childish.

Sure. Let's start with most of the bible - fairy stories. Let's continue with the church, founded by people seeking either power, money, control or all three. Then of course there is this need for blind faith as they cannot find, even after all these years, a single peice of evidence for this god figure.

Evidence? There is enough to study over several lifetimes, in detail...

How about the hundreds of fulfilled Bible prophecies?
"For starters, we need to focus on fulfillments that are clear and obvious, but which liberals try to dismiss or ignore. Further, we should stress prophecies that were fulfilled well after New Testament times so that there is no question of "prediction after the event." (The charge of "prediction after the event" is the favorite ploy of biblical prophecy critics, and they will late date a text, or at least claim that a redactor inserted the "prophecy" after the fact.)" (http://www.apologetics.com/default.jsp?bodycontent=/articles/biblical_apologetics/bloom-prophecy.html)

What about the archeological evidence of the reliability of the Bible?

"the Bible is guilty until proven innocent, and a lack of outside evidence places the Biblical account in doubt.

This standard is far different from that applied to other ancient documents, even though many, if not most, have a religious element. They are considered to be accurate, unless there is evidence to show that they are not. Although it is not possible to verify every incident in the Bible, the discoveries of archaeology since the mid 1800s have demonstrated the reliability and plausibility of the Bible narrative. Here are some examples." (http://christiananswers.net//q-abr/abr-a008.html)

Evidence for God?
Does God really exist? How can we know?
If God made everything, who made God?

"The existence of God is taken for granted in the Bible. There is nowhere any argument to prove it. He who disbelieves this truth is spoken of as one devoid of understanding (Psalm 14:1).

The arguments generally adduced by theologians in proof of God's existence are:#

The a priori argument, which is the testimony afforded by reason.
#

The a posteriori argument, by which we proceed logically from the facts of experience to causes. These arguments are:

1.

The cosmological, by which it is proved that there must be a First Cause of all things, for every effect must have a cause.
2.

The teleological, or the argument from design. We see everywhere the operations of an intelligent Cause in nature.
3.

The moral argument, called also the anthropological argument, based on the moral consciousness and the history of mankind, which exhibits a moral order and purpose which can only be explained on the supposition of the existence of God. Conscience and human history testify that "verily there is a God that judgeth in the earth."

Matthew G. Easton" (http://christiananswers.net//q-aig/aig-c038.html)

And of course the age old "strike me dead, God" argument:

"Some people use this as proof that God doesn't exist: They say, "God strike me dead in five minutes." Five minutes pass and God doesn't strike them dead.

The question really is, is it a good reason not to believe in someone because they won't do what you tell them to do? In this case, is it a good reason not to believe in the Creator of the universe because he won't jump at your command.

Think about it for a moment. I can't believe in the President of the United States. Why not? Because I told him to come to dinner and he didn't come. I can't believe in a President that won't come to dinner when I tell him to. Do you see how silly that is?..." (http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5273)

I can go on and on...


"ev·i·dence Pronunciation Key (v-dns)
n.

1. A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment: The broken window was evidence that a burglary had taken place. Scientists weigh the evidence for and against a hypothesis.
2. Something indicative; an outward sign: evidence of grief on a mourner's face.
3. Law. The documentary or oral statements and the material objects admissible as testimony in a court of law." (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=evidence)

"Christianity's truthfulness is contingent on its historical veracity in the most unique sense of all religions."---apologeticsinfo.org

If it aint true, no reason to believe in it.:D

The cosmological and teleological arguments were proven logically fallacious in the time of Descartes. Or before.

Evidence? There is enough to study over several lifetimes, in detail...

How about the hundreds of fulfilled Bible prophecies?

"For starters, we need to focus on fulfillments that are clear and obvious, but which liberals try to dismiss or ignore. Further, we should stress prophecies that were fulfilled well after New Testament times so that there is no question of "prediction after the event." (The charge of "prediction after the event" is the favorite ploy of biblical prophecy critics, and they will late date a text, or at least claim that a redactor inserted the "prophecy" after the fact.)"

Was H.G.Wells a prophet? Maybe Isaac Asimov or Arthur C. Clarke? All have made lots of predictions in their fiction which have later come true. Most biblical predictions are vague or open to different interpretations. Christianity sees JC as the messiah predicted in the OT - Jews do not.

What about the archeological evidence of the reliability of the Bible?

"the Bible is guilty until proven innocent, and a lack of outside evidence places the Biblical account in doubt.

This standard is far different from that applied to other ancient documents, even though many, if not most, have a religious element. They are considered to be accurate, unless there is evidence to show that they are not. Although it is not possible to verify every incident in the Bible, the discoveries of archaeology since the mid 1800s have demonstrated the reliability and plausibility of the Bible narrative. Here are some examples."

The bible is good in some places, bad in others. One of the basic problems is that the OT did not get written down in its current form until (IIRC) about 600bc when two major sections of the Jewish faith chose to merge. Of course, at that time each side wanted its ownversion of events recorded. Just imagine if we tried to get for example the Roman Catholic church to merge with the Mormons?

Evidence for God?
Does God really exist? How can we know?
If God made everything, who made God?

The existence of God is taken for granted in the Bible. There is nowhere any argument to prove it. He who disbelieves this truth is spoken of as one devoid of understanding (Psalm 14:1).

The arguments generally adduced by theologians in proof of God's existence are

The a priori argument, which is the testimony afforded by reason.

Not valid.

The a posteriori argument, by which we proceed logically from the facts of experience to causes. These arguments are:

1. The cosmological, by which it is proved that there must be a First Cause of all things, for every effect must have a cause.

Invalid argument.

2. The teleological, or the argument from design. We see everywhere the operations of an intelligent Cause in nature.

Problem is, we see no such thing.

