NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.brandonsun.com/story.php?story_id=7229

Recent results show that the Sunni opposition fell short in the number of votes needed to veto it. Most Iraqi voters seem to accept the constitution as legitimate. We're one step closer to being able to leave that mess behind us for good.

I bet $50 that within 10 years someone *cough cough* will have to 'venture' back into Iraq because it will have turned into a theocracy....;)

I bet $50 that within 10 years someone *cough cough* will have to 'venture' back into Iraq because it will have turned into a theocracy....;)
if it does return to a theocracy, then it would do so at the will of the people. Of course if that happens, it would be looked at carefully, but if it honestly turned back into a theocracy then we (the US) can't complain since the people allowed it to do so.

I bet $50 that within 10 years someone *cough cough* will have to 'venture' back into Iraq because it will have turned into a theocracy....;)

This constitution basically makes Iraq a theocracy. Islam is established as the basis of all laws and no law that "violates the spirit" of the Quran may be passed, not to mention that the Supreme Court falls under the control of an Iran-like circle of mullahs.

This constitution basically makes Iraq a theocracy. Islam is established as the basis of all laws and no law that "violates the spirit" of the Quran may be passed, not to mention that the Supreme Court falls under the control of an Iran-like circle of mullahs.

Nice job of misunderstanding their Constitution. Not surprised. YOu misunderstand alot of stuff.

*throws a celebration party*

December Parlimentary Elections are next

Recent results show that the Sunni opposition fell short in the number of votes needed to veto it.
Well, that's good news, I guess.
Doesn't that still mean that a significant number of people feel excluded from the process?

Most Iraqi voters seem to accept the constitution as legitimate. We're one step closer to being able to leave that mess behind us for good.
Mmh, I'm sure you'll leave it behind all right. But right now it seems to be a bit of a dictatorship of the majority, the Kurds are semi-autonomous, the Shia become semi-autonomous (and presumably like Iran a lot), and the Sunnis are somewhat screwed, what with having no oil or anything.

the Shia become semi-autonomous (and presumably like Iran a lot)

Likelyhood of a possible unification with Iran down the line?
:confused:

A 'Greater Iran' perhaps? Or perhaps a Greater Islamic Republic?!

Likelyhood of a possible unification with Iran down the line?
:confused:

A 'Greater Iran' perhaps? Or perhaps a Greater Islamic Republic?!

Not likely.

Not likely.
"Not likely"....that it? Care to expound upon that theory.

I know the historical animosities are there- that and the mix of Persians and Arabs, but i mean down the line- a decade or so. Could it be feasible given the 'right' leadership from both sides?

Nice job of misunderstanding their Constitution. Not surprised. YOu misunderstand alot of stuff.

*throws a celebration party*

December Parlimentary Elections are next

Cornie, I'm not intending to pick on you here, but I see you doing this all the time: Knocking someone else's point of view without contributing anything yourself.

So, what's your interpretation of the Constitution? How do you see the Supreme Court organized? What protections do you see to keep Iraq from sliding into a strict theocracy?

"Not likely"....that it? Care to expound upon that theory.

I know the historical animosities are there- that and the mix of Persians and Arabs, but i mean down the line- a decade or so. Could it be feasible given the 'right' leadership from both sides?

Not with the climate in Iran the way it is. Not to mention the people in Iraq want freedom and not to be a part of a theocracy.

Not with the climate in Iran the way it is. Not to mention the people in Iraq want freedom and not to be a part of a theocracy.

Why? You spoken to every single one of them?;)

Maybe they'll vote for a theocracy eh? D'ya ever think of that!?

Why? You spoken to every single one of them?;)

Maybe they'll vote for a theocracy eh? D'ya ever think of that!?

Yea I have but I don't think they will do that. For one thing, there are many religions there and for another, you still have to deal with the Kurds. If a theocracy does happen, look for a split.

Yea I have but I don't think they will do that. For one thing, there are many religions there and for another, you still have to deal with the Kurds. If a theocracy does happen, look for a split.

Exactly- split 3 ways: Kurdistan in the north/north west, some Sunni pokey little place in the centre, and the Shia south.... which then joins in with Iran.

The Basra area has already fallen heavily under Shia cleric influence (dominance)

One cannot 'enforce' democracy on an unwilling people. ;)

Yea I have but I don't think they will do that. For one thing, there are many religions there and for another, you still have to deal with the Kurds. If a theocracy does happen, look for a split.
Well, if it were to break apart, I'd think it would something like this:

Kurdistan proclaims independence and promptly gets into conflict with Turkey - leaving the US unsure which side to take.
The South would become Iran's best friend and maybe eventually join Iran. That's lots of extra oil for the Iranians.
And the Central Sunni area would be stuffed. Maybe they'd orientate themselves towards Syria?

*sigh*

I was actually hoping that this version would be struck down, and a new one worked on. There's going to be a lot more pissed off Sunni's now.

I'm hopeful that the process might actually work...maybe the parliamentary elections will help smooth things over...but at this very moment, I fear that this result might just be one step closer to civil war...with American and British troops caught in the crossfire. :(

Nice job of misunderstanding their Constitution. Not surprised. YOu misunderstand alot of stuff.

