NationStates Jolt Archive

My Thoughts on Physics and the Human Spirit (a pseudo-rant on meta-reality)

The most basic laws of Physics states that Energy can never be destroyed, it only changes forms within an infinite universe.

The human brain is the center of thought, and the brain is a mass of electrochemical reactions that are the basis of human awareness.

Since Physics tells us that Energy can never be destroyed, where does all this electro energy that is the basis of human thought go?

Is it so out there to ask if all that energy in the human brain is in fact our soul?

I won't go too deep into theology but I am asking if it's possible that it isn't the heart that is the seat of our souls, it is the brain. The seat of reason and mental processing.

And if there is soul in there, where does it go when our body functions no more?

My Thoughts on Physics and the Human Spirit (a pseudo-rant on meta-reality)

The most basic laws of Physics states that Energy can never be destroyed, it only changes forms within an infinite universe.

The human brain is the center of thought, and the brain is a mass of electrochemical reactions that are the basis of human awareness.

Since Physics tells us that Energy can never be destroyed, where does all this electro energy that is the basis of human thought go?

Is it so out there to ask if all that energy in the human brain is in fact our soul?

I won't go too deep into theology but I am asking if it's possible that it isn't the heart that is the seat of our souls, it is the brain. The seat of reason and mental processing.

And if there is soul in there, where does it go when our body functions no more?

That energy, my friend, is basicly used by bacteria and worms.

My Thoughts on Physics and the Human Spirit (a pseudo-rant on meta-reality)

The most basic laws of Physics states that Energy can never be destroyed, it only changes forms within an infinite universe.



If our soul really does sit in the brain & is composed of energy, it is converted when we die to.. ? * cant think *

I believe.

If our soul really does sit in the brain & is composed of energy, it is converted when we die to.. ? * cant think *

I believe.

As far as I know the electrical part just dissipates, probably mostly into heat.

In any case, this really wouldn't be the classical concept of the soul, as it wouldn't stay in a very similar form after death. It would be like saying water has a soul that is transmitted into us when we ingest it.

In any case, this really wouldn't be the classical concept of the soul, as it wouldn't stay in a very similar form after death.

Well, it's pretty close to the notion of the soul as expressed by Lucretus - a fluid entity which just dissipates into the surroundings following bodily death.

That energy, my friend, is basicly used by bacteria and worms.

Don't forget the conversion to heat.

even if the electricity in your neurons might outlive you, why would it stay together after you die when nothing else in your body does?

what would be the vessel keeping this energy from disipating?

Hmm, I didn't really do much neurology so I don't know this in detail...

The electrical energy in our brains is not the same as electricity running down a wire. If I recall correctly, it's chemical in origin, and would of course by powered by our food. Our neurons manipulate ions to create a difference in charge, and these charges move around our brain similar to a mexican wave in a stadium. So the energy in our brains is something that is generated constantly, like the energy that moves our muscles.

In any case, this really wouldn't be the classical concept of the soul, as it wouldn't stay in a very similar form after death. It would be like saying water has a soul that is transmitted into us when we ingest it.

Yeah, but adds a whole 'nother peg to that whole concept the..Greeks? Had where they said looking into a mirror in water was a portal to their soul.. Actually, if that theory he has is - by some obscure reason - true then looking into any mirror would be a "portal" to our soul.

Source;) (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=portal)
por·tal Pronunciation Key (pôrtl, pr-)
n.


3. The portal vein.

To cut to the chase - entropy.

What is interesting about the brain is not the fact that it contains such-and-such an amount of energy, but rather that it is energy which is involved in particular processes: in other words it is the state of organisation which is crucial.

Come the termination of life functions in the body this ordered state falls prey to inevitable entropic decline.

what would be the vessel keeping this energy from disipating?

http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/partz51.jpg

A leyden jar?

My Thoughts on Physics and the Human Spirit (a pseudo-rant on meta-reality)

The most basic laws of Physics states that Energy can never be destroyed, it only changes forms within an infinite universe.

The human brain is the center of thought, and the brain is a mass of electrochemical reactions that are the basis of human awareness.

Since Physics tells us that Energy can never be destroyed, where does all this electro energy that is the basis of human thought go?

Is it so out there to ask if all that energy in the human brain is in fact our soul?

I won't go too deep into theology but I am asking if it's possible that it isn't the heart that is the seat of our souls, it is the brain. The seat of reason and mental processing.

And if there is soul in there, where does it go when our body functions no more?

