NationStates Jolt Archive

Say it aint so Dorothy. I thought Canada was full of love and goodness. Ugly truth hidden by the populace exposed. Well now before a Canadian bash session begins I believe the US shares the bottom of the heap with our Canadian cousins. Read on....

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/10/18/canada.pollution.ap/index.html

I guess there must be a Team Canada...
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b283/jtkwon/ta0001.jpg

No, it's all excusable, like suppport of Warcriminal Chretien and Warcriminal Martin.

Whatever you say, Canada is perfect.

No, it's all excusable, like suppport of Warcriminal Chretien and Warcriminal Martin.

Whatever you say, Canada is perfect.

Warcriminal Chretien and Warcriminal Martin are the leaders of Team Canada!

Canada! Fuck yeah!

I believe that I have explained this before, whenever someone steps out of line they are automatically USian. That means that all of those Canadian companies are actually US Corporate Fat Cats destroying the world and killing black babies for their own nefarious purposes. Sure, they may pay Canadian taxes, say "eh", technically exist north of the border, and eat funny bacon, but they are really just more pig-bastard USians.

Warcriminal Chretien and Warcriminal Martin are the leaders of Team Canada!

Canada! Fuck yeah!

I take it this thread is not intended to be a serious discussion of what our respective countries can do to solve the problem?

This is just another example of how the Liberals like to talk the talk of improving the environment but other than sign treaties do nothing about it. They are happy to "Trade" carbon credits with less-developed countries and join ranks with the Conservatives and claim that we're too northern and big a country to reduce our energy usage further. Which is utter crap, of course.

Repeat after me:

Invest in green energy.
Give tax rebates on energy efficient vehicles.
All cities should implement "Air Care" programs to get beaters fixed or replaced.
Tax rebates on energy and water efficient appliances. And low-flow toilets.
City bylaws requiring energy and water efficient appliances, low-flow toilets etc in all new buildings.
"Blue box" recycling in all cities.
"Green box" recycling programs.
Tax incentives for large buildings (corporate buildings, apartments, condos, etc) to incorporate solar panels into their architecture, or perhaps city bylaws to encourage it. Allow excess power generated by these panels to be sold back onto the grid.

And I'll stop there, although I once listed off 40 different things the gov't, homeowners, businesses, the oil patch, cities, etc could do to help us meet our Kyoto commitments.

There's no lack of ideas, it's lack of leadership and commitment.

I knew that. Canada pollutes so much that in some canadian towns, there is never a day without smog advisories.

Repeat after me:

Invest in green energy.
Give tax rebates on energy efficient vehicles.
All cities should implement "Air Care" programs to get beaters fixed or replaced.
Tax rebates on energy and water efficient appliances. And low-flow toilets.
City bylaws requiring energy and water efficient appliances, low-flow toilets etc in all new buildings.
"Blue box" recycling in all cities.
"Green box" recycling programs.
Tax incentives for large buildings (corporate buildings, apartments, condos, etc) to incorporate solar panels into their architecture, or perhaps city bylaws to encourage it. Allow excess power generated by these panels to be sold back onto the grid.

And I'll stop there, although I once listed off 40 different things the gov't, homeowners, businesses, the oil patch, cities, etc could do to help us meet our Kyoto commitments.

There's no lack of ideas, it's lack of leadership and commitment.

Yes, the US is doing all of those right now, but we are not lead by Warcriminal Martin, so it doesn't count.

Invest in green energy.
People in the US already do.
Give tax rebates on energy efficient vehicles.
Already a US policy.
All cities should implement "Air Care" programs to get beaters fixed or replaced.
Most major US urban areas (including mine) do this.
Tax rebates on energy and water efficient appliances. And low-flow toilets.
The low-flow (or Jammomatic) toilet has been a feature in US homes and buildings for nearly 10 years now.
City bylaws requiring energy and water efficient appliances, low-flow toilets etc in all new buildings.The low-flow (or Jammomatic) toilet has been a feature in US homes and buildings for nearly 10 years now. Same for low consumption lighting in businesses.
"Blue box" recycling in all cities.
Most major urban areas in the US, including mine.
"Green box" recycling programs.
Already doing it.
Tax incentives for large buildings (corporate buildings, apartments, condos, etc) to incorporate solar panels into their architecture, or perhaps city bylaws to encourage it. Allow excess power generated by these panels to be sold back onto the grid.
Already part of US tax code. Also, it's a Federal law - if I produce ANY power by ANY means, the grid has to take it - they have to buy it. That law has been around for DECADES.



