NationStates Jolt Archive

Before I begin I would like to say that this is purely an intelectual and practical questioning of Islam, and not a personal attack on Muslims and the many people who practise Islam. It is (I believe) a reasonable question about the Koran, and I feel within my rights to ask it. If there is anyone on here who feels offended or insulted by what I am asking then all I can do is offer my apologies and say that that was not my intention. To the practisers of Islam on here, I would like you to answer me in the question of the relevence of this quote from the Koran

"Remember the Lord inspired the angels (with the message):
'I am with you: give firmness to the believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: Smite ye above their necks [behead them] and smite all their fingertips off them.'"

Now as I see it this verse paints a picture of a vilont ideal where those who do not agree with you must be killed, and thus it can almost be seen as a justification to religious xenocide. So what I would like to ask is in what context is this verse written. Is it still aplicable today, or is it in a simmilar fashion to parts of the Bible found in Leviticus and other parts of the Old Testement which are now not considered practised by. I dont believe I am being unreasonable in asking this and if anyone feels that I am, I am more than happy to hear you out. I would like to add that this is a serious discussion however, and not for people to fling around unfounded and unworthy insults of each other. All I want is an intelectual and reasoned discussion on this issue.

EDIT

I don't agree with [insert religion] because they believe [something] and I think that is wrong because [explaination]
is fine

I believe it is in this fashion that I am asking this question, so I believe it to be reasonable. If anyone would care to disagree, I would be happy to entertain such discussion provided it is reasonable

Well, I think it is obvious that SOME muslims take that passage literally, don't you?

Well, I think it is obvious that SOME muslims take that passage literally, don't you?

Obviously. My question is, is there a good reason to? Or is there something that radical Muslims are ignoring that the others know about

Obviously. My question is, is there a good reason to? Or is there something that radical Muslims are ignoring that the others know aboutChristian here. I view it like the bible. some fundies take things to the exteme and others only concentrate on what they want to concentrate on. I think it's the same as Islam. but I would really like to hear their views on how they view not just that passage but others.

Before I begin I would like to say that this is purely an intelectual and practical questioning of Islam,

Why not stop wasting time asking other people questions about there religion and start answering those you have already been asked about your own religion?

snip
1. Let's look through the Bible and see statements there that, to state the difference, have no context to be torn from.
2. "Unbelievers" are idolaters, according to Islam. The term only polemically include Christians or Jews and Zoroastrians (if they do at all), to state that there is the risk of idolatry within these religions. There are a million references to how they are not idolatrers by any other standards.
3. Even for pagans, it is in a certain context. I clearly read in the Quran (don't know which Sura - if you do, post it) something ammounting to the conditions of cohabitation: pagans attacked Islam (and they did, the reason for the Hajj), and a Muslim is instructed to relate to them as they do not to Islam - even, to make agreements with them as they will not do with him/her (to be honest and fair).

Mmkay ... first, we must understand that we're dealing with Sura 8. Surah 8 is "The Spoils of War". It deals with all things war, including when war is justified, how to conduct yourself during, and how to accept surrender.

What the specific verse is doing is sort of a pep-talk. "Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more; or close the wall up with our English dead. In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility: but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger" etc etc.

Showing no fear before the enemy is common and, for some reason, beheading has always been one of the more vile things you can do to enemy soldiers. Also, if you chop off their fingers, they can't use their sword anymore. Logical.

You'll notice I say enemy soldiers. Yes, the verse says "unbelievers" and, frankly, there's a reason: Muslims are not allowed to wage war on other Muslims (that's also in Sura 8 and other places throughout Qur'an), hence, if there's a war, it must be against unbelievers. Also, Muslims in war are not allowed to harm non-combatants, women, children, or trees.

Sura 8 is the strongest evidence that al-Qaeda and other groups are not, and cannot be considered, Muslim. They do not follow the rules of Islam, they do not conduct themselves in Muslim fashion, and are so far removed from what Islam teaches that it's almost comical if it weren't so brutal.

