NationStates Jolt Archive


My view on gay marriage....

Neo Kervoskia
21-10-2005, 21:52
Well, here's my alternative view of gay marriage. It draws from Hayekian liberalism. It's flawed, but I'm working on it. (I posted this on my blog originally, so that explain's the format.)

There is much debate on the issue of same-sex marriage. The bulk of this culture war is being fought by two extremes; those in favor of preserving the institution in its current state and those in favor of alterating the definition of marriage. Proponents of these goals require legislation and that most effective of instruments, the Supreme Court. No matter which view is taken, the state is used to define the definition of a cultural institution. The effects of either decision are rarely taken into account. I do not hold either view on the issue. Instead I hold an alternative view that is usually never considered.

Tradition is created by human interaction. They evolve, as we do, with the times. They are not centrally planned, but are the result of human experimentation in society. The governing body did not simply decree that religion must become a tradition. It evolved and soon became widespread amongst the people of the ancient world. Art was not centrally planned by the state, it is a construct that was the result of free human interaction. To attempt to centrally plan tradition is the same as trying to centrally plan the economy. Institutions have certain advantages that it would not normally have if not for the state's intervention.

By legalizing same-sex marriage, the state is altering the definition of it. In effect they are attempting to create a new tradition. This is a slight cultural revolution, not the evolution that occurs when social institutions are left to the free human interaction. This also had darker implications. By allowing the state to change a tradition, one is signally to the state that it has the authority over social life.

However, this does not mean that a tradition should be preserved. The other view on the issue is that the institution of marriage is so sacred and vital to society that it could not bare being changed. The consequences would have an adverse effect on society. Majoritism also plays a part in this stance, but it shall not be discussed. By using the state to preserve a tradition, it creates resentment towards it, which is counter-productive and can prove to be quite problematic. The state is, in effect, stalling social evolution. If changes to the definition of marriage are made outside of the state and become accepted, but the state refuses to recognize it, it will cause anger towards the governing body and could possibly to lead to revolt.

Instead of using the state to centrally plan or preserve tradition, it should be left to what created it; free human interaction. Same-sex marriage, and marriage in general, should neither be restricted nor changed by the state. Social evolution will do so. Resentment against tradition will not be as rampant and the process will occur more naturally and smoothly. Benefits for married couples provide an incentive for both preservation and change and should thus be eliminated. If one wishes to have certain insurance benefits because of marital status, then one can discuss it with ones insurance agency. Since marriage is such a widespread tradition, it it mat induce insurance agencies to include marriage clauses or benefits to their policies in order to increase profits and to fill the void left by the state.
Super-power
21-10-2005, 21:59
So to sum it all up, just get the government out of marriage altogether? I agree, if this is the point you make
The Noble Men
21-10-2005, 21:59
So in other words the Supreme Court should say:

"Let them do it if they want, we wont throw them in jail for it".

Am I close?
Neo Kervoskia
21-10-2005, 22:13
Yes, you are correct. Here's a bottle of whiskey for you both.
Czardas
21-10-2005, 22:16
So to sum it all up, just get the government out of marriage altogether? I agree, if this is the point you make
That is a good summary. It means I don't have to read any of Neo K's post. :p

Oh, and btw, I agree.
Dishonorable Scum
21-10-2005, 22:18
The problem is that the state is already involved in marriage, so getting the state out of the marriage business would be quite a revolution itself. I agree with you that the state should get out of the business of defining marriage; however, that in itself would make a number of changes both in marriage and in society as a whole.

:p
Cluichstan
21-10-2005, 22:19
I don't give a rat's ass if someone wants to marry a hamster, a coffee table, or even a rat's ass. Doesn't affect me one bit.
The Noble Men
21-10-2005, 22:20
Yes, you are correct. Here's a bottle of whiskey for you both.

*checks label*

Holy crap, this is my favorite! Thanks!

*Drinks the lot*

*Dies*
The Noble Men
21-10-2005, 22:21
I don't give a rat's ass if someone wants to marry a hamster, a coffee table, or even a rat's ass. Doesn't affect me one bit.

Unless of course the hamster, coffe table or rat belongs to you.
The Bloated Goat
21-10-2005, 22:45
Why not just do away with "legal" marriages. Marriage is a religious institution. Why does the government have to issue a license?
Neo Kervoskia
21-10-2005, 22:46
The problem is that the state is already involved in marriage, so getting the state out of the marriage business would be quite a revolution itself. I agree with you that the state should get out of the business of defining marriage; however, that in itself would make a number of changes both in marriage and in society as a whole.

:p
Therein lies the problem. However, the change would be gradual. As I stated earlier, evolution not revolution. Leaving society's traditions to free human intercation would require going over the mountain that is the state. Legal marriage is what I'm speaking of, which is tied in part to marriage as a tradition. By controlly the former, you in effect attempt to plan the latter.
Czardas
21-10-2005, 23:08
*checks label*

Holy crap, this is my favorite! Thanks!

*Drinks the lot*

*Dies*TNM...wait, you're only 16 and you already have a favorite brand of whiskey? *shakes head* The depravity of youth these days, I ask you...
Tekania
21-10-2005, 23:19
Yes, you are correct. Here's a bottle of whiskey for you both.

We agree... I've been all for keeping the government out of our bedrooms for sometime.

Legislating marriage, is a sin in my book.
As is using the term "Christian" for political motivations.
Jocabia
21-10-2005, 23:19
Well, here's my alternative view of gay marriage. It draws from Hayekian liberalism. It's flawed, but I'm working on it. (I posted this on my blog originally, so that explain's the format.)

