NationStates Jolt Archive

It occurred to me that it's pretty darn simple not to be poor. I was listening to a radio program where the merits of the Fair Tax were being discussed and of course the return of capital to the U.S. was mention. That's when I started thinking about how easy it is not to become poor and dependent on the government.

First, we are handed a piss-poor public education, but it's free. If you apply yourself, you can make great grades, get scholarships and get more education. So the first rule to follow in how to not be poor is to stay in school and get as much free education as you can.

Second, don't get pregnant or father any children out of wedlock. That's more than just a moral statement. You can't take advantage of educational and occupational opportunities when you are seventeen or eighteen and have a couple illegitimate kids. Wait until you are married and have the means to support kids before you have any.

Third, get a job. Get any job. Work at it until you get enough experience or connections to get a better job. No one hands out $50,000 dollar a year jobs to someone without any work experience. Not unless you have taken advantage of an awful lot of free education.

Last, don't acquire a criminal record. That's another sure way down the tubes.

Pretty simple, huh?

You forgot something.

"Don't sit around wasting time blaming your plight on <slavery, the Man, racism, capitalism, evil corporations, the President, religion, the war, your parents>. Get off your ass and do something."

You forgot don't get cancer, or any other expensive illness or injury. Or failing that, stay home and die for free. That's an excellent way to stay out of debt.

You forgot don't get cancer, or any other expensive illness or injury. Or failing that, stay home and die for free. That's an excellent way to stay out of debt.

Most people don't get cancer. Especially when they're young.

You forgot something.

"Don't sit around wasting time blaming your plight on <slavery, the Man, racism, capitalism, evil corporations, the President, religion, the war, your parents>. Get off your ass and do something."
If you're working two jobs to pay for tuition, rent, and groceries, there isn't time to feel sorry for your self. There isn't even enough time to sleep. At least there wasn't when I did it.

Or, be born to a rich parent. Pow! Instant far better quality education, and even if you are a complete dumbass and lazy, and don't take advantage of the fact you've got a massive head start in life - you can always come crawling back to daddy to support you.

the best way to get out of poverty is just what you said. even just graduating from a crappy highschool when combined with modest job experience, even "you want fries with that?" kinda employment, should start you on your way to a reasonable independant existance.

but you have to stay away from drugs, you have to stay away from gangs and you have to make sure you dont become a parent until you have already escaped from poverty. you have to be willing to move well away from the neighborhood you grew up in. and you have to avoid those people who say its not possible.

the trouble is, one mistake and youve ruined your chance. how many 20 year olds do you know who have never made a mistake? its pretty hard to avoid when you are surrounded by people trying to convince you that your way is stupid and their way is great.

Or, be born to a rich parent. Pow! Instant far better quality education, and even if you are a complete dumbass and lazy, and don't take advantage of the fact you've got a massive head start in life - you can always come crawling back to daddy to support you.

Didn't work for me. My father was a multimillionaire.

I intentionally left home when I was 17 and never looked back. Didn't get a nice car, didn't get a credit card, didn't get any money.

Worked my own way through college. Spent some time as an enlisted infantryman. Worked my way through law school. Parents NEVER helped me and I NEVER asked.

Still don't talk to my father. There's a terrible price to be paid when your parents "give" you money. I wasn't willing to pay that price.

I want to give a good comment, but I can't think of anything good that doesn't come without copious levels of insulting.

So I will go with a lame one..
How not to be poor: fall into a creek as a toddler.

Didn't work for me. My father was a multimillionaire.

I intentionally left home when I was 17 and never looked back. Didn't get a nice car, didn't get a credit card, didn't get any money.

Worked my own way through college. Spent some time as an enlisted infantryman. Worked my way through law school. Parents NEVER helped me and I NEVER asked.

Still don't talk to my father. There's a terrible price to be paid when your parents "give" you money. I wasn't willing to pay that price.

Good for you - if that was the case with all children of rich parents, then we'd have a great meritocracy where people genuinely rise and fall on their own merits, and not because of what their parents have/don't have. The only thing left would be to abolish all inheritance :D

Unfortunately, that isn't the case. Until it is, I will support socialist policies which help those who have little chance in life.

Good for you - if that was the case with all children of rich parents, then we'd have a great meritocracy where people genuinely rise and fall on their own merits, and not because of what their parents have/don't have. The only thing left would be to abolish all inheritance :D

Unfortunately, that isn't the case. Until it is, I will support socialist policies which help those who have little chance in life.

I'm not getting any inheritance either. My sisters were more than willing to grovel and subordinate their own personalities to my parents.

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/hlthaff.w5.63/DC1

Above links to just one randomly selected article on the effects of catastrophic health care costs. There is some debate on the issue. I, however, think it is reasonable to assume that a sudden hit of overwhelming costs is likely to knock a middle/working class person's finances out of whack long enough to slip into poverty. Not many young people get cancer, but young people do suffer injuries and other illnesses, and young people often do have children, which are not cheap, either.

Another good way to avoid becoming poor, if you're not born into it, is not to use credit. Just pay cash, kids.

Well ... I'll take that all under advisement, but there's a problem ...

1] I dropped out of high school.

2] I have 4 kids.

3] I have a criminal record.

4] I'm now a teacher. Muhahahahahahaha!!!

Most of the time, overcoming poverty is a matter of putting aside your past, rather than wallowing in it. Mistakes happen ... what you take from those mistakes is up to you.

is not to use credit

Best. Advise. Evar.

Worked my own way through college. Spent some time as an enlisted infantryman. Worked my way through law school. Parents NEVER helped me and I NEVER asked.

You'll never become President with that attitude.

You forgot: "Be born in a Western country." It's the most difficult task and most people fail at it.

You'll never become President with that attitude.

I never joined a fraternity, either, so I guess I'm screwed.

don't get into debt. once you got that you're boned and the banks pwn your ass

I never joined a fraternity, either, so I guess I'm screwed.

Doh! Now you can't even make Congressman!

You forgot: "Be born in a Western country." It's the most difficult task and most people fail at it.
oooh yeah that is the toughest.

its so hard to go to school when your family cant afford the shoes that are a prerequisite for attendance.

Still don't talk to my father. There's a terrible price to be paid when your parents "give" you money. I wasn't willing to pay that price.

Not talking to your own flesh and blood is also a terrible price to pay, no?

Not talking to your own flesh and blood is also a terrible price to pay, no?

Not in this case.

Not talking to your own flesh and blood is also a terrible price to pay, no?

No... not in this case either. I've never been in the military not to law school, but ever since I brought my father to court to pay for my two younger brothers, he denies I exist. I never got money from him, I got to publicly humiliate him, and now I don't even have to talk to him. I love it! :D

Seriously, though. The trick not to be poor is determination, simple as that. You can stay dumb as a doorknob, you can have as many kids as you want, you can be born in the first world or the third, nothing of that is going to hinder you if you are determined.
The downside of this is, however, that you also need a certain amount of cruelty and disregard for others. The smallest kind and social action can be your downfall.
Personally, I'd rather be kind than rich...