"Remember the Lord inspired the angels (with the message):
'I am with you: give firmness to the believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: Smite ye above their necks [behead them] and smite all their fingertips off them.'"

I think that's what's missing in the interpretation: they are meant as instructions to supernatural beings, not to mortals.

These kind of misunderstandings happen all the time in religious texts, and no I am not a follower of Islam, but I do know how to read and think for myself.

Mmkay ... first, we must understand that we're dealing with Sura 8. Surah 8 is "The Spoils of War". It deals with all things war, including when war is justified, how to conduct yourself during, and how to accept surrender.

What the specific verse is doing is sort of a pep-talk. "Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more; or close the wall up with our English dead. In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility: but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger" etc etc.

Showing no fear before the enemy is common and, for some reason, beheading has always been one of the more vile things you can do to enemy soldiers. Also, if you chop off their fingers, they can't use their sword anymore. Logical.

You'll notice I say enemy soldiers. Yes, the verse says "unbelievers" and, frankly, there's a reason: Muslims are not allowed to wage war on other Muslims (that's also in Sura 8 and other places throughout Qur'an), hence, if there's a war, it must be against unbelievers. Also, Muslims in war are not allowed to harm non-combatants, women, children, or trees.

Sura 8 is the strongest evidence that al-Qaeda and other groups are not, and cannot be considered, Muslim. They do not follow the rules of Islam, they do not conduct themselves in Muslim fashion, and are so far removed from what Islam teaches that it's almost comical if it weren't so brutal.

I think the best book to put the Koran/Quran in context is reading a book called "The Life and Times of Mohummad", which goes into the details about Mohummad but also contextual put the verses what happened at that particular moment in time.

If you look at the historical context in which the book was written, it certainly isn't a violent book, but unfortunately those who in positions of power can easily take things out of historical context and use it as justication; for example, relating to unbelievers; Mohummad clearly said that you may argue, debate and convince, but conversion must not be done via force or under threat of the sword - it has to be a volunteery 'surrender' to God/Allah.

Then again, when put into context, the fact is, according to the book I read, all people are born Muslim, it is a matter of the individual recognising Allah and surrending/believing in him.

Obviously. My question is, is there a good reason to? Or is there something that radical Muslims are ignoring that the others know about
Amazing replace muslims with christians and you have some of my questions about fundies as well

"Dt 20:14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. Dt 20:15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby."

Every religion has its violent bits (even Buddhists went to some fairly gruesome wars, although I'm not sure about their scriptures), they are all a product of the world they sprung from.

Also, Muslims in war are not allowed to harm non-combatants, women, children, or trees.
Small hijack, but trees? I mean, I understand the women and children remark, but was there a serious problem of Muslim warriors going around and chopping down trees in the middle of a battle?

Small hijack, but trees? I mean, I understand the women and children remark, but was there a serious problem of Muslim warriors going around and chopping down trees in the middle of a battle?

Heh ... well the idea was to keep the lands intact so the women and children could still eat, rebuild houses, etc. There's always been a serious problem with humans completely wiping out massive tracts of land, leaving behind people who would starve or freeze to death without shelter.

I don't understand why people keep picking on the Qu'ran when it comes to condoning violent actions in holy books. Look at the old testament - the Israelites were right violent bastards a lot of the time, sometimes at God's command.

I don't understand why people keep picking on the Qu'ran when it comes to condoning violent actions in holy books. Look at the old testament - the Israelites were right violent bastards a lot of the time, sometimes at God's command.

If you want to make a thread about that, please do so and I will answer you. But do not hi-jack this one.

Thats a bit harsh. Is it not ok to draw a comparison with other holy books/faiths? It at least shows they're all equal in their violence :p

If this thread is about non-accusative questions about Islam, then I've one. I've heard that there is a rule that, when reading the Qu'ran/Koran, if there are contradictory statements then the one closer to the end is correct. Is this true? If so, then it strikes me as a fundamentally sensible rule. If not, then it's no worse than trying to make sense of various instructions in other holy texts.

