NationStates Jolt Archive

I don't get it! I really don't. It just seems so odd...and you're right next door to us...how can I not understand? I see it reflected in your media...your news, your entertainment. This tension between white and black, mostly...with growing 'latino' tension and some recent anti-anyone-who-looks-arab sentiment.

I watched Crash and some stupid movie with Ashton Kutchner and Bernie Mac (name?) recently, and both were trying to make this kind of statement on race relations that just went over my head. I don't see that here...Canadians are just different. Not that we don't have our racists...never think that! But this kind of "our culture" versus "their culture", white versus black, latino versus whatever...do we mix more than you? What is it?

It's hard to even define...it just strikes me as so foreign. Our tensions are more socio-economic I think...because even our poor are ethnically diverse rather than overrepresented (overall) by a particular group. It would be silly to say "black culture" here...because most Canadian blacks are Carribbean, or directly from Africa. They all have very distinct cultures and histories, and even our 'projects' (the first one built in North America is in Ontario) are ethnically diverse. So what the hell keeps you guys so divided still? Numbers? What?

Everyone blames everyone else...but really...why is this tension still so high?

Hard to say. There seem to be two groups: one is people who think that the system of slavery and the subsequent segregation still has lasting effects that need to be handles, and one group who doesn't. The problem is that when one group does something, the other undoes it, so nothing gets done.

On an unrelated note, I'd put "Crash" as one of the 5 best movies of all time.

i don't get it either :confused:

i would guess the media have something do with it: both misrepresenting the scale of the problem in order to get a story, and concurrently spurring on the problem itself by doing this. but obviously, i dunno really :confused:


here in the UK most people don't care at all - there's little racial stigma or problems. there are, hoewever, a very vocal (and often violent) few who give us all bad names (fucking BNP). ok they got elected to local office somewhere but the people who live there must all be twats or something

then again most british people hate the french (another thing i don't get ;))

Weird indeed.

Actually, that reminded me of this (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=cop_movie) article.

I don't get it! I really don't. It just seems so odd...and you're right next door to us...how can I not understand? I see it reflected in your media...your news, your entertainment. This tension between white and black, mostly...with growing 'latino' tension and some recent anti-anyone-who-looks-arab sentiment.

I watched Crash and some stupid movie with Ashton Kutchner and Bernie Mac (name?) recently, and both were trying to make this kind of statement on race relations that just went over my head. I don't see that here...Canadians are just different. Not that we don't have our racists...never think that! But this kind of "our culture" versus "their culture", white versus black, latino versus whatever...do we mix more than you? What is it?

It's hard to even define...it just strikes me as so foreign. Our tensions are more socio-economic I think...because even our poor are ethnically diverse rather than overrepresented (overall) by a particular group. It would be silly to say "black culture" here...because most Canadian blacks are Carribbean, or directly from Africa. They all have very distinct cultures and histories, and even our 'projects' (the first one built in North America is in Ontario) are ethnically diverse. So what the hell keeps you guys so divided still? Numbers? What?

Everyone blames everyone else...but really...why is this tension still so high?


The tension is nowhere near as high as it was when I was young in the 1970s.

Movies are a bad way to view any society. Movies are generally full of crap.

Case in point - the whole black/white Southern thing.

I live in Virginia - a noticeably Southern state. There are many white rednecks that live around me (and many Hispanics as recent arrivals).

Movies, and some of the people on this forum, would tell you that poor white trash rednecks would never socialize, let alone date, marry, and have children with blacks.

I am a witness to a large extended family (my wife is white, and I'm talking about her extended family) that is extensively cross related with a large black family. I'm not talking 2 or 3 people - I'm talking about hundreds of people.

If you met any of the men on my wife's side of the family, and you saw them standing there not saying anything, you would think you were looking at the quintessential white American redneck - crewcut, tattoos, hunting dog, chewing tobacco, redneck t-shirt, and accent.

But these are the most un-racial people you'll ever meet. And the two families have gotten along since the 1960s - without being told to do so by the government. And despite the best efforts of the movies and TV to say that it doesn't happen.

None of them understood the Bernie Mac movie (where the white boy comes over for dinner) either.

A recent funeral was attended by both families here in Herndon. We couldn't fit everyone in the massive funeral home all at once, so we took it in five shifts.