3. The moral argument, called also the anthropological argument, based on the moral consciousness and the history of mankind, which exhibits a moral order and purpose which can only be explained on the supposition of the existence of God. Conscience and human history testify that "verily there is a God that judgeth in the earth."

Man invented god(s).

And of course the age old "strike me dead, God" argument:

"Some people use this as proof that God doesn't exist: They say, "God strike me dead in five minutes." Five minutes pass and God doesn't strike them dead.

The question really is, is it a good reason not to believe in someone because they won't do what you tell them to do? In this case, is it a good reason not to believe in the Creator of the universe because he won't jump at your command.

Think about it for a moment. I can't believe in the President of the United States. Why not? Because I told him to come to dinner and he didn't come. I can't believe in a President that won't come to dinner when I tell him to. Do you see how silly that is?..."

No. Lame argument. I can see the President. I've stood withing three feet of a former president. I know people who have sat down to dinner with a president of the USA.

I've never met anyone with evidence for the existance of god.

I can go on and on...

Please do - only this time do try to come up with some real evidence.

"ev·i·dence Pronunciation Key (v-dns)
n.

1. A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment: The broken window was evidence that a burglary had taken place. Scientists weigh the evidence for and against a hypothesis.
2. Something indicative; an outward sign: evidence of grief on a mourner's face.
3. Law. The documentary or oral statements and the material objects admissible as testimony in a court of law."

"Christianity's truthfulness is contingent on its historical veracity in the most unique sense of all religions."---apologeticsinfo.org

If it aint true, no reason to believe in it.:D

Problem is christianity has very little historical veracity.

Eh, dying off or not, it is rather cruel to celebrate the death of -any- religion, no matter how much you disagree with it.

You may not like Christianity, but I personally think it's childish and insensative to celebrate the supposed 'death' of a religion. Especially one that people have cared enough for to die over.

No, I'm not a Christian. Just a person who finds these anti-[insert religion here] threads to be utterly stupid and childish.

It's not childish. People are celebrating the good things that can come from its disappearance.

Please enlighten me as to how Christianity is designed to gain people power. Oh, sure, it can be twisted to do that - but looking at its tenets, one would think that it's not made for that purpose, wouldn't one?

You only have to look at the wealth of the main churches to see.

Even in the earliest days, the church was writhen with power struggles. I think it was Ignatius of Antioch who, in the late first or early second century, said that "...all are to respect the deacons as Jesus Christ and the bishop as a copy of the Father and the presbyters as the council of God and the band of the apostles. For apart from these no group can be called a church." Until then many parts of the early church even rejected the idea of priests.

As early as 196AD the was an attempt by Victor (Bishop of Rome) to excommunicate all the Churches of Asia Minor because their method of fixing the date of Easter was different from his.

If it aint true, no reason to believe in it.:D
That, mon ami, is precisely why Christianity is doomed. Its followers adhere to it because of its direct promise of reward; not because even the mythological verity of it has implications beyond the self.

The fact is, Jesus might not have come back to life. The minimalist degree to which the Post-resurrection Jesus is covered in the Symbiotic Gospels is a shocking look into how unsure the people even shortly after his death, when they took a good look at it, were about whether or not he did indeed revive, and quite what the implications of that were.

However, to Matthew, Mark and Luke, the message was simple. The supernatural power that Jesus represented was affirming the truths of Jesus's moral teachings for those who needed it. I, for one, don't doubt that Matthew and Mark would have written their accounts even without the drive that "seeing him" brought, and their message would be no less valid than it is in our own world.

Jesus's moral teachings are valuable in and of themselves, and Christianity has made a monopoly of his wisdom that refuses to allow it to exist without the trappings of the theological backwash of Paul of Tarsus.

Christianity as an Organisation needs to set aside their domination over "their figure" in order for true understanding of Christ to be gained. The Letters and John's Gospel (John wrote his gospel significantly after Paul's questing around the Mediterranean, and it's generally assumed that he focused heavily on Paul's Judaistic interpretation of Jesus of Nazareth) have been explicitly deemed "Christianity's lens through which to view the other Gospel accounts", and this has severely stunted any sort of exploration as to Jesus's spiritual and ethical insight.

As it stands, Jesus is your property. Anything to do with him is immediately linked to the church and its human representatives. Doesn't that worry you?

Not all those touched by the wisdom of Christ desire or fear afterworldly repercussions. Not all of them see God in the same way you do (and implicitly twist Jesus into holding that same view). You must allow people to be disciples of Christ without being members of a Judaistic sect, or his impact will be little more than Iconic. As long as the Church refuses to accept this, it is doomed to failure, and things will only get worse until the doctrines of Heaven and Hell have been destroyed.

Maybe it's just me, but our current generation has lost most, if not all it's faith in christianity. I speak of the 16-28 year old population of course. We've got loads of idiotic elderly and people in their 40's who still believe. But wonder of all wonders, they'll all be dead in a matter of years. This thread is to celebrate the death of illogical christianity in the United States. No one my age believes in creationism. No one my age thinks it's right to prevent gay people from getting marriage rights (okay, this isn't true, but the people who think it's okay are dropping like flies). Everyone believes in Evolution. Almost all the college students I know are atheists or agnostics. Most really just don't care. I am feeling optimistic, that America and the Western Hemisphere have finally thrown off the clutches of religion, and are now able to look towards a reasonable, logical future. Thoughts?

What is so good about a loss of Christianity. Before you answer, consider that creationism and opposing gay marriage are not nessecarly Christian things to believe. Also, do you have any other infomation besides your own observations?

It's not childish. People are celebrating the good things that can come from its disappearance.

It is childish. People you dont agree with are decreasing in number and your celebrating. More people that you agree with.

What good can come of its dissaperance then? Care to enlighten us?

(*Applauds Kamsaki*)

Yeah, what he (or she) said.