I don't think that it is wise to try to "prove" scientifically things like souls, or God.
I mean it isn't exactly testable.

but your arguement would kinda make sense except that I don't see a soul as a worldly thing, therefore it wouldn't be subject to the laws of physics

My Thoughts on Physics and the Human Spirit (a pseudo-rant on meta-reality)

The most basic laws of Physics states that Energy can never be destroyed, it only changes forms within an infinite universe.

The human brain is the center of thought, and the brain is a mass of electrochemical reactions that are the basis of human awareness.

Since Physics tells us that Energy can never be destroyed, where does all this electro energy that is the basis of human thought go?

Is it so out there to ask if all that energy in the human brain is in fact our soul?

I won't go too deep into theology but I am asking if it's possible that it isn't the heart that is the seat of our souls, it is the brain. The seat of reason and mental processing.

And if there is soul in there, where does it go when our body functions no more?


By the same reasoning, a light bulb would stay lit when the power was turned off...

SOUL, SPIRIT AND MIND

Question. -- What is the difference between the mind, spirit and soul?

Answer. -- It has been before explained that spirit is universally divided into five categories: the vegetable spirit, the animal spirit, the human spirit, the spirit of faith, and the Holy Spirit.

The vegetable spirit is the power of growth which is brought about in the seed through the influence of other existences.

The animal spirit is the power of all the senses, which is realized from the composition and mingling of elements; when this composition decomposes, the power also perishes and becomes annihilated. It may be likened to this lamp: when the oil, wick and fire are combined, it is lighted; and when this combination is dissolved -- that is to say, when the combined parts are separated from one another -- the lamp also is extinguished.

The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names -- the human spirit and the rational soul -- designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.

But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp. Spirit is the tree, and the mind is the fruit. Mind is the perfection of the spirit and is its essential quality, as the sun's rays are the essential necessity of the sun.

This explanation, though short, is complete; therefore, reflect upon it, and if God wills, you may become acquainted with the details.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 207)

snip

Umm...how did that relate to the thread?

Umm...how did that relate to the thread?

The question is about the human soul. If the answer does not make sense to you that's fine.

The question is about the human soul. If the answer does not make sense to you that's fine.

Sorry, I didn't read the whole thing. I'm inconsiderate that way. My apologies.

So are you basically saying that what the OP was talking about is the animal soul?

Sorry, I didn't read the whole thing. I'm inconsiderate that way. My apologies.

So are you basically saying that what the OP was talking about is the animal soul?

OP? not sure what that means. But the answer has to do with the human soul and its relationship to the mind and body. Without the soul the other two can't exist.

OP? not sure what that means. But the answer has to do with the human soul and its relationship to the mind and body. Without the soul the other two can't exist.

Nonsense, where is this so called soul?

Nonsense, where is this so called soul?

Where is time, man? Time is relative. Only light is a constant. Whoa man. I just blew my own mind.

Oh no I didn't. I just had to reboot. Hold on. There we go.

Carry on.

Nonsense, where is this so called soul?
Where is this thing called mind?

My Thoughts on Physics and the Human Spirit (a pseudo-rant on meta-reality)

The most basic laws of Physics states that Energy can never be destroyed, it only changes forms within an infinite universe.

The human brain is the center of thought, and the brain is a mass of electrochemical reactions that are the basis of human awareness.

Since Physics tells us that Energy can never be destroyed, where does all this electro energy that is the basis of human thought go?

Is it so out there to ask if all that energy in the human brain is in fact our soul?

I won't go too deep into theology but I am asking if it's possible that it isn't the heart that is the seat of our souls, it is the brain. The seat of reason and mental processing.

And if there is soul in there, where does it go when our body functions no more?

The electrochemical reactions are what makes the brain function, but actual information is in the form of physical connections between neurons.

Where is this thing called mind?
Within the connections between neurons in the brain.

Within the connections between neurons in the brain.
*raises eyebrow* Do you mean in the axons? Or the synapses? Then are you equating the transmission of data with the mind?

*raises eyebrow* Do you mean in the axons? Or the synapses? Then are you equating the transmission of data with the mind?

The human as machine...

What an original consept!:rolleyes:

My Thoughts on Physics and the Human Spirit (a pseudo-rant on meta-reality)

The most basic laws of Physics states that Energy can never be destroyed, it only changes forms within an infinite universe.

The human brain is the center of thought, and the brain is a mass of electrochemical reactions that are the basis of human awareness.

Since Physics tells us that Energy can never be destroyed, where does all this electro energy that is the basis of human thought go?

Is it so out there to ask if all that energy in the human brain is in fact our soul?

