NationStates Jolt Archive

Just a brief question for all you gun lovers out there.

What, in your opinion, is the best assault rifle in the world, and why do you believe it to be so?

Just a brief question for all you gun lovers out there.

What, in your opinion, is the best assault rifle in the world, and why do you believe it to be so?

The M4.
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as17-e.htm

Light. Handy. Very accurate. Ammunition is light. Very, very reliable. Ammunition is deadly. Easy to maintain.

The M4.
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as17-e.htm

Light. Handy. Very accurate. Ammunition is light. Very, very reliable. Ammunition is deadly. Easy to maintain.

Is that a sort of scaled down version of the M16? It looks a bit similar to me.

Is that a sort of scaled down version of the M16? It looks a bit similar to me.

Yes. Shorter, lighter, product improved.

Here's the whole M4 SOPMOD package.
http://quarterbore.com/kac/sopmod.html

Yes. Shorter, lighter, product improved.

Is that what the US Army uses these days then?

Is that what the US Army uses these days then?
Mostly for Rangers, light infantry, and Special Forces.

Very reliable and very deadly.

Just a brief question for all you gun lovers out there.

What, in your opinion, is the best assault rifle in the world, and why do you believe it to be so?
Always been a fan of the Charlville Musket. http://www.11thpa.org/charleville.html

It was the "Assault Rifle" of the Revolutionary War.

Then there it the good old Henry Rifle (http://www.hackman-adams.com/guns/henry.htm)- that "Damn Yankee Rifle that you could load on sunday and shoot all week"

The 30.06 1903 Springfield bolt action rifle was another good one.

Military Assault Rifles all. ;)

Call me oldschool, but I still like the AK-47.

Ammo is cheap, Unline the M4/M16/AR15 the AK is simple to clean and is not as sensitive to dirt/debris as the AR's due to it's design. It is fairly accurate for close quarters action. This and the weight isn't bad.

Just a brief question for all you gun lovers out there.

What, in your opinion, is the best assault rifle in the world, and why do you believe it to be so?

I have to go w/ the AK-47. The larger caliber ammo is superior at penetrating than the 5.56 and it's ruggedness makes it ideal for any environment. While its accuracy is not as good as the M-16 family, that's not what it was designed for.

I have to go w/ the AK-47. The larger caliber ammo is superior at penetrating than the 5.56 and it's ruggedness makes it ideal for any environment. While its accuracy is not as good as the M-16 family, that's not what it was designed for.

The current 5.56mm ammunition is superior in armor penetration to the AK's 7.62x39mm

The current 5.56mm ammunition is superior in armor penetration to the AK's 7.62x39mm

Not the crap we were issued.

I've taken down trees w/ 7.62.

Actually, I'm fairly partial towards the M1 (Socom 16 (http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-rifles-socom.shtml)) Galil &/or FN-FAL. I just have a thing about 7.62/.308 :D

Not the crap we were issued.

I've taken down trees w/ 7.62.

With the Soviet 7.62 x 39mm?

I can see it with the 7.62 x 51mm NATO.

I'm waiting for the XM8 testing to finish. I think it will be great. Apparently, the 5.56 ammo is lightened by only using brass bases and polymer walls. Lighter is better when you have to carry around as much ammo as you can.

I'm waiting for the XM8 testing to finish. I think it will be great. Apparently, the 5.56 ammo is lightened by only using brass bases and polymer walls. Lighter is better when you have to carry around as much ammo as you can.

I don't see how the XM8 is an actual improvement (or a substantial improvement) over the M4 series.

I'd rather have the OICW.

Got to go with the Old Skool AK-47.

There's a reason so many have been produced.

I don't see how the XM8 is an actual improvement (or a substantial improvement) over the M4 series.

I'd rather have the OICW.
Isn't the big difference that the XM8 is operated with a piston and the M-16 derivatives aren't?

And the OICW is supposed to be something like 6 Kg compared to the 2.7 Kg for the XM8.

Isn't the big difference that the XM8 is operated with a piston and the M-16 derivatives aren't?

And the OICW is supposed to be something like 6 Kg compared to the 2.7 Kg for the XM8.

I've been following the testing (some of the testers are posting over on lightfighter's forums). It apparently is not a substantial improvement over the M-16 series. Certainly no more deadly or reliable.

The OICW's weight is not an issue. A bit bulky. But the 25mm bursting ammunition IS a major improvement in lethality.

With an OICW, anyone who is remotely familiar with how to operate the sighting system can shoot people as accurately (in terms of lethality) as a trained sniper. No real advantage in fighting inside a building, but much more lethal outside.