*Chalks up another killed thread*

^^;

It's He by the way, Mr Universalists. The capital H is of course optional.

Stop taking up data space. We could equally say that Islam is dying as the US invades the Middle East. See? Just as easliy it can be turned on any other religion. The south US is known as the "Bible Belt". My high school in north US is basically 80% Christian. Everyone I know is. The area of the state where I live is massively Christian. Things can look very deceiving to people on the outside.

Maybe you should come up with some better threads that aren't celebrating the "loss" of an ideal or way of life that can't harm anyone when practiced correctly. Please, just stop waisting our time.

People like that either become paranoid dictators (Mao was like an extremist Satanist - read his early writings on "great heroes") or serial killers.

And yeah, I really, really loathe "rebellion". It's so pathetic and it's never embedded in solid practicality. It never leads to anything useful and rebels can never accept reality.

I don't even know were to begin telling you what is wrong with this. Why don't you try learning something about a topic before forming an opinion? Satanism was founded for people who were tired of impractical religion. Reason and practicality are it's very core.

Was H.G.Wells a prophet? Yes
Maybe Isaac Asimov? Maybe or Arthur C. Clarke? Hell NO! Not that neo-pagan bitch-man! :p j/k ;)


The bible is good in some places, bad in others. *snip* when two major sections of the Jewish faith chose to merge. *snip* Just imagine if we tried to get for example the Roman Catholic church to merge with the Mormons?

Oh, now THAT goes too far! They don't even talk the same language. The two different sect of the OT had far more in common than that. The comparison would be more like trying to combine the Methodist with the Lutherans. They would bicker and fight and not be able to imagine how it could ever be accomplished, but to those of us on the outside we would be thinking, "Is there ever a difference between Methodist and Lutherans?" They look like twins having a sibling rivalry!?!?

:p :D

Maybe it's just me, but our current generation has lost most, if not all it's faith in christianity. I speak of the 16-28 year old population of course. We've got loads of idiotic elderly and people in their 40's who still believe. But wonder of all wonders, they'll all be dead in a matter of years. This thread is to celebrate the death of illogical christianity in the United States. No one my age believes in creationism. No one my age thinks it's right to prevent gay people from getting marriage rights (okay, this isn't true, but the people who think it's okay are dropping like flies). Everyone believes in Evolution. Almost all the college students I know are atheists or agnostics. Most really just don't care. I am feeling optimistic, that America and the Western Hemisphere have finally thrown off the clutches of religion, and are now able to look towards a reasonable, logical future. Thoughts?

OH LORD I HOPE YOUR RIGHT. I am not exactly "old" in the sense, and i would love nothing more then a logical, that is to say "not idiotic" generation to live my adult years in. Please be right, if Christianity dies it will be the best thing that EVER happened. EVER. EVER. And P.S., about 70% of my classmates are either agnostic or atheist. Ima proud agnostic leaning towards atheism. WOOHOO!!! DIE CHRISTIANITY DIE!!!

*sigh*

Another "OMtehG!!!1111!11! cHr1571N417y 12 3V1l!!!111!1" thread.

Yawn.

That, mon ami, is precisely why Christianity is doomed. *snip*
The fact is, Jesus might not have come back to life. The minimalist degree to which the Post-resurrection Jesus is covered in the Symbiotic Gospels is a shocking look into how unsure the people even shortly after his death, when they took a good look at it, were about whether or not he did indeed revive, and quite what the implications of that were. *snip*

..., and Christianity has made a monopoly of his wisdom that refuses to allow it to exist without the trappings of the theological backwash of Paul of Tarsus.

Not all those touched by the wisdom of Christ desire or fear afterworldly repercussions. Not all of them see God in the same way you do (and implicitly twist Jesus into holding that same view). You must allow people to be disciples of Christ without being members of a Judaistic sect, or his impact will be little more than Iconic. As long as the Church refuses to accept this, it is doomed to failure, and things will only get worse until the doctrines of Heaven and Hell have been destroyed.

Oh Damn, after two thousand years we've finally been uncovered! Someone quick, turn out the lights, we'll all hide! [/sarcasm]

Really, people have been trying to kill the Good News of the Christian movement for thousands of years, it makes no sense, it should be dead, or so they think.

If someone could just stop those people from having spiritual enlightenments and epiphanies all on their own and without warning, I'm sure we could bring this nonsense under control, it's not like the real God could be behind it or anything now is there? Or is there?


Personal epiphanies are powerful things, logic is irrelevant, even that theological backwash of Paul of Tarsus predicted that. Man’s foolishness is God’s wisdom.

Personal epiphanies are powerful things, logic is irrelevant, even that theological backwash of Paul of Tarsus predicted that. Man’s foolishness is God’s wisdom.
zomg! Walking out into the middle of the street is a good idea! I think it's foolish, so God must think it's wise!

Seriously, there are some things that are purely human in origin that cannot be translated to divine wisdom. Personal epiphanies are all fine and good, but when they're made from a human perspective of an admittedly very special human by studying one human's own perspective of that human and the other humans that think his one was a good idea, your epiphany is undoubtedly human in origin.

Wisdom of God is one thing. Man's foolishness is another. The two are separate and do not go hand in hand. Break the link or one will be destroyed by the other, and not necessarily the one you want to.

I don't even know were to begin telling you what is wrong with this. Why don't you try learning something about a topic before forming an opinion? Satanism was founded for people who were tired of impractical religion. Reason and practicality are it's very core. Er, I have learned about Satanism, and I wasn't accusing you of "rebellion". That's why it was on a separate paragraph. :)

Oh, now THAT goes too far! They don't even talk the same language. The two different sect of the OT had far more in common than that. The comparison would be more like trying to combine the Methodist with the Lutherans. They would bicker and fight and not be able to imagine how it could ever be accomplished, but to those of us on the outside we would be thinking, "Is there ever a difference between Methodist and Lutherans?" They look like twins having a sibling rivalry!?!?