BUT NOOOO! We're the evil United States full of nasty Republicans (like myself) and it's just not possible that anyone in the US owns a hybrid, does any recycling, or has any laws or tax codes that favor the environment.

Wake the F up, world. The US is not a complete slacker nation bent on world contamination.

Yes, the US is doing all of those right now, but we are not lead by Warcriminal Martin, so it doesn't count.
What's with the 'Warcriminal' thing?

The study, conducted at Simon Fraser University and released by the David Suzuki Foundation, rates Canada 28th among 30 countries in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

28 out of 30 doesn't exactly make us "among worst polluters." Just being in the top 30 puts us ahead of most of the pack.

Suzuki, a geneticist and one of Canada's most respected environmentalists, . . .

Funny to read an article in which David Suzuki needs to be introduced.

"The Canada we see in this report does not reflect the one we hold in our hearts," said Suzuki.

Typical. A Canadian liberal sees something he doesn't like and assumes that everyone else in Canada will support him in his dislike of it. Oh well.

The low-flow (or Jammomatic) toilet has been a feature in US homes and buildings for nearly 10 years now. Same for low consumption lighting in businesses.


Actually, this can be overcome by installing a "European" bathroom suite. Of course you have to import the toilet from the UK, but it's all good because they are approved by Warcriminal Blair.

The low-flow (or Jammomatic) toilet has been a feature in US homes and buildings for nearly 10 years now.

And, according to Dave Barry, Canada still uses the bigger, inefficient models.

What's with the 'Warcriminal' thing?

They are Warcriminals. Obviously.

Actually, this can be overcome by installing a "European" bathroom suite. Of course you have to import the toilet from the UK, but it's all good because they are approved by Warcriminal Blair.
I'm just not picking up on what you're laying down.

Wha-?

I take it this thread is not intended to be a serious discussion of what our respective countries can do to solve the problem?

This is just another example of how the Liberals like to talk the talk of improving the environment but other than sign treaties do nothing about it. They are happy to "Trade" carbon credits with less-developed countries and join ranks with the Conservatives and claim that we're too northern and big a country to reduce our energy usage further. Which is utter crap, of course.

Repeat after me:

Invest in green energy.
Give tax rebates on energy efficient vehicles.
All cities should implement "Air Care" programs to get beaters fixed or replaced.
Tax rebates on energy and water efficient appliances. And low-flow toilets.
City bylaws requiring energy and water efficient appliances, low-flow toilets etc in all new buildings.
"Blue box" recycling in all cities.
"Green box" recycling programs.
Tax incentives for large buildings (corporate buildings, apartments, condos, etc) to incorporate solar panels into their architecture, or perhaps city bylaws to encourage it. Allow excess power generated by these panels to be sold back onto the grid.

And I'll stop there, although I once listed off 40 different things the gov't, homeowners, businesses, the oil patch, cities, etc could do to help us meet our Kyoto commitments.

There's no lack of ideas, it's lack of leadership and commitment.

However I do agree with the above post on the majority of its context

REPEAT AFTER ME:

Kyoto treaty is a joke. Now if a better designed non-economy killing treaty were brought up I say lets take a look at it.

They are Warcriminals. Obviously.
How are Paul Martin or Jean Crouton Warciminals, obviously?

What's with the 'Warcriminal' thing?
* passes pipe *

When Chretien was PM, and Martin was his lackey, Canada bombed Serbia without UN permission (you know, Canada is just America's left arm).

They bombed a civilian TV station, and a Canadian F-18 is the one who hit that train on the bridge.

Lots of people here on the forum, like Stephistan, think that Canada and NATO acting without UN permission, and with the NATO ultimatum worded in a way that could not be compatible with the UN peacekeeping regs, is perfectly OK. In fact, Chretien and Martin have gone out of their way to say that any nation has an obligation to go around the UN and take unilateral action in the face of a humanitarian crisis.