Just a brief question for all you gun lovers out there.

What, in your opinion, is the best assault rifle in the world, and why do you believe it to be so?

Whichever one is the deadliest is the best.

The M4 is inherently less accurate than the M16 because the barrel is too short for the cartridge. The AK47's are nice and fun too shoot, and utterly reliable, but suffer from being designed for a medium range cartridge and reliability rather than accuracy.

The M1 on the other hand is utterly reliable, and uses an utterly reliable cartridge that has long reach and fantastic penetration.

The M1 doesn't qualify as an "Assault Rifle". Which by definition has to be select fire, allowing for full auto. Only the M4, M16, and AK47's mentioned so far would count. The M14 would count, but most people aren't likely to get their hands on one of those.

FAL's are really nice, but you'll never see one as an "assault rifle".

It has to be the EM-02, its a shame that the silly american claim that .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm was the smallest round they would ever consider using effectively killed it...

As for weapons that actually made it into service i would ahve to lump for the G3/HK33 series

The M4 is inherently less accurate than the M16 because the barrel is too short for the cartridge. The AK47's are nice and fun too shoot, and utterly reliable, but suffer from being designed for a medium range cartridge and reliability rather than accuracy.

The M1 on the other hand is utterly reliable, and uses an utterly reliable cartridge that has long reach and fantastic penetration.

The M1 doesn't qualify as an "Assault Rifle". Which by definition has to be select fire, allowing for full auto. Only the M4, M16, and AK47's mentioned so far would count. The M14 would count, but most people aren't likely to get their hands on one of those.

FAL's are really nice, but you'll never see one as an "assault rifle".

I know which one is heavier, and I know which one I get more rounds per unit weight with.

I've carried an M-21 before (the accurized version of the M-14), and while it's nice, and it's definitely more lethal, it is not quick to use nor is it or its ammunition what I would consider light.

It is sweeter to shoot - but I digress.

There's no two ways about it, the M1/M1A/M14 is the best thing ever for putting aimed rounds on target. The ammo weighs a ton. So does the rifle.

What are people's thoughts regarding bullpup rifle design, such as the GIAT FAMAS or Vector CR-21 ?

What are people's thoughts regarding bullpup rifle design, such as the GIAT FAMAS or Vector CR-21 ?
I like bullpups conceptually, but there really hasn't been one that I would choose yet.

What are people's thoughts regarding bullpup rifle design, such as the GIAT FAMAS or Vector CR-21 ?

It's not really necessary.

I do not trust the locking system on the FAMAS. If you're not using the steel case ammunition the French issue, and you are firing brass case (which most other ammunition will be), the rifle has a tendency to prematurely unlock and burst the case.

Always a good thing to be happenning right next to your head on that bullpup stock.

<snip>The M1 doesn't qualify as an "Assault Rifle". Which by definition has to be select fire, allowing for full auto.
Only by today's Media Definition. Full Auto/Select fire is a nonsensical distinction. An "Assault Weapon" is whatever you feel comfortable "Assaulting" with. For most "charge-the-enemy" assaults I would rather have a semi-auto, box-fed shotgun with bayonet than a rifle anyway.

Select fire is over-rated. Great for sub-guns and clearing rooms, but IMO a waste of ammo in an MBR.

Two differant rifles being bandied about here - the full size battle rifle, which is usually not select fire, and chambered for a long distance cartridge, such as the M-14 and clones, the FAL, the Garand, etc. An original M-14 semi auto only would be a wonderful rifle, (there was a very limited rin made for civilians years ago, worht a fortune nowadays. The FAL, as long as it's not a rework from Century's drunken monkeys, would be another top pick.
The so called "assault rifle", a genre begun with the German MP44 and STG44 and 45, is a mid sized rifle, firing a catridge smack between a pistol caliber, and a full sized rifle caliber, such as the 7.62x39, 5.56, etc, those being the big two. Of the two, I like the Russian cartridge better than the other. The AK in a non traditionl guise, like with the Galil furniture, (to avoid the "terrorist look), is an excellent choice for such a rifle. Please remember the true assault rifle is select fire, i.e., fully automatic and semi automatic. A semi auto only rifle is not an assault rifle.
The bullpup design is neat, but the only one I like is the Steyr AUG, even if it is 5.56mm - it's just one cool looking and functioning rifle!

It's not really necessary.

I do not trust the locking system on the FAMAS. If you're not using the steel case ammunition the French issue, and you are firing brass case (which most other ammunition will be), the rifle has a tendency to prematurely unlock and burst the case.

Always a good thing to be happenning right next to your head on that bullpup stock.