Not in this case.

Only you can say in this case, however in other instances not taking backing from them doesn't necessitate going incommunicado.

oooh yeah that is the toughest.

its so hard to go to school when your family cant afford the shoes that are a prerequisite for attendance.Have you seen all the people swarming over the barbed wire fences separating the spanish enclaves from Morocco? A lot of them have college degrees.

I dunno what the situation in the US is, but one problem in the UK is the lack of opportunities for decent jobs. It wasn't long ago that somebody who wasn't academically qualified could learn a trade and get a job where he could support a wife, kids and a home on his income alone. These days if you aren't academically qualified you will go into one of these new jobs that Blair boasts about creating. Most of them are in supermarkets. Which makes life near impossible with the current costs of living.

It occurred to me that it's pretty darn simple not to be poor. I was listening to a radio program where the merits of the Fair Tax were being discussed and of course the return of capital to the U.S. was mention. That's when I started thinking about how easy it is not to become poor and dependent on the government.

First, we are handed a piss-poor public education, but it's free. If you apply yourself, you can make great grades, get scholarships and get more education. So the first rule to follow in how to not be poor is to stay in school and get as much free education as you can.

Second, don't get pregnant or father any children out of wedlock. That's more than just a moral statement. You can't take advantage of educational and occupational opportunities when you are seventeen or eighteen and have a couple illegitimate kids. Wait until you are married and have the means to support kids before you have any.

Third, get a job. Get any job. Work at it until you get enough experience or connections to get a better job. No one hands out $50,000 dollar a year jobs to someone without any work experience. Not unless you have taken advantage of an awful lot of free education.

Last, don't acquire a criminal record. That's another sure way down the tubes.

Pretty simple, huh?

If you're going to make a statement like that why post it on the internet where only people who have enough money to afford computers and internet connections can respond to it?

If you're so sure of yourself then go to the ghettos, go to the countries where children have to slave for 12 hours a day to support their families, go to the countries torn apart by civil war and cry out: 'YOU WOULDN'T BE IN THIS MESS IF YOU WEREN'T SO DAMN LAZY!!!'

Maybe then you'll learn something.

If you're going to make a statement like that why post it on the internet where only people who have enough money to afford computers and internet connections can respond to it?

If you're so sure of yourself then go to the ghettos, go to the countries where children have to slave for 12 hours a day to support their families, go to the countries torn apart by civil war and cry out: 'YOU WOULDN'T BE IN THIS MESS IF YOU WEREN'T SO DAMN LAZY!!!'

Maybe then you'll learn something.

Been there, done that. And it works. A lot of them are doomed by their overwrought sense of entitlement without work.

You forgot: "Be born in a Western country." It's the most difficult task and most people fail at it.
I'm surprised that the trivial answers weren't more creative. Seems to me, I was talking about how not to be poor in the U.S., but I might be mistaken.

Best. Advise. Evar.
And the hardest to follow. Credit is worse than heroine.

Or, you could try these:

*Don't be born with severe mental retardation.
*Have parents who will instill in you the value of education.
*Establish and develop criminal connections.
*Don't be a member of a racial/ethnic minority living in an area that is heavily biased against your racial/ethnic group.

Or, you could try these:

*Don't be born with severe mental retardation.
*Have parents who will instill in you the value of education.
*Establish and develop criminal connections.
*Don't be a member of a racial/ethnic minority living in an area that is heavily biased against your racial/ethnic group.

No, let's try this one:

*Don't be born with a sense of entitlement - that somehow, the government or some other ethnic group owes you something for something that happened 140 years ago.

*Don't be unfortunate enough to be born into a housing project that was the dream child of the Democratic party - an eternal trap custom designed to sap the will and crush the initiative out of anyone who is born there - a trap designed that way by the Democrats to isolate the unwanted of society from the white suburbs.

Shall I continue?

No, let's try this one:

*Don't be born with a sense of entitlement - that somehow, the government or some other ethnic group owes you something for something that happened 140 years ago.

*Don't be unfortunate enough to be born into a housing project that was the dream child of the Democratic party - an eternal trap custom designed to sap the will and crush the initiative out of anyone who is born there - a trap designed that way by the Democrats to isolate the unwanted of society from the white suburbs.

Shall I continue?Sure, if you like.

I'm surprised that the trivial answers weren't more creative. Seems to me, I was talking about how not to be poor in the U.S., but I might be mistaken.
A lot of people consider poverty to be a global issue, not a local one. One of their arguments might be that, if third world workers were better off, we might not be seeing the wholesale outsourcing of American labor today, which is leading slowly to the downgrading of American wages to third world levels, thus making it harder for Americans to avoid sliding into poverty.

Even if that's not true, while your statements about avoiding poverty are not false, they express a simplistic view of what poverty is and how it works. Your suggested steps are useful to those opting out of society to an extent, which is probably not a bad idea (doing for oneself) in a society that provides no services, or services that are worse than the problem. However, they do not address the issue of American poverty, nor is opting out a way to strengthen society. I guess, it depends on whether you care about society as an entity.

I guess, it depends on whether you care about society as an entity.

1. Other places now have a taste of American consumerism and American-style economy. Places like India and China are growing at extreme rates (economically). Sure, some are being left behind - but many are now asking for the same wages they get in America. Programmers from India used to be a lot cheaper - more and more of them want the pay increased - and it's increasing.

2. The reason that Communism failed is because the individual cares about themself first - before caring about the country or world. It's human nature. People who do not think this way are unnatural.

I guess, it depends on whether you care about society as an entity.

1. Other places now have a taste of American consumerism and American-style economy. Places like India and China are growing at extreme rates (economically). Sure, some are being left behind - but many are now asking for the same wages they get in America. Programmers from India used to be a lot cheaper - more and more of them want the pay increased - and it's increasing.

2. The reason that Communism failed is because the individual cares about themself first - before caring about the country or world. It's human nature. People who do not think this way are unnatural.

avoid having parents who are drug users, alcoholics, abusive either physcially or sexually; parents who die while you're still young, leaving you to care for siblings; avoid growing up in a poor neighbourhood or reservation where random violence is rife, and loud parties keep you up all night; avoid living in a community where suicide is a weekly occurance, and drugs are easier to get than groceries; avoid working too much, even if it means the difference between eating raw oatmeal to feel 'full' and actually having enough to eat, because then you're too damn tired to study, or you can't help falling asleep in class because you crack the books until the wee hours; avoid going to a school that can't keep teachers for more than a month at a time, a school with no supplies and no one to actually teach the courses...avoid it because you'll still have to go AND teach yourself in the few hours you actually have between school and work.