That said, the same people say that it's evil of Bush to take unilateral action without UN Permission - and now that Iraq isn't about WMD (there weren't any), then Iraq is basically a humanitarian mission (save the people from Saddam and his massacres). Should be ok with Steph, right? Wrong.

Basically, for them, if Canada does it, it's fine. If the US does it, it's wrong.

In my book, I could care less - if your nation can do it and get away with it, why not?

But, if we're going to call Bush a war criminal, then Chretien and Martin get to go first.

Interestingly, Martin is saying now that Canada should bomb Sudan if the UN doesn't do something.

Yikes, Canada ranked 29th in water consumption! How dreadful? Does the fact that we have more fresh water than anywhere else on Earth figure into it? That's like accusing Saudi Arabia of having too much sand, or Hawaii of consuming far more pineapple than the rest of the industrialized world.

I could mention how the Genocide in Iraq was mostly caused by US intervention in the gulf war. They incited the kurds and shiites to rebellion and then just stood there and watched them rot to death, when they didn't depose Saddam the first time.

Canada will not stand for genocide, and to hell with what you (Sierra BTHP) or the UN thinks.

I could mention how the Genocide in Iraq was mostly caused by US intervention in the gulf war. They incited the kurds and shiites to rebellion and then just stood there and watched them rot to death, when they didn't depose Saddam the first time.

Canada will not stand for genocide, and to hell with what you or the UN thinks.

That's the spirit! To hell with the UN!

What I've said all along!

Oh, BTW, Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of his own people - long before we ever went to the First Gulf War. So don't blame us - he just liked killing people for fun.

That's the spirit! To hell with the UN!

What I've said all along!

Oh, BTW, Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of his own people - long before we ever went to the First Gulf War. So don't blame us - he just liked killing people for fun.Iraqians and Al-Qaeda types say the same about americans you know. The UN is disfunctional, and has been for some time. It is a good idea that has served some great purposes but as far as the security council is concerned it is pathetic. Mainly due to the US.

I've always felt that in certain aspects the UN is the US.

/snip

BUT NOOOO! We're the evil United States full of nasty Republicans (like myself) and it's just not possible that anyone in the US owns a hybrid, does any recycling, or has any laws or tax codes that favor the environment.

Wake the F up, world. The US is not a complete slacker nation bent on world contamination.

Before you get on your American high horse, perhaps you might like to read that article again, and note that the US is doing even more poorly than Canada on this issue.

Many of the things I suggested are also implemented by many cities and provinces in Canada as well. The problem is that these things are not done everywhere, not that no one is doing them.

I simply listed some things that Canada could be doing better. Instead of debating sensibly, you chose to attack my suggestions.

Whispering Legs, I remember when you were much more sensible.

Edit: At no time did I attack the US. You need not react as though I were anti-American. I can be dissatisfied or angry with Canadian politicians and policies without being anti-Canadian. And for the record, I can be dissatisfied or angry with American policies and politicians without being anti-American.

Iraqians and Al-Qaeda types say the same about americans you know. The UN is disfunctional, and has been for some time. It is a good idea that has served some great purposes but as far as they security council is concerned it is pathetica. Mainly due to the US.

I've always felt that in certain aspects the UN is the US.

I don't see how - the UN didn't approve the Iraq War. Seems that France and Russia run the UN as well.

Or is it that corrupt little man Kofi, his son, and their friends?

I don't see how - the UN didn't approve the Iraq War. Seems that France and Russia run the UN as well.

Or is it that corrupt little man Kofi, his son, and their friends?
US has veto power doesn't it?

Before you get on your American high horse, perhaps you might like to read that article again, and note that the US is doing even more poorly than Canada on this issue.Same thing crossed my mind.

US has veto power doesn't it?
The US didn't veto its own resolution to wage war on Iraq. That veto came from some other countries.

The primary use of most US vetos is to veto action against Israel.

However I do agree with the above post on the majority of its context

REPEAT AFTER ME:

Kyoto treaty is a joke. Now if a better designed non-economy killing treaty were brought up I say lets take a look at it.

Fair enough. But as we (Canada) has signed on to this treaty, then we need to find ways to honour it.

I suspect when it comes down to the nitty-gritty on ensuring clean air, clean water, etc for future generations, and the details on reaching it, we'd find some fairly broad agreement.

