NationStates Jolt Archive

BAGHDAD (AFP) - Iraq's first post- Saddam Hussein constitution has been approved, the independent electoral commission said, as it announced the final results of this month's landmark referendum.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you our exit strategy. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051025/ts_afp/iraqconstitutionvote_051025110906)

1. That's good news. Let's see what it changes now.

2.
The outcome of the October 15 referendum finally hinged on the results of the mainly Sunni northern province of Nineveh which was among the last provinces to declare its results.

Two other Sunni majority provinces had already voted against the charter by the necessary two-thirds majority but in the event Nineveh voters only rejected the text by 55 percent to 45, insufficient to block its adoption.

Sunni Arabs, who dominated Saddam Hussein's regime and all previous Iraqi governments, generally opposed the new constitution, fearing its federal nature would leave the country's vast oil resources in the hands of Kurds and Shiites.
But that was pretty damn close for something as important as a constitution, wasn't it?

This Constitution's no good if it can't be upheld. How do you uphold laws? By force, whether political, economic or physical. Since the economic and political networks within Iraq don't seem strong enough to prevent violent secessionists from plying their trade, physical force through military action and police presence seems to be the only real option.

Iraq's security forces (its army and police institutions) are not yet up to the job. Only when they can and will do their job, can we Yankees wash our hands of the whole thing.

The faster they do it the better, of course. It's costing (both us and them) money and lives like nobody's business.

This Constitution's no good if it can't be upheld. How do you uphold laws? By force, whether political, economic or physical.

No, if you're upholding the laws and Constitution by force, it won't last.

The people have to want the laws and Constitution. Otherwise, it all goes to hell sooner or later.

As an example, if everyone decided today that they weren't going to obey the speed limit, the police would be powerless to stop it. Most people go along with the speed limit (or keep it close) - not because they fear the ticket, but because they want to follow the herd and follow the law.

That's why riots are so hard to control - you can't have enough police in some cases.

Democracy has to be something that people want.

1. That's good news. Let's see what it changes now.

2.

But that was pretty damn close for something as important as a constitution, wasn't it?


What do you mean close?

Iraq's Electoral Commission, revealing final results from the October 15 referendum, said 79 percent of voters backed the constitution against 21 percent opposed in a poll split largely along Iraq's sectarian and ethnic lines. (http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2005-10-25T121450Z_01_YUE544037_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAQ.xml)

79% looks pretty damn high to me.

What do you mean close?

Iraq's Electoral Commission, revealing final results from the October 15 referendum, said 79 percent of voters backed the constitution against 21 percent opposed in a poll split largely along Iraq's sectarian and ethnic lines.

79% looks pretty damn high to me.
Three provinces had a majority opposed, but the majority in Nineveh wasn't big enough (two thirds) to force its rejection.

Great, so now we have a constitution that states no Iraqi law may contradict Islam, and Islam is now the primary source of legislation. (How many people actually bothered to read it?) Given the generally conservative nature of the Shia majority, the Kurds will have to say goodbye to their treasured women's rights.

You're complaining for the provinces that voted 98% for it? They don't seem to be worried about it, why are you?

You're complaining for the provinces that voted 98% for it? They don't seem to be worried about it, why are you?
I'll repsect the Kurds' choice (in the sense that I won't say it was wrong, I'll just imply it isn't in their self-interest - a subtle difference perhaps). It's just a shame that rather than reading the constitution and seeing it could destroy their relatively liberal culture, they believed the government's line that it will end the violence (which is just wishful thinking).

I don't think the Kurds have allusions of it bringing peace, they know what they were voting for. I think they've lived long enough with the Sunni to know that they have to defend themselves...

79% of the total Iraqi popular vote, 95-99% of the Kurd votes, that speaks volumes. The 20% Sunni complainers cry because they lost their disproportionate favoritism and they aren't getting it back. Like spoiled rich kids that aren't rich anymore, they do nothing but complain. :rolleyes: The insurgents will continue, but they will continue so long as we are there.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/25/iraq.constitution/index.html

The Iraqi Constitution has been approved by the people of Iraq. Around 78% of the people voted to approve the Iraqi Constitution. The Turnout was around 63%.

Congratulations to the People of Iraq.

Didn't you hear? DNC leadership have called the election a fraud, based on an ABC News report that had a guy voting multiple times in once province. Clearly, the election was a failure. ;)

Indeed, but whether the democracy can stand upto the possible threat of civil war after the troops leave remains to be seen.
However, it's a good start. So long as the idea that the election was rigged doesnt become popular amongst the Sunni's.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=450944

However, it's a good start. So long as the idea that the election was rigged doesnt become popular amongst the Sunni's.

Too late.

*throws a celebration party*

Why to go Iraq. Now lets bring off the Parlimentary Elections on the 15th of December.