:p :D

Ok, I suppose including the Momons in the mix was going just a few steps tooooo far :)

Still waiting for Brenchley to answer my question....

Kinda sad that people are celebrating the death of a religion based on love...
Apart from the fact that it's not dying out, it's wierd how there is so much hatred for christians. I wouldn't be surprised if in the future christianity was banned... talk about tolerance

It is childish. People you dont agree with are decreasing in number and your celebrating. More people that you agree with.

What good can come of its dissaperance then? Care to enlighten us?

It will not be there to impede science or oppress people in the name of "morality".

I hate getting into these topics so late that I can't read all of the posts. :(

1- there are presently a LOT of Christians in the world. I heard a few years ago that the ONLY area of the world where Catholicism is continuing to grow is Africa, and that's because the priests terrify them, and they don't know any better. Think of the conditions they live in, and map that onto... say... old Europe. Lots of impressionable, superstitious people. The priests tell them what they have to do to get into heaven, and they do it.
2- if you want a country that's less religious, and more spiritual/open... welcome to Canada. Whereas there's the divide in the north and south in America (generally), Canada is a further extension of the north... in terms of religiousness. We're as far from the Bible belt as you can get! :P Although there IS a chunk that's more American in its views... Alberta. But they're still not as bad as the Bible Belt. :P
3- Yep, there's a LOT of old people who are Christians. My sister had an experience when she tried to join a church... all the old people glared at her, like she didn't belong. I have no problem with organized religion shrinking. We can donate some empty churches to somebody else. :P

I think it is fairly easy to understand the hatred some people feel toward Christians (partly because I used to feel it myself). To put it bluntly, you can only be told that you are a terrible person and going to Hell so many times before you just say, "Well, screw the lot of you then." I know this does not describe all or even the majority of Chirstians, however, these type of people ARE the vocal and often are the majority in parts of the US.

As for Christianity being banned, I have one question: How? If you want to make a serious run for president, you have to be either Christian or Jewish now. The vast majority of the House and Senate and Supreem Court are Chrsitian, and there is that pesky first Amendmant getting in the way.

(Oh maybe someday Christianity will be accepted to the point that there can be a Christian president... or perhaps perhaps 16 consecutive Christian Presidents)

I think it is fairly easy to understand the hatred some people feel toward Christians (partly because I used to feel it myself). To put it bluntly, you can only be told that you are a terrible person and going to Hell so many times before you just say, "Well, screw the lot of you then." I know this does not describe all or even the majority of Chirstians, however, these type of people ARE the vocal and often are the majority in parts of the US.

It's a general principle, every ideological group has vocal elements who are "attached" [in a loose sense] to the group, which attempt to assert a system of moral superiority of themselves [or their connected ideology] over that of opposing groups...

"christians" do it...
"atheists" do it...
"socialists" do it...
"capitalists" do it...
"communists" do it...

When it comes down to it, no one person is really any better, or all that much different than that of the rest...

And many people are going to move and express their paths, as if unique... That their change in belief is some sort of unique epiphany that the people they are addressing have not also done before [and in some cases reversed much later on]... And express their alteration through some self-justification of their own superiority over the people they are addressing.

I absolutely agree with you, Tekania; every group has it's fringe elements, and they all grate on my nerves. I think one reason why Christians get a bad name is that their group is larger (or at least more vocal and respected) than the others and are often more concentrated in specific areas. So while you probably won't live in a town filled with rabid socialists or atheists or Jews, there is are many places in the nation where you can live in a town filled with rabid Christians.

I absolutely agree with you, Tekania; every group has it's fringe elements, and they all grate on my nerves. I think one reason why Christians get a bad name is that their group is larger (or at least more vocal and respected) than the others and are often more concentrated in specific areas. So while you probably won't live in a town filled with rabid socialists or atheists or Jews, there is are many places in the nation where you can live in a town filled with rabid Christians.

Which is why complaints should be directed to people, not groups.... As soon as you direct it upon the group; you begin exercizing the exact same mentality as the 'representative' you're opposing; effectively becomming that which you are expressing verbal hatred towards...

Merely because I may express a personal moral view dealing with certain types of thought and action; it is automatically assumed by others that I have adopted several other differing actions, merely because I happen to hold some views of similtude to another who they despise...

Person A, will hear that I, for example, am Christian, and think children should be allowed to pray in school, and that such means that I think there should be mandatory prayer... Which I do not believe there should be...

Person B, will here my opposition to mandatory prayer, and assume I am atheistic...

Person A, will hear that I believe homosexuality is a moral wrong, and will assume that I work to oppress gays and lesbians...

Person B, will hear that I support civil rights towards gays and lesbians, marriage rights, and the like; and assume that I think it's morally ok...

All it is, is a load of people, of various differing ideologies, who are more concerned with asserting their own moral superiority over everyone else; assume beliefs by association... And spend hardly any time trying to understand WHAT the other person actually believes, or even, really, addressing the beliefs they are attempting to assert.

I find it funny how many atheists here use generalizations and stereotypes in order to attack a way of thinking and a way of life all because it's different from their own. Yes, the church oppressed people. So did the Jews. So did the Muslims. The whites oppressed people. So did the latinos. So did the Africans. So did the Asians(especially the Japanese-->WWII). There were men who oppressed women and women who oppressed men. Now, we have atheists here who are using the "they once oppressed people. They all must be evil and out to conquer the world. My beliefs don't want to do that. My beliefs were only used to oppress people once. Kill the evil ones." way of thinking to try to oppress Christianity. You anti-religion wackos are just as bad as the church of yesteryear. You want to gain power by destroying the competition. You're as bad as the Darwinistic wackos. They turned a form of science into a religion. Say one thing to them within science that shows ONE measly inaccurasy with what a man said over one hundred years ago and you'd have to run before they lynch you. The only thing hurting atheism is the group of atheists who want war. Why do you think the Soviets fell? They chose to have political war with the powerful capitalistic nations. They wanted political war with the UK. The same with France and Canada. They hated the US the most. The Soviets demise was caused by 20% failed philosophy, 20% oppression, and 60% loathing. Keep in mind that those are estimates. If the Soviets chose to allow the US and western Europe to be their allies(WWII doesn't count if you know what happened), they probably would still be here today. Why isn't atheism more popular? Because some of its folowers are scaring potential converts away. Stop attacking others and you'll get stronger.