But, if we're going to call Bush a war criminal, then Chretien and Martin get to go first.We didn't. Not in this thread anyway. What the Hell are you on about?

We didn't. Not in this thread anyway. What the Hell are you on about?

Lacadaemon pointed out Chretien, and you asked why we were calling them "warcriminal". You asked in this thread.

I could mention how the Genocide in Iraq was mostly caused by US intervention in the gulf war. They incited the kurds and shiites to rebellion and then just stood there and watched them rot to death, when they didn't depose Saddam the first time.

Canada will not stand for genocide, and to hell with what you (Sierra BTHP) or the UN thinks.

I don't know about that. Iraq has been pretty much disfunctional since the fifties. Hell the UK had to stop an invasion of kuwait in the 1960s under the aegis of warcriminal MacMillian. Canada was pretty fucking quiet during that period.

And as I look at the world today, apparently, yes. Canada will stand for genocide.

I wish that Canadians were less jingoistic. The amount of blind nationalism is sad.

When I said stand for genocide I meant being directly responsible for it.
Obviously a nation of 32 million people's peacekeeping forces cannot be everywhere at all times.

I wish that Canadians were less jingoistic. The amount of blind nationalism is sad.

If you want jingoistic, look at the Quebec separatists..

Lacadaemon pointed out Chretien, and you asked why we were calling them "warcriminal". You asked in this thread.
You were the one saying, "...if we're going to call Bush a war criminal, then Chretien and Martin get to go first."

No-one called Bush a war criminal, a warhawk, a war-monger, or even a fish-monger in this thread. What does no-one calling George Bush anything at all have to do with anything, man?

You're just out to get Canadians uptight. but it's not gonna work. Not with what I'm smoking.

Say it aint so Dorothy. I thought Canada was full of love and goodness. Ugly truth hidden by the populace exposed. Well now before a Canadian bash session begins I believe the US shares the bottom of the heap with our Canadian cousins. Read on....

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/10/18/canada.pollution.ap/index.html

It should be noted that Alberta accounts for roughly 40%(if my memory's accurate) of the total emissions of gases into the atmosphere, for under 10% of the population.

Heh, the oil industry is pretty filthy. Who'd have thought?:rolleyes:

We really need to get those hydrogen-fueled cars on the market.

LOL I believe what's going on in this thread, Freud called it 'projection'.

If you want jingoistic, look at the Quebec separatists..

That point of view is awfully judgemental and simplistic.

But let's not get started on this, there's already a thread speaking of it.

When I said stand for genocide I meant being directly responsible for it.
Obviously a nation of 32 million people's peacekeeping forces cannot be everywhere at all times.

No, you'll just ignore it, like everyone else does. Nor has Canada ever intervened to stop genocide.

No, you'll just ignore it, like everyone else does. Nor has Canada ever intervened to stop genocide.

To give General Romeo Dallaire some credit, he certainly tried to get the UN to stop the slaughter in Rwanda.

On the other hand, the treatment of aboriginals in the early days of Canada has been called a genocide by many.

I'm so glad I lived in BC. :)

Ahhhh.... look at the green forest behind the backyard. :D

Too bad we got Gordo. :(

I'm so glad I lived in BC. :)

Ahhhh.... look at the green forest behind the backyard. :D

Too bad we got Gordo. :(


Who's Gordo? Or is that a refference to being fat?

European countries such as Sweden, Switzerland, Denmark and Germany ranked at the top of the environmental list, while Canada, Belgium and the United States were at the bottom.

There's your real problem.

Who's Gordo? Or is that a refference to being fat?Our Premier:
http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/412/gordo9xg.jpg

This pic above IS real, ask any BC'ers.:D

Wow. So Canada is almost as bad as the US. What's your point?

uh... are u talking to me? Marrakech II asked me who is Gordo.

Our Premier:
http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/412/gordo9xg.jpg

This pic above IS real, ask any BC'ers.:D

LOl, Who hasnt been arrested in Maui. I mean really.... Everyone gets arrested in Maui, right?