It works like this: The UN oversaw the electoral process, so one can say either that:

- The UN is incompetent, this election was a fraud (come on! 99% percent of yes in some places? Even Saddam would "only" have 98%, and that included the votes of some dead people!)

- The UN is competent, this election was free and fair.


But as ah-lex said, the true strenght of the constitution will reside in its ability to stop that country from going into a civil war.

Didn't you hear? DNC leadership have called the election a fraud, based on an ABC News report that had a guy voting multiple times in once province. Clearly, the election was a failure. ;)

LOL @ that. DNC exported at least one idea to Iraq in terms of voting multiple times ;).

MUAHAHAHAHA

Lets see if the agreement made with the Sunni's that enabled it to pass , ever gets carried out in the form of an ammendment or ammendments as promised . But its still a great milestone and history in the making . I know the people in other countries are watching and wondering when they get a turn at freedom .

When will they combine both these threads ?

Lets see if the agreement made with the Sunni's that enabled it to pass , ever gets carried out in the form of an ammendment or ammendments as promised . But its still a great milestone and history in the making . I know the people in other countries are watching and wondering when they get a turn at freedom .

Why the Hell did we let them vote on their Constitution?!
We never got to vote on ours :p

Why did they get to vote on their Constitution?:headbang:
I don't remember us getting the privellege about 230 years ago - I'm jealous! :p

Why the Hell did we let them vote on their Constitution?!
We never got to vote on ours

Because we had a revolution from within. They had an invasion. Not allowing them to vote would have thrown out a serious possibility for legitimacy. By allowing them to vote by referendum, it has allowed a degree of legitimacy, which democracy requires. We never really had that problem here until the Civil War but that was placated after the fighting subsided. In addition, we followed a European-style system in Iraq, Parliament, Prime Minister, etc. Referendum's are part of those constitutions and though some countries don't use them often, others do. In a way, it helps with all those people who are "against our actions" to see that our objective isn't what they claim it was.

-snip-
Perhaps I should clarify that I was joking >_<

Perhaps I should clarify that I was joking >_<

Arr...lol yeah...either way my argument will certainly work with the multitude of posts that will come in the time calling this a fraud and this and that. Hell everyone should think of this more or less as a step towards the end of this thing we call the Iraq War. A constitution, a democratically elected government, etc. is something very new to the region. Whether or not it will last is certainly a major question though that cannot be answered without time.

Now a major selling point to the referendum is it takes away another selling point of terrorism, albeit terrorists use as much logic as a drunken, stoned fool driving a car. Even after we are gone they will claim this to be a farce, a puppet of the US government, however, their base of support does get smaller each time the Iraqi people do something on their own. They'll always have support but the people on the fence, the majority, are slowly fading away from roadside bombs, sniper attacks, and hostage taking.

BTW does anyone else find it ironic that they tried to seize the Palestine Hotel? I just though that was amusing.

Why the Hell did we let them vote on their Constitution?!
We never got to vote on ours :p
Our white male land-holding forefathers voted for the delegates in each state that would get to approve the constitution or not.

What do you mean close?
I mean that a majority (and an ethnic majority too) more or less forced this on the minority. That's not exactly something to be happy about, because that minority will feel even more excluded than they did before.
Already the Insurgency is heavily drawn from the Sunni, and now they have to get used to simply being sidelined in the democratic process.
I don't think it's going to help stability at all.

The problem is: How large of majority is needed for a government to stand? A "democracy" needs to have a "loyal opposition" that at least supports the government to the point where they won't fight. That means well over 90%. Just think if 5% of your country decided to fight. In the US that would mean 15,000,000 people. Could the US government stand if 15,000,000 people decided to take up arms and fight the government? I doubt it. I doubt any government could stand if 1% decided to fight. That would be 3,000,000 in the US. The question is: Can the government of Bushnam be assured that less than 5% will fight? The answer to that question will determine if any constitution means anything.

It works like this: The UN oversaw the electoral process, so one can say either that:

- The UN is incompetent, this election was a fraud (come on! 99% percent of yes in some places? Even Saddam would "only" have 98%, and that included the votes of some dead people!)

- The UN is competent, this election was free and fair.

But as ah-lex said, the true strenght of the constitution will reside in its ability to stop that country from going into a civil war.

It's not so much the Constitution. If such a large majority are stating their desire to have a unified Iraq under a single government by voting for a Constitution (that has loopholes that allow it to be rewritten considerably), then it's not the Constitution that will stop a civil war - it's the demonstrated will of the people.

Of course, they would have to continue to hold that will in the face of a minority of very violent asshats who love to blow up people at random.

I'm dissapointed.

Not that they've chosen a Constitution, but that they've chosen this particular one...

I'm dissapointed.

Not that they've chosen a Constitution, but that they've chosen this particular one...

It has a loophole that allows them to rewrite the whole thing next year.

It has a loophole that allows them to rewrite the whole thing next year.
I suppose there's still hope then.