NationStates Jolt Archive

Should it be invidual nations or an international effort? Surely if all the nations worked together we could pull of lunar base or advanced space craft more than one nation could work alone. Depleting energy sources, pollution and war will eventually cause us to band together for everyones benefit. It should not be just for the gain of US, Russia or China. But for all of mankind.

So should it be National or an International effort beyond what is currently in use.

Should it be invidual nations or an international effort? Surely if all the nations worked together we could pull of lunar base or advanced space craft more than one nation could work alone. Depleting energy sources, pollution and war will eventually cause us to band together for everyones benefit. It should not be just for the gain of US, Russia or China. But for all of mankind.

So should it be National or an International effort beyond what is currently in use.
Yeah, but then we'd have to share sensitive technology related to our spy satelites and space-based weapons.

Yeah, but then we'd have to share sensitive technology related to our spy satelites and space-based weapons.

Not necessarily. Each nation could focus on a different system.

Perhaps competition can spurn innovation more than cooperation can.

Case in point: The Race to the Moon

Perhaps competition can spurn innovation more than cooperation can.

Case in point: The Race to the Moon

The problem right now is that there is no benefit for any nation to get into competition with the USA in space research - Russia can't really afford to, and China would like to, but they're miles behind.

Thus the USA doesn't really feel the need to spend a lot of money on it if there's no "foe" to be defeated and no prestige gain as a result of this.

I have a feeling that the US will soon be in a race with China to get to the moon.

I have a feeling that the US will soon be in a race with China to get to the moon.

Yes, but the USA could do it in a year or two if they so wanted to. As it is, it'll take the Chinese a decade or so to get the technology. And the US likely won't bother until then.

I have a feeling that the US will soon be in a race with China to get to the moon.
Um, we already won that one before the Chinese ever launched a rocket that wasn't powered by blackpowder.

China produces more than 200,000 engineers a year. The US produces 50,000 a year. Even though China will collapse from a lack of power, and there fore not much of a threat in the long run to the US. But still it would benefit everyone if we all worked together. Oh no, we may have to share secrets that we use to spy and destroy other nations. No more weapons, but we do gain enlightenment. Damn it, no more reason to kill!! We cannot have that.

China produces more than 200,000 engineers a year. The US produces 50,000 a year. Even though China will collapse from a lack of power, and there fore not much of a threat in the long run to the US. But still it would benefit everyone if we all worked together. Oh no, we may have to share secrets that we use to spy and destroy other nations. No more weapons, but we do gain enlightenment. Damn it, no more reason to kill!! We cannot have that.
Much of our civilian technological development is adapted from military technology. If we have no reasons to kill each other I think progress will slow down.

Um, we already won that one before the Chinese ever launched a rocket that wasn't powered by blackpowder.

I think he meant a moon base.

I think he meant a moon base.
Oh, Ok. He only said a race to the moon, so I guess you can understand why I was confused.

Oh, Ok. He only said a race to the moon, so I guess you can understand why I was confused.

Well, i'm not entirely sure, but that was my interpretation. :)

I think once Earth becomes to overcrowded and we need the rescources from space. Also want to add economically feasible tech to do such things. That is when we will venture out in masse. The stars are humans future. We will get there but its difficult to say when.

I still reckon we should keep people on Earth. I'd hate to inflict the human race on the rest of the universe.

Should it be invidual nations or an international effort? Surely if all the nations worked together we could pull of lunar base or advanced space craft more than one nation could work alone. Depleting energy sources, pollution and war will eventually cause us to band together for everyones benefit. It should not be just for the gain of US, Russia or China. But for all of mankind.

So should it be National or an International effort beyond what is currently in use.

Well, unless you want the US, Russia, China and India to divide space up amoungst themselves you will need some international regulations. Dont cha ya think.

Well, unless you want the US, Russia, China and India to divide space up amoungst themselves you will need some international regulations. Dont cha ya think.

Space is pretty big. I think there's enough space for all those who want some.

And then what we create further division. And that division will create more reason to war over one planet or asteroid. If you claim it in the name of All Mankind then no such division exists.

Space is pretty big. I think there's enough space for all those who want some.
Space belongs to Russia and the USA. We got their first, we own it.

Space belongs to Russia and the USA. We got their first, we own it.
Stick a flag on it and that part's yours. The rest is open game.

Space belongs to Russia and the USA. We got their first, we own it.

Nobody 'owns' space. Nobody 'owns' the moon. International law prohibits it.

Nobody 'owns' space. Nobody 'owns' the moon. International law prohibits it.
There was also a treaty that no one owns Antarctica...

Nobody 'owns' space. Nobody 'owns' the moon. International law prohibits it.
Since when does International law apply to my country?

Perhaps competition can spurn innovation more than cooperation can.