Tekania, again I agree with you. But many people, myself included, grew up where every (or nearly every) Christian we were exposed to was in that fringe. When we see "a" and "b" together that does not mean it is linked; however, when a person sees "a" and "b" together a hundred times with no counter examples, they generally do begin to believe it is linked. (We don't know for sure gravity is caused by concentrated mass, but it seems like a good bet). It is human nature, and it often takes something major to overcome that prejudice. I'm not saying that the prejudice is right, I'm saying that it is understandable in certain situations, and saying what needs to be done (mainly mainline churches need to be more vocal) to combat it.

Christianity is NOT dying. How do I know? My 16 year old sister is a bible-thumping homophobe. :sniper:

I hate her.

(Yes, I hate my own sister. :p )

Christianity is NOT dying. How do I know? My 16 year old sister is a bible-thumping homophobe. :sniper:

I hate her.

(Yes, I hate my own sister. :p )


Is she the only born-again Christian in your household? If so, the poor girl, she has my moral support and admiration for sticking with it while living in a house with a brother who actively hates her for her faith.


As to you, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Is she the only born-again Christian in your household? If so, the poor girl, she has my moral support and admiration for sticking with it while living in a house with a brother who actively hates her for her faith.


As to you, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Actually, she may be a born-again christian, but she's still 16, and she frequently gets into trouble with the law. In fact, mom just had to go to court after my sis returned from a few-day runaway hiatus.

Plus, she lives with her birthfather, not with us, thankfully. Plus, I was born from a different set of parents, who are MIA. I'm glad she's not my blood.

And I hate her because she's a homophobe.

And I hate her because she's a homophobe.

Then as someone who appears to value tolerance, perhaps you should bear in mind that it's easier to hate than it is to understand.

Speaking for myself, born-again Christians annoy me... but mostly I'm just sad that they've persuaded themselves that closed-mindedness and wilful ignorance are good things.

Don't you think that Christianity was dead in about the 10th century? If not by then certiantly by the middle of the 19th century. Christianity as a force that has changed the social direction the world really ended centuries ago. It's banner of progressive change in the social order was taken over first by Islam and now by the Baha'i Faith.

Don't you think that Christianity was dead in about the 10th century? If not by then certiantly by the middle of the 19th century. Christianity as a force that has changed the social direction the world really ended centuries ago. It's banner of progressive change in the social order was taken over first by Islam and now by the Baha'i Faith.

Really? I thought that the primary banner of progressive change in the social order was taken over by secular humanists - I could easily argue that forces like democracy, science, and socialism have had a far, far greater impact than Islam or the Baha'i Faith.

In fact, a more profound effect than any religion in modern times. Face it, secular humanism is here to stay.

Religions will live on only on the sidelines - not as the major driving force in our world society.

Really? I thought that the primary banner of progressive change in the social order was taken over by secular humanists - I could easily argue that forces like democracy, science, and socialism have had a far, far greater impact than Islam or the Baha'i Faith.

In fact, a more profound effect than any religion in modern times. Face it, secular humanism is here to stay.

Religions will live on only on the sidelines - not as the major driving force in our world society.

Certainly, a popular view held by many secular humanist, but I don't believe they were even in existance in the tenth centurty. And only just begining in the middle of the 19th century. Hopefully, secular humanism is here to stay. There point of view in important and needs to be added to the voice of consultation. But they seem to lack organization. The principles of the Baha'i Faith with have been in existense since since the mid-1800's and have gradually been accepted as human rights that should protected pre-date much of what the have had a large impact on the social progress of the world.

Certainly, a popular view held by many secular humanist, but I don't believe they were even in existance in the tenth centurty. And only just begining in the middle of the 19th century. Hopefully, secular humanism is here to stay. There point of view in important and needs to be added to the voice of consultation. But they seem to lack organization. The principles of the Baha'i Faith with have been in existense since since the mid-1800's and have gradually been accepted as human rights that should protected pre-date much of what the have had a large impact on the social progress of the world.

It's a popular view held by a particular Pentacostal Christian...

Organization? What do you call political parties in most Western nations?

Most Americans have never heard of the Baha'i (I've only heard of them because I live in the Washington DC Metro area, and a few live around here).

My older sister had one Baha'i family as neighbors when I was in the first Gulf War. They constantly called her on the phone and told her that I was a bad person for serving in the war - and they knocked on her door almost every day to remind her again and again. Finally, she got tired of it. She posted a No Trespassing sign on her porch, and when the woman came over, my sister beat her very badly. They never bothered her again, and the police did not let the woman press charges.

Maybe it's just me, but our current generation has lost most, if not all it's faith in christianity. I speak of the 16-28 year old population of course. We've got loads of idiotic elderly and people in their 40's who still believe. But wonder of all wonders, they'll all be dead in a matter of years. This thread is to celebrate the death of illogical christianity in the United States. No one my age believes in creationism. No one my age thinks it's right to prevent gay people from getting marriage rights (okay, this isn't true, but the people who think it's okay are dropping like flies). Everyone believes in Evolution. Almost all the college students I know are atheists or agnostics. Most really just don't care. I am feeling optimistic, that America and the Western Hemisphere have finally thrown off the clutches of religion, and are now able to look towards a reasonable, logical future. Thoughts?