If the thread is instead about the specific question asked rather than more general questions, then I apologise.

You'll notice I say enemy soldiers. Yes, the verse says "unbelievers" and, frankly, there's a reason: Muslims are not allowed to wage war on other Muslims (that's also in Sura 8 and other places throughout Qur'an), hence, if there's a war, it must be against unbelievers. Also, Muslims in war are not allowed to harm non-combatants, women, children, or trees.


Ok so another question. Acording to the Koranical (if thats even a word) justification for Jihad, is unbelief itself enough of a motive for war? In other words, is the fact that they are unbelievers reason enough to go to war with them? Or do they have to have done something else to you?

Ok so another question. Acording to the Koranical (if thats even a word) justification for Jihad, is unbelief itself enough of a motive for war? In other words, is the fact that they are unbelievers reason enough to go to war with them? Or do they have to have done something else to you?

No. War may only be waged in self defense. If we're attacked, then we may declare war. Jihad, however, is a bit different. Yes, one can wage a jihad in defense of one's home or religion (for example, if the government banned Islam, I am within my right to take up arms against the government), but jihad is more of an internal struggle to come closer to God or better one's self. Losing weight or quitting cigarettes are examples of typical jihad.

As for "unbelievers", Surah 109 tells us how to deal with them:

In the name of Allah, most Gracious, most Merciful,
Say: O ye that reject Faith!
I worship not that which ye would worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
To you be your Way and to me be mine.

And that's it. Everything else is in Allah's hands.

I don't understand why people keep picking on the Qu'ran when it comes to condoning violent actions in holy books.

In a time when men calling themselves Muslim are blowing up people, whose only crime was going to work, in the name of Islam, Avalon's question is 110% legitimate.

The fact that he(she?) *asks* instead of being presumptive is what makes all the difference.

Thats a bit harsh. Is it not ok to draw a comparison with other holy books/faiths? It at least shows they're all equal in their violence :p

The easiest way to derail a discussion on islam is by making comparisions to other religions.

The easiest way to derail a discussion on islam is by making comparisions to other religions.

Whose god orders the most violent plight for nonbelievers while on Earth?

Correct Answer: The Christian god because he ordered his followers to kill all those of a different religion, including family members, friends and even their cattle, whereas the Moslem god simply required the enslaving of nonbelievers.

“If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods . . . thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people . . . If thou shalt hear . . . Certain men . . . have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods . . . Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants ofthat city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword” (Deuteronomy13:6-15).

“Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection” (Koran 9:29).


Whose god orders the cruelest warfare?

Correct Answer: The Christian god because he ordered his followers to kill all the men inthe towns they invaded, enslaving only the women and children (who sometimes were to be slaughtered as well, along with every other living thing in sight.)

“So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates” (Koran 47:4).

“And when the Lord thy God hath delivered [a city] into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones . . . shalt thou take unto thyself . . . But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth”(Deuteronomy 20:13-16).

“If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods . . . thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people . . . If thou shalt hear . . . Certain men . . . have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods . . . Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants ofthat city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword” (Deuteronomy13:6-15).

“Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection” (Koran 9:29).


Whose god orders the cruelest warfare?

Correct Answer: The Christian god because he ordered his followers to kill all the men inthe towns they invaded, enslaving only the women and children (who sometimes were to be slaughtered as well, along with every other living thing in sight.)

“So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates” (Koran 47:4).

“And when the Lord thy God hath delivered [a city] into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones . . . shalt thou take unto thyself . . . But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth”(Deuteronomy 20:13-16).

I dont really have time right now to go into detail about these, but both the examples you have pulled are old testement, and thus not examples that can be used to justify Christians going to war now. For more infomation see here

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qamorite.html

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/rbutcher1.html

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/midian.html

For more infomation, just ask. But actually ask, dont just say things to rile up members of one faith.

