NationStates Jolt Archive


So I went to a seminar...

Dobbsworld
18-10-2005, 04:42
This would be the "magnetic therapy" seminar I talked about late on Saturday night past, (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=449820)where I hoped to dissuade my friend from getting involved with outright quackery. I think I didn't fail in that regard so much as give up on her halfway through this dog-and-pony show.

First off, it wasn't a seminar so much as it was a presentation - held in the sumptious rumpus room of a very upscale family in a very upscale neck of the woods. It was a small affair - apart from my friend and I there were no more than eight or nine others there, along with the small gaggle of presenters. A folding table heaped with products (the name of this outfit is 'Nikken', I found out - haven't delved deeper online yet, but will now - well, sometime this week, anyway... when I get around to it. If I've got time. You're probably guessing I didn't swallow the bait. Well, you're right, I didn't.)loomed at one end of the room. All manner of - well - useless crap designed, manufactured and marketed for discerning, wealthy hypochondriacs as well as genuinely desperate people. Rounding it all out was the dual function of the presentation, the appeal to join this organization and sell expensive useless crap to others. Roughly half the attendees were there to buy in, and did so even after the presentation.

I squawked when the chief presenter started telling us how their water purifier made the molecules of water 'stop clumping together' and reduced the size of the molecules as well, therefore making it somehow more readily absorbable by the body. "There's three atoms in a molecule of water," I said. "Two oxygen and one hydrogen. Molecules of water are all the same size, and they don't 'clump'." I was quickly told, flat-out, that they do clump - and they also reiterated the 'size' mantra, embellishing their claim by maintaining that the atoms re-align the water molecules on an atomic level to deliver 'full nutritive wellness' to your 'atomic self'.

I couldn't stop myself from laughing. The snake-oil pitch went on another hour and a half, with fewer and fewer interjections from this quarter. It was unmitigated quackery of the worst sort, and I was flummoxed - I knew this woman, this friend of mine reasonably well, I thought - some peculiar ideas, not always in accord with my own offbeat ways, but so much the better, I've always thought - and yet, here these people were, spewing pseudo-science, pseudo-preventitive and palliative medecine, with a hard-sell franchising scheme underscoring the whole deal - and there was my friend, lapping it up and helping the bastards out by chiming in on the effectiveness of their products.

Me: Wow, you seem really manic these days. What's up?
Friend: I haven't been sleeping for a couple of months.
Me: Holy shit! That's seriously not good.
Friend: Well, I mean I've been getting maybe two hours or so of sleep per night.
Me: That doesn't sound good at all. What're you doing about it?
Friend: Nothing seems to work.
Me: Wow. (offers numerous suggestions, lastly, having a toke in the late evening)
Friend: Mah, that'll never work, and anyway I don't want an addiction.
Me: Okay whatever. Try some of this weed, though. (and I let her smoke - like, three puffs - out of my old trusty pipe. And this was getting on into the late evening, btw)

Net result: she laughed her ass off to the point of spasming her diaphragm somewhat (this was not a bad thing) ,ate some food (something she's not been doing enough of lately, as well), and went home and slept like a rock for seven-odd hours. Contrast this experience on Friday (which she later thanked me for) with this statement on Sunday afternoon:

Presenter: ...and the magnetic neckbrace is good for purifying your neck and the base of your skull, but for those suffering from sleep disorders we usually recommend the magnetic pillow (which also contains scraps of ceramic tiles to reflect infra-red energies back towards your head, btw), the magnetic duvet or the magnetic mattress.
Friend: I haven't been getting more than two hours sleep a night, but I have been since I bought the magnetic pillow.
Me: What?

It was at this point I basically gave up on her, though I did point out that the 'strength tests' they'd conduct were pure hucksterism. I kept my eye on how the presenter was distributing their weight and how they were amending their stance while they'd test for 'pure' or 'impure' energy, and if you knew what to look for, it was terribly sham-o-riffic.

