NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm considering switching careers. Well, I've been considering it for a long time, but I need to start getting serious. I am thinking of getting out of teaching and going into law.

First, my reasons are not financial. Not really. I suspect the areas I want to focus on would not be very profitable. Immigration, treaties (aboriginal rights etc), labour issues (exmployer/employee conflict, violation of labour codes etc), and general legal advocacy. No family law...definitely no criminal law...contracts and such for things outside the areas I've mentioned, but I want to 'fight the good fight' and stop myself, and others from being fucked over. Yeah. I'm a friggin' idealist:)

Now I know your answers will be based on where you practice, and studied, but that's okay. I'm looking for general info only.

The questions I have are:

1. I've taken a look at some sample LSAT tests...they don't actually seem too hard...am I fooling myself?

2. How tough is law school, really? Does it consume all your waking hours? How hard is it to maintain a family and study in this field?

3. It seems you specialise in your third and fourth year...looking at my interests, any suggestions for course (types) I shouldn't miss?

4. In Alberta you need to do a year with a firm before you can actually move on...I assume that's pretty common...what kinds of things do you end up doing?

5. How are lawyers paid? Is it a salary, or a 'commission' structure? Does that depend on who you work for (as a partner, or an underling in a firm...or with your own little practice?) And is the pay actually any good, or is that bullshit? (Usually it's bullshit, so...)

6. What are the working hours like? I don't want to kill myself with work, and live just for my career. Not anymore, not now that I have better things to do like raise my kids. I still want to work...but not like a maniac, for shit pay. Try to think of a teacher's salary (I'm at about $50,000 Canadian right now), with plenty of vacation time (unpaid mind you, but still). Should I bother to switch?

7. Any other tidbits of advice?

5. How are lawyers paid?
With the souls of their victi- I mean clients.

I was leaving until I saw that, honestly I was.

With the souls of their victi- I mean clients.

I was leaving until I saw that, honestly I was.
Kehehehehee...yeah, I've got to get used to the lawyer jokes. My husband has already started with them, and I haven't even APPLIED to law school yet!

You're going to be a lawyer Sinuhue? If I ever get arrested in Canada should I give you a call?

Sinuhue? A lawyer? I like the idea.

You're going to be a lawyer Sinuhue? If I ever get arrested in Canada should I give you a call?
Well, I'm not planning on going into criminal law....except to get my activist buddies out of jail and free from criminal records:) So make your crimes political, okay?

Sinuhue? A lawyer? I like the idea.
Really? I'm not sure. People keep saying that...but I'm not sure I am logical enough to be a lawyer. I'm all fire and brimstone...but I am uncertain my memory (or lack thereof) will serve me in my pursuit for justice...either I'm going to be a really great lawyer, or a really terrible one.

I was in a three-piece pinstripe suit a couple of years back, and I overheard someone say, "Hey, look at that hot lawyer-bitch!" I have to admit, I like the image!

5. How are lawyers paid? Is it a salary, or a 'commission' structure? Does that depend on who you work for (as a partner, or an underling in a firm...or with your own little practice?) And is the pay actually any good, or is that bullshit? (Usually it's bullshit, so...)
It depends on where you work I think. I know the lawyers I've worked with get paid by the hour but I'm not sure if its different for other firms.

6. What are the working hours like? I don't want to kill myself with work, and live just for my career. Not anymore, not now that I have better things to do like raise my kids. I still want to work...but not like a maniac, for shit pay. Try to think of a teacher's salary (I'm at about $50,000 Canadian right now), with plenty of vacation time (unpaid mind you, but still). Should I bother to switch?
Get ready for plenty of stress. All of the guys I know who work at the firm I've had a job at have told me not to be one. That and there is alot of paper work and on occasion working over the hours you normally work.

Well, I'm not planning on going into criminal law....except to get my activist buddies out of jail and free from criminal records:) So make your crimes political, okay?

Only political crimes?well im sure i can put a political twist on anything i do in canada.whats a good political angle on jewel theft?

The following answers apply only in the US...

1. I've taken a look at some sample LSAT tests...they don't actually seem too hard...am I fooling myself?

- the content of the LSAT has nothing to do with what you'll study in law school. And what you study in law school won't help you pass the bar exam.

2. How tough is law school, really? Does it consume all your waking hours? How hard is it to maintain a family and study in this field?