Rather than read through all the political posturing and finger wagging, I'd like to say this:

Canada can get away with thinking that we are more environmentally friendly than our southern cousins, only because our country is so thinly populated. We are obscenely wasteful, and there is really no political will to change that. Yes, some people take big steps to reduce their impact on the environment, but it is no longer a big deal if you don't. People don't believe in recycling, or in reducing any more. They days when we saw commercials about turning off the tap while brushing your teeth are gone. As well, much of our more serious environmental pollution is hidden in the wild north...radioative tailings in the Great Bear Lake, oil spills in Arctic Ocean, massive chemical spills in the delicate tundra...and even when one of the worst fresh-water natural disasters happened at Lake Wabamum, national interest was tepid, and brief. We simply don't give a shit, because we have so much land, and we don't have to sleep where we shit.

Except my people DO have to sleep where you've shit...and that damn oil spill ended up heaviest on the shores of the Paul Band Reservation. And the Inuit, eating traditional foods such as seal and whale, are eating some of the most heavily polluted animals in the world, not because they are dumping chemicals in the ocean, but because the currents concentrate Canada's and the world's refuse there. Those chemical spills poisoned ptarmigan and caribou in Gwitchin tribal lands. Gwitchin people on the Great Bear are dying of cancer from radioactive tailings.

Thanks Canada.

I hope this becomes an eye-opener for Canada. We seem to believe that because we have a lot of pristine wilderness, we are an environmentally friendly nation. Except for Alberta, of course. They're just weird out there. Sinuhue brings up a good point about global currents concentrating pollutants in arctic waters.

Personally, I don't see the Liberals doing anything concrete concerning our environmental track record. Environmental policy does not equal economic growth for the average middle class Canadian, and does not translate into votes; therefore, it is not something the Liberals will do anything about.

On an individual level, I think a lot of people are doing what they can, but what we need is firm leadership and commitment from both the government and industry, which I don't see happening in the foreseeable future.:(

The problem with hoping this will be a wake-up call is that this sort of information is freely available, and comes up in the media every year or so, and is STILL ignored. Ask the average Canadian, and they will tell you we don't have a pollution problem. Confront them with a per-capita figure of waste, and they will be flabbergasted. Most Canadians don't live in huge urban settings, where pollution is usually more visible. Out of sight, out of mind. We used to have community wide programs that raised awareness and encouraged people to be more environmentally friendly. For some reason, that is no longer on the agenda...do we really think we solved the problem?

I suspect that we have so many other things to worry about, global terrorism, trade disputes, natural disasters, war, avian flu and other assorted threats, that the environment has once again been relegated to the back burner. And I don't believe for a second this is coincidence...not when the push for nuclear power is stronger than ever, despite the fact that nuclear power is NOT environmentally friendly, not safe, and not an efficient use of development monies. Apathy towards the environment at the same time nuclear power is being touted as the panacea for our energy woes...it makes perfect political sense.

And for all those US citizens with an axe to grind, please refrain from critical comments about the populace hiding an ugly truth, or comments concerning typical Canadian liberals believing that other Canadians have the same opinion he does about the environment (they do, if you bother reading the study), nor should you compare the US to Canada in terms of environmental protection. The study already did that. Canada was 29th, and the USA was 30th.

The study:

http://www.davidsuzuki.org/files/WOL/Can_Env_Record-final.pdf

And for all those US citizens with an axe to grind, please refrain from critical comments about the populace hiding an ugly truth, or comments concerning typical Canadian liberals believing that other Canadians have the same opinion he does about the environment (they do, if you bother reading the study), nor should you compare the US to Canada in terms of environmental protection.

Sinuhue is not a US Citizen. She's Canadian.

Sinuhue is not a US Citizen. She's Canadian.
I think Gift-of-God knows that...I read that as being directed towards others.

No, you'll just ignore it, like everyone else does. Nor has Canada ever intervened to stop genocide.


Errr, no offence, but what exactly do you think was the purpose of the very intervention into the ethnic strife in Bosnia/Serbia that Nato undertook ?

I mean, as long as you are calling him a war criminal over it, don't you think you should at least acknowledge why this initiative was undertook?


And perhaps also take note of certain Serbians currently under indictment at the ICC for crimes against humanity (aka genocide) for that very same war?



The argument about the legality of that action aside, you can't pretend like NATO went in there just for something to do because nothing was going on....