Yeah. That's pretty damn simple.

avoid having parents who are drug users, alcoholics, abusive either physcially or sexually; parents who die while you're still young, leaving you to care for siblings; avoid growing up in a poor neighbourhood or reservation where random violence is rife, and loud parties keep you up all night; avoid living in a community where suicide is a weekly occurance, and drugs are easier to get than groceries; avoid working too much, even if it means the difference between eating raw oatmeal to feel 'full' and actually having enough to eat, because then you're too damn tired to study, or you can't help falling asleep in class because you crack the books until the wee hours; avoid going to a school that can't keep teachers for more than a month at a time, a school with no supplies and no one to actually teach the courses...avoid it because you'll still have to go AND teach yourself in the few hours you actually have between school and work.

Yeah. That's pretty damn simple.

Sinuhue, you'll never believe this - there was a guy on here yesterday who adamantly insisted that there was no more racism in Canada - especially not between First People and everyone else - he said that was all cleared up.

For some reason, Jolt is not letting me quote you Sierra. Anyway...HA! Racism is alive and well in Canada...but oh so hidden unless you happen to be on the receiving end. All cleared up? Hardly. Brushed under the rug? Yup. Aboriginal women have been turning up mutilated and decomposing on the outskirts of Edmonton and Calgary for decades and no one gives a shit. One white chick disappears, and there is a massive manhunt. Oh wait...the abos were prostitutes, so who cares, right? It's not about aboriginals, it's about prostitutes. Uh huh. And that's why municipal police still like to drive Indians outside of town and dump them, even after Neil Stonechild froze to death in Saskatchewan. That's why we damn Indians are so content and have just laid down our arms and embraced Canadians. No resentment exists anymore. What a relief that I, in a three piece suit, sitting in an upscale bar, get asked by the bartender if I'm pregnant, because I should know that drinking while pregnant causes FASD, and they can't serve me if I'm knocked up. Clearly I lack the education to understand these things, because I'm just a stupid Injun...who does not look remotely pregnant by the way. Nope, racism has been all cleared up.

Another good way to avoid becoming poor, if you're not born into it, is not to use credit. Just pay cash, kids.
No, because a good credit rating is useful for things like insurance. Get two cards, one debit, one credit. Never overdraw yourself on the credit card beyond what's on the debit card, and pay off the credit card with the debit card. If you discipline yourself it builds up a good credit rating really fast. If you've got full coverage it can lower your insurance 1-200 bucks per 6-month period.

No, because a good credit rating is useful for things like insurance. Get two cards, one debit, one credit. Never overdraw yourself on the credit card beyond what's on the debit card, and pay off the credit card with the debit card. If you discipline yourself it builds up a good credit rating really fast. If you've got full coverage it can lower your insurance 1-200 bucks per 6-month period.

Damn, you beat me to it. Was going to add "start building your credit rating while your still young." Helps you get a better rate on your mortgage too.

Damn, you beat me to it. Was going to add "start building your credit rating while your still young." Helps you get a better rate on your mortgage too.
Well really, without credit you don't exist. I don't mean literally...but take women of my mother's generation....or my grandmother's generation. Many with no bills in their name, no credit cards in their name...just a joint bank-account MAYBE with their husband's...they never really built up credit, and dealt just in cash. When my grandfather died, my grandma couldn't even transfer the utility bills to her name without a huge down payment (since she had no credit with them), couldn't get a loan to install a ramp and a new bath (a sit down one since she had osteoporosis and couldn't get in or out safely) because she had no credit with the bank...oh, it caused so many damn problems for her! It scared my mom so much she got some bills put in her name so she's at least a blip on the credit map. Cripes...most places won't even give you a video-club membership without a credit card!

But we encourage credit so much, without teaching people how to manage it. And it starts right after highschool...BAM! $26,000 in debt...going into it when you're 17 or 18? What the hell does a s 17 or 18 year old know about that kind of debt? Cripes. Kill me now.

It occurred to me that it's pretty darn simple not to be poor. I was listening to a radio program where the merits of the Fair Tax were being discussed and of course the return of capital to the U.S. was mention. That's when I started thinking about how easy it is not to become poor and dependent on the government.

First, we are handed a piss-poor public education, but it's free. If you apply yourself, you can make great grades, get scholarships and get more education. So the first rule to follow in how to not be poor is to stay in school and get as much free education as you can.

Second, don't get pregnant or father any children out of wedlock. That's more than just a moral statement. You can't take advantage of educational and occupational opportunities when you are seventeen or eighteen and have a couple illegitimate kids. Wait until you are married and have the means to support kids before you have any.

Third, get a job. Get any job. Work at it until you get enough experience or connections to get a better job. No one hands out $50,000 dollar a year jobs to someone without any work experience. Not unless you have taken advantage of an awful lot of free education.

Last, don't acquire a criminal record. That's another sure way down the tubes.

Pretty simple, huh?

I'm glad you figured it out, but it is probably too much to hope the people who really need figure it out will. Unfortunately, many people who are poor want to blame it on bad luck or anyone except themselves. :(

You forgot don't get cancer, or any other expensive illness or injury. Or failing that, stay home and die for free. That's an excellent way to stay out of debt.

Most people that are poor are not poor because of illness.

1. Other places now have a taste of American consumerism and American-style economy. Places like India and China are growing at extreme rates (economically). Sure, some are being left behind - but many are now asking for the same wages they get in America. Programmers from India used to be a lot cheaper - more and more of them want the pay increased - and it's increasing.

Actually, no.
The company I worked for moved part of their technical support facilities to Bangalore. The result regarding quality was devastating, and on inquiring if there are any plans of moving back, I got the reply that they currently pay an IT Specialist in India 120 Euros/month. Compared to the around 1800 Euros they would pay for the same worker in Europe, the quality would have to decrease to the point of non-existance, and even then I doubt they would ever move back.


2. The reason that Communism failed is because the individual cares about themself first - before caring about the country or world. It's human nature. People who do not think this way are unnatural.

Yay - I always knew it. I'm UNNATURAL! :D

Didn't work for me. My father was a multimillionaire.

I intentionally left home when I was 17 and never looked back. Didn't get a nice car, didn't get a credit card, didn't get any money.

Worked my own way through college. Spent some time as an enlisted infantryman. Worked my way through law school. Parents NEVER helped me and I NEVER asked.

Still don't talk to my father. There's a terrible price to be paid when your parents "give" you money. I wasn't willing to pay that price.

Okay, I understand that it's a matter of honor not accepting money from your father. But not speaking to him?? Isn't that a little harsh?

Okay, I understand that it's a matter of honor not accepting money from your father. But not speaking to him?? Isn't that a little harsh?

It's not about honor - it's about I hate the asshole.

I'm glad you figured it out, but it is probably too much to hope the people who really need figure it out will. Unfortunately, many people who are poor want to blame it on bad luck or anyone except themselves. :(
Yeah. That's almost as bad as people who blame everything that happens to a person on that person alone. As though people exist in a vacume, and are completely unaffected by their living conditions.:rolleyes:

Randome Advice #50892: Don't be born to a father who will eventually run into serious health problems, never have a job again, and has to be put on welfare.