Case in point: The Race to the Moon

I was just about to post the same comment when I noticed you had already made it :)

I think we should sort out Earth before we start trying our hand with the rest of the Universe.

I think we should sort out Earth before we start trying our hand with the rest of the Universe.

We have done enough to the Earth, it is time we were moving on.

I think once Earth becomes to overcrowded and we need the rescources from space. Also want to add economically feasible tech to do such things. That is when we will venture out in masse. The stars are humans future. We will get there but its difficult to say when.
Can you say 'space colonies?'
Mobile Suit Gundam, here we come! :D

Yes, but the USA could do it in a year or two if they so wanted to. As it is, it'll take the Chinese a decade or so to get the technology. And the US likely won't bother until then.

Actually no, we couldn't go to the moon in a year or 2.

Should it be invidual nations or an international effort? Surely if all the nations worked together we could pull of lunar base or advanced space craft more than one nation could work alone. Depleting energy sources, pollution and war will eventually cause us to band together for everyones benefit. It should not be just for the gain of US, Russia or China. But for all of mankind.

So should it be National or an International effort beyond what is currently in use.
A little competition, now and then, is a good thing. [ with apologies to Thomas Paine ]

I think once Earth becomes to overcrowded and we need the rescources from space. Also want to add economically feasible tech to do such things. That is when we will venture out in masse. The stars are humans future. We will get there but its difficult to say when.

Thing is, by this time, it may already be too late. *warily eyes huge reserves of nukes in the United States and Russia* We therefore must advance our space technology as much as we can now, in case we need it in the future.

Indeed, I think that the journey into space should be an international cooperative effort. That's why I like the EU's budding space program; its an example of how much more can be accomplished through cooperation. Best that we go out and raid the asteroid belt for materials together, so no wars start over a chunk of rock in the middle of nowhere- especially since space is a nasty place to have a fight.

Perhaps competition can spurn innovation more than cooperation can.

Case in point: The Race to the Moon
And how many people died in the quest for that? The Russians managed to kill xx people (I'm not sure how many, but it's in double figures) before Gagarin managed to survive a space flight.

but the real question remains people:

Who will get to the moon first: Starbucks, Mcdonalds or Walmart?

but the real question remains people:

Who will get to the moon first: Starbucks, Mcdonalds or Walmart?

McDonalds would be my bet.

McDonalds would be my bet.

I dunno...

You know that starbucks creed includes "I swear that there will be a starbucks on every corner..". They stick to it pretty well.

The private sector will proceed much faster than any National Space Programme once commercial space exploration really starts up.

Agrred. It took a massive govt. investment to get to the new world. But after it became a financially sound area to explore colonization began in earnest.

Actually no, we couldn't go to the moon in a year or 2.

Why not? Political considerations aside; You did it 36 years ago, you could do it again in a short period of time if you really wanted to spend the money.

Why not? Political considerations aside; You did it 36 years ago, you could do it again in a short period of time if you really wanted to spend the money.

He does have a point. We have the plans for the Saturn V, as well as several hundred of them lying around in the Midwest (although admittedly, we'd have to take the nuclear warheads off first). Given American manufacturing capacity, I would hardly consider it beyond our capabilities to produce a Saturn V with moon lander in a year. Another year would probably yield us a humongous number of improvements, as well; I wonder what a moon team could do with modern tools and knowledge that they couldn't last time we were there? At the very least, landing a rover like those on Mars should yield some interesting results, as would stationing a remote-controlled observatory on the far side of the moon.

Speaking of the Mars rovers, the bloody things are still going, a year and a half longer than they were designed to! Yay, NASA finally doing things right!

And how many people died in the quest for that? The Russians managed to kill xx people (I'm not sure how many, but it's in double figures) before Gagarin managed to survive a space flight.

Do you have any evidence for that claim?

Nobody 'owns' space. Nobody 'owns' the moon. International law prohibits it.


not quite right. There is a treaty which says no country can lay claim to places like the moon. However, if you or I got there under our own power then we would not be bound by that treaty.

Why not? Political considerations aside; You did it 36 years ago, you could do it again in a short period of time if you really wanted to spend the money.

It didn't take us 2 years to do it either. It took 7 years to get to the moon and back.

I still reckon we should keep people on Earth. I'd hate to inflict the human race on the rest of the universe.
I believe that the human race is part of the universe's struggle toward self-awareness. If we do not increasingly move into space, we will be partially defeating our reason for existing. This is the same reason why we as a race must grow beyond our infancy and learn to value, not only human life, but all life wherever it's found and whatever form it takes.

but the real question remains people:

Who will get to the moon first: Starbucks, Mcdonalds or Walmart?
No. The question is who will get to Mars first. Definately not Walmart, they are far from being worldwide. My bet is Starbucks.