- not very hard, if you're into it. No. Not very hard.

3. It seems you specialise in your third and fourth year...looking at my interests, any suggestions for course (types) I shouldn't miss?

- can't speak for Canada. We only had three years of law school here. And like I said, it seemed later to be nearly worthless as preparation for the bar exam.

4. In Alberta you need to do a year with a firm before you can actually move on...I assume that's pretty common...what kinds of things do you end up doing?

- it certainly helps

5. How are lawyers paid? Is it a salary, or a 'commission' structure? Does that depend on who you work for (as a partner, or an underling in a firm...or with your own little practice?) And is the pay actually any good, or is that bullshit? (Usually it's bullshit, so...)
If you're a senior partner at a large law firm, you're going to be crapping Tiffany gold cufflinks. If you're like me, you won't be a senior partner at a large law firm.

You could always go into toxic tort - it's like playing the lottery.

6. What are the working hours like? I don't want to kill myself with work, and live just for my career. Not anymore, not now that I have better things to do like raise my kids. I still want to work...but not like a maniac, for shit pay. Try to think of a teacher's salary (I'm at about $50,000 Canadian right now), with plenty of vacation time (unpaid mind you, but still). Should I bother to switch?

Can't speak for you, but my hours are pretty light. Then again, all I do is contracts.

7. Any other tidbits of advice?

Don't bring your style of arguing home with you.

Get ready for plenty of stress. All of the guys I know who work at the firm I've had a job at have told me not to be one. That and there is alot of paper work and on occasion working over the hours you normally work.
The thing is, I need to be honest with myself. I avoid conflict, but I also crave it. I love the fight...and even if that fight involves tedious paperwork...I want to be the hand that indirectly slaps the wicked...I want to help immigrants NOT get fucked over like my husband's family has been fucked over...I want unethical bosses taken to task for their abuses, and if I can be a part of that HUMBLING, I don't care if some of the work is boring. I'm a terrible person, I know...but I can embrace that:).

And as for working overtime...it's part of a teacher's job description anyway.

I'm considering switching careers. Well, I've been considering it for a long time, but I need to start getting serious. I am thinking of getting out of teaching and going into law.

First, my reasons are not financial. Not really. I suspect the areas I want to focus on would not be very profitable. Immigration, treaties (aboriginal rights etc), labour issues (exmployer/employee conflict, violation of labour codes etc), and general legal advocacy. No family law...definitely no criminal law...contracts and such for things outside the areas I've mentioned, but I want to 'fight the good fight' and stop myself, and others from being fucked over. Yeah. I'm a friggin' idealist:)

Now I know your answers will be based on where you practice, and studied, but that's okay. I'm looking for general info only.

The questions I have are:

1. I've taken a look at some sample LSAT tests...they don't actually seem too hard...am I fooling myself?

2. How tough is law school, really? Does it consume all your waking hours? How hard is it to maintain a family and study in this field?

3. It seems you specialise in your third and fourth year...looking at my interests, any suggestions for course (types) I shouldn't miss?

4. In Alberta you need to do a year with a firm before you can actually move on...I assume that's pretty common...what kinds of things do you end up doing?

5. How are lawyers paid? Is it a salary, or a 'commission' structure? Does that depend on who you work for (as a partner, or an underling in a firm...or with your own little practice?) And is the pay actually any good, or is that bullshit? (Usually it's bullshit, so...)

6. What are the working hours like? I don't want to kill myself with work, and live just for my career. Not anymore, not now that I have better things to do like raise my kids. I still want to work...but not like a maniac, for shit pay. Try to think of a teacher's salary (I'm at about $50,000 Canadian right now), with plenty of vacation time (unpaid mind you, but still). Should I bother to switch?

7. Any other tidbits of advice?

I'm not sure how much anything I say would apply to Canadian practice.

Also, you should keep in mind my current status: I am not currently practicing. Within the last few months I left a job with a big firm with a 6-figure income, because of burn-out, anxiety, and depression.

That said, I encourage anyone who is interested in law to study it. I think it is a great subject and there are many great careers out there.

You are right that the kinds of law you might like may not make the most money (unless you take the "evil" side), but I think it is far, far more important that you enjoy what you are doing than anything else.

