NationStates Jolt Archive

Thing is, I don't know what I'm getting myself into. Rewind: Friday night. Bone-tired, I nonetheless went out in support of a friend's Pagan "Mug" night at a local coffee shop. She's having a bit of a struggle, and isn't getting a whole lotta support, while dealing with a bunch of loose ends that may or may not help get her out of a bad, bad rut.

She's organizing a Pagan conference next month that looks doomed to failure - and once all is said and done she may have to declare personal bankruptcy; she's met someone who may just be the love of her life but who has incredibly insurmountable health problems; she's kept running into the same patch of bad luck regarding employment that I've been facing; and on and on.

Amongst all of this (and a few other things to boot), she's gotten involved with something that to my ears sounds like quackery and quite likely a money-pyramid scheme: magnetic healing. You see, I've been a little concerned about my friend and wanted to spend a little time with her, if only to give her whatever grounding I can offer. She's been there for me when I've needed her, so it seems only fair.

Okay, so she got to talking about this magnetic thingamajig and I couldn't quite get behind it. I didn't have anything concrete, just my gut instinct, but this stuff (magnetic bracelets, insoles, gloves - mattresses and pillows too, apparently) sounds... well, stupid.

Thig is, I have no idea whether it is or isn't. I don't know the name of her outfit so I can't track down a web presence... but I'm tagging along for a two-hour seminar tomorrow and I've been told to 'bring my skepticism and my questions'. I don't rightly know how to approach this, other than to listen to what's being said, try thinking it through, and if there's anything amiss, ask to have it addressed. I tried Googling about magnetic healing and debunking, but I just seem to dredge up a lot of gushing drivel about how gosh-darn-great it is to haemmorhage cash for a lot of magnetized trinkets.

I do know this stuff is being aimed at chronically-ill people or people suffering from chronic pain/fatigue. I assume there's some form of placebo effect happening. But I'm hardly a medical expert or at all knowledgable regarding magnetic fields. I couldn't tell you whether they possess any medicinal value whatsoever. I guess I'm suspicious primarily because this outfit seems designed to draw people in specifically to sell, sell, sell. I do not plan to buy into this - I'm not the sort who usually goes in for schemes.

I wanted to know if anyone can debunk this notion of healing magnets, or provide me with some good material to throw at this crowd tomorrow. And if I'm totally wrong, tell me what it is that magnets do that is supposed to be such a big help - other than helping to lighten the ol' pocket-book. See, I hate the thought of one of my friends getting sucked in by some scheme they can ill afford. If I get the sense it's a bum deal I'd like to be able to dissuade her, and anyone else in that room who might be thinking of spending their way to fulfillment.

Whaddaya say? Can I get some constructive cynicism here, folks? I figure NS has to be a good place to ask, or a good place to get started asking, anyway.

You mean this dealy? http://skepdic.com/magnetic.html

You mean this dealy? http://skepdic.com/magnetic.html
Yeah that sounds like just the sort of nonsense I'm getting in dribs and drabs from this woman - it all sounds like wishful thinking to me, with a lot of testimonials thrown in to cover their end of things.

I suppose I'm hoping for a conclusive means of turning off the spigot, metaphorically speaking, something that'll help me give my friend the sense to instead focus her energies on something more solid than a house of cards seemingly crafted to exploit the desperate.

Thanks for the link (I really meant what I said about Googling this subject - no real info, just a heapload of hype, and no obvious stalwarts decrying these modern day snake-oil salesmen).

If you're feeling like doing the research, the Journal of the American Medical Association has a number of articles on this, most showing no effects.

http://pubs.ama-assn.org/cgi/search?fulltext=magnets&submit.x=8&submit.y=2

Well I've tried poking around, but I guess I'll mostly just wing it - y'know, go armed with what I've picked up tonight and see how much rope they actually give me to hang 'em with tomorrow at the seminar.

I see the JAMA was quick to talk about electromagnetic fields and proliferation of cancers, something which had been troubling me as well. It bugs me that these rascals can sell products that really don't do any good, but definitely can actually harm those who use them.

I see the JAMA was quick to talk about electromagnetic fields and proliferation of cancers, something which had been troubling me as well. It bugs me that these rascals can sell products that really don't do any good, but definitely can actually harm those who use them.

I'm probably wrong, but I think there's a difference between "electro-magnetic" and other kinds of magnetism.

Thing is, even if they don't actually do anything, there is a big psychological element to healing. Sometimes, believing it will work is enough to make a difference. Of course, this

incredibly insurmountable health problems

doesn't sound very much like something the plaxcebo effect can cure.

And paying for this shit just sounds like a waste of money.

I'm probably wrong, but I think there's a difference between "electro-magnetic" and other kinds of magnetism.
I was under the impression that all magnetic fields are electromagnetic. Maybe I'm wrong on this...

Some relatives of mine are into this shit. They say it has cured all sorts of aches and pains for them. I say its psychosomatic.

And paying for this shit just sounds like a waste of money.
Seconded. I'm just hoping to be able to deliver a rabbit-punch at a critical juncture... to underscore that a) it's shit, and b) that it's a waste of money.
I just got off the phone with a friend who went so far as to say it all sounded rather cult-ish to boot.