There is much debate on the issue of same-sex marriage. The bulk of this culture war is being fought by two extremes; those in favor of preserving the institution in its current state and those in favor of alterating the definition of marriage. Proponents of these goals require legislation and that most effective of instruments, the Supreme Court. No matter which view is taken, the state is used to define the definition of a cultural institution. The effects of either decision are rarely taken into account. I do not hold either view on the issue. Instead I hold an alternative view that is usually never considered.

Tradition is created by human interaction. They evolve, as we do, with the times. They are not centrally planned, but are the result of human experimentation in society. The governing body did not simply decree that religion must become a tradition. It evolved and soon became widespread amongst the people of the ancient world. Art was not centrally planned by the state, it is a construct that was the result of free human interaction. To attempt to centrally plan tradition is the same as trying to centrally plan the economy. Institutions have certain advantages that it would not normally have if not for the state's intervention.

By legalizing same-sex marriage, the state is altering the definition of it. In effect they are attempting to create a new tradition. This is a slight cultural revolution, not the evolution that occurs when social institutions are left to the free human interaction. This also had darker implications. By allowing the state to change a tradition, one is signally to the state that it has the authority over social life.

However, this does not mean that a tradition should be preserved. The other view on the issue is that the institution of marriage is so sacred and vital to society that it could not bare being changed. The consequences would have an adverse effect on society. Majoritism also plays a part in this stance, but it shall not be discussed. By using the state to preserve a tradition, it creates resentment towards it, which is counter-productive and can prove to be quite problematic. The state is, in effect, stalling social evolution. If changes to the definition of marriage are made outside of the state and become accepted, but the state refuses to recognize it, it will cause anger towards the governing body and could possibly to lead to revolt.

Instead of using the state to centrally plan or preserve tradition, it should be left to what created it; free human interaction. Same-sex marriage, and marriage in general, should neither be restricted nor changed by the state. Social evolution will do so. Resentment against tradition will not be as rampant and the process will occur more naturally and smoothly. Benefits for married couples provide an incentive for both preservation and change and should thus be eliminated. If one wishes to have certain insurance benefits because of marital status, then one can discuss it with ones insurance agency. Since marriage is such a widespread tradition, it it mat induce insurance agencies to include marriage clauses or benefits to their policies in order to increase profits and to fill the void left by the state.

See the point is that people who are proponents of same-sex marriage are trying to let free human interaction allow it to evolve. Any legislation or use of the Supreme Court is an effort to all same-sex couples access to the institution, not to require anyone to engage in it. The effort is centered on not regulating a basic right, marriage. The argument is specious that says we are redefining marriage. Social interaction has already 'redefined' it. We are simply campaigning for the state to not block this evolution.
The Noble Men
21-10-2005, 23:29
TNM...wait, you're only 16 and you already have a favorite brand of whiskey? *shakes head* The depravity of youth these days, I ask you...

Yup. Glenmorangie. (http://www.whisky.fr/contenu/img/1238.gif)

Whyte and Mackay (http://www.gdoshop.com/gdoshop/Assets/sake_images/640860_1.jpg) is a close second.

Never drink Famous Grouse (http://www.vinospritbolaget.com/images/famous_grouse.jpg). The only thing good about it is the adverts on T.V.

And having a favorite Whiskey is good. At least I don't have a favorite Alcopop.
H N Fiddlebottoms VIII
21-10-2005, 23:33
TNM...wait, you're only 16 and you already have a favorite brand of whiskey? *shakes head* The depravity of youth these days, I ask you...
I had a favorite Vodka by 15. (Which brand you ask? Why the brand with Vodka in it!)
On the other hand, I also made a deal with my parents that they would by my vodka and cigarettes provided that I quit both when I became 18. (Hell, I actually stick to that promise. OK, so I still surrender to the Russians every once in awhile, but I haven't smoked since 11:57 PM on the day before my 18th birthday).
The Noble Men
21-10-2005, 23:34
I had a favorite Vodka by 15. (Which brand you ask? Why the brand with Vodka in it!)
On the other hand, I also made a deal with my parents that they would by my vodka and cigarettes provided that I quit both when I became 18. (Hell, I actually stick to that promise. OK, so I still surrender to the Russians every once in awhile, but I haven't smoked since 11:57 PM on the day before my 18th birthday).

And how old are you now?
H N Fiddlebottoms VIII
21-10-2005, 23:40
And how old are you now?
19, and that makes me three years your senior, so don't you forget it!
Fine, yeah, my big accomplishment in life thus far has been going without a cigaretter for about a year and a half, and I only made it 5 months before cracking to the pull of Vodka (I'm a college student, and if there is one thing that popculture has alerted me too, it is that college students are expected to be drunk off their ass everyday).
Cluichstan
22-10-2005, 00:00
Why not just do away with "legal" marriages. Marriage is a religious institution. Why does the government have to issue a license?

Actually, marriage was originally -- at least in Western and Near Eastern cultures (e.g., Mesopotamian, Greco-Roman, et al.) -- a legal instituation aimed at ensuring "proper" inheritance. While early marriages often involved some sort of ceremony (what back then didn't?), the institution of marriage was later co-opted by religions, which then attached their own ceremonies.
Cluichstan
22-10-2005, 00:03
19, and that makes me three years your senior, so don't you forget it!


Damn kids... :p