Don't believe everything you see in the movies. And don't believe what some foreigners tell you about America or the South - especially if they haven't lived here.

The tension is nowhere near as high as it was when I was young in the 1970s.
and nowhere near as high as in the 60's of course :p

and before that you had aphartide, so go figure...

On an unrelated note, I'd put "Crash" as one of the 5 best movies of all time.

I don't know if I'd say one of my top 5, but it was indeed and much to my surprise an excellent film.

and nowhere near as high as in the 60's of course :p

and before that you had aphartide, so go figure...
Ah...apartheid...well, not entirely accurate that...apartheid was a wonderful system based on the Canadian Reservation system for First Nations people, lovingly exported to South Africa. Segregation...well that's a bit different than creating 'homelands'. Still a crock of shit...but let's not mix terms:p

and nowhere near as high as in the 60's of course :p

and before that you had aphartide, so go figure...

Can't say that about the whole US, even pre-1960. And we never used the word "apartheid". That was a Dutch colonist's invention.

Some of the US was bad pre-1960. But some of it most certainly was not.

Isn't there alot of tension between french speaking individuals and english speaking ones in Canada?

So...am I to believe then that media portrayals (and I'm talking the news, not just entertainment) of racial relations in the US is complete horseshit? I find that hard to believe. Race seems to be a real issue in the US...or are you saying, Sierra, that this 'problem' is a media creation? Life imitating art?

Isn't there alot of tension between french speaking individuals and english speaking ones in Canada?
A lot of tension? Not really, unless you live in specific areas (Québec for example). The French have a lot of clout in Canada because of our Charter of Rights (which protects anglophones and francophones equally). So they have a lot of say in Education and policy. They are hardly disenfranchised, and the tension is more political maneuvering than anything ethnically based.

the tension is more political maneuvering than anything ethnically based.There's some of that to a degree between the races here, as well. But I wouldn't say that there isn't a problem, just that it's not as widespread as might be assumed from the media.

So...am I to believe then that media portrayals (and I'm talking the news, not just entertainment) of racial relations in the US is complete horseshit? I find that hard to believe. Race seems to be a real issue in the US...or are you saying, Sierra, that this 'problem' is a media creation? Life imitating art?

I'm not saying racism is gone in all places. And I'm not saying that it isn't bad in some places.

But around where I'm living, it's not an issue. Especially among younger people.

I am the product of an interracial couple. So are my children. So are most of our neighbors.

Both the media and the government want to convey the sense of "separateness". That's why the census begrudgingly allowed people to mark more than one race on the form the last time around - before, you were one of five races - or else.

Separateness keeps you occupied with the idea of voting in blocs, against your own personal needs, instead of using your brain. It allows advertisers to target you more easily as a market if you believe their hype.

Separateness also makes it easier for other people to ignore your problems.

Separateness also makes people forget about class divisions - they are too busy fighting each other to bother with trying to make life better.

It's a lot better than the movies indicate. It's not over - but it's on the way. Have enough interracial couples having babies, and it disappears on its own over time.

Isn't there alot of tension between french speaking individuals and english speaking ones in Canada?

Actually I think it's more of a west/east thing than an English /French thing. I live in Ottawa, 10 minute drive to Quebec, we have no issues with Quebec at all. In fact Quebec is probably the most fun province to go to in the country in my opinion. Montreal is a gas, nicest people you'd ever want to meet. And yes, I'm English, although, I do have a lot of French roots.

There's some of that to a degree between the races here, as well. But I wouldn't say that there isn't a problem, just that it's not as widespread as might be assumed from the media.
So there isn't a segregation based on race still unofficially in place? Because that's kind of what I'm talking about here...the idea that it's still hard to be accepted into one of the 'races'. That there are distinct cultures with no real bridges...I see that here in terms of socioeconomics, but in most cases this divide cuts across race.

And it's also about attitude I guess...again, nothing official...just ideas and thoughts and beliefs about people based on their race. In the US, there is a different history of racial relations that colours those beliefs than in Canada, so there is bound to be differences...but are certain beliefs just taken for granted as existing?