As for your questions:

1. Personally, I found the LSAT pretty easy. I believe the practice exams are pretty typical. I'd still practice and study my ass off to get the best possible score, but I wouldn't be scared of the LSAT.

2. I am one of those strange ducks that liked law school. Perhaps that is why I did well. Also, after several years working to put myself through school, I treated law school as a 9 to 5 job -- staying at the school and studying when I was not in class. I think if you apply yourself like that, you can do well. If you like what you are studying, even better. (If you don't like law school, I don't think that means you won't like practicing law. But you will do better if you enjoy reading cases and considering the questions.)
From what I know of your on-line personality, you seem well-suited for law school.

As for balancing family and law school, I didn't do such a great job of this, so I can't give good advice. I know some that did, however.

3. US law school is 3 years. After your first year, you are in a better position to judge where you might want to head forward and what professors might give you good advice. Personally, I'd say study whatever interests you the most.

4. Can't help you with Canadian practice. I could tell you a lot about working at a US firm, but it depends on your year. The more experience, the more stuff you do. It also depends on the kind of practice.

5. Depends on whether you work for a firm or other employer or whether you hang out your own shingle. Not sure what is common in Canada. How much you make depends on a lot of factors. If you sell your soul to a big firm like I did, you can make big bucks.

6. I handled this wrong, but I know others that make a good living, are fighting the good fight, and are happy.

7. Lots, but not to post here.

The thing is, I need to be honest with myself. I avoid conflict, but I also crave it. I love the fight...and even if that fight involves tedious paperwork...I want to be the hand that indirectly slaps the wicked...I want to help immigrants NOT get fucked over like my husband's family has been fucked over...I want unethical bosses taken to task for their abuses, and if I can be a part of that HUMBLING, I don't care if some of the work is boring. I'm a terrible person, I know...but I can embrace that:).

And as for working overtime...it's part of a teacher's job description anyway.

Then you won't be making a lot of money.

But...

Be prepared to lose. And to face the people you thought you might help when you lose.

Winning is not always about who was the better prepared lawyer, or who argued more effectively, or who had more solid evidence.

You would be surprised how many judges are not really fair arbiters of justice, and how many juries are composed of the ignorant - easily swayed by appeals to their base nature.

The following answers apply only in the US...

- the content of the LSAT has nothing to do with what you'll study in law school. And what you study in law school won't help you pass the bar exam.
Yeah, I saw that right away. Checks your reading comprehension, your analytical skills...frankly, what I've done has been a breeze...so why the big build up and fear-mongering? Then again...I have a flair for language and bullshit...my husband took one look at the questions and ran away screaming in horror...

So what the hell DO you learn in law school? I mean, Education was a joke...same thing...it taught you NOTHING useful for actual teaching...I'm really hoping this will be different. How is the bar exam different than the actual courses content?


- can't speak for Canada. We only had three years of law school here. And like I said, it seemed later to be nearly worthless as preparation for the bar exam.
So what DOES help you prepare for the Bar? Or is it the kind of thing (like the LSAT) that you just succeed at or not, depending on your abilities?


If you're a senior partner at a large law firm, you're going to be crapping Tiffany gold cufflinks. If you're like me, you won't be a senior partner at a large law firm.
I kind of figured as such...and I'd be a rural lawyer anyway...the 'firm' would be me in the back of the grocery store I bet:) At least until I got some money for a decent office!


Can't speak for you, but my hours are pretty light. Then again, all I do is contracts.That's basically what I'm looking for...the best possible ratio of high pay and few hours. Right now, teaching LOOKS good on paper...but it's really an incredible amount of work. Okay, not RIGHT NOW, because my job is a joke...but it isn't going to last, and I'll be back in the classroom busting my ass again forthwith:). I suspect, working in the country, I'll be doing mostly contracts, and then going into the heavy treaty negotiations and assorted 'fights' here and there (expecting to make next to nothing on those things, but the fun stuff is usually unpaid anyway).



Don't bring your style of arguing home with you.
Yeah...I could see that being a problem.

Then you won't be making a lot of money.

But...

Be prepared to lose. And to face the people you thought you might help when you lose.

Winning is not always about who was the better prepared lawyer, or who argued more effectively, or who had more solid evidence.