Thats because everyone you know are religion-hating icky leftists. I do feel sorry for you. Christianity isn't dying, Christianity will never die.

It's a popular view held by a particular Pentacostal Christian...

Organization? What do you call political parties in most Western nations?

Most Americans have never heard of the Baha'i (I've only heard of them because I live in the Washington DC Metro area, and a few live around here).

My older sister had one Baha'i family as neighbors when I was in the first Gulf War. They constantly called her on the phone and told her that I was a bad person for serving in the war - and they knocked on her door almost every day to remind her again and again. Finally, she got tired of it. She posted a No Trespassing sign on her porch, and when the woman came over, my sister beat her very badly. They never bothered her again, and the police did not let the woman press charges.

I'm sorry, I think I misunderstood you. Are saying that secular humanist are the organization factor in political parties?

As for your neighbors are you sure they were Baha'is? If they really were I would be very surprised considering that Sadam wouldn't allow the Baha'is in Iraq to hold meetings and some were imprisoned by him.

And what is poplar view by Pentacostal Christians?

My wife is insisting that I do some work around the house on my day off. Can you imangine that!! And a lovely day it is too. Must be near sixty here not the norm for us.

I'm sorry, I think I misunderstood you. Are saying that secular humanist are the organization factor in political parties?

As for your neighbors are you sure they were Baha'is? If they really were I would be very surprised considering that Sadam wouldn't allow the Baha'is in Iraq to hold meetings and some were imprisoned by him.

And what is poplar view by Pentacostal Christians?

My wife is insisting that I do some work around the house on my day off. Can you imangine that!! And a lovely day it is too. Must be near sixty here not the norm for us.

Absolutely sure they were Baha'is. And they made sure my sister knew they were Baha'i. They said that even if Saddam were evil, it never justifies my being in the Army.

Most Pentacostal Christians believe that secular humanism has largely taken over.

Socialists are secular humanists. They organize political parties. In most countries on Earth for the past 100 years or so.

Thats because everyone you know are religion-hating icky leftists. I do feel sorry for you. Christianity isn't dying, Christianity will never die.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

Absolutely sure they were Baha'is. And they made sure my sister knew they were Baha'i. They said that even if Saddam were evil, it never justifies my being in the Army.

Most Pentacostal Christians believe that secular humanism has largely taken over.

Socialists are secular humanists. They organize political parties. In most countries on Earth for the past 100 years or so.

If they were Bahai's and I have no reason to not believe you or your sister they were speaking for themselves as individuals and not representing any offical viewpoint which they have the right to do. Bahai's have the obligation to serve their country if called upon to do that. We normally ask for non-combantant roles, but if denied we must serve in whatever capacity we asked to serve in. Any in Iran where Baha'is have been persecuted since the inception of the Bahai Faith young men were drafted and served.

I am not a Pentacostal Christian and do not believe that secular humanist have largely taken over the world.

If secular humanist have orginized poliltical parties for the past 100 years it seems to prove my point about the lack of orginization of secular humanists, unless an attribute of secular humanism is to fight like cats and dogs.

Christianity is NOT dying. How do I know? My 16 year old sister is a bible-thumping homophobe.

where abouts is she, we seem to have a lot in common. i wouldn't mind meeting her.

where abouts is she, we seem to have a lot in common. i wouldn't mind meeting her.
Oooh... Now I understand. Christianity might survive longer than I thought. ^^;

Not before marriage! I know what you're thinkin.

Maybe it's just me, but our current generation has lost most, if not all it's faith in christianity. I speak of the 16-28 year old population of course. We've got loads of idiotic elderly and people in their 40's who still believe. But wonder of all wonders, they'll all be dead in a matter of years. This thread is to celebrate the death of illogical christianity in the United States. No one my age believes in creationism. No one my age thinks it's right to prevent gay people from getting marriage rights (okay, this isn't true, but the people who think it's okay are dropping like flies). Everyone believes in Evolution. Almost all the college students I know are atheists or agnostics. Most really just don't care. I am feeling optimistic, that America and the Western Hemisphere have finally thrown off the clutches of religion, and are now able to look towards a reasonable, logical future. Thoughts?

A dweeb named Robert Ingersoll once said the same thing 120 years ago. He has been dead for a century and Christrianity remains strong. See what happens when you succumb to Pauline Kael Syndrome? ;)

A dweeb named Robert Ingersoll once said the same thing 120 years ago. He has been dead for a century and Christrianity remains strong. See what happens when you succumb to Pauline Kael Syndrome? ;)

Most of the posters who believe Christianity is alive and well use sheer number of Christians to prove their point. If that is stanard then Islam probably beats Christianity.

More importantly, though, in my view, is the lack of leadership in both Islam and Christianity. Islam and Christianity both are unable to speak with a single voice on any of the major topics that require attention in the world today. To go back 100 yrs and more Christianity was unable to speak out about racial relations in the US and the rest of the world. In the US Christianity is still divided on Sunday along racial lines. Any real leadership role was taken up individuals and not the organizational Church. Christianity is crippled by divisions along racial and dogmatic lines, let alone the thousands of sects.

Islam's weakness regarding social leadership are apparent to most any impartial viewer. Neither, religion has the capacity to be the positive social force that they both once were.

Neither religion has the capacity to be the positive social force that they both once were.
Being a positive social force was never what either religion was about. It was certainly what Jesus was about, and most likely similarly with Mohammed and Islamic prophets, but the organisations claiming to represent both were never supposed to fulfil those particular ideas. Both point to the confused past and the unpredictable future as providing a solution to problematic social issues with the intention that they would be solved if and when the almighty decreed it.