...

It's not about honor - it's about I hate the asshole.

Ah, I see.

Anyway, this is an issue where I agree with both sides - there are plenty of factors you can't control, definitely, but people shouldn't blame their poverty completely on chance (depending on the person), and should realize that they are most likely at least partly responsible for their predicament.

Although I will revert back to the left in saying that that's still no reason not to help them get out of poverty.

How to not be poor 101

The first step in not being poor is to never be sick, ever. As a matter of fact, if you ever know anyone who will ever get sick, you have a 75% chance of ending up poor; so don't be born in a family that may one day have a family member become ill. The medical industry price-gouges at the gills and all doctors have signed an agreement to make as many people poor as possible.

Editor's Note: No offense to doctors, this is satire.

Laziness is ultimately the cause of poverty.

Laziness is ultimately the cause of poverty.
And stupidity, the ultimate cause of arrogance.

Didn't work for me. My father was a multimillionaire.

I intentionally left home when I was 17 and never looked back. Didn't get a nice car, didn't get a credit card, didn't get any money.

Worked my own way through college. Spent some time as an enlisted infantryman. Worked my way through law school. Parents NEVER helped me and I NEVER asked.

Still don't talk to my father. There's a terrible price to be paid when your parents "give" you money. I wasn't willing to pay that price.

What on earth is the price? You could, I assume, have obtained a comfortable office job, with reasonable pay and ease. Why one arth did you not do so?

And stupidity, the ultimate cause of arrogance.

*hands you a box of cookies*

Okay, I understand that it's a matter of honor not accepting money from your father. But not speaking to him?? Isn't that a little harsh?
There's probably more to the story, but I don't think it would be polite to prod further.

Laziness is ultimately the cause of poverty.I would agree, but with the caveat that the one who is lazy is always the one who is poor.

*hands you a box of cookies*
*Seizes 75% for redistribution programs*
*Redistributes to Wingarde and anyone else who will lend me support for favors*

Now, then, I very much like how everyone keeps bringing up the same tear jerker made for TV movie plot (oh me oh my, my family all just caught cancer and the dog exploded, now I must dwell in poverty) that will happen to such a negligible amount of the U.S. population as to make notation a worthless point.
Hows about not being the family martyr, then? Families are nice, but you aren't doing them any favors by sacrificing yourself in a grand gesture.
By watching your own back, you can keep others from having to watch it.

Pretty simple, huh?
Maybe too simple. In some areas (would you go as far as calling them "ghettos"?) being in school is just not the way people can feasibly spend their time. Peer pressure, money trouble and just generally the culture around those kids is not exactly conducive to hard work at school.

No, because a good credit rating is useful for things like insurance. Get two cards, one debit, one credit. Never overdraw yourself on the credit card beyond what's on the debit card, and pay off the credit card with the debit card. If you discipline yourself it builds up a good credit rating really fast. If you've got full coverage it can lower your insurance 1-200 bucks per 6-month period.
Those are the credit card companies (i.e. drug dealers) talking. I carry one card. It's my first and only card. I do have a balance on it now because I made the deliberate decision to pay for a very expensive move with it. I hardly use it otherwise. They keep upping my limit to try and get me to use it more. Before I moved, I never used it, and as soon as a certain inherited property is out of probate and sold, I will pay it off completely. I'm a cash-only kind of person. For years before I got this card (pre-approved), I was inundated with offers of cards, because I already had a good credit rating, even though I had never taken a loan for anything (not even college). I know several people like me and I haven't yet met a banker who said my approach was wrong. My point is that you don't need to use credit in order to build a credit rating.

EDIT: In fact, I have it on the authority of no fewer than 5 different bankers and 5 different banks in 3 US states that, the less credit you carry, the higher your rating is likely to be. The best info on which to base a credit rating is reliable bill paying and a lack of negative marks, such as delinquent bills and bounced checks -- in other words, good cash management.

I would agree, but with the caveat that the one who is lazy is always the one who is poor.

Huh. I suppose that explains why those notoriously lazy-ass American farmers are so poor that they only survive with the help of government subsidies.

If you're going to make a statement like that why post it on the internet where only people who have enough money to afford computers and internet connections can respond to it?

If you're so sure of yourself then go to the ghettos, go to the countries where children have to slave for 12 hours a day to support their families, go to the countries torn apart by civil war and cry out: 'YOU WOULDN'T BE IN THIS MESS IF YOU WEREN'T SO DAMN LAZY!!!'

Maybe then you'll learn something.
You don't know me well enough to assume that I haven't done any of those things. I've worked on Habitat houses, served up food in Hosea Williams Thanksgiving Day dinners, and seen quite a bit of the world. Not the nice world like England, the poor world like Africa, India, and South America.

I'm not going to make excuses for the kind of poverty that is born out of ignorance and missed opportunities.

avoid having parents who are drug users, alcoholics, abusive either physcially or sexually; parents who die while you're still young, leaving you to care for siblings; avoid growing up in a poor neighbourhood or reservation where random violence is rife, and loud parties keep you up all night; avoid living in a community where suicide is a weekly occurance, and drugs are easier to get than groceries; avoid working too much, even if it means the difference between eating raw oatmeal to feel 'full' and actually having enough to eat, because then you're too damn tired to study, or you can't help falling asleep in class because you crack the books until the wee hours; avoid going to a school that can't keep teachers for more than a month at a time, a school with no supplies and no one to actually teach the courses...avoid it because you'll still have to go AND teach yourself in the few hours you actually have between school and work.

Yeah. That's pretty damn simple.
I really like reading the things you write. I think you are a smart lady and I'm honored to have you take issue with me. That being said, your reply is still trite.

None of those reasons are enough to keep someone from achieving more than a monthly check from the government dole. The condition is that they must want to do better. This isn't psychotherapy, so I don't feel obligated to go into my personal life, but just know that I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth. Didn't you overcome a disadvantaged childhood, too? Your husband, or his parents, was so motivated to succeed that he left his home to find a place where he could do better.

So if we can succeed and avoid becoming government dependents, why should we be satisfied that there are poor people that just can't do any better? Maybe there are, but I'll be that's the 1 in 100 case. There's no sin in helping them, but there sure is in encouraging the other 99 that they can't do any better.

So if we can succeed and avoid becoming government dependents, why should we be satisfied that there are poor people that just can't do any better?
Because the entire whole lot of us, no matter what they say, did not have to grow up between warring gangs, drive-by shootings and crack houses. That's more than 1 in 100.
The US is breeding its own underclass there, and that surely is against the whole spirit in which the country was started in the first place, no?

The fact that it is possible to succeed when starting out poor does not change the fact that it is far far easier to succeed when starting out rich (Except in the minority of cases, like Sierra, who don't get help from parents). Where is the justice in a system where how easy it is to succeed in life depends as much on your parents bank balance as it does on your ability and willingness to work hard?