Could this be as a result of being dropped too much? :D

Could this be as a result of being dropped too much? :D
It's the design of the locking mechanism - it's merely a cam that the bolt has difficulty in overcoming. The cam has mechanical advantage, but not a true lock. The range of ammunition that can be safely fired in the FAMAS is extremely narrow - essentially, anything outside of steel case French ammunition, and you're looking for a way to redesign your face.

The French are famous for prematurely unlocking firearms. Their MG, the AAT is famous for killing its operators because of their odd idea of locking.

While the Germans seemed to get lock delaying right, the French haven't gotten it down even now.

Two differant rifles being bandied about here -
The so called "assault rifle", a genre begun with the German MP44 and STG44 and 45, is a mid sized rifle, firing a catridge smack between a pistol caliber, and a full sized rifle caliber, such as the 7.62x39, 5.56, etc
IMO the problem isn't the distinction, but the lack of one in the Militaries. There are very few MBRs issued anymore - it's all "Assault" guns.

Assault guns are good in Jungles, and maybe some urban settings (though not building-clearing IMO). I like using the right tool for the job - a screwdriver is not a chisel. I'll take an MBR for the field and a Sub Gun for house-to-house.

As for M14s... http://www.fulton-armory.com/MARifles.htm Agreed. And have Fun!

FAL's are really nice

Oh yes they are! My favorite firearm!

Oh yes they are! My favorite firearm!
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as24f-e.htm

It would certainly be one of my choices.

This is a good one:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/fal_dsa_sa58osw.jpg

Or the G3: http://world.guns.ru/assault/as12-e.htm
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/hk_g3ka4.jpg

And they're still .308/7.62x51

Actually, one of the best house clearing firearms hasn't been manufactured for some time, IMHO, with a hot semi-armor peircing bullet design, and a 72 round drum available - the PPsH41. Saw a picture of one of our troops posing with one they found in Iraq. Lots of unique and interesting firearms found there....
An "assault gun" is an armored self propelledtank gun gun, like a STuGIII, or the ill fated American T-28 superheavy.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as24f-e.htm

It would certainly be one of my choices.

This is a good one:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/fal_dsa_sa58osw.jpg

Or the G3: http://world.guns.ru/assault/as12-e.htm
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/hk_g3ka4.jpg

And they're still .308/7.62x51

G3 for me, please!

An "assault gun" is an armored self propelledtank gun gun, like a STuGIII, or the ill fated American T-28 superheavy.Unless it is an "Assault Shotgun"... ;)

The absolute best rifle HAS to be the Swiss SIG 550. Based on AK47 type action, made with the traditional Swiss perfectionist quality, using modern non-corrosive materials, with excellent reputation for accuracy, compatible with all NATO optics. This is the definition of perfection as far as assault rifles go.

Then again, I hear some good stuff about G36, the Singaporean SAR21 and the new Israeli Tavor...

G3 for me, please!
When I was an FO and my Hide in the Fulda Gap was ajacent to an FRG FDC unit, I arranged to swap my M16/203 for their Track G3. As an FO I wanted the Range and they wanted the 203 (Their Personal weapons were SMGs)

I like the G3. Maybe not the Best, but I'll sure take one.

A friend and I had a shoot-off/cook-off competition to see who could fire more rounds on target at 100 yards from a standing position - me with my M-4 (actually a semi-auto version from Rock River Arms) and he with his AK (Romanian manufacture semi-auto).

After about 300 rounds, both guns were really hot. And when we got to a little over 500, his front handguards started to smoke continuously. And a couple of magazines later, they burst into flames.

My M4 was really, really hot. But nothing melted, and nothing was in flames.

Assault guns are good in Jungles, and maybe some urban settings (though not building-clearing IMO). I like using the right tool for the job - a screwdriver is not a chisel. I'll take an MBR for the field and a Sub Gun for house-to-house.
There's a lot of truth in it, but a soldier never really knows where he may find himself, so his first and most important need is for an all-around gun.

By the way, it is an interesting question whether an MBR age is well and truly over, or if we will yet see their significant comeback. On one hand, as far as firepower goes, there is no longer a need for a long-range rifle as a general issue. Distant threats are easier and more effectively taken care of by using grenade launchers or other heavy weapons, or by calling in artillery or air support. On the other hand, the increasing concern for possible civilian casualties may reverse the trend back towards refining the World war I style long range rifle shooting skills.

There's a lot of truth in it, but a soldier never really knows where he may find himself, so his first and most important need is for an all-around gun.