I wanted to be able to report that I'd successfully steered my friend clear of a crummy scheme... but I've more-or-less decided to let her sink or swim on her own where this nonsense is concerned. I feel a little guilty about it, though - I'm planning on getting together with her soon and I'll be as frank as I can without hurting her feelings.

Is it better to dissuade someone from making an obvious blunder, or to let them make that mistake so they'll hopefully gain from the experience? This is the question I'm now wrestling with. Would you have it out, and give air to grave misgivings, or keep your own counsel while a friend crashes and burns?
Smunkeeville
18-10-2005, 04:44
I wanted to be able to report that I'd successfully steered my friend clear of a crummy scheme... but I've more-or-less decided to let her sink or swim on her own where this nonsense is concerned. I feel a little guilty about it, though - I'm planning on getting together with her soon and I'll be as frank as I can without hurting her feelings.

Is it better to dissuade someone from making an obvious blunder, or to let them make that mistake so they'll hopefully gain from the experience? This is the question I'm now wrestling with. Would you have it out, and give air to grave misgivings, or keep your own counsel while a friend crashes and burns?
in this case I would try everything I could to disuade your friend. these things never work out well, and you would be a bad friend if you didn't at least make your concerns known.
Hiberniae
18-10-2005, 04:48
Well if their only going to lose a few bucks, best to let them crash and burn. If it's something quite serious...like your friends sleep disorder you might want to intervene.
Undelia
18-10-2005, 04:49
Is it better to dissuade someone from making an obvious blunder, or to let them make that mistake so they'll hopefully gain from the experience? This is the question I'm now wrestling with. Would you have it out, and give air to grave misgivings, or keep your own counsel while a friend crashes and burns?
My grandmother and her sisters are into this shit. The woman has fucking skin cancer but the quakes told her that cancer was a fungus and sold her some cream to rub on it. I tried to convince her otherwise, but I got tired of dealing with it. If she wants to die, she can go ahead. I figure I’ve done all I can.
H N Fiddlebottoms VIII
18-10-2005, 04:51
I'd say that you have done all you can. Make one last attempt to warn her that this whole thing is a congame, and then you have to let her go.
Now that was my nice and sensitive answer, what I would do is let her go (maybe even guide her into it) and waste all of her money and resources. When its all over I get a front row view of a possible mental collapse (no sleep + no food + no cash + no common sense = no sanity after awhile) and can laugh my ass off through the whole process. However, that is the horrible human being talking, and you probably wouldn't enjoy it as I would.
So I stick by my "you just have to let go sometimes" judgement (Unless, of course, you could genuinely prove that these people are lying. Then there are a few laws that they are violating, and you might be able to play the hero and get a made for TV movie out of the whole thing).
Lacadaemon
18-10-2005, 04:54
Is it better to dissuade someone from making an obvious blunder, or to let them make that mistake so they'll hopefully gain from the experience? This is the question I'm now wrestling with. Would you have it out, and give air to grave misgivings, or keep your own counsel while a friend crashes and burns?

I would say it depends on the person. Some people prefer to crash and burn, others get angry that you didn't save them from themselves and some are pissy either way.

Though these people sound like the type of hucksters that take people for thousands of dollars. If it was me, I'd feel I would have to point out how stupid the whole thing was, especially the water molecule clumping. (Funnily enough there is a similar claim for a magnetic device that does the same thing for gasoline in cars and will result in a bazillion percent increase in power and fuel effiency that has been thoroughly debunked. I wonder if that is where they stole the craxy idea?).

At the end of the day however, she's an adult. If she is not going to listen to common sense, then it is not worth making a federal case out of.
Rotovia-
18-10-2005, 04:57
I've been to a few similar things myself. I strongly suggest you seek a qualified excorcist. Because nothing on Earth can disuade a pseudo-scientific network marketing/MLM/pyramid scheme.
Heron-Marked Warriors
18-10-2005, 05:07
I say you go all out to make her see sense. You cannot let your friends walk into this shit if you can help it.
The South Islands
18-10-2005, 05:22
IMHO, you tell it to her straight.