*throws a celebration party*

Nice job of contributing nothing - not even an opinion, let alone some sort of passage from the constitution to prove me wrong! I'd throw you a party, but you fail to do this so often, it would just exhaust my party budget.

http://www.brandonsun.com/story.php?story_id=7229

Recent results show that the Sunni opposition fell short in the number of votes needed to veto it. Most Iraqi voters seem to accept the constitution as legitimate. We're one step closer to being able to leave that mess behind us for good.
Don't know if anyone else has mentioned this on this thread, but don't you think that 1) the accusations of fraud and 2) the utter lack of support from the Sunni areas mean that this thing is going to get bloodier? All this vote proved to the Sunni minority is that they can't defend themselves at the ballot box, that if the Shi'ites and Kurds decide to team up on them and strip them of all their rights, the Sunni can't stop them. So why buy into the political system?

Don't know if anyone else has mentioned this on this thread, but don't you think that 1) the accusations of fraud and 2) the utter lack of support from the Sunni areas mean that this thing is going to get bloodier? All this vote proved to the Sunni minority is that they can't defend themselves at the ballot box, that if the Shi'ites and Kurds decide to team up on them and strip them of all their rights, the Sunni can't stop them. So why buy into the political system?

It would help if the Sunnis actually took part in the political process, and voted in greater numbers.

My prediction is that regardless of what takes place at the ballot box, Kurds will end up with their own effectively independent area. The Shiites will end up with their own effectively independent area. The Sunnis can blow themselves up from here to eternity with car bombs and suicide bombers - but the Americans will be long gone.

The Sunni triangle is noticeably bereft of most of Iraq's natural resources. They face a future of poverty and idiocy, brought on by their hatred for Kurds and Shiites, 40 years of abusing others, and an inability to comprehend that you have to participate in a democracy in order to get anything. Teaching your kids to wear suicide bombs is a first class ticket to hell for your descendants.

, Kurds will end up with their own effectively independent area. The Shiites will end up with their own effectively independent area.


This is the most likely outcome. Is it a good thing? Or a bad?

Will it result in stability..... or worse.... :( :confused:

This is the most likely outcome. Is it a good thing? Or a bad?

Will it result in stability..... or worse.... :( :confused:

Actually, probably a good thing.

1. Iraq, as a single entity, will not be able to threaten the other nations. Its component parts will not cooperate enough to make that happen.
2. The Kurds will be happy.
3. The Shiites will be happy.
4. The Sunnis will not be happy, but there will be nothing they can do except get used to being poor.
5. The US will no longer be there - so people back here will be happy (all except the handwringers, who are never happy no matter what the US does).
6. It will be very stable. Finally, the borders will be drawn where the local people want them drawn - not where some British Foreign Office wag decided to draw them a long time ago.

What comes around, goes around.

The Sunni minority had their way using Saddam. Now with oil rich areas under Kurd and Shitte control, they will find out one way or another what they were doing to the others.

Actually, probably a good thing.

2. The Kurds will be happy.
3. The Shiites will be happy.


6. It will be very stable. Finally, the borders will be drawn where the local people want them drawn - not where some British Foreign Office wag decided to draw them a long time ago.

2. Agreed... then they go form their own state which will attempt to encompass part of Turkey.. if not it'll prokove the PKK into fighting for a Turkish Kurdistan.... not good.

3. Agreed.... then they'll probably join their brethern in Iran.... Greater Islamic Republic.....

6. Agreed.... but probably not to the long term liking of America.

2. Agreed... then they go form their own state which will attempt to encompass part of Turkey.. if not it'll prokove the PKK into fighting for a Turkish Kurdistan.... not good.

3. Agreed.... then they'll probably join their brethern in Iran.... Greater Islamic Republic.....

6. Agreed.... but probably not to the long term liking of America.

As long as they sell us oil, we probably won't care.

The final chapter of the end of colonialism is yet to be written. Notice that most conflicts in Africa and the Middle East are the result of the introduction of arbitrary governments in countries with arbitrarily drawn borders - lines drawn on maps in the 19th century and 20th century by colonial powers.

It's not "just the United States" that is causing the problems around the world. It's probably more to do with the fact that after the Cold War, the US and USSR finally began to walk away from meddling with the post-colonial countries - who were still completely screwed up from being colonies.

Of course, in general, the Europeans have washed their hands of the whole thing (have to give credit to France for at least trying).

It's a lot easier to loot countries, draw lines on a map, and leave. They say, "it was working fine when we left".

.

Of course, in general, the Europeans have washed their hands of the whole thing (have to give credit to France for at least trying).

It's a lot easier to loot countries, draw lines on a map, and leave. They say, "it was working fine when we left".

Oh please... for generations the Middle East has been the USA's sphere of influence.... Africa is Europe's. There's enough blame to throw around for both blocs....

What comes around, goes around.