The fact that it is possible to succeed when starting out poor does not change the fact that it is far far easier to succeed when starting out rich (Except in the minority of cases, like Sierra, who don't get help from parents). Where is the justice in a system where how easy it is to succeed in life depends as much on your parents bank balance as it does on your ability and willingness to work hard?
Life isn't fair and it can never be made so. That doesn't mean that we need to accept our 'station' in life as a government dependent. We can certainly become self-sufficient, if not wealthy, with solid determination to do so.

Life isn't fair and it can never be made so. That doesn't mean that we need to accept our 'station' in life as a government dependent. We can certainly become self-sufficient, if not wealthy, with solid determination to do so.

Indeed - but it can be made more fair if there is decent state education and healthcare for all, allowing people to have a good chance of succeeding in life. I'm not actually for allowing able bodied people to get enough money for anything more than absolute bare minimum basics if they are unemployed for long periods of time, welfare is supposed to be a safety net for in between jobs and for people who physically cannot work. However, I do believe that no one should have to deal with a shitty education and have to support parents if they get ill or cannot succeed because they themselves get ill just because they happened to come from an underprivilaged background.

*Seizes 75% for redistribution programs*
*Redistributes to Wingarde and anyone else who will lend me support for favors*

Now, then, I very much like how everyone keeps bringing up the same tear jerker made for TV movie plot (oh me oh my, my family all just caught cancer and the dog exploded, now I must dwell in poverty) that will happen to such a negligible amount of the U.S. population as to make notation a worthless point.
Hows about not being the family martyr, then? Families are nice, but you aren't doing them any favors by sacrificing yourself in a grand gesture.
By watching your own back, you can keep others from having to watch it.

Heh, so you're saying it's my own fault? Fuck that.

If you were in the same room, you'd be badly, horribly beaten right now. Theeeere goes my blood pressure. That's the stuff...

It occurred to me that it's pretty darn simple not to be poor. I was listening to a radio program where the merits of the Fair Tax were being discussed and of course the return of capital to the U.S. was mention. That's when I started thinking about how easy it is not to become poor and dependent on the government.

First, we are handed a piss-poor public education, but it's free. If you apply yourself, you can make great grades, get scholarships and get more education. So the first rule to follow in how to not be poor is to stay in school and get as much free education as you can.

Second, don't get pregnant or father any children out of wedlock. That's more than just a moral statement. You can't take advantage of educational and occupational opportunities when you are seventeen or eighteen and have a couple illegitimate kids. Wait until you are married and have the means to support kids before you have any.

Third, get a job. Get any job. Work at it until you get enough experience or connections to get a better job. No one hands out $50,000 dollar a year jobs to someone without any work experience. Not unless you have taken advantage of an awful lot of free education.

Last, don't acquire a criminal record. That's another sure way down the tubes.

Pretty simple, huh?

didn't read the whole thred but I would add to learn some good money management tips, because chances are if you grew up poor you learned some pretty poor ways to deal with money too. (I know I did, I had to relearn everything)

Is it just me, or has no one actually tried to make the case in this thread that there is NO way NOT to be poor? You know, cuz the evil capitalist system depends on there being poor people for the fatcat capitalist overlords to leech off of?

Hmm, well there, I just made it. Saved you commies the trouble of trying to sound erudite - I tell it like it is! Or in this case, in the simplistic manner some think it is.

Is it just me, or has no one actually tried to make the case in this thread that there is NO way NOT to be poor? You know, cuz the evil capitalist system depends on there being poor people for the fatcat capitalist overlords to leech off of?

Hmm, well there, I just made it. Saved you commies the trouble of trying to sound erudite - I tell it like it is! Or in this case, in the simplistic manner some think it is.
I think the communists have finally realized it's a pipe dream. There's no such thing as communism and it is perpetually doomed to fail. When your big selling point is that 'we can ration the scarcity we create', you know nothing too good is going to happen.

Heh, so you're saying it's my own fault? Fuck that.
You chose a course of action, you live with it. I see no reason why your "good deeds" should be subsidized by the rest of us sociopaths. What his face cut off his parent's for being Assholes, and I say that demanding someone give up their life for you is pretty damn assholish.
If you were in the same room, you'd be badly, horribly beaten right now. Theeeere goes my blood pressure. That's the stuff...
Na-uh, cause I'd turn into a werewolf, and then I'd pull out my +100 sword of Interweb Tough Guy Slaying and I'd also move fast like Superman because I am part alien, and I have, like, 5 bajikillizillion million more power levels then you.
And then I'd ride away on my Magical Unicorn back to the sweet never-never land of the Interweb.

To give Potaria some credit, he may be poor now, but he is going to college to get some sort of engineering degree (I don't remember what degree exactly). He does have ambition, he does have plans, he does not intend to be poor all his life - but he is poor now, because of his father's illness.

Why don't you stop needling a guy who's had to deal with a lot of hard knocks, and give him some encouragement instead? Sounds like he's on the right road to me.

To give Potaria some credit, he may be poor now, but he is going to college to get some sort of engineering degree (I don't remember what degree exactly). He does have ambition, he does have plans, he does not intend to be poor all his life - but he is poor now, because of his father's illness.

Why don't you stop needling a guy who's had to deal with a lot of hard knocks, and give him some encouragement instead? Sounds like he's on the right road to me.
1) I wasn't needling, the guy started talking about beating me up, so I think it is fine to retaliate with a single post
2) If he is putting forth effort to improve himself, then he is defying the cliche that everyone is relying on (that it isn't his fault that he'd rather live in poverty then move on, because his father got sick) If he is willing to fight to get out, then the statement hardly applies
3) I hold by the fact that it isn't my job to subsidize the good deeds of others. I quit donating money to the church years ago, why should some one force me to deal with charity cases for "good causes."

You don't know me well enough to assume that I haven't done any of those things. I've worked on Habitat houses, served up food in Hosea Williams Thanksgiving Day dinners, and seen quite a bit of the world. Not the nice world like England, the poor world like Africa, India, and South America.

I'm not going to make excuses for the kind of poverty that is born out of ignorance and missed opportunities.

What income bracket do you come from? Judging by your naive tone I'd say you aren't ruthless enough to have come from a very poor family. If you had really grown up in poverty you'd understand that helping others is a luxury. You wouldn't be volunteering for habitat and in food kitchens, which are reserved mostly for college and high school students seeking to bolster their extracurrics.

Being raised in a good house with a good family income makes a hell of a difference. The amount of money spent by your parents on you over the years is something that poor kids don't have.

You're missing a big chunk of the equation.

The equation being

do while income > outgo;
live;
end while;

You forgot something.

"Don't sit around wasting time blaming your plight on <slavery, the Man, racism, capitalism, evil corporations, the President, religion, the war, your parents>. Get off your ass and do something."

Very well put. These reasons above are a downfall for many.