Actually I think it's more of a west/east thing than an English /French thing. I live in Ottawa, 10 minute drive to Quebec, we have no issues with Quebec at all. In fact Quebec is probably the most fun province to go to in the country in my opinion. Montreal is a gas, nicest people you'd ever want to meet. And yes, I'm English, although, I do have a lot of French roots.
Yeah, Canada has some major divisions based on political geography.

So there isn't a segregation based on race still unofficially in place? Because that's kind of what I'm talking about here...the idea that it's still hard to be accepted into one of the 'races'. That there are distinct cultures with no real bridges...I see that here in terms of socioeconomics, but in most cases this divide cuts across race.

And it's also about attitude I guess...again, nothing official...just ideas and thoughts and beliefs about people based on their race. In the US, there is a different history of racial relations that colours those beliefs than in Canada, so there is bound to be differences...but are certain beliefs just taken for granted as existing?Well, it is legal for a country club, for instance, to not allow blacks in, so I guess you could say that segregation does in fact, exist unofficially.

So there isn't a segregation based on race still unofficially in place?
Technically, it is illegal to "steer" people to neighborhoods. But, people in some cases tend to "steer" themselves.

You're much more likely to run into a wall between economic classes than you are between races here in the US.

Well, it is legal for a country club, for instance, to not allow blacks in, so I guess you could say that segregation does in fact, exist unofficially.
????

Seriously????

then again most british people hate the french (another thing i don't get ;))
That comes from the ancient rivalry during the Hundred Years' War, over the British colonies in France from William the Conqueror's time. The French won the British colonies, and since then the British have hated them, which is weird because by right all their land belongs to Italy... :confused: :D

Well, it is legal for a country club, for instance, to not allow blacks in, so I guess you could say that segregation does in fact, exist unofficially.

That's messed up. Don't know what else to say.. it's like the 21st century, you would have thought the human race would have come further by now. I am disappointed daily by how little we seem to learn ("we" being the human race)

????

Seriously????

As long as you are a private organization that does not receive government funds, you can pick and choose your own members.

But, if it can be shown that you are substantially a public organization or place of accomodation, you can't segregate that way.

You'll also notice that there are no poor people at these country clubs. Not when it costs over a million dollars to become a member.

????

Seriously????
Yep. The Supreme Court ruled that private groups were allowed to make whatever decisions they wanted to make regarding acceptance into the group.

The odd thing was that this decision was made regarding the Boy Scouts of America, which is...well, if it's a private group, then you've got a very loose definition of what a private group is.

Yep. The Supreme Court ruled that private groups were allowed to make whatever decisions they wanted to make regarding acceptance into the group.

The odd thing was that this decision was made regarding the Boy Scouts of America, which is...well, if it's a private group, then you've got a very loose definition of what a private group is.

If I recall correctly, there is more of a problem with country clubs that won't allow women to be members than there are country clubs that won't allow African-Americans to be members (in fact, I think that since Tiger Woods became popular, the number has plummeted). But for some reason, there are still clubs that don't allow women.

I believe this was an issue at the Master's a few years ago. Women in clubs.

Hmmmm....the whole private group thing...I wonder how that works here? A lot of the protections we assume we have apply only to government jobs....

That's messed up. Don't know what else to say.. it's like the 21st century, you would have thought the human race would have come further by now. I am disappointed daily by how little we seem to learn ("we" being the human race)

Learning, like other mental activity, requires effort people aren't willing to put in.

If I recall correctly, there is more of a problem with country clubs that won't allow women to be members than there are country clubs that won't allow African-Americans to be members (in fact, I think that since Tiger Woods became popular, the number has plummeted). But for some reason, there are still clubs that don't allow women.

I believe this was an issue at the Master's a few years ago. Women in clubs.
Ah, right, the female golfer created a minor havoc. They did let her in, eventually.

All of this shows that there is, in fact, a niche market for racism...but that's a separate debate.

I'm not saying racism is gone in all places. And I'm not saying that it isn't bad in some places.

But around where I'm living, it's not an issue. Especially among younger people.

I am the product of an interracial couple. So are my children. So are most of our neighbors.

Both the media and the government want to convey the sense of "separateness". That's why the census begrudgingly allowed people to mark more than one race on the form the last time around - before, you were one of five races - or else.

Separateness keeps you occupied with the idea of voting in blocs, against your own personal needs, instead of using your brain. It allows advertisers to target you more easily as a market if you believe their hype.