The Sunni minority had their way using Saddam. Now with oil rich areas under Kurd and Shitte control, they will find out one way or another what they were doing to the others.
Maybe they'll wise up and abandon the intellectual decay that has plagued the Arab world. Maybe they'll build universities and teach their kids to be usefull as constructive members of the global economy rather than cheap guidance systems for bombs. We can only hope.

Oh please... for generations the Middle East has been the USA's sphere of influence.... Africa is Europe's. There's enough blame to throw around for both blocs....

Well, I can't discount the effect that proxy wars and Cold War interference by the US and former USSR has had.

But I don't see too many European countries willing to go back in and try to straighten anything out. It seems they are quite content to let civil wars rage, genocides continue - as long as the chocolate, mineral wealth, and other nice things continue to come along.

So maybe the US should take a lesson from the Europeans - after you go in somewhere, draw random lines on a map, put some family in charge, and leave. If anything goes to crap after that, just wave your hands and blame another country.

if it does return to a theocracy, then it would do so at the will of the people. Of course if that happens, it would be looked at carefully, but if it honestly turned back into a theocracy then we (the US) can't complain since the people allowed it to do so.

"But it will have been the Iraqis' failure. And that, will have been a success." - Stephen Colbert, the Daily show, in response to Jon Stewart's question about Iraq returning to a dictatorship.

Well, I can't discount the effect that proxy wars and Cold War interference by the US and former USSR has had.

But I don't see too many European countries willing to go back in and try to straighten anything out. It seems they are quite content to let civil wars rage, genocides continue - as long as the chocolate, mineral wealth, and other nice things continue to come along.

So maybe the US should take a lesson from the Europeans - after you go in somewhere, draw random lines on a map, put some family in charge, and leave. If anything goes to crap after that, just wave your hands and blame another country.
In fairness, the 'Europe' your describing in Imperial Britain and France. Everywhere from Iceland and Ireland to Poland and Greece weren't involved. Stop tarring everyone with the same brush.

Do you mean 'European countries going to Iraq' or going into Africa? Because I agree with you on Africa, Britain, France, Germany, Portugal and Belgium should be sorting that mess out.

In fairness, the 'Europe' your describing in Imperial Britain and France. Everywhere from Iceland and Ireland to Poland and Greece weren't involved. Stop tarring everyone with the same brush.

Do you mean 'European countries going to Iraq' or going into Africa? Because I agree with you on Africa, Britain, France, Germany, Portugal and Belgium should be sorting that mess out.

Belgium is the one I love. When they left the Congo, they deliberately torched all the land records, the schoolbooks, and every sort of public record they could lay their hands on.

Fine, you want independence, you can have it. Reminded me of petulant children.

France seems to be the only country willing to skip the UN and go down and attempt anything in Africa. The rest (who had a hand in colonial Africa) seem to say, "well, that was a long time ago, and it was working when we left".

Belgium is the one I love. When they left the Congo, they deliberately torched all the land records, the schoolbooks, and every sort of public record they could lay their hands on.

Fine, you want independence, you can have it. Reminded me of petulant children.

France seems to be the only country willing to skip the UN and go down and attempt anything in Africa. The rest (who had a hand in colonial Africa) seem to say, "well, that was a long time ago, and it was working when we left".

I whole heartedly agree. :)

*looks at what the former euro-empires did* and they thought the US screwed things up. At least the US didn't draw random lines on a map and say "finished"...alot. Sure, maybe the idea of getting Sadaam to destroy Iran wasn't that brilliant. Niether is seperating tribes because of random political borders. Africa isn't exactly the land of peace and the only colonial powers there were European. I'm just saying that maybe there are some bad things the US didN'T do. A very confusing concept for US-haters and those who hate the Iraq war only because they hate Bush. I mean, come on. Grow up for once. Hate the conflict because of the fighting, not the leader's political group. At least the US didn't screw up Japan when we left. Those mushroom clouds did some good. Now, enjoy your nuclear power and the knowledge that WWII is over.

Africa isn't exactly the land of peace and the only colonial powers there were European.
You forgot Liberia!
:p

Fraud in the vote?
http://www9.sbs.com.au/theworldnews/region.php?id=123255&region=6

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/18/iraq.main/index.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4351680.stm

*sigh*

I was actually hoping that this version would be struck down, and a new one worked on. There's going to be a lot more pissed off Sunni's now.

Actually, I'll disagree with you there. Looks like there has been a high turn out to approve the constitution.

I'm hopeful that the process might actually work...maybe the parliamentary elections will help smooth things over...but at this very moment, I fear that this result might just be one step closer to civil war...with American and British troops caught in the crossfire. :(

I just love doomsayers. Guess what? This will help stem it off.

Actually, I'll disagree with you there. Looks like there has been a high turn out to approve the constitution.



I just love doomsayers. Guess what? This will help stem it off.


*clap clap*

Well done...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4347636.stm
In the queues outside polling stations, people were clear about what they thought a "Yes" vote would mean.

"We want to live in an Islamic republic," said one woman dressed in the traditional black abaya.

"That is our religion, so we must have a president who is Islamic too."