I won't go too deep into theology but I am asking if it's possible that it isn't the heart that is the seat of our souls, it is the brain. The seat of reason and mental processing.

And if there is soul in there, where does it go when our body functions no more?


The amount of energy is very small and most just gets turned into heat.

The most basic laws of Physics states that Energy can never be destroyed, it only changes forms within an infinite universe.
Matter cannot be created or destroyed, however, energy can be converted to mass and mass to energy.
There is no evidence to suggest that the universe is infinite either. Quite the contrary.

The human brain is the center of thought, and the brain is a mass of electrochemical reactions that are the basis of human awareness.

Since Physics tells us that Energy can never be destroyed, where does all this electro energy that is the basis of human thought go?
It dissipates. The energy in our brains is the result of breaking down food. If we're not ingesting any more food, our brains stop working, the energy is no longer being used by our brains and the processes die out.

Is it so out there to ask if all that energy in the human brain is in fact our soul?
Yes, it is.

I won't go too deep into theology but I am asking if it's possible that it isn't the heart that is the seat of our souls, it is the brain. The seat of reason and mental processing.

And if there is soul in there, where does it go when our body functions no more?
There is no empirical evidence to suggest the existence of a soul. So there's no need for an empirical answer to any of your questions. If you want to believe in the existence of a soul, you're going to have to go on faith alone.

The fact that the body is home to many biochemical activities is no mystery. However, the fact that living organisms utilize energy is not supportive of a soul. You can't go from biochemical to something as magical as a soul and call that science, because it isn't: it's unfounded speculation. On another note, you ask where does the body's energy go? It dissipates. It's similar to how when you swing a pendulum, you transfer potential energy into the pendulum, forming kinetic energy. There's no magical energy force at work.

<snipped> Then are you equating the transmission of data with the mind?
Yeah. Like the way electricity travels through the microscopic switches in a processor that results in my computer running programs the chemicals traveling across the synapses result in my brain running a program called me.

Yeah. Like the way electricity travels through the microscopic switches in a processor that results in my computer running programs the chemicals traveling across the synapses result in my brain running a program called me.
Or the way pictures "move along the cable" into the television. Right. But now, you have to differentiate between coded information in the device and the interpreted information that is useful to "me".

Two different things: the brain stores coded information that needs an interpreter, and it acts as that interpreter; but on the other hand, we have what is interpreted. For us, the brain interprets the code; the mind is the experience of what is interpreted. Two different things, simultaneous, but not the same thing.

Or the way pictures "move along the cable" into the television. Right. But now, you have to differentiate between coded information in the device and the interpreted information that is useful to "me".

Two different things: the brain stores coded information that needs an interpreter, and it acts as that interpreter; but on the other hand, we have what is interpreted. For us, the brain interprets the code; the mind is the experience of what is interpreted. Two different things, simultaneous, but not the same thing.
Why not just two separate programs running in the same computer and interacting with one another?

Yeah. Like the way electricity travels through the microscopic switches in a processor that results in my computer running programs the chemicals traveling across the synapses result in my brain running a program called me.

And, as there is no backup storage, when you switch off the program is lost forever.

Why not just two separate programs running in the same computer and interacting with one another?
Now I'm confused. What are the two programs? There are two "me" in you now?

Now I'm confused. What are the two programs? There are two "me" in you now?

According to you: the interpreter and the experiencer/recorder.

According to you: the interpreter and the experiencer/recorder.
No, we were talking about one program: "me". The "interpreter" is the hardware, and the experiencer is the user. Neither interpreter nor user are the program.

My Thoughts on Physics and the Human Spirit (a pseudo-rant on meta-reality)

The most basic laws of Physics states that Energy can never be destroyed, it only changes forms within an infinite universe.

The human brain is the center of thought, and the brain is a mass of electrochemical reactions that are the basis of human awareness.

Since Physics tells us that Energy can never be destroyed, where does all this electro energy that is the basis of human thought go?

Is it so out there to ask if all that energy in the human brain is in fact our soul?

I won't go too deep into theology but I am asking if it's possible that it isn't the heart that is the seat of our souls, it is the brain. The seat of reason and mental processing.

And if there is soul in there, where does it go when our body functions no more?
Human thought is a PATTERN of electro chemical interactions

The chemicals and electrons may not disappear but the PATTERN can

Its like saying I am phisicaly still alive because all my cells are either being used by plants or animals

The matter may still be there
But the pattern is not

Nonsense, where is this so called soul?

True you can't see the human soul, but there are lots of things we believe in that we can't see. The soul doesn't take up space, and can't be seen; neither can time or thoughts.