I was once told that the way to be rich was not to adust your income to your expectations, but rather adjust your expections to your income.

That said, it sounds like left wing crap to me.

if you didn't grow up poor you have absolutely no clue what it's like. You can try to guess but theres a big difference between living it and reading about it or even witnessing it first hand from helping the poor.

To grow up being taught about the world from poor people, you learn how to live as a poor person and have to overcome many mental obstacles to see a different way to live. It's a cycle that keeps getitng passed on. People need o be educated on how to live life. You don't just automatically go "this way of living is wrong" and all fo a sudden know the correct course in life to take. Sure people will sometimes self-destruct and do the thing they know is wrong and avoid the thing they know is right but thats where other mental issues come into play.

Depression may seem to some of you who have never really had it as somethign that anyone should easily be able to shrug off, and I can understand that it isn't an easy thing to know about if you haven't experienced it, but just depression alone can kick your ass and keep you from finding any kind of success (especially when you could care less because you feel like life sucks). I speak from experience here. My struggle with depression led me to dangerous behavior, addiction, nearly-attempted suicide *not the cry for help kind either*, and criminal behavior. it's also not cheap to get psychiactric help for these things.

Cancer isn't the only sickness out there nor is it the only sickness that can cause big hospital bills. Something like a broken arm can set a poor family back more than you seem to be able to imagine.

shit I gotta go - you anti-poor asswipes really piss those of us that had to grow up in that world off big time. You don't know shit. Im glad you know about how to succeed in life and do proper money management, but just a few simple suggestions that look like you are saying poor people are lazy and only need to try to make money to get ahead in life shows that you really ahve a lot to learn.

To give Potaria some credit, he may be poor now, but he is going to college to get some sort of engineering degree (I don't remember what degree exactly). He does have ambition, he does have plans, he does not intend to be poor all his life - but he is poor now, because of his father's illness.

Why don't you stop needling a guy who's had to deal with a lot of hard knocks, and give him some encouragement instead? Sounds like he's on the right road to me.

Thanks. Don't worry about these dicks; I've had worse. One thing's for sure, though... They definitely wouldn't wanna meet me in person.

Oh, and the engineering thing? It has to do with marine robotics. It's just one of the routes I could take... There's also top universities on either financial aid or scholarships (I have the grades to get into any university in the country, really). I'm just not too sure about which way to go right now.

Thanks. Don't worry about these dicks; I've had worse. One thing's for sure, though... They definitely wouldn't wanna meet me in person.

Oh, well hard. You are going to kick people in on an internet forum. I'm scared.

if you didn't grow up poor you have absolutely no clue what it's like. You can try to guess but theres a big difference between living it and reading about it or even witnessing it first hand from helping the poor.

To grow up being taught about the world from poor people, you learn how to live as a poor person and have to overcome many mental obstacles to see a different way to live. It's a cycle that keeps getitng passed on. People need o be educated on how to live life. You don't just automatically go "this way of living is wrong" and all fo a sudden know the correct course in life to take. Sure people will sometimes self-destruct and do the thing they know is wrong and avoid the thing they know is right but thats where other mental issues come into play.

Depression may seem to some of you who have never really had it as somethign that anyone should easily be able to shrug off, and I can understand that it isn't an easy thing to know about if you haven't experienced it, but just depression alone can kick your ass and keep you from finding any kind of success (especially when you could care less because you feel like life sucks). I speak from experience here. My struggle with depression led me to dangerous behavior, addiction, nearly-attempted suicide *not the cry for help kind either*, and criminal behavior. it's also not cheap to get psychiactric help for these things.

Cancer isn't the only sickness out there nor is it the only sickness that can cause big hospital bills. Something like a broken arm can set a poor family back more than you seem to be able to imagine.

shit I gotta go - you anti-poor asswipes really piss those of us that had to grow up in that world off big time. You don't know shit. Im glad you know about how to succeed in life and do proper money management, but just a few simple suggestions that look like you are saying poor people are lazy and only need to try to make money to get ahead in life shows that you really ahve a lot to learn.

*gives a roaring cheer*

I think in a way, the argument is right. No poor person is so completely without his/her own fault. However, fault in this case can mean a simple mistake, a decision to place other things before the personal interest, or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Blaming people for being poor is like blaming people for car accidents : Yes, there are always some who are guilty. And there are others who just made the mistake of driving. Or cycling. Or even just of leaving their house to walk to work. If thay hadn't been in that place at that time, the car would never have hit them... so it has to be their own fault, right? And we shouldn't be obliged in any way to help people who caused all their trouble themselves, should we?
So we shouldn't help the poor who, after all, caused their own misery and are now struggling to get out of it?

There is a girl in my school who is in a few of my classes, and serves as a teacher's assistant for my history class. Both of her parents are dead, as are most of the members of her family. She has to support herself, while remaining a full-time student. She also may or may not have to take care of her younger brother; I haven't spoken with her much, so I'm not completely aware of the situation. After she graduates, I don't know what she'll do. She is very hardworking, but she is not the most advanced students in school- she's shares my Algebra 2 class, where most seniors would be taking Pre-Calculus. Of course, I don't know how much tragedy has disrupted her schedule. In addition, my grades are superior to hers, even though I'm rather lazy; I realy upon my native intelligence and near-infinite free time to carry me through classes. She is intelligent as well; I think she simply has too much work to do to excel at school, which is a prerequisite for universities of late.

I don't know what she's going to do after she graduates. With no additional knowledge, I would hazard to guess that she's going to work full-time for a year or more, raising money for college and possibly taking care of her brother. Of course, that year tends to slip into two... to five... to ten... and so on, as emergencies pop up that disrupt the smooth flow of funds into a future college fund. There is a very strong possibility that she will never get any college education. And by your logic, all of this is her fault because she's "lazy." Wonderful.

Maybe I'm wrong; maybe her hard work will pay off and she'll get a scholarship. I hope so. However, even assuming she gets into college, she may not have the money to attend full time. Attending college part-time is difficult, and greatly increases the dropout rate, as making ends meet while paying for, attending, and doing homework for classes is simply an enormous task for a person just getting by. Should she then go back to the position of 'lower middle-class' or 'upper lower class', it is her fault (by your logic) because she is "lazy." Wonderful.

Further: It's not enough to merely sneer at the poor and say, "You should have worked harder." Inevitably, someone will wind up on the bottom rung (http://crap.jinwicked.com/?comic=147). Are they to be reviled, because obviously they're the lazy ones, rather than the luckless ones? Or shall we treat them as citizens who, through fault or no fault of their own, have found themselves at the bottom.

Note on slavery: When slavery was abolished in 1865, President Lincoln advocated giving former slaves "seven acres and a mule." Booth's bullet put an end to that plan. Therefore, millions of ex-slaves populated the country, free to do as they wished with their lives. The problem? By far the vast majority of them were illiterate and unskilled at anything except field work. So, into field work they went, working for their former masters for a mere pittance. Their children could theoretically have been sent on to better things, except that they were black- very few schools were around that would accept them. Besides, their parents needed all the help they could get to keep food on the table.