I'm guessing from the fact that no one has responded to the aritcles that they have read them and agree?

I'm guessing from the fact that no one has responded to the aritcles that they have read them and agree?

No, Avalon.

People know you're an extremely right wing fundamentalist Christian with an anti-Islam bias.

They don't bother to answer you because they feel that would be feeding the troll.

I'm guessing from the fact that no one has responded to the aritcles that they have read them and agree?

Ah! You are not aware of the major problems with forums over the last 24hours or so?

No, of course, you lost touch with reality some time ago.

I'm not Muslim, but I have read about half of the Quran and there is a passage in the book that is to the tune of "If you kill someone the whole world dies." I know that isn't an exact quote, but it is close to that. I wonder how many fundamentalist Muslim groups skip over that passage. Perhaps someone can help me with that quote and post the real thing.

I'm pretty sure that Deuteronomy (sp?) is in the Old Testament. If Christians were to actually follow Christ's sayings (New Testament), they would find better things in there then what is usually used. I don't really think that the Evangelical, conservative Christians even listen to what Jesus said, it seems to me that they take the whole of the Bible to be what , tolerence and goodwill Christians should do, when Jesus actually preached about peace towards man. That is the problem there is usually a lapse between what should be practiced in a religion and what is actually done by the practioners of a religion.

Perhaps I've overstepped my bounds within the thread with that last paragraph. If I did I apologize.

If this thread is about non-accusative questions about Islam, then I've one. I've heard that there is a rule that, when reading the Qu'ran/Koran, if there are contradictory statements then the one closer to the end is correct. Is this true?

Sorry I missed this one ... it's a damn fine question. The obvious fundamental answer is, "Preposterous! There are no contradictions in Qur'an!" but I'll spare you that as it seems a silly and patently incorrect answer and not an answer worthy of your question.

Qur'an, like Torah or the Gospel, was written by men. Nothing anyone can do about it. The only thing ever written by Allah's own "hand" were the tablets containing the original (and 2nd) set of 10 Commandments, long since destroyed, placed in the Ark, and lost in the sands of time.

Allah inspired Qur'an, and Allah gave the revelation of Qur'an to Muhammed, who then told it to men. After Muhammed's death, men decided to write it down. Ever play "telephone"?

This is why I believe Qur'an to be a work of the greater whole, rather than just a series of verses. Pulling a single verse out of Qur'an and calling it the greater truth of it would be like pulling a single sentence out of Moby Dick and using it to ask what the novel was about.

Also, like the Gospel and Torah, Qur'an requires constant, lifetime study. There are no Cliff Notes. Some parts may give one person trouble, while that person may find other parts simple and straightforward.

The struggle to find the greater Truth within the possible mistakes of men is the greatest jihad of all.

I'm not Muslim, but I have read about half of the Quran and there is a passage in the book that is to the tune of "If you kill someone the whole world dies." I know that isn't an exact quote, but it is close to that. I wonder how many fundamentalist Muslim groups skip over that passage. Perhaps someone can help me with that quote and post the real thing.

5:32 "For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind."

5:32 "For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind."

The operative word being "corruption in the earth".

This is open to interpretation, and islamists claim that kufr nations are corrupting darul islam and hence killing them is not just justified but also a necessity that is demanded by the Qur'an.

Squeeze the mullah by his testicles and the interpretation will change.

This is open to interpretation, and islamists claim that kufr nations are corrupting darul islam and hence killing them is not just justified but also a necessity that is demanded by the Qur'an.

Aye ... but Qur'an also calls for fair trial in the same Surat. One can't just willy-nilly decide what that means. There has to be a judge and witnesses and the like.

Squeeze the mullah by his testicles and the interpretation will change.

Ok ... eww ... just .... ewww. You touch him there. :p