True you can't see the human soul, but there are lots of things we believe in that we can't see. The soul doesn't take up space, and can't be seen; neither can time or thoughts.
But both had an empiricaly demonstratable effect
The soul ... not so

Human thought is a PATTERN of electro chemical interactions
It is, indeed.

However, that pattern and what that pattern translates into are two different things. The latter is generally what is described by the word "thought (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=thought&x=11&y=18)".

Not so different for the soul.

But both had an empiricaly demonstratable effect
The soul ... not so
I disagree. If you read about souls you will almost inevitably come across poets and blues musicians; people describing things that touch their soul, move their soul, define their soul in their art, in interpretation, in emotion. There is as much empirical evidence for the soul as there is for thought.

I have no clue if it's been investigated scientifically yet, though.

But both had an empiricaly demonstratable effect
The soul ... not so
I think there is not doubt that the kind of evidence that some people demand, pure science, for the existence of the soul is probably not to be found today. But surely we can all agree that there is more to the world of existence than just science, as important as that is. Where would we be today with out song, poems, and art of all kinds. Have you never had a song lift your spirit; or, a news story bring sadness. Is your soul not affected? Can you measure joy, agony. Yes, I know there are chemical reactions, brain waves that can be measured with emotions. But that does not explain the effect certain events have on our spirit.

I think there is not doubt that the kind of evidence that some people demand, pure science, for the existence of the soul is probably not to be found today. But surely we can all agree that there is more to the world of existence than just science, as important as that is. Where would we be today with out song, poems, and art of all kinds. Have you never had a song lift your spirit; or, a news story bring sadness. Is your soul not affected? Can you measure joy, agony. Yes, I know there are chemical reactions, brain waves that can be measured with emotions. But that does not explain the effect certain events have on our spirit.
You have a talent for ending threads. ;)
just kidding

My Thoughts on Physics and the Human Spirit (a pseudo-rant on meta-reality)

The most basic laws of Physics states that Energy can never be destroyed, it only changes forms within an infinite universe.

The human brain is the center of thought, and the brain is a mass of electrochemical reactions that are the basis of human awareness.

Since Physics tells us that Energy can never be destroyed, where does all this electro energy that is the basis of human thought go?

Is it so out there to ask if all that energy in the human brain is in fact our soul?

I won't go too deep into theology but I am asking if it's possible that it isn't the heart that is the seat of our souls, it is the brain. The seat of reason and mental processing.

And if there is soul in there, where does it go when our body functions no more?
The electrochemical reactions that participate in human consciousness are only meaningful when they act on the appropriate structures. For instance, if a certain electrochemical signal reaches a cell that has had its compliment of receptors altered, the "perception" from these reactions will be different than in a normal cell.

In other words, consciousness is about both structure AND signals. If you change or remove either one, the other will not produce consciousness by itself. Whether or not "energy" is ever distroyed, human consciousness most certainly is not eternal...at least, not in the form we currently recognize it.

I think there is not doubt that the kind of evidence that some people demand, pure science, for the existence of the soul is probably not to be found today. But surely we can all agree that there is more to the world of existence than just science, as important as that is. Where would we be today with out song, poems, and art of all kinds. Have you never had a song lift your spirit; or, a news story bring sadness. Is your soul not affected? Can you measure joy, agony. Yes, I know there are chemical reactions, brain waves that can be measured with emotions. But that does not explain the effect certain events have on our spirit.
Actually, science is making great strides in explaining why art and music produce a specific set of emotional and physiological changes in humans. Don't sell science short...we're figuring out more than you think.

True you can't see the human soul, but there are lots of things we believe in that we can't see. The soul doesn't take up space, and can't be seen; neither can time or thoughts.
Provide an empirically testable definition of the soul, please. Keep in mind that we have empirically testable definitions of both time and thought.

I think there is not doubt that the kind of evidence that some people demand, pure science, for the existence of the soul is probably not to be found today. But surely we can all agree that there is more to the world of existence than just science, as important as that is. Where would we be today with out song, poems, and art of all kinds. Have you never had a song lift your spirit; or, a news story bring sadness. Is your soul not affected? Can you measure joy, agony. Yes, I know there are chemical reactions, brain waves that can be measured with emotions. But that does not explain the effect certain events have on our spirit.
This thread, however, is about scientific support for the existence of a soul. Not any other evidence, which tende to be subjective and/or opinion based anyways.

Or the way pictures "move along the cable" into the television. Right. But now, you have to differentiate between coded information in the device and the interpreted information that is useful to "me".