So what we have is a huge section of the Southern population that was essentially stuck in a loop, each generation forced to raise the next to be as ignorant as their predecessors. Many steps have been taken since then to break the loop; schools for blacks sprang up, then public schools, then blacks were allowed into the superior white public schools, and things have been getting better since. However, the great loop still continues in altered form in the ghettoes- a person in the inner city without a gang to back them up is defenseless, so to get defense, they join a gang and perpetuate the violence that makes joining a gang necessary; inner city schools are so stricken by the squalor and violence nearby, that the students find that they don't have the quality of education to go to college, even if they graduate- and of course, even if they were accepted, they can't afford to go to college. So, these young adults are forced to take jobs that only non-college graduates can attain, which earn so little money that they can't afford to send their children to college down the line. The cycle continues.

And of course, it's all their fault because they're "lazy."

The best advice if you want to be rich is to disregard all ethics and take advantage of any opportunity that presents itself without regard for others. If you can take advantage of the failures of others, you are guaranteed success. To hold it is a different matter. You need to have a sense of self-preservation that protects you from others capitalising on your failures. It is preferable to work within the system and borders of legality, but others have ignored them successfully in the past.


Of course, the downside of following this moral system is that you have to deal with the fact that you're an arsehole and cry yourself to sleep at night. I'd rather not.

It occurred to me that it's pretty darn simple not to be poor. I was listening to a radio program where the merits of the Fair Tax were being discussed and of course the return of capital to the U.S. was mention. That's when I started thinking about how easy it is not to become poor and dependent on the government.

First, we are handed a piss-poor public education, but it's free. If you apply yourself, you can make great grades, get scholarships and get more education. So the first rule to follow in how to not be poor is to stay in school and get as much free education as you can.

Second, don't get pregnant or father any children out of wedlock. That's more than just a moral statement. You can't take advantage of educational and occupational opportunities when you are seventeen or eighteen and have a couple illegitimate kids. Wait until you are married and have the means to support kids before you have any.

Third, get a job. Get any job. Work at it until you get enough experience or connections to get a better job. No one hands out $50,000 dollar a year jobs to someone without any work experience. Not unless you have taken advantage of an awful lot of free education.

Last, don't acquire a criminal record. That's another sure way down the tubes.

Pretty simple, huh?
Oh yes, of course my family didn't have any of this happen, instead my father, a Vietnam vet BTW, died of leukemia leaving my mother with two very young children. Funny, but there just ain't that many good jobs that pay well for a young woman (mid 20s) with a high school degree. Even with the best job she could get and trying to come home in the evenings to raise her kids, we were still on goverment hand outs for a very, very long time (when McDonalds becomes a luxary, you know you've hit rock bottom). Once we were about a week from losing the house before a minor mircle occured.

My mother worked hard every single day and yet it wasn't till she remaired 17 years later did everything finally stablize a wee bit, enough to afford a newer and larger house, but not enough to help send her children to college (yea for student loans!).

There are other ways to get poor ya great bloody fool, and not ALL poor are hanging around bemoaning lost oppertunities. And guess what, it doesn't automatically follow that it's easy to work your way our of being poor either.

Some poor are there by their own actions, but many are there for events out of their control. Remember THAT.

Edit: Oh, and Sierra BHT, my father was 31 when he died, that young enough for you?

What income bracket do you come from? Judging by your naive tone I'd say you aren't ruthless enough to have come from a very poor family. If you had really grown up in poverty you'd understand that helping others is a luxury. You wouldn't be volunteering for habitat and in food kitchens, which are reserved mostly for college and high school students seeking to bolster their extracurrics.

Being raised in a good house with a good family income makes a hell of a difference. The amount of money spent by your parents on you over the years is something that poor kids don't have.

You're missing a big chunk of the equation.
You've missed the point of charity. It's not done because you can get some credit for it.

Oh yes, of course my family didn't have any of this happen, instead my father, a Vietnam vet BTW, died of leukemia leaving my mother with two very young children. Funny, but there just ain't that many good jobs that pay well for a young woman (mid 20s) with a high school degree. Even with the best job she could get and trying to come home in the evenings to raise her kids, we were still on goverment hand outs for a very, very long time (when McDonalds becomes a luxary, you know you've hit rock bottom). Once we were about a week from losing the house before a minor mircle occured.

My mother worked hard every single day and yet it wasn't till she remaired 17 years later did everything finally stablize a wee bit, enough to afford a newer and larger house, but not enough to help send her children to college (yea for student loans!).

There are other ways to get poor ya great bloody fool, and not ALL poor are hanging around bemoaning lost oppertunities. And guess what, it doesn't automatically follow that it's easy to work your way our of being poor either.

Some poor are there by their own actions, but many are there for events out of their control. Remember THAT.

Again, this is just a trivial answer because it's not what happens to most people. I think you understand generalizations, right? Besides, you overcame a disadvantaged childhood, why are others less likely to do the same?

And why should your mother have to send anyone to college? I sure didn't get that assistance from my family. I worked at least 1 and a half jobs all through college to pay my bills. Never took out a loan and never got any grant money because my parents wouldn't complete their sections of the forms.

And of course, it's all their fault because they're "lazy."
precisely. many of 'the poor' are amongst the most hardworking people you could hope to meet, and yet they are kept in their place (to use an unpleasant term) by the rich and the systems they have built over time to stay rich.

there are some people who are poor and lazy - the dole spungers who choose not to work, but they are not the majority by a long way. the majoirty of the poor work their asses off just to 'stay afloat' (as my mum always used to put it), stay alive, and stay poor.


The best advice if you want to be rich is to disregard all ethics and take advantage of any opportunity that presents itself without regard for others. If you can take advantage of the failures of others, you are guaranteed success. To hold it is a different matter. You need to have a sense of self-preservation that protects you from others capitalising on your failures. It is preferable to work within the system and borders of legality, but others have ignored them successfully in the past.


Of course, the downside of following this moral system is that you have to deal with the fact that you're an arsehole and cry yourself to sleep at night. I'd rather not.
well said, that man. unfortunatley i have personal experience of the rich doing just that - doing everything they can to fuck over the poor (or even each other) to keep their position and fuel their massive greed....