I mean, as long as you are calling him a war criminal over it, don't you think you should at least acknowledge why this initiative was undertook?

Ah, so you're saying the ends justify the means. Are you going to be Karl Rove's replacement?

Ah, so you're saying the ends justify the means. Are you going to be Karl Rove's replacement?


Please refrain from putting words in my mouth as you know damn well that I did not say or imply that.


I was taking exception to a specific statement made and providing a counter to it.


Now then, are you almost done trying to hijack this thread with this same subject that you repeat ad nauseum? I'd have thought that you'd instead be rejoicing that you now have TWO digs in your pocket against Canada as it increased your arsenal by a factor of 100%

Focus On The Environment People!!!!!

For The Love Of My Red, Hot, Injun Ass, Focus On The Topic!


Edit: hey, have you noticed there is a new filter that does not allow you to 'yell' all in caps?:(

So anywho....how can Canada interest people in being more environmentally friendly again? Is it going to take fines or fees? For example, in my town, you can only have so much garbage, or you pay a certain fee for every extra bag. Should we do the same for water consumption and so on?

I'd rather see more effort put into encouraging people to get geothermal energy systems installed in their houses. Ours is friggin' awesome, and we just sit back and laugh as gas prices sky-rocket...well, except when we have to drive anywhere:(

Focus On The Environment People!!!!!

For The Love Of My Red, Hot, Injun Ass, Focus On The Topic!


Edit: hey, have you noticed there is a new filter that does not allow you to 'yell' all in caps?:(


Actually, the cover story of McLeans last issue related to the issue of water pollution - and was a pretty good one on discussing the rather disparate levels of water treatment used by various cities - with Victoria ranking up there as the worst offender.

So it's not like this is news to anyone who ispaying attention.

Frankly, there IS still much to be done and the fact that we do still have so much wild lands does, I think, delude the average Canadian into thinking that we are doing better than we actually are.


Where environmentalists shoot themselves in the foot is that no matter what you try some group or other gets their panties in a bunch over it.

Want to cut down on oil use? OK, what are the options?

Put up a wind farm and you have some group suing your ass for every bird that hits the blades.

Put up solar panels? please - this is Canada. The technology to make it effective this far away from the tropics and in the pressence of blizzards hasn't been invented yet. It can help a bit, but it is not panacea.

Hydro-electric? What? And flood the migratory path of the Three-horned midget elk? Or disrupt the spawning cycle of one school of salmon?


Nope - can't do that either.

I mean - we do, but it's a fight every time.

And I'm not saying that the environmental impacts shouldn't be assessed. The problem is that the same people who are screaming loudest for people to do things are the same ones screaming loudest when you try.

We have done a lot in the way of environemntal standards and the advent of recycling programs in Canada, but yes - there is more to be done. Becuase we DO match the US almost exactly on a per-capita basis.

And BOTH countries should be doing better.

So anywho....how can Canada interest people in being more environmentally friendly again? Is it going to take fines or fees? For example, in my town, you can only have so much garbage, or you pay a certain fee for every extra bag. Should we do the same for water consumption and so on?


The poor and middle class would shoulder that burden, and the rich would never notice it.

I know a guy in Dallas who waters his lawn during drought restrictions. His sprinklers come on, and he gets a 500 dollar fine. Every day.

He considers it part of the cost of maintaining his lawn.

I would think that education would have a better long term impact. That, and making it easier for people to do things.

When they made it easier to recycle here, it worked. When it first started, though, they made it a pain in the ass - you couldn't recycle anything plastic except Type 1 or 2 - and if they went to pick up your recyclables, and one bottle was a 3 or 4, they would dump the lot into your yard. That made me stop recycling for 2 years - until they changed their rules for pickup.

Now, they take everything. Easy. Now I do it without thinking about it.

Making it easier, as opposed to punishing people, works better, along with education.

Look at the source of the study "David Suzuki" in my opinion the guy went from serious scientest to return to the trees eco freek years ago
and as for Canada's wasting of resources how much of the wast is export in form of oilf, gas, lng, water, and hydro to our friend to the south and soon to china?

Where environmentalists shoot themselves in the foot is that no matter what you try some group or other gets their panties in a bunch over it.