You would be surprised how many judges are not really fair arbiters of justice, and how many juries are composed of the ignorant - easily swayed by appeals to their base nature.
I hate to say it...but I've watched some Canadian legal 'dramas' here and again, and that aspect is really explored. That a judge in a pissy mood can screw up your whole case. I can see that as being incredibly frustrating...but the more I work, the more I realise that it is impossible to avoid this sort of thing. People higher up than you will ALWAYS be screwing things up, and making things less effective, and that's just how our entire system works, from bottom to top. And having spent time with the lawyers working on my friend's immigration case, I understand that so much can be out of your hands. But still...you have a better chance knowing the system, than just the average Jane on the street, and that's where I want to be. In the know.

Yeah, I saw that right away. Checks your reading comprehension, your analytical skills...frankly, what I've done has been a breeze...so why the big build up and fear-mongering? Then again...I have a flair for language and bullshit...my husband took one look at the questions and ran away screaming in horror...

I think a lot of it has it to with the fact that most people, even those straight out of college, do not deal with logic directly. We try to think logically and craft logical arguments, but usually don't get into the grit of the formal rules.

So what DOES help you prepare for the Bar? Or is it the kind of thing (like the LSAT) that you just succeed at or not, depending on your abilities?

Well in the U.S. there is a preperation course, Barbri (i think that's the spelling anyway). I am attending my current law school because two of the professors here developed the course, I figured I should get to know them before the real studying begins :p .

Nikitas...so you are studying law? A question...do you have to have a degree before you can go into law school in the US? I found out you can't just go straight into law school unless you've already graduated with a degree here...it made me feel better for not doing this sooner because, well, I couldn't have!

Nikitas...so you are studying law? A question...do you have to have a degree before you can go into law school in the US? I found out you can't just go straight into law school unless you've already graduated with a degree here...it made me feel better for not doing this sooner because, well, I couldn't have!

Yep, still a lowly 1st year student.

I don't think you absolutely must have a college degree, I don't remember any such requirement on any apps I filled out. But then I have never heard of anyone getting into law school without one; so it's practically, if not officially, required.

Yep, still a lowly 1st year student.

I don't think you absolutely must have a college degree, I don't remember any such requirement on any apps I filled out. But then I have never heard of anyone getting into law school without one; so it's practically, if not officially, required.

I am certain you must have a valid undergraduate degree to get into law school.

Yep, still a lowly 1st year student.

I don't think you absolutely must have a college degree, I don't remember any such requirement on any apps I filled out. But then I have never heard of anyone getting into law school without one; so it's practically, if not officially, required.
It's actually part of the requirements in the admissions forms here:(. Yikes...I just read that I need to write the damn LSAT by December for September admission! PRESSURE!

I am certain you must have a valid undergraduate degree to get into law school.
Damn it...I need to make a decision quicker than I thought...I have to apply by November 1st, and write the LSAT as soon as possible...damn damn damn...and my average in my first degree was not stellar...I don't even know if I could get in....*runs around like a headless chicken*

Damn it...I need to make a decision quicker than I thought...I have to apply by November 1st, and write the LSAT as soon as possible...damn damn damn...and my average in my first degree was not stellar...I don't even know if I could get in....*runs around like a headless chicken*

Don't sweat it. Just apply.

My undergrad GPA was under 3.0, but I got a very high LSAT.

My law school GPA was near a 4.0.

Don't sweat it. Just apply.

My undergrad GPA was under 3.0, but I got a very high LSAT.

My law school GPA was near a 4.0.
I think I'll let my application make the decision for me....either I'm accepted, and I go this next year...or I'm not, and I bust my ass to make sure I can get in the year after that. If I don't get accepted...no big deal. I still have a job. And ditto if I NEVER get accepted (worst case scenario, not quite realistic).

And I read that I have to mention my aboriginal status...I'm not sure how I feel about that.

I am certain you must have a valid undergraduate degree to get into law school.

/shrug

Could also depend on the school I suppose, but out of the applications I just checked they didn't explicitly state that one was required.

My undergrad GPA was under 3.0, but I got a very high LSAT.

My law school GPA was near a 4.0.

So... out of curiousity, how high was it? :D

The weighting of the LSAT is 70%, so the GPA is really not a huge deal...that's a relief!