Two different things: the brain stores coded information that needs an interpreter, and it acts as that interpreter; but on the other hand, we have what is interpreted. For us, the brain interprets the code; the mind is the experience of what is interpreted. Two different things, simultaneous, but not the same thing.
According to modern neuroscience, the two are one and the same. Areas of parietal association cortex, as well as the infamous pre-frontal area, are believed to participate in both our integration of incoming data and our conscious appreciation of the interpretted data.

I once heard a scientist weighed some mice before and after their death (in very close succession). He found a difference in their weight and concluded it was the mass of the soul that had left the body. I also heard no other scientist ever replicated his results.

I once heard a scientist weighed some mice before and after their death (in very close succession). He found a difference in their weight and concluded it was the mass of the soul that had left the body. I also heard no other scientist ever replicated his results.
Yeah, there was a movie made about this myth, the idea that the human body loses some small amount of weight at the instant of death. It is, of course, utter bunk, but when has that stopped people from buying into superstition?

According to modern neuroscience, the two are one and the same. Areas of parietal association cortex, as well as the infamous pre-frontal area, are believed to participate in both our integration of incoming data and our conscious appreciation of the interpretted data.
Even you distinguish two things when you use the word "both".

This thread, however, is about scientific support for the existence of a soul. Not any other evidence, which tende to be subjective and/or opinion based anyways.


Science hasn't always been about large labs, big telescopes and fancy experiments. Before any of what we think of as modern science there was still science. People sharing ideas and therories, postulating, saying if this is true then this may be true also. Perhaps my remarks don't reach the high level of science that we are familiar with today. But still my remarks, I think, reach the level of science here on NSgeneral.

with my limited knowledge, this sounds kinda like it could fit in with a lot of animist or other religions that are really connected with the earth.


of course other religions, such as christianity, in their never ending attempt
to gain political influence over others have come up with concepts and
holidays to overlap those beliefs of the 'heathens'

Even you distinguish two things when you use the word "both".
I'm sorry, my wording must have been unclear. The "two" I was referring to were your invented "mind" and "brain" distinctions. My point was that the different functions you attribute to "mind" and "brain" are actually both performed by the brain. Yes, there are multiple functions performed by the brain (far more than two!), but that doesn't mean each function is performed by a different "thing" (like your division of "mind" from "brain").

In other words, you made up the dichotomy...I'm just showing you that they're two "sides" of the same cortex :).

Science hasn't always been about large labs, big telescopes and fancy experiments. Before any of what we think of as modern science there was still science. People sharing ideas and therories, postulating, saying if this is true then this may be true also. Perhaps my remarks don't reach the high level of science that we are familiar with today. But still my remarks, I think, reach the level of science here on NSgeneral.
I think you should set yourself some higher standards than "the level of science here on NSGeneral." :)

with my limited knowledge, this sounds kinda like it could fit in with a lot of animist or other religions that are really connected with the earth.

of course other religions, such as christianity, in their never ending attempt
to gain political influence over others have come up with concepts and
holidays to overlap those beliefs of the 'heathens'

Unlike your perception of it, I do not believe in Christianity in order to gain political influence over others. Nor do I explain it (to those who express a real interest in it) in order to gain political influence. Nor do I view non-believers as "heathens".

If you're going to wave the brush with the tar on it, make sure you don't wave it at me.

I once heard a scientist weighed some mice before and after their death (in very close succession). He found a difference in their weight and concluded it was the mass of the soul that had left the body. I also heard no other scientist ever replicated his results.
He weighed humans, and the eleven grams that disappeared was water that evaporated between the weighings.

The electric energy in the the brain is ignorable beside the energy stored as weight in the brain. It is also continuosly converted from chemic energy to electric, then back again. When you die the chemic to electric conversion stops, so there is no electric energy left. Besides, does a lamp have a soul? Electricity is no more soul than the blood or any other physical thing.

Electricity is no more soul than the blood or any other physical thing.
Depends on your definition of "soul." Nobody here has yet provided a clear one.

He weighed humans, and the eleven grams that disappeared was water that evaporated between the weighings.

Aside from which, the soul has always been defined as an incorporeal substance which has no physical properties, and so even if an actual loss of mass occured at time of death there would be no reason to attribute this to the departure of a soul, unless we are prepared to substantially alter its definition.

I think you should set yourself some higher standards than "the level of science here on NSGeneral." :)

Yes, without question. Now where are those bat wings.:fluffle:

I think you should set yourself some higher standards than "the level of science here on NSGeneral." :)

It probably ranks a touch higher than the level of science in International Incidents, but that is saying very little.