By the way, it is an interesting question whether an MBR age is well and truly over, or if we will yet see their significant comeback. On one hand, as far as firepower goes, there is no longer a need for a long-range rifle as a general issue. Distant threats are easier and more effectively taken care of by using grenade launchers or other heavy weapons, or by calling in artillery or air support. On the other hand, the increasing concern for possible civilian casualties may reverse the trend back towards refining the World war I style long range rifle shooting skills.
Which is why I posted the two pictures I did... both are select-fire "Assault Weapon" variants of MBRs. ;)

Which is why I posted the two pictures I did... both are select-fire "Assault Weapon" variants of MBRs. ;)
But they're still .308. You don't really need a caliber that powerful in a select-fire weapon for medium range. It has more drawbacks than advantages. It is not accidental that the development of assault rifles today is towards increasingly small calibers that compensate for low per bullet lethality by firing deadly accurate double- or triple taps. (G11, An94)

But they're still .308. You don't really need a caliber that powerful in a select-fire weapon for medium range. It has more drawbacks than advantages. It is not accidental that the development of assault rifles today is towards increasingly small calibers that compensate for low per bullet lethality by firing deadly accurate double- or triple taps. (G11, An94)

Except they're starting to go back up in caliber (6.8mm). I'm not saying that something close to the .223 or .270 isn't better than the .308, but that .308 has a decent record.

Except they're starting to go back up in caliber (6.8mm). I'm not saying that something close to the .223 or .270 isn't better than the .308, but that .308 has a decent record.
Plus, the G3's still legal to hunt with! (the caliber anyway...)

It is not accidental that the development of assault rifles today is towards increasingly small calibers that compensate for low per bullet lethality by firing deadly accurate double- or triple taps. (G11, An94)

Considering the G11 has been a failed project and the AN94 is not actually being deployed with the Russian army, I would like to point you to the .308 SCAR.

This site: http://world.guns.ru/assault/as00-e.htm is really the bees knees when it comes to discussing this topic.

Have fun with it.

Except they're starting to go back up in caliber (6.8mm). I'm not saying that something close to the .223 or .270 isn't better than the .308, but that .308 has a decent record.
It most certainly does- but the nature of the battlefield is changing. During World War I, rifles and riflemen's skills were of paramount importance. Today, there are better tools in the box for reaching out and touching your enemy, and a soldier's rifle is, in my opinion, increasingly becoming something of a PDW.

Considering the G11 has been a failed project and the AN94 is not actually being deployed with the Russian army, I would like to point you to the .308 SCAR.
The G11 was a very radical concept, the first of its kind, and it most certainly had its flaws. However, according to the Modern Firearms website linked to by Syniks, the G11 project was cancelled primarily for financial reasons (reunification of Germany put them under a serious financial strain) and because of the NATO policy for unification of ammunition and magazines.

The same with AN94. Modern Firearms notes that the reasons for (temporary) non-adoption of AN94 are primarily financial, yet the rifle has become a "professional's choice" among the elite Russian forces.

The .308 SCAR-H is clearly not intended as a general issue, but as a sniper variant.

Modern Firearms notes that the reasons for (temporary) non-adoption of AN94 are primarily financial, yet the rifle has become a "professional's choice" among the elite Russian forces.

The author also states, both on the site and in his book, "Assault Rifles of the World", that said Russian elite forces prefer to use various 7.62*39mm rifles.

He never states that the rifle has become a weapon of choice, only that it "can" be come one.

On the other hand, they do use this:

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as09-e.htm

The author also states, both on the site and in his book, "Assault Rifles of the World", that said Russian elite forces prefer to use various 7.62*39mm rifles.

He never states that the rifle has become a weapon of choice, only that it "can" be come one.

Exact quote from the entry on AN94 Abakan:

At the present time the AN-94 is considered as the "professionals' choice", and is used in limited numbers by the elite forces of the Russian Army, police and Internal Affairs Ministry.

Is being used, mind you. Not "can" be used.


On the other hand, they do use this:

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as09-e.htm
The Groza is also a special purpose weapon, not general issue. The general issue army weapons in Russia are chambered in the 5.45 caliber.

Plus, the G3's still legal to hunt with! (the caliber anyway...)

So's the .223--at least in WI. :) Which means the 6.8mm will be, too.

It most certainly does- but the nature of the battlefield is changing. During World War I, rifles and riflemen's skills were of paramount importance. Today, there are better tools in the box for reaching out and touching your enemy, and a soldier's rifle is, in my opinion, increasingly becoming something of a PDW.


No doubt there.

I'm a big fan of the Famas... While there are some problems, what gun has none? Making such a working Bullpup, with such few real flaws...

Though I much prefer .308/7.62x51mm, and would take an M14 Sopmod over much else...