Want to cut down on oil use? OK, what are the options?

Put up a wind farm and you have some group suing your ass for every bird that hits the blades.
That sort of thing can be easily avoided with proper environmental impact assessments. And taking these sorts of problems into account when designing the farms.

Put up solar panels? please - this is Canada. The technology to make it effective this far away from the tropics and in the pressence of blizzards hasn't been invented yet. It can help a bit, but it is not panacea. It isn't touted as one. Solar energy, even in the tropics, is encouraged as a PART of a system, usually in conjuntion with wind power. Solar power CAN run the appliances in your home, even in a big home if you manage your power usage effectively. Don't run everything at once. Don't tie your major power-draws into the solar grid (anything that produces heat, or cold draws major power...run those on other things). And despite the fact that we are a cold nation, solar power can work even in the darkest of winters...but your output is going to be less. So account for it. Conserve your energy, or make allowances for the need for other sources during the cold months.

Hydro-electric? What? And flood the migratory path of the Three-horned midget elk? Or disrupt the spawning cycle of one school of salmon?Hydro-electric dams can be much more disruptive than this. But small hydro-electric systems, running off creeks, natural falls and so on, can produce enough power for individual homes (usually in rural areas).

If every home put just one solar panel on their roof...just one...that small amount of energy saved would far outreach the possible output of the number of nuclear plants certain nations are considering building to deal with the energy issue. Small on the individual level, but huge on the collective level.

And I'm not saying that the environmental impacts shouldn't be assessed. The problem is that the same people who are screaming loudest for people to do things are the same ones screaming loudest when you try. And often with good reason. The pipeline slated to run past Inuvik and down to the US runs through both Gwitchin and Inuvialuit tribal lands, and the process has been stalled many times because of environmental concerns. Legitimate environmental concerns. The oil companies in the negotations resent the setbacks, because they are not used to stringent environmental controls...they are accustomed to a system of pollute now, pay a fine, continue to pollute. We can't allow them to operate in this manner any more. Solutions are possible, and profit can be made...perhaps the margin will be smaller, but the overall environmental impact will be lessened, and we need to be making that a priority.

Well, one of the ways we can deal with these issues is to consider the scale of the technologicalsolutions being implemented. A huge hydroelectric dam will obviously disrupt the ecosystem, but many small ones would not have as much of an effect. Sinuhue's example (I realise she is Canadian, thank you) of a geothermal heating source for her home is great in that it provides a solution at a scale that does not adversely effect the environment. If every household and industrial building recycled their water, consumption would drastically drop, and waste would not leach into the ecosystem. If we all produced our own electricity,we would not have need of nuclear power plants, hydro-electric dams, or coal burning plants. If we produced our own biodiesel, we would not need gas stations, thereby reducing the scope and power of the petroleum industry.

Another nice thing about having many small power plants, &c. is that if one breaks down, the number of people effected is much less.

While this self-sufficient model is taking place in many rural areas,we need to see how we can implement these changes in the urban setting, as that is where we need to make the impact the most.

Yikes, Canada ranked 29th in water consumption! How dreadful? Does the fact that we have more fresh water than anywhere else on Earth figure into it? That's like accusing Saudi Arabia of having too much sand, or Hawaii of consuming far more pineapple than the rest of the industrialized world.
well, its still pissing me off that Texas beat us in Spam Consumption. :mad:

The poor and middle class would shoulder that burden, and the rich would never notice it.

I know a guy in Dallas who waters his lawn during drought restrictions. His sprinklers come on, and he gets a 500 dollar fine. Every day.

He considers it part of the cost of maintaining his lawn.

I would think that education would have a better long term impact. That, and making it easier for people to do things.

When they made it easier to recycle here, it worked. When it first started, though, they made it a pain in the ass - you couldn't recycle anything plastic except Type 1 or 2 - and if they went to pick up your recyclables, and one bottle was a 3 or 4, they would dump the lot into your yard. That made me stop recycling for 2 years - until they changed their rules for pickup.

Now, they take everything. Easy. Now I do it without thinking about it.