Yes, without question. Now where are those bat wings.:fluffle:
Pfft, you're still using bat wings? How primitive. I've got some beautiful eye of newt for you to try...guaranteed to give you the power of flight as well as curing all your warts.

Aside from which, the soul has always been defined as an incorporeal substance which has no physical properties, and so even if an actual loss of mass occured at time of death there would be no reason to attribute this to the departure of a soul, unless we are prepared to substantially alter its definition.
But, at least in this thread, we don't HAVE a working definition of "soul." Come on, somebody step up to the plate! I know there are soul-believers who want to address this!

Maybe if I pose it in the form of a challenge? How about this: you give me the qualities you say are possessed by the "soul" or the "mind" (as distinct from the brain), and I will tell you which part of the cortex generates those qualities :).

I know there are soul-believers who want to address this!

Sure ain't me. I'm just a bag of meat with some amazing emergent properties.*




* which, of course, is far more amazing and wondrous than a soul-based explanation.

There are in the world of humanity three degrees; those of the body, the soul, and spirit.

The body is the physical or animal degree of man. From the bodily point of view man is a sharer of the animal kingdom. The bodies alike of men and animals are composed of elements held together by the law of attraction.

Like the animal, man possesses the faculties of the senses, is subject to heat, cold, hunger, thirst, etc.; unlike the animal, man has a rational soul, the human intelligence.

This intelligence of man is the intermediary between his body and his spirit.

When man allows the spirit, through his soul, to enlighten his understanding, then does he contain all Creation; because man, being the culmination of all that went before and thus superior to all previous evolutions, contains all the lower world within himself. Illumined by the spirit through the instrumentality of the soul, man's radiant intelligence makes him the crowning-point of Creation.

But on the other hand, when man does not open his mind and heart to the blessing of the spirit, but turns his soul towards the material side, towards the bodily part of his nature, then is he fallen from his high place and he becomes inferior to the inhabitants of the lower animal kingdom. In this case the man is in a sorry plight! For if the spiritual qualities of the soul, open to the breath of the Divine Spirit, are never used, they become atrophied, enfeebled, and at last incapable; whilst the soul's material qualities alone being exercised, they become terribly powerful -- and the unhappy, misguided man, becomes more savage, more unjust, more vile, more cruel, more malevolent than the lower animals themselves. All his aspirations and desires being strengthened by the lower side of the soul's nature, he becomes more and more brutal, until his whole being is in no way superior to that of the beasts that perish. Men such as this, plan to work evil, to hurt and to destroy; they are entirely without the spirit of Divine compassion, for the celestial quality of the soul has been dominated by that of the material. If, on the contrary, the spiritual nature of the soul has been so strengthened that it holds the material side in subjection, then does the man approach the Divine; his humanity becomes so glorified that the virtues of the Celestial Assembly are manifested in him; he radiates the Mercy of God, he stimulates the spiritual progress of mankind, for he becomes a lamp to show light on their path.

You perceive how the soul is the intermediary between the body and the spirit. In like manner is this tree [1] the intermediary between the seed and the fruit. When the fruit of the tree appears and becomes ripe, then we know that the tree is perfect; if the tree bore no fruit it would be merely a useless growth, serving no purpose!
[1 A small orange-tree on the table nearby.]

When a soul has in it the life of the spirit, then does it bring forth good fruit and become a Divine tree. I wish you to try to understand this example. I hope that the unspeakable goodness of God will so strengthen you that the celestial quality of your soul, which relates it to the spirit, will for ever dominate the material side, so entirely ruling the senses that your soul will approach the perfections of the Heavenly Kingdom. May your faces, being steadfastly set towards the Divine Light, become so luminous that all your thoughts, words and actions will shine with the Spiritual Radiance dominating your souls, so that in the gatherings of the world you will show perfection in your life.

Some men's lives are solely occupied with the things of this world; their minds are so circumscribed by exterior manners and traditional interests that they are blind to any other realm of existence, to the spiritual significance of all things! They think and dream of earthly fame, of material progress. Sensuous delights and comfortable surroundings bound their horizon, their highest ambitions centre in successes of worldly conditions and circumstances! They curb not their lower propensities; they eat, drink, and sleep! Like the animal, they have no thought beyond their own physical well-being. It is true that these necessities must be despatched. Life is a load which must be carried on while we are on earth, but the cares of the lower things of life should not be allowed to monopolize all the thoughts and aspirations of a human being. The heart's ambitions should ascend to a more glorious goal, mental activity should rise to higher levels! Men should hold in their souls the vision of celestial perfection, and there prepare a dwelling-place for the inexhaustible bounty of the Divine Spirit.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 96)