The religions' role has always been one of membership-gathering. It may not be for their own interests in their eyes, but it has nonetheless been the one key drive of their existence; save the damned souls, spread the dominion of Allah. That goal has not always required social altruism; in fact, during the church's history, and during this current phase of the radicalisation of Islam, that goal is clearly met through sheer politics.

If indeed a solid leadership was to arise in the two bodies now, you would most likely see a devastating conflict that would annihilate the world as we know it. The Politics of Religion run far, far deeper than either faith's tenants would have you believe...

Being a positive social force was never what either religion was about. It was certainly what Jesus was about, and most likely similarly with Mohammed and Islamic prophets, but the organisations claiming to represent both were never supposed to fulfil those particular ideas. Both point to the confused past and the unpredictable future as providing a solution to problematic social issues with the intention that they would be solved if and when the almighty decreed it.

The religions' role has always been one of membership-gathering. It may not be for their own interests in their eyes, but it has nonetheless been the one key drive of their existence; save the damned souls, spread the dominion of Allah. That goal has not always required social altruism; in fact, during the church's history, and during this current phase of the radicalisation of Islam, that goal is clearly met through sheer politics.

If indeed a solid leadership was to arise in the two bodies now, you would most likely see a devastating conflict that would annihilate the world as we know it. The Politics of Religion run far, far deeper than either faith's tenants would have you believe...

The teachings of Christ were intended to change the society around him and the religion of that society. A society that had become corrupt and filled with hypocrisy. So many of the verses in the Bible attest to this that it does not require a list. The gathering of adherents is, of course, necessary for any religion to spread and gain strength. The Sermon on the Mount is a beatiful example of what Christ expected of people who would follow His banner; and by taking His advise would change society.


And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: 5:2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

(King James Bible, Matthew)



The change that Isalm brought to the social fabric of the Arabian people has filled books. The society of Islam by the 12 century far surpassed that of Christianity. Muhammad did attract adherents, but the purpose of Islam was to change the hearts of people and to build a just society.

- Snip -
Note: Christ != Christianity.

Following Christ's example was never Christianity's aim. They explicitly believe that nobody can. The organisation is all about spread, plain and simple. A man can be faithful without the Church, reading and acting upon the words of the prophets, yet the church seeks to tie itself to the idea of theological fidelity. Therein is its problem; it executes the very thing Jesus condemned the people of his time for doing.

Experience has shown that what Christ says and what Church does are often in conflict. Don't expect the words of one to be mirrored in the other.

Note: Christ != Christianity.

Following Christ's example was never Christianity's aim. They explicitly believe that nobody can. The organisation is all about spread, plain and simple. A man can be faithful without the Church, reading and acting upon the words of the prophets, yet the church seeks to tie itself to the idea of theological fidelity. Therein is its problem; it executes the very thing Jesus condemned the people of his time for doing.

Experience has shown that what Christ says and what Church does are often in conflict. Don't expect the words of one to be mirrored in the other.
None of which is surprising when one keeps in mind that modern Christianity exists because a secular political ruler assembled the Bible and assisted the early Church in order to use Christians to consolidate his power. This does not necessarily say anything about the teachings of Jesus or the individual faith of individual members of Christian sects, of course, but it does put a lot of the politics in perspective.

None of which is surprising when one keeps in mind that modern Christianity exists because a secular political ruler assembled the Bible and assisted the early Church in order to use Christians to consolidate his power. This does not necessarily say anything about the teachings of Jesus or the individual faith of individual members of Christian sects, of course, but it does put a lot of the politics in perspective.
Exactly my point. Religion is all about politics; assigning yourself a label based on your ideas then acting on that label rather than the ideas themselves. Even the idea of Faith is being twisted into a part of that labelling. Fortunately, I can still use the word Spirituality in an open context to define one's relationship with the divine in whatever form it's perceived.

Ultimately, what Jesus wanted was for people to take the idea of following the organisation of the Jewish temples and dispose of it in favour of creating an actual mindset that governed our behaviour and glorified God, all the while bearing the spirit of a oneness with divinity in our hearts. Christianity has given him yet another organisation. Missing the point, perhaps?

where abouts is she, we seem to have a lot in common. i wouldn't mind meeting her.
She's not into going out. At all. And she doesn't want children. She says she may adopt, but from what I can tell, she'll refuse to mate even after hell freezes over. Sorry.

But, I might try to get you together, assuming you're an actual wife-beater. ;)

Yes, she deserves it, IMO. :sniper: :fluffle: ;)

Islam and Christianity both are unable to speak with a single voice on any of the major topics that require attention in the world today.
What group is??? I would suspect any group that could "speak with a single voice" as being either a cult or some other oppressive organization. In my own experience, it's seldom any two or more people are going to agree on everything.

She's not into going out. At all. And she doesn't want children. She says she may adopt, but from what I can tell, she'll refuse to mate even after hell freezes over. Sorry.

But, I might try to get you together, assuming you're an actual wife-beater. ;)

Yes, she deserves it, IMO. :sniper: :fluffle: ;)

no, fraid not, i am no wife-beater, i've never had a wife so how can i be?

She's not into going out. At all. And she doesn't want children. She says she may adopt, but from what I can tell, she'll refuse to mate even after hell freezes over. Sorry.

But, I might try to get you together, assuming you're an actual wife-beater. ;)

Yes, she deserves it, IMO. :sniper: :fluffle: ;)

I think we might be brothers.;)

I have a sister is mean, nasty, long memory and unforgiving. But she is still my sister and I wouldn't want anything bad to happen to her.

Note: Christ != Christianity.

Following Christ's example was never Christianity's aim. They explicitly believe that nobody can. The organisation is all about spread, plain and simple. A man can be faithful without the Church, reading and acting upon the words of the prophets, yet the church seeks to tie itself to the idea of theological fidelity. Therein is its problem; it executes the very thing Jesus condemned the people of his time for doing.