Separateness also makes it easier for other people to ignore your problems.

Separateness also makes people forget about class divisions - they are too busy fighting each other to bother with trying to make life better.

It's a lot better than the movies indicate. It's not over - but it's on the way. Have enough interracial couples having babies, and it disappears on its own over time.

Although I do think racism is still a serious issue in the US -- particularly institutionalized racism, here is a source that backs Sierra BTHP up on the issue of interracial relationships.

U.S. Attitudes Toward Interracial Dating Are Liberalizing (http://www.prb.org/Template.cfm?Section=PRB&template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=12690):

"The percentage of all U.S. married couples that are interracial nearly doubled from 2.9 percent to 5.4 percent between 1990 and 2000, to a total of more than 3 million.1 And recent surveys reveal that American attitudes toward intermarriage have also steadily improved: While 70 percent of adults in 1986 said they approved of interracial marriage, that figure had climbed to 83 percent by 2003, according to a Roper Reports study.2"

I just think it's interesting...racial relations I mean. My husband comes from a very ethnically homogenous country (Chile) that prides itself on tolerance...but they treat their natives like shit (even though most Chileans brag about their speck or two of native blood) and they really have never had to practice much 'tolerance' considering there are so few 'others' to 'tolerate'. So what they hell do they know?

Hmmmm....the whole private group thing...I wonder how that works here? A lot of the protections we assume we have apply only to government jobs....

No, they just don't apply in private. In public accomodation (such as a regular restaurant) the protections DO apply.

Sierra BTHP is painting an overly rosy picture.

There is considerable evidence that de facto segregration is actually increasing, particularly in schools. Many other indicators of discrimination are also worsening (although some are improving (but those are still often deplorable)).

Here is just a taste of the evidence:

The State of Black America (javascript:Launch('publications/SOBA/2005SOBAEXCSUMMARY.pdf');)
A Multiracial Society with Segregated Schools
Are We Losing the Dream? (http://www.civilrightsproject.harvard.edu/research/reseg03/resegregation03.php)
Discrimination in Metropolitan Housing Markets (http://www.urban.org/Template.cfm?Section=ByTopic&NavMenuID=62&template=/TaggedContent/ViewPublication.cfm&PublicationID=7982)

No, they just don't apply in private. In public accomodation (such as a regular restaurant) the protections DO apply.
But to me, that's the tough distinction. What is 'private' and what is 'public'. I would think a registered charity would be public...but they can be very specific about to whom their funds go...based on religion or race or gender or whatever...clearly that isn't considered discrimination, since you can choose to contribute or not. And I've been wondering...have you heard of Curves, the work-out place for women? Could a man challenge the gender requirement I wonder, and win?

But to me, that's the tough distinction. What is 'private' and what is 'public'. I would think a registered charity would be public...but they can be very specific about to whom their funds go...based on religion or race or gender or whatever...clearly that isn't considered discrimination, since you can choose to contribute or not. And I've been wondering...have you heard of Curves, the work-out place for women? Could a man challenge the gender requirement I wonder, and win?I doubt it. But it's possible. Hooters can't discriminate against men.

I can recall sitting in a restaurant in North Carolina in 1988 with my girlfriend (Filipino) and her roomate (black), and nobody cared (or at least said anything) about the racial diversity at our table. But I remember thinking that at the time the three of us had been born (1966), it would have been illegal for the three of us to sit together at that very same restaurant. We wouldn't have been allowed in the door - at least, my girlfriend's roommate would certainly not have been, and it's possible they would have tried to keep my girlfriend out too. And if we'd said anything about it, we would have been arrested, because the law said it was legal and proper to discriminate by race. That's a lot of progress in a little over twenty years - from enforced segregation to complete tolerance in one generation.

Of course, it's not complete tolerance - there are still a lot of people from older generations, and even my generation, who are quite racist and who would gladly bring back legal segregation. But it's not going to happen. I'm hoping that we'll get to the point of complete racial tolerance in another generation or two. Actually, I'm hoping that the very idea of race goes away - it's a silly distinction, one with no real value.

Sierra BTHP is painting an overly rosy picture.

There is considerable evidence that de facto segregration is actually increasing, particularly in schools. Many other indicators of discrimination are also worsening (although some are improving (but those are still often deplorable)).