If you postulate that the "soul" is the intermediate between "body" (motor and sensory systems) and the "mind" (centers for processing and directing conscious actions based on received inputs), then once again I can tell you with a pretty high degree of certainty that your "soul" is located in your association cortex. Possibly in certain regions of your prefrontal cortex, too, depending on how you draw your boundaries and which definitions you want to use. If you would like, I can prove this to you by generating localized lesions of your cortex. :)

Pretty much the rest of you post, GoodThoughts, was pure opinion, and is irrelevant. I'm not saying that to be mean, but rather to save you time in the future...you might as well not bother posting so much subjective mish-mash, since it doesn't apply to this discussion.

If you postulate that the "soul" is the intermediate between "body" (motor and sensory systems) and the "mind" (centers for processing and directing conscious actions based on received inputs), then once again I can tell you with a pretty high degree of certainty that your "soul" is located in your association cortex. Possibly in certain regions of your prefrontal cortex, too, depending on how you draw your boundaries and which definitions you want to use. If you would like, I can prove this to you by generating localized lesions of your cortex. :)

Pretty much the rest of you post, GoodThoughts, was pure opinion, and is irrelevant. I'm not saying that to be mean, but rather to save you time in the future...you might as well not bother posting so much subjective mish-mash, since it doesn't apply to this discussion.

No doubt that you can do what you say with brain. Science has learned much about the brain in the past 30-40 years and much more to learn. But there is more to life than just the material. You belief there is not soul, other in science say there is. If it is existence then some day it will be proved.

Gotta go.



What becomes of the soul after its separation from the body? The question concerns that which has a place and that which is placeless. The human body is in space; the soul has no place in space. Space is a quality of material things and that which is not material does not partake of space. The soul, like the intellect, is an abstraction. Intelligence does not partake of the quality of space, though it is related to man's brain. The intellect resides there, but not materially. Search in the brain you will not find the intellect. In the same way though the soul is a resident of the body it is not to be found in the body.

When man dies, his relation with the body ceases. The sun is reflected in the mirror; the mirror reflects the light and brilliancy of the sun, but the sun does not reside in the mirror. It does not enter nor come out of the mirror, nevertheless one sees it in the mirror, so the soul reflects itself in the body. If the mirror be broken the sun does not die. The body is the temporary mirror; the spiritual soul suffers no change, no more than the sun does remaining eternally in its own station. Even as in the world of dreams when all the physical faculties are in abeyance and the soul travels in all realms seeing, hearing, speaking, so when the physical body decomposes, the soul is not affected.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 127)

No doubt that you can do what you say with brain. Science has learned much about the brain in the past 30-40 years and much more to learn. But there is more to life than just the material. You belief there is not soul, other in science say there is. If it is existence then some day it will be proved.

Erm, I never said I didn't believe in the soul. I'm agnostic on the subject, as a matter of fact, since "soul" can have a bajillion different definitions. Your current definition of "soul" is one that I obviously believe in, because I have personally touched and stimulated the areas of the brain that give rise to what you refer to as the "soul." I don't call it the "soul," I call it "association cortex-related functions," but in this case those are just two different ways of talking about the same thing.

Now, if you start adding things to your definition (like "the soul lives on after the physical body is gone") then I might be able to start disagreeing with you. For instance, the functions you described as "soul" cannot outlive the structures and activity of the relavent cortical regions, any more than your ability to wiggle your finger can out-live the existence of your finger...if you haven't got a finger, you can't wiggle it, and if you haven't got a brain, you can't generate brain functions.


Gotta go.

Hope to see you around, have a nice day!


What becomes of the soul after its separation from the body? The question concerns that which has a place and that which is placeless. The human body is in space; the soul has no place in space. Space is a quality of material things and that which is not material does not partake of space. The soul, like the intellect, is an abstraction. Intelligence does not partake of the quality of space, though it is related to man's brain. The intellect resides there, but not materially. Search in the brain you will not find the intellect. In the same way though the soul is a resident of the body it is not to be found in the body.

When man dies, his relation with the body ceases.

Yeah, now we get into the supernatural stuff. It's conveniently impossible to prove, and therefore boring as far as I am concerned. I could make up a bunch of pretty ideas about consciousness after death, but then I would be engaging in the same kind of petty death-denial that afflicts so many humans already. Frankly, we don't need any more of that junk :).