Do you have any evidence for that claim?
No, but give me a few years to learn Russian, then I'll go to Moscow, take a look at the newly opened Soviet archives, and find it for you.
Gagarin made the "first manned space flight" in 1961. False. In 1960, another Soviet man died on re-entry to Earth.
The Soviet's space program started before Stalin died - so at least 8 years before Gagarin returned to Earth. Man landed on the moon in 1969, less than 10 years after JFK had said he wanted a man on the moon by the end of the decade. In that ten years, several Americans died in pursuit of this goal. Do you really think the Soviet Union managed to kill nobody?

And that's directly.

How many Soviet scientists do you think were taken into the Gulag system, or simply executed, because the Soviet authorities felt that it was unsafe for them to be working on a militarily sensitive issue?

I believe that the human race is part of the universe's struggle toward self-awareness. If we do not increasingly move into space, we will be partially defeating our reason for existing. This is the same reason why we as a race must grow beyond our infancy and learn to value, not only human life, but all life wherever it's found and whatever form it takes.

I completely agree with this.

It should not be just for the gain of US, Russia or China. But for all of mankind.
Yes, and my country can provide polenta and other corn products.
But really, are you aware that Romania sent a man into space on a Soviet mission in the 80s? We're amazing (in your face, Nepal).

Space belongs to Russia and the USA. We got their first, we own it.
Russia? You mean the USSR. So it should be Russia, Belarus, the Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Moldova, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan.

No,

Thought not.

but give me a few years to learn Russian, then I'll go to Moscow, take a look at the newly opened Soviet archives, and find it for you.

I just can't wait the see the results :)

Gagarin made the "first manned space flight" in 1961. False. In 1960, another Soviet man died on re-entry to Earth.

Again. Evidence please.

The Soviet's space program started before Stalin died - so at least 8 years before Gagarin returned to Earth. Man landed on the moon in 1969, less than 10 years after JFK had said he wanted a man on the moon by the end of the decade. In that ten years, several Americans died in pursuit of this goal. Do you really think the Soviet Union managed to kill nobody?

And that's directly.

In space? No. the first soviet death was Vladimir Komarov when his Soyuz 1 space craft crashed following re-entry due to a chute failure on 24th April 1967. There were of course some ground accidents, most notable being the rocket refueling/repair explosion in Tyuratam, USSR in 1960.

How many Soviet scientists do you think were taken into the Gulag system, or simply executed, because the Soviet authorities felt that it was unsafe for them to be working on a militarily sensitive issue?

Very few, the russians looked after their rocket scientists just like the Germans had during WWII.

In space? No. the first soviet death was Vladimir Komarov when his Soyuz 1 space craft crashed following re-entry due to a chute failure on 24th April 1967. There were of course some ground accidents, most notable being the rocket refueling/repair explosion in Tyuratam, USSR in 1960.

Proof please?

[quote]Very few, the russians looked after their rocket scientists just like the Germans had during WWII.

Most of the ones they had were captured Germans. Proof for your statement please?

In space? No. the first soviet death was Vladimir Komarov when his Soyuz 1 space craft crashed following re-entry due to a chute failure on 24th April 1967. There were of course some ground accidents, most notable being the rocket refueling/repair explosion in Tyuratam, USSR in 1960.
Sorry...can you just point me to the part of my post where I specified 'in space'? I can't seem to find it...:( :p
It would seem you've just provided me with proof. Thank you.

[QUOTE=Brenchley]In space? No. the first soviet death was Vladimir Komarov when his Soyuz 1 space craft crashed following re-entry due to a chute failure on 24th April 1967. There were of course some ground accidents, most notable being the rocket refueling/repair explosion in Tyuratam, USSR in 1960.

Proof please?



Most of the ones they had were captured Germans. Proof for your statement please?

You will find many histories of the Soviet space programme in print or on the web. For a start you can read this which is an excerpt from a book: http://abrax.isiline.it/servizio/disasters.htm

The following article is also interesting: http://english.pravda.ru/main/2003/02/26/43726.html

There was also those russians who died because of pressure loss since the Russian government did not want to waste money by providing pressure suits to its astronauts.

There was also those russians who died because of pressure loss since the Russian government did not want to waste money by providing pressure suits to its astronauts.

7th June 1971. Georgi Dobrovolsky, Viktor Patsayev and Vladislav Volkov died during re-entry when a faulty valve on their Soyuz 11 spacecraft led to cabin de-pressurization.

The Soyuz had been designed as a "shirt sleeve" craft for three men. Following the disaster it was redesigned to hold only two men who would now wear spacesuits durin glaunch and landing.

At no time has a soviet craft flown without spacesuites for its crew.

Ah yes that would be them. I do not remember exact names since Russian names are rather hard to spell XD