You have an obligation, as a friend, to try to influence her decisions for the best result. Even if she doesn't think it.
Lord-General Drache
18-10-2005, 07:46
I'm into some quirky stuff...but that's bloody stupid. Tell her precisely what you think, and if that doesn't work, let her do what she wants. Then say "I told you so."
Pure Metal
18-10-2005, 12:33
"There's three atoms in a molecule of water," I said. "Two oxygen and one hydrogen.
H2 and one O, but i'm sure thats just a typing error ;)


firstly, what a laughable crock of shit.
secondly, i usually go by the idea that its none of my business what my friends do in situations like this... but then that's lead me to kinda alienate myself from them since i (whenever it was) started thinking like that, so i'm starting to think the opposite. i suppose it can't hurt just to tell her flat out that 'you think she's making a mistake' going for this crap (nothing more, nothing less in terms of trying to dissuade her), and add that you wouldn't buy into it and say why. if she doesn't listen to you then fair enough - on her own head be it, and you did try. but there's not much more you could/should do than that imo
Ashmoria
18-10-2005, 14:50
if shes not an heiress, let her do what she wants and consider consoling her later when she realizes shes fallen in with quacks.

if she is in danger of losing the kind of money that would support her the rest of her life, consider talking to her family. maybe they can protect the money somehow.

people do all kinds of stupid things. dont hold it against her that she wants to believe.
Ashmoria
18-10-2005, 14:55
My grandmother and her sisters are into this shit. The woman has fucking skin cancer but the quakes told her that cancer was a fungus and sold her some cream to rub on it. I tried to convince her otherwise, but I got tired of dealing with it. If she wants to die, she can go ahead. I figure I’ve done all I can.

if your grandmother still goes to any real doctors, talk to your parents about them informing that doctor of what she is doing. s/he may be able to get through to her where you and your family cant

call the attorney general of texas and see if they wont look into these quacks. maybe they can at least stop other people from being killed by them.

it IS a crime for them to take advantage of your grandmother this way.
Drunk commies deleted
18-10-2005, 15:10
I'm a confrontational and argumentative SOB when it comes to pseudoscience, so I'd make sure my friend knows that the quack medicine she's buying into is just a scam meant to profit on her ignorance of science.
Gymoor II The Return
18-10-2005, 15:20
It's the Theory of Intelligent Magnetism.
Laerod
18-10-2005, 15:34
Well, never underestimate the placebo effect. (And never underestimate the effect it has when the taker finds out).

Did you ask them whether there was anything else besides water molecules in the water? Would have been interesting to hear they were selling distilled water.
Dobbsworld
19-10-2005, 00:49
H2 and one O, but i'm sure thats just a typing error ;)


Whoops, quite right, PM. Quite right. Well, that's what I get for waiting 'til the end of the day to write it all up - my apologies for the typo.
Dobbsworld
19-10-2005, 00:51
Well, never underestimate the placebo effect. (And never underestimate the effect it has when the taker finds out).

Did you ask them whether there was anything else besides water molecules in the water? Would have been interesting to hear they were selling distilled water.
Ahh, they pooh-poohed distilled water, as it's atomic structure was somehow lacking...
Dobbsworld
19-10-2005, 00:53
Anyway, for anyone still even remotely interested in this thin little ongoing drama, I did indeed give my friend a call this morning, and we're making tentative plans to meet this weekend.

Wish me luck, I think I'm gonna need it.
Dobbsworld
19-10-2005, 00:54
It's the Theory of Intelligent Magnetism.
Okay, that made me laugh. Thanks, Gymoor. You're one of the good ones, but I'm sure you already know that.
Gymoor II The Return
24-10-2005, 11:38
Okay, that made me laugh. Thanks, Gymoor. You're one of the good ones, but I'm sure you already know that.

Now that's a truly excellent compliment. Thank you.