Here is just a taste of the evidence:

The State of Black America (javascript:Launch('publications/SOBA/2005SOBAEXCSUMMARY.pdf');)
A Multiracial Society with Segregated Schools
Are We Losing the Dream? (http://www.civilrightsproject.harvard.edu/research/reseg03/resegregation03.php)
Discrimination in Metropolitan Housing Markets (http://www.urban.org/Template.cfm?Section=ByTopic&NavMenuID=62&template=/TaggedContent/ViewPublication.cfm&PublicationID=7982)


You'll also notice that segregation is not necessarily being done by "evil whites" - some people of certain races and ethnicity tend to gravitate to the same neighborhoods because they want to live together.

Case in point - the Salvadoreans who live in Herndon. Not just any "Hispanic" people - these are a tight knit community of people from El Salvador.

They live together because they feel they incur advantages.

But to me, that's the tough distinction. What is 'private' and what is 'public'. I would think a registered charity would be public...but they can be very specific about to whom their funds go...based on religion or race or gender or whatever...clearly that isn't considered discrimination, since you can choose to contribute or not. And I've been wondering...have you heard of Curves, the work-out place for women? Could a man challenge the gender requirement I wonder, and win?

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

You are mixing a lot of issues together and heading into deep waters.

The line of what is a public accomodation versus a private club is a complex one and groups wishing to claim to be fully private and thereby not covered by the Civil Rights Acts must often defend that position in court. (If the group is of any significance.)

Also, not all discrimination is automatically illegal. There are varying tests that apply to determine whether there is sufficient justification for distinguishing between members of different groups.

This gets into some very complicated issues, but we can go there if you wish.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

You are mixing a lot of issues together and heading into deep waters.

The line of what is a public accomodation versus a private club is a complex one and groups wishing to claim to be fully private and thereby not covered by the Civil Rights Acts must often defend that position in court. (If the group is of any significance.)

Also, not all discrimination is automatically illegal. There are varying tests that apply to determine whether there is sufficient justification for distinguishing between members of different groups.

This gets into some very complicated issues, but we can go there if you wish.


It's pretty simple if you're eating at Denny's.

You'll also notice that segregation is not necessarily being done by "evil whites" - some people of certain races and ethnicity tend to gravitate to the same neighborhoods because they want to live together.

Case in point - the Salvadoreans who live in Herndon. Not just any "Hispanic" people - these are a tight knit community of people from El Salvador.

They live together because they feel they incur advantages.

I certainly agree that not all discrimination is done by "evil whites."

But if you look at some of the discrimination in housing, employment, etc., you will see a general problem of "whites" (particularly white males) discriminating against other groups and disproportionately benefiting from discrimination.

This is not to say that some segregation is not chosen by the minority group itself or that minorities do not discriminate amongst themselves. It is also not to say that white males are not victims of discrimination.

But, by and large, African-Americans still are getting the short end of the stick.

This gets into some very complicated issues, but we can go there if you wish.
Oh, I wish:)

No, actually....I think I need a deeper understanding, and that's going to take more effort than I can handle right now...but if you want to head into my LAWYERS! thread, you could be of help!

And Sierra...that whole Denny's thing...I remember Ice Cube going on about it, but I never really heard the story...what's the deal?

It's pretty simple if you're eating at Denny's.

Agreed. Sometimes the questions were easy. My point was sometimes they get very hard and Sin seemed to be headed towards the hard end.

I don't get it! I really don't. It just seems so odd...and you're right next door to us...how can I not understand? I see it reflected in your media...your news, your entertainment. This tension between white and black, mostly...with growing 'latino' tension and some recent anti-anyone-who-looks-arab sentiment.

I watched Crash and some stupid movie with Ashton Kutchner and Bernie Mac (name?) recently, and both were trying to make this kind of statement on race relations that just went over my head. I don't see that here...Canadians are just different. Not that we don't have our racists...never think that! But this kind of "our culture" versus "their culture", white versus black, latino versus whatever...do we mix more than you? What is it?

It's hard to even define...it just strikes me as so foreign. Our tensions are more socio-economic I think...because even our poor are ethnically diverse rather than overrepresented (overall) by a particular group. It would be silly to say "black culture" here...because most Canadian blacks are Carribbean, or directly from Africa. They all have very distinct cultures and histories, and even our 'projects' (the first one built in North America is in Ontario) are ethnically diverse. So what the hell keeps you guys so divided still? Numbers? What?