Experience has shown that what Christ says and what Church does are often in conflict. Don't expect the words of one to be mirrored in the other.

Well, I'm not sure if I agree with this completely, especially the very early years. They did consider themselves followers of Christ. And yes, the Churches seem to have a hard time deciding on how to follow the teachings of Christ. The early centuries of Christianity did change the society around them, usually for the better.

What group is??? I would suspect any group that could "speak with a single voice" as being either a cult or some other oppressive organization. In my own experience, it's seldom any two or more people are going to agree on everything.

Those that claim to follow a single Prophet (Christians the Son of God no less) and can't find some common ground and often can't even agree if the other groups are legitimate should bring into question their abiltiy to bring about positive social change. Other posters are saying that was never the intent of organized Christianity. I think they judge to harshly the first few centuries.

Those that claim to follow a single Prophet (Christians the Son of God no less) and can't find some common ground and often can't even agree if the other groups are legitimate should bring into question their abiltiy to bring about positive social change. Other posters are saying that was never the intent of organized Christianity. I think they judge to harshly the first few centuries.

Really now, you think so do you? Does the Pope allow you to think?

Well, I'm not sure if I agree with this completely, especially the very early years. They did consider themselves followers of Christ. And yes, the Churches seem to have a hard time deciding on how to follow the teachings of Christ. The early centuries of Christianity did change the society around them, usually for the better.Fair enough on the earliest disciples; chances are some of them had worked out what Jesus wanted of them. But they weren't the dominant ones. The ones who came out on top were, in the end, those who were secondary sources, who viewed Christ in the light of their own religious background and made a full-on organisation out of him.

And, if you don't mind me asking, how exactly did society change for the better? The only thing I can think of is the general switch in theological allegience and the fall of the Roman Empire, which doesn't necessarily represent a change for good, but if the church did bring something new into the mix, I'd like to know about it to plug yet another gaping hole in my knowledge-base.

Er, I have learned about Satanism, and I wasn't accusing you of "rebellion". That's why it was on a separate paragraph. :)

Okay, I may have overreacted. But there are a lot of people with some very serious misconceptions. Also, I am a rebel but only by circumstance. If everyone else were like me, I'd be normal. They aren't so they call me a rebel. I am proud of it, but if I became the norm, I wouldn't change just because everybody was like me.

Fair enough on the earliest disciples; chances are some of them had worked out what Jesus wanted of them. But they weren't the dominant ones. The ones who came out on top were, in the end, those who were secondary sources, who viewed Christ in the light of their own religious background and made a full-on organisation out of him.

And, if you don't mind me asking, how exactly did society change for the better? The only thing I can think of is the general switch in theological allegience and the fall of the Roman Empire, which doesn't necessarily represent a change for good, but if the church did bring something new into the mix, I'd like to know about it to plug yet another gaping hole in my knowledge-base.

I think most historians who have studied the period, of whom I have read a little, would say that in general the progress of humakind made positive steps. It may have been one or two steps forward and a half step back. If your belief is that no progess was made in society during the years after Christ's death, then I have to ask when did we make progress? Believe me I am not trying to start a fight here; and my remarks should not be taken sarcastically.

It may be true that the 16-28 year olds are more liberal, but studies show that the 8-15 year olds are more conservative, and Christianity is on the rise among their population.

It may be true that the 16-28 year olds are more liberal, but studies show that the 8-15 year olds are more conservative, and Christianity is on the rise among their population.
Lol, I wouldn't put much stock in a study of the religious/political affiliations of 8 year olds.

Plus, do you really want to use that as a selling point? "It's true that the next generation of adults are rejecting our ways, but we've still got a hold on the 2nd through 9th graders! As long as we can convince 8 year olds to follow us, we're in business!"

i know, i know what you're saying. But Christianity has been around for 2000 years, and the religion it was based off of, Judaism, is still around, however small the follower numbers be, 4000 years or so after its founding. Christianity won't die, people want to cling to something they can trust. Even, if the 16-28 year olds are atheist now, watch when they are 40-something, and some guy will say that the next generation will be non-Christian, and so-on. Also, weren't the baby boomers(the current 40-60 year olds who Mods can be cruel is saying are Christian) very liberal when they were 16-28. I think 16-28 is just a period of liberal beliefs, and that it changes not long after words.

Fair enough on the earliest disciples; chances are some of them had worked out what Jesus wanted of them. But they weren't the dominant ones. The ones who came out on top were, in the end, those who were secondary sources, who viewed Christ in the light of their own religious background and made a full-on organisation out of him.

And, if you don't mind me asking, how exactly did society change for the better? The only thing I can think of is the general switch in theological allegience and the fall of the Roman Empire, which doesn't necessarily represent a change for good, but if the church did bring something new into the mix, I'd like to know about it to plug yet another gaping hole in my knowledge-base.

How did they cause Rome to fall?

In my experience, the southerners who aren’t religious are just more enthusiastic about “turning the Middle East into a glass crater.” No real victory there.
How do you know he does not agree with that?

The majority of people who vote because they think the politician is more in line with Christianity do not attend church every Sunday
"The more you talk about Jesus, the less you have to act like him!"

When one religion dies, it's because another has subplanted it.

Christianity is dying in favor of a Republican Party-Sponsored State Theocracy under the control of the Pope-President George W. Bush the Messiah of the Universe and Killer of Liberals.

I hope you are joking.

Those numbers are declining as well http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

Islam is the new up and coming religion right now.
Is this any better than Christianity? I think not.

How do you know he does not agree with that?


"The more you talk about Jesus, the less you have to act like him!"


I hope you are joking.


Is this any better than Christianity? I think not.

How do you do this? Take the different posts and then place them all in one reply. Do you know magic or something. Please, I'm serious.