The sun is reflected in the mirror; the mirror reflects the light and brilliancy of the sun, but the sun does not reside in the mirror. It does not enter nor come out of the mirror, nevertheless one sees it in the mirror, so the soul reflects itself in the body. If the mirror be broken the sun does not die. The body is the temporary mirror; the spiritual soul suffers no change, no more than the sun does remaining eternally in its own station. Even as in the world of dreams when all the physical faculties are in abeyance and the soul travels in all realms seeing, hearing, speaking, so when the physical body decomposes, the soul is not affected.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 127)The funny thing is, we can witness the death of the "soul" while the body is still quite intact. If there's anybody here who isn't familiar with the case of Phineas Gage, it's particularly interesting for this discussion.

So basically if electrochemical energy is a soul, then a hydrogen fueled car is a machine POWERED BY SOULS?

So basically if electrochemical energy is a soul, then a hydrogen fueled car is a machine POWERED BY SOULS?
Dude...you just blew my mind.

So basically if electrochemical energy is a soul, then a hydrogen fueled car is a machine POWERED BY SOULS?

Extra! Extra! REASON FOR SATAN'S DESIGNS ON HUMAN SOULS REVEALED!

This just in. New information shows why Satan craves souls. Aparently, gas prices are even higher in hell than they are in Europe. So he went out and got a Hydrogen fueled car, which, unfortunately, runs on human souls. This new information shatters the previous belief that Satan (also known as Lucifer, and various other aliases) was raising an army of the damned in an attempt to conquer heaven. He is really just a cheap bastard who wanted to save money on his long commute to and from work. A demonic insider, speaking on condition of anonymity, is quoted as saying "Yeah, Satan, not that bad of a guy, but kindof a tightwad. He just got this idea about harnassing souls a few thousand years ago. He told me 'Hey, the dead aren't using their souls anymore, and the cost of a gallon of unleaded is so high, if we switch hell to all hydrogen powered we can save millions!"

Extra! Extra! REASON FOR SATAN'S DESIGNS ON HUMAN SOULS REVEALED!

This just in. New information shows why Satan craves souls. Aparently, gas prices are even higher in hell than they are in Europe. So he went out and got a Hydrogen fueled car, which, unfortunately, runs on human souls. This new information shatters the previous belief that Satan (also known as Lucifer, and various other aliases) was raising an army of the damned in an attempt to conquer heaven. He is really just a cheap bastard who wanted to save money on his long commute to and from work. A demonic insider, speaking on condition of anonymity, is quoted as saying "Yeah, Satan, not that bad of a guy, but kindof a tightwad. He just got this idea about harnassing souls a few thousand years ago. He told me 'Hey, the dead aren't using their souls anymore, and the cost of a gallon of unleaded is so high, if we switch hell to all hydrogen powered we can save millions!"
Wow, submit that to The Onion :).

The electrochemical reactions are what makes the brain function, but actual information is in the form of physical connections between neurons.
Incorrect. The "information" contained in the brain is a combination of both the electrochemical signals AND the structures upon which they are acting.

Here's a simplified picture of what I'm talking about:

Neuron 1 releases transmitter X. Neuron 2 has a certain combination of receptors for transmitter X, and a specific combination of internal factors, and a specific combination of other inputs reaching it, and therefore Neuron 2 releases its own transmitter from its axon terminal. Now, if the signal (transmitter X) had not be received, the signal could not have been propagated through Neuron 2. However, if Neuron 2 had been structured differently, possessed different receptors, or been receiving inputs from different cells, it would also not have produced the same signal propagation.

Now, imagine all that, times a bajillion. Congratulations...you've just glimpsed the "soul"!

But, at least in this thread, we don't HAVE a working definition of "soul." Come on, somebody step up to the plate! I know there are soul-believers who want to address this!

Maybe if I pose it in the form of a challenge? How about this: you give me the qualities you say are possessed by the "soul" or the "mind" (as distinct from the brain), and I will tell you which part of the cortex generates those qualities :).
I bleive that the soul exists entirely conceptually, like the mind, and therefore has the qualities of being immaterial, internal and subjectively perceived. In other words, it is the translated content of information coded on the brain, as opposed to the coding itself.

Okay, go ahead, bottle ;)

Oh, in that case I will delete my response too!

Yeah, there was a movie made about this myth, the idea that the human body loses some small amount of weight at the instant of death. It is, of course, utter bunk, but when has that stopped people from buying into superstition?Well there was an actual experiment, so I don't know that it's a myth. It's just not something ever replicated, and therefore some odd anomaly. (Who knows? He may have had the heat turned up and the bodies dessicated. Or he may have found the only mouse, or indeed animal, to have a soul. ;) )