Everyone blames everyone else...but really...why is this tension still so high?

The problem is racist minorties.....:(

Agreed. Sometimes the questions were easy. My point was sometimes they get very hard and Sin seemed to be headed towards the hard end.
That's generally the place I gravitate toward:D

The problem is racist minorties.....:(
Thanks for pointing out an example of how easy it is to just blame someone else.

I used to work at a Jewish-only golf club (they hired non-Jew employees), and most states allow you to keep different groups apart if you're operating a business (e.g. keeping college kids out of a bar visited mostly by retirees).. I've seen that plenty.. That's not really the same as segregation, and not much of a surprise.. so..

In my area, we have a whole range of people living in the subdivision, and no real problems.. 30 years ago, my part of town was pretty bad off for crime, but nowadays it's not so bad.

That's generally the place I gravitate toward:D
Also, note the abbreviation for your name.

Thanks for pointing out an example of how easy it is to just blame someone else.

Lol, Well its true.....racists are the problem....

racist whites: Think they are better than everyone. the master race. too bad they can't get a steady job and stop burning crosses.

racist blacks: Blame the "white devils" for all their problems. Want reparations from former slave-owners who are now in-debt redneck trailer trash. mostly gangsters and street criminals who goal in life is to kill a white cop.

racist hispanics:want spanish as an offical language. mostly illegal immigrants too begin with but think they should control the political process.

racist asains:hate the american government but for some reason wont go back to their "wonderful" third world countries with their corrupt governments.

These groups are ruining America....:(

Lol, Well its true.....racists are the problem....

racist whites: Think they are better than everyone. the master race. too bad they can't get a steady job and stop burning crosses.

racist blacks: Blame the "white devils" for all their problems. Want reparations from former slave-owners who are now in-debt redneck trailer trash. mostly gangsters and street criminals who goal in life is to kill a white cop.

racist hispanics:want spanish as an offical language. mostly illegal immigrants too begin with but think they should control the political process.

racist asains:hate the american government but for some reason wont go back to their "wonderful" third world countries with their corrupt governments.

These groups are ruining America....:(

And then there is whatever group you belong to ..... definitely not one that is helping heal the racial divides.

I'm in the "stand idly by" group.:D

I don't care about racism beacuse it doesn't play a big part in my life. (luckily)
Frankly, I don't want to do anything, but pointing out the problem is something....

I don't see the problem.

And most elderly whites I run across start conversations with me, in public places where they could simply ignore me.

Unfortunately, I just haven't run across that much in my life. I have had more problems with fellow black people, than I have ever had with any other race/culture, especially over the phone, when they can only hear me and not see me (I speak too well for some people, they assume I must be white, and treat me poorly accordingly:( )

Well, with the exception of that one Japanese fellow in 7th grade...

I was born in New Jersey, and moved to Los Angeles area at the age of 10 years, and am now 46 going on 47, married to a mixed woman (who gets mistaken for a spanish-speaker, even though she has none of that blood!).

It should be noted that "Guess Who", the Kutcher/Mack movie previously mentioned, is a remake of "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" starring Sidney Poitier. In THAT film, it was a black man marrying a white woman that caused all the controversy.

I think you're reading WAY too much into the fact that Hollywood is so unoriginal they are taking old films and remaking them. (Ocean's 11, for instance....)

Lol, Well its true.....racists are the problem....

racist whites: Think they are better than everyone. the master race. too bad they can't get a steady job and stop burning crosses.

racist blacks: Blame the "white devils" for all their problems. Want reparations from former slave-owners who are now in-debt redneck trailer trash. mostly gangsters and street criminals who goal in life is to kill a white cop.

racist hispanics:want spanish as an offical language. mostly illegal immigrants too begin with but think they should control the political process.

racist asains:hate the american government but for some reason wont go back to their "wonderful" third world countries with their corrupt governments.

These groups are ruining America....:(Don't forget the racist whites who want to make English the official language. (In the U.S., there is no official language.)

There are officially no official languages, however virtually all the officials use English in their official communications, so unofficially English is the official language.[/Sir Humphrey Appleby]