Edit: But there are on average 1200 applicants per year, and only space for 175! *resume headless chicken dance*

I think I'll let my application make the decision for me....either I'm accepted, and I go this next year...or I'm not, and I bust my ass to make sure I can get in the year after that. If I don't get accepted...no big deal. I still have a job. And ditto if I NEVER get accepted (worst case scenario, not quite realistic).

Perfect thinking.

And I read that I have to mention my aboriginal status...I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Don't sweat it. It can only help you (and that is a good thing I will defend strongly).

Sinuhue

I have a few good friends who practice law here in the states and I have a few good friends who teach. There are good lawyers all over the place but few good teachers. You are not doing to bad a 50 Cad a year. So if it isn't money what exactly is it that makes you want to be a Legal Eagle? To me seems like you fighting the biggest fight we have in todays world.

JMayo

So... out of curiousity, how high was it? :D

It has been 7 years, but I believe 3.84. And my school used a strict curve.

I aced (top grade in class) every exam my first year.

(I've admitted being a current burn-out, so I can brag a little about the glory days. ;) )

The weighting of the LSAT is 70%, so the GPA is really not a huge deal...that's a relief!

I'm confused... Is your LSAT score in the 70th percentile?

It has been 7 years, but I believe 3.84. And my school used a strict curve.

I aced (top grade in class) every exam my first year.

(I've admitted being a current burn-out, so I can brag a little about the glory days. )

I meant the LSAT.

But congrats on your work in law school though. Did you do law review as well?

Sinuhue

I have a few good friends who practice law here in the states and I have a few good friends who teach. There are good lawyers all over the place but few good teachers. You are not doing to bad a 50 Cad a year. So if it isn't money what exactly is it that makes you want to be a Legal Eagle? To me seems like you fighting the biggest fight we have in todays world.

JMayo
I'm not abandoning forever the teaching profession, but I am tired of the constant problems that make it near to impossible to deliver good programs to those that need it. And the amount of extra work that is expected is deadening. It's a glorious, and frustrating career, but it is also quite hard to get a full time position, believe it or not. Most districts only hire part time anymore, and dangle a full-time position in front of you, forcing you to do more and more extra (free) work in order to qualify for that position. The politics, the bullshit...I need a break. I also want to be involved in the treaty processes of my people in a more hands-on way. Legal issues have really affected me, via immigration, labour, etc etc...and I want to support myself AND help people who are getting screwed by the system for lack of understanding. I can go back to teaching. But I won't if I stay and burn out. Think of it as a sabbatical.

I'm confused... Is your LSAT score in the 70th percentile?
No no no...I haven't written it yet...but in terms of admission, they look at your LSAT and weigh that score as 70% of your application grade, and your GPA from the last 60 credits of courses is weighed in for 30%. So the LSAT makes or breaks you, not your GPA.

I'm not abandoning forever the teaching profession, but I am tired of the constant problems that make it near to impossible to deliver good programs to those that need it. And the amount of extra work that is expected is deadening. It's a glorious, and frustrating career, but it is also quite hard to get a full time position, believe it or not. Most districts only hire part time anymore, and dangle a full-time position in front of you, forcing you to do more and more extra (free) work in order to qualify for that position. The politics, the bullshit...I need a break. I also want to be involved in the treaty processes of my people in a more hands-on way. Legal issues have really affected me, via immigration, labour, etc etc...and I want to support myself AND help people who are getting screwed by the system for lack of understanding. I can go back to teaching. But I won't if I stay and burn out. Think of it as a sabbatical.

Very Cool.
And I wish you all the best.

JMayo

No no no...I haven't written it yet...but in terms of admission, they look at your LSAT and weigh that score as 70% of your application grade, and your GPA from the last 60 credits of courses is weighed in for 30%. So the LSAT makes or breaks you, not your GPA.

Oh I see. Well if you have already looked through the questions and feel comfortable with them then you should be able to quite well on the test.

I meant the LSAT.

But congrats on your work in law school though. Did you do law review as well?

Again, this is now 10 years ago. But I think 176.

I started law review, but quit. I worked for an attorney instead.

Wow...reading even further...tuition fees are $4800 per year (CND), but there is also an additional 'program fee' of $4000 per year! Almost 10K per year!!!! ACK!

Wow...reading even further...tuition fees are $4800 per year (CND), but there is also an additional 'program fee' of $4000 per year! Almost 10K per year!!!! ACK!