Making it easier, as opposed to punishing people, works better, along with education. bump

bump
Good point, (about making it easier to recycle, and be environmentally friendly), and I think that's what I'm talking about too. When we first thought of installing a geothermal heating/cooling system, we were very daunted. It was hard to get information, people didn't know what we were talking about, and even the bank didn't want to give us a loan to do it. Now we wonder why we waited so long...it was so easy to install, and we'll have it paid off in 3 more years when you factor in normal energy expenses.

I believe most alternative energies are too obscure, too shrouded in mystery for the average person to really consider using them. More education, more open houses with alternative energy systems, more encouragement is needed. And we need to make a big deal about it again, make it fun, make it silly, have contests between towns to cut down waste, bring it to the forefront again.

So anywho....how can Canada interest people in being more environmentally friendly again? Is it going to take fines or fees? For example, in my town, you can only have so much garbage, or you pay a certain fee for every extra bag. Should we do the same for water consumption and so on?

I'd rather see more effort put into encouraging people to get geothermal energy systems installed in their houses. Ours is friggin' awesome, and we just sit back and laugh as gas prices sky-rocket...well, except when we have to drive anywhere:(

Sinuhue, have you noticed the sheer amount of people who whine about the "extra effort" of recycling? Or think that is their God-given right to have 3 bags of garbage on the curb every week? The number of times I've heard/read commentators on the radio/newspaper claiming this drives me mad. These people seriously don't believe there is a problem. I'm all for free speech, but they are really driving public opinion in some places.

And as much as I grew up in the north, and deserve the term "hereditary redneck" in some ways, I wish my family and their neighbours (and similar rural and northern communities across Canada) would learn that this isn't just a city problem and that everyone needs to be some kind of environmentalist. And that being an environmentalist doesn't mean that you have to be a "Tree-Spiking, Dope Smoking Hippie".

Sinuhue, have you noticed the sheer amount of people who whine about the "extra effort" of recycling? Or think that is their God-given right to have 3 bags of garbage on the curb every week? The number of times I've heard/read commentators on the radio/newspaper claiming this drives me mad. These people seriously don't believe there is a problem. I'm all for free speech, but they are really driving public opinion in some places.

And as much as I grew up in the north, and deserve the term "hereditary redneck" in some ways, I wish my family and their neighbours (and similar rural and northern communities across Canada) would learn that this isn't just a city problem and that everyone needs to be some kind of environmentalist. And that being an environmentalist doesn't mean that you have to be a "Tree-Spiking, Dope Smoking Hippie".
Yup.

Seriously...it is so easy to cut down on waste, it's laughable. Composting alone will slash your waste down by a third, if not more. Recycling plastics reduces it even more...and if you buy in bulk, you cut down on the packaging that needs to be tossed. People are just damn lazy...AND they don't really understand the combined effect of EVERYONE's waste...they just consider their own waste and see it as a blip.

Wow. This jolt thing is Begininning to Unusually Make me Pissy.

Say it aint so Dorothy. I thought Canada was full of love and goodness. Ugly truth hidden by the populace exposed. Well now before a Canadian bash session begins I believe the US shares the bottom of the heap with our Canadian cousins. Read on....

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/10/18/canada.pollution.ap/index.html
I'd believe it. The most common indicator these days is CO2 emissions, which is elevated to the worst thing for the environment. But there are others, not all air pollution. However, it's not Canada's fault that it is so polluting. It's all economics. It has cheap land, almost unlimited resources, and a very sparse population, meaning that no one complains about it.

I'd believe it. The most common indicator these days is CO2 emissions, which is elevated to the worst thing for the environment. But there are others, not all air pollution. However, it's not Canada's fault that it is so polluting. It's all economics. It has cheap land, almost unlimited resources, and a very sparse population, meaning that no one complains about it.

Oh, there's lots of us complaining. I just wish I could afford a hybrid car. I did get rid of my clunker and bought a good mileage Corolla (and I usually cycle commute on top of that), and I use bath water to water my plants, and spent a lot of money on energy and water efficient applies, and compost, and recycle, and power-smarted the house BUT as much as I'd love to go solar and geo-thermal on my home, I'm in a strata. So until I can convince the strata council that's what they want to do... no luck there. On the other hand, I'm in Victoria, so we don't turn the heat on in the winter unless we have guests. We just put on sweaters or cosy up under blankets.