1) Accept that to reach anything you've got to do it yourself. Even if you get a helping hand, that helping hand isn't going to do anything if you are not willing to help yourself and just sit back waiting for more.
2) Ignore the social group(s) you live in. This is one of the thougher things to do seeing that people are social and need groups. If you get out of poverty you'll break with them (eventually) anyway and while you are in poverty, at their level, they'll try to hold you back and keep you at their level.
3) Don't believe the politicians who say their latest scheme will eliminate/relieve poverty. They say that to buy your vote. If government interference would eliminate poverty then why is there still poverty after 60-100 years of poverty elimination programs. You need to help yourself, not sit around and wait for a miracle to happen.
4) Build up your own support structure of trusted family and friends. They are usually cheaper on your living expenses then anything else out there. They can work as a surrogate social group (see point 2) and help with some obligations you cannot avoid, for example a single teen mother who can place the kid with someone she trusts while going to school/work has an advantage over the ones who can't.
5) Eat healthy. Might sound stupid but unhealthy eating not only makes you more prone to illness, it also causes a host of little other problems that make it harder to get out of poverty. Healthy food is less expensive then most people think, though at the lowest prices there is little variation in what is available.
6a) Don't get a credit card, if you have to get some form of card get a debit card at the lowest limit the issuer will allow. Debt is the worst thing you can get if you do not have a prospect to be able to pay it off.
6b) Don't buy things on credit or any other buy now pay later scheme. If you can't afford it now what makes you think you can afford the cost + interest or when later comes around.
6c) There are exceptions: costs made for educating yourself and items you need for work.
7) Do not seek escape. It won't work, eventually you'll get back out of that drug/liquor/whatever induced escape and this time reality is not only smirking at you but hitting you with a baseballbat as well.
8) Do not give up. Keep trying. Hope might be fragile but at sometimes it is the only thing you might have, lose it and you'll never get out.
9) If you have kids try to get them to understand these points. Also if they are pre-school age and you have the time try to teach them basic reading/writing and math. This should give them an advantage in school.

10) If (yes that is an if, it's not guaranteed) you get out of poverty go back into that area and try to get the kids there to understand what made it possible for you to get out of poverty. A rolemodel helps. It's generally harder to explain it to adults, they tend to get jealous that you got out and they didn't (that is the ones who couldn't bother to help themselves).

added the word years to point 3

3) Don't believe the politicians who say their latest scheme will eliminate/relieve poverty. They say that to buy your vote. If government interference would eliminate poverty then why is there still poverty after 60-100 of poverty elimination programs.
I have to agree with this post. Politicians aren't concerned with ending poverty, otherwise they would. They just want your vote.

I have to agree with this post. Politicians aren't concerned with ending poverty, otherwise they would. They just want your vote.

Of course. What benefit would ending poverty have towards them? They lose a scapegoat if they are successful.

The liberal-democratic political system breeds people who know how to manipulate and destroy their opposition; and thus know how to manipulate and destroy the aspirations and dreams of certain sectors of the public to their own advantage. Such is politics.

if you didn't grow up poor you have absolutely no clue what it's like. You can try to guess but theres a big difference between living it and reading about it or even witnessing it first hand from helping the poor.

That's pretty well rehearsed there, pal. How many revs did it take for that essay?

The way you avoid the argument and attack the arguer is very innovative, as well. Kudos to you for that creation.

Are you trying to say that there is no merit to the four rules that I posted? That doing those four things are insufficient to pull one out of poverty? From the chip on your shoulder, it appears that you managed to drag yourself into the world of the successful, why should you deny others that same fate?

Again, this is just a trivial answer because it's not what happens to most people. I think you understand generalizations, right? Besides, you overcame a disadvantaged childhood, why are others less likely to do the same?
Generalzations fail. That was MY point. I see this an awful lot.

Speaker A "The (whatever mass of people we're blaiming for their own condition this week) are obviously not working hard enough. If they just REALLY tried, they could be rich too. So, therefore, it's all their fault. Obviously they (Do drugs, have sex, what have ya).

Speaker B: But what about Mr. and Mrs. Jones, you know, working two jobs doing the best they can to get ahead and they would have made it if he had gotten hurt at his last job and is now disabled.

Speaker A: OH, er, I mean the OTHER (whatever mass of people we're blaiming for their own condition this week), THEY'RE the ones (doing drugs, having sex, etc.) Mr. and Mrs. Jones are good people of course.

The faceless mass is so easy to blaime so YOU don't have to feel anything. Much harder when you put a face to it. Does that mean that there aren't jerks and assholes who are using and abusing the system, of course not. But my point is that I read your posting about single mothers and how if they just worked harder and think of my own life and watch your argument tumble like dominos.

These are real people, they have their own stories. And guess what, they're just as important and deserving as you.

You want generalzations, look at a zoo.

And why should your mother have to send anyone to college? I sure didn't get that assistance from my family. I worked at least 1 and a half jobs all through college to pay my bills. Never took out a loan and never got any grant money because my parents wouldn't complete their sections of the forms.
My point being that even when my parents had stablized their fiscal situation, they were unable to provide me with any sort of support (beyond some food every now and then). Your post made it seem so easy to go and pay for college. I took out loans to make ends meet because even working over 40 hrs and carriring the max load of credits, I still could not afford school without those damn loans.

I think the communists have finally realized it's a pipe dream. There's no such thing as communism and it is perpetually doomed to fail. When your big selling point is that 'we can ration the scarcity we create', you know nothing too good is going to happen.I think you're living in a dream world if you think communists have done any such thing. I don't know how you could get close to 3,000 posts without noticing how many real live communists there are on this forum.

I was once told that the way to be rich was not to adust your income to your expectations, but rather adjust your expections to your income.

That said, it sounds like left wing crap to me.
It's good advice if you're planning on winning the lottery.

I think you're living in a dream world if you think communists have done any such thing. I don't know how you could get close to 3,000 posts without noticing how many real live communists there are on this forum.

You're living in a dream world if you think that the few real live communists that are left in the world have any chance at all to bring communism to fruition.

its far easier to avoid falling into poverty than it is to dig yourself out of the hole you are born into.

if you have a solidly middle class family, even a lower middle class family; 2 parents; an opportunity to see a good work ethic even if it doesnt make the family rich; parents who are sane, non-addicted, employed; if you are encouraged to do well in school and have teachers who dont assume you are stupid; if your parents have time to keep an eye on you so you dont wander off into big trouble; if your family doesnt fall on severe hard times that require you to put your own dreams on hold; if you are taught (and see examples around you) that if you work hard you can do well; ITS EASY.

if youre born poor, single parent or parents with addiction or mental health problems. if you are surrounded by people who tell you that education is for fools. if everything that we take for granted is hard for you (look back at sinhue's post, thats reality for many people) how are you going to get out of poverty? the formula is simple; the execution is hard.


look at Pennterra's post. all that has to happen to that girl is ONE common mistake. she goes to a teen party for once, she drinks too much and ends up having unprotected sex. a baby would put her on welfare for the next 5 years. or she gets overwhelmed by her responsibilities and tries to cope with a little meth. quick road to addiction. alll she has to do is relax her vigilance ONCE, take the easy way out for ONE DAY and she can lose everything. she had no safety net. no parents to look out for her.

sure you can say "its all her fault" but who among us hasnt made a bad choice? when WE make a bad choice we have backup to help us out of it. some people dont. thats why its hard to escape poverty.