Say hello to student loan debt. :)

Say hello to student loan debt. :)
Damn...we're already on speaking terms...haven't paid off my LAST student loans...shit.

Again, this is now 10 years ago. But I think 176.

Wow, so then you must have attended one of the top 10 schools at the time.

Wow...reading even further...tuition fees are $4800 per year (CND), but there is also an additional 'program fee' of $4000 per year! Almost 10K per year!!!! ACK!

Tuition for my school is around $28,000 a year. :headbang:

Tuition for my school is around $28,000 a year. :headbang:
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The cost issue might put this out of my reach...unless I get some damn good scholarships, which is doubtful, given my average GPA...:(

Wow, so then you must have attended one of the top 10 schools at the time.


Nope. Went to my local state school. Don't regret it all.

Law school is what you put in and get out of it, not where you go. School rankings are overrated.

Anyway, thanks for the info given so far...I've printed off the various application forms, and will get started on that...and on the LSAT preparation. I'm hoping I can ace the thing, and I feel pretty confident about it, but I'm still not sure it'll be enough to get me in. Still...if I DON'T get in, I'll consider it as having saved myself $30,000. (Double checked...it's a three year program, and the fourth year is a mandatory internship with a firm...they'll pay you for that, I hope...:)).

Good night!

Alright, just thought I'd revive this, in case any other lawyers or lawyers-to-be had some advice to impart. I'm going to apply by the November 1st deadline, and write the LSAT in December...let the chips fall where they may and see if I actually get in.

Wow, so then you must have attended one of the top 10 schools at the time.



Tuition for my school is around $28,000 a year. :headbang:

I know. I was looking at here numbers and thinking, "dang, I should have went to Canada for school."

Nope. Went to my local state school. Don't regret it all.

All school is what you put in and get out of it, not where you go. School rankings are overrated.

I amended the above statement to make it more accurate.

Just to preface this, I'm a second year law student at a teir 1 school on the east coast. I'm in class right now, actually, so I didn't feel like reading all three pages, so I'll just respond to the first post.

The questions I have are:

1. I've taken a look at some sample LSAT tests...they don't actually seem too hard...am I fooling myself?

Yes and no. Just make sure you practice, practice, practice. Take as many practice tests as possible in a timed environment early in the morning.

2. How tough is law school, really? Does it consume all your waking hours? How hard is it to maintain a family and study in this field?

Yes, it consumes every waking moment, except the moments you're consuming enough alcohol to forget about the rest of the moments. I do have friends who are married and maintain family lives, though -- you just need a supportive spouse/significant other.

perhaps more importantly, it does change the way you view the world and can make conversation with layman difficult.

3. It seems you specialise in your third and fourth year...looking at my interests, any suggestions for course (types) I shouldn't miss?

Well, there are only 4 years if you're a part-time student. You want a healthy mix of courses you're interested in and courses that will help you for the bar. For example, this semester I'm taking Business Associations (bar), Crim Pro (required/bar), International Trade (what I'm interested in) and Appellate Advocacy (what I'm interested in).

4. In Alberta you need to do a year with a firm before you can actually move on...I assume that's pretty common...what kinds of things do you end up doing?

You're Canadian? Then what do I know -- law school could be four years up in the great white north. In the US it's not a technical requirement to work for a year but it's widely common to have internships throughout law school.

5. How are lawyers paid? Is it a salary, or a 'commission' structure? Does that depend on who you work for (as a partner, or an underling in a firm...or with your own little practice?) And is the pay actually any good, or is that bullshit? (Usually it's bullshit, so...)

It's all about hte billable hour. You get paid for every 1/6th of an hour you work. That's for firms at least....government and non-profit are salary usually.


6. What are the working hours like? I don't want to kill myself with work, and live just for my career. Not anymore, not now that I have better things to do like raise my kids. I still want to work...but not like a maniac, for shit pay. Try to think of a teacher's salary (I'm at about $50,000 Canadian right now), with plenty of vacation time (unpaid mind you, but still). Should I bother to switch?

At least in the US, it's all about federal government work in my opinion. 9-5 hours, great benefits and still pretty good starting salary (around 60-70k per year I think).


7. Any other tidbits of advice?

Just don't take law school too seriously. It's not real life, it's a bunch of over-acheivers and nerds sequestered in their own little world with their own hierarchy and pecking order. So do try to enjoy yourself while you're there.