*sigh*

And I get to spend two hours with these squibs tomorrow afternoon.

*double-sigh*

Some relatives of mine are into this shit. They say it has cured all sorts of aches and pains for them. I say its psychosomatic.
What kinds of aches and pains? Like what you'd take an aspirin for, or something more substantial, like arthritis or ...?

I was under the impression that all magnetic fields are electromagnetic. Maybe I'm wrong on this...

I'm not positive. I didn't pay much attention during high-school physics class. :p

I'm not positive. I didn't pay much attention during high-school physics class. :p
Heh. I got pissed off at my physics teacher for trying to get us to calculate the thickness of a layer of oil in a bucket of water. "Why don't you teach something useful," I said. "I know that I've poured a cup of oil into a gallon of water in a bucket. What do I care how thick the layer of oil is?"

He seemed pretty deflated after that.

What kinds of aches and pains? Like what you'd take an aspirin for, or something more substantial, like arthritis or ...?
I think its just old people random aches and pains. Minor stuff.

Honestly, I don't know for sure. I try not to pay attention when old folks start talking about health problems, it can get quite disgusting.
A word of advice, if you hear the word "fungus" from anybody over the age of fifty, run, don’t walk, away.

Heh. I got pissed off at my physics teacher for trying to get us to calculate the thickness of a layer of oil in a bucket of water. "Why don't you teach something useful," I said. "I know that I've poured a cup of oil into a gallon of water in a bucket. What do I care how thick the layer of oil is?"

He seemed pretty deflated after that.

Hehehehe.

I had to do a groupwork experiment where we had to cool down a jug of boiling water in the simplest and quickest way possible - but with minimal water spillage, and we could only use one other container to pour it into. All of the other groups were running pipes through theirs, trying to cool it by decanting it, etc. and all sorts of stupid and ridiculous ideas, making a huge mess.

We just sat there, and let our jug cool off on its own for a bit, then a friend picked it up and drank it. We didn't spill any, our water was guaranteed to cool down relatively quickly, and it would come out...eventually.

We got a C.

I was under the impression that all magnetic fields are electromagnetic. Maybe I'm wrong on this...

You are correct.

I hope you manage to persuade your friend that this stuff is a waste of time.

I think its just old people random aches and pains. Minor stuff.

Honestly, I don't know for sure. I try not to pay attention when old folks start talking about health problems, it can get quite disgusting.
A word of advice, if you hear the word "fungus" from anybody over the age of fifty, run, don’t walk, away.
It's not just old folks - this Pagan "Mug" I found myself a on Friday night was just crawling with hypochondria and people talking at length about all their aches, pains, troubles and illnesses. I felt a burning need to get away from the self-absorption of the sickly... actually cut out early.

Funniest part was that some good conversation, a cuppa joe & just one hit of Friezeland off my trusty, ever-ready pipe did that girl more good than several hours of various psychic whatsits, tarot readings and touchy-feely crapola did in the earlier part of the evening. I was happy to serve as a concrete tonic for my friend, I just hope she's not so down she'll unduly listen to a slick pitch masquerading as a curative.

What kinds of aches and pains? Like what you'd take an aspirin for, or something more substantial, like arthritis or ...?
According to my grandmother who bought, of all things, a feather bed matress with magnets imbeded in it, its supposed to work wonders on arthritis, which is why she bought it.

After about a month she gave it up as it was obvious the miricle she was promised wasn't happening.

The sad part is, these things ahve been around for years, I remember coming across an old Sears & Roebuck catalog from the mid 1800's that advertised magnetic corsets and underwear. I'm pretty sure that it didn't work then either.

Hehehehe.

I had to do a groupwork experiment where we had to cool down a jug of boiling water in the simplest and quickest way possible - but with minimal water spillage, and we could only use one other container to pour it into. All of the other groups were running pipes through theirs, trying to cool it by decanting it, etc. and all sorts of stupid and ridiculous ideas, making a huge mess.

We just sat there, and let our jug cool off on its own for a bit, then a friend picked it up and drank it. We didn't spill any, our water was guaranteed to cool down relatively quickly, and it would come out...eventually.

We got a C.

LMAO! Modern education has no room for creativity. You were robbed.

LMAO! Modern education has no room for creativity. You were robbed.
Naw, I can see why they got a C, they would have lost some water volume going through their, uh, 'filtration' system, the water would have picked up other impurities, and the temp would still be pretty high, somewhere around 98f at least. ;)

Hehehehe.

*snips*

We got a C.
I'd've given you an A for thinking outside the box. Maybe it's all for the best I'm not an educator...

Naw, I can see why they got a C, they would have lost some water volume going through their, uh, 'filtration' system, the water would have picked up other impurities, and the temp would still be pretty high, somewhere around 98f at least. ;)

Okay, but there should be additonal marks for minimalising equipment. Nothing in addition to the jug and a person is needed. And nobody ever said the water needed to be pure.

Overal, I give it a B+.

(And did I really just argue the merits of that experiment?? Where but NSgeneral could that happen?)

Kanabia, talking about old physics classes reminded me of this story (excuse that it's the Reader's Digest recounting of the tale, it came up on Google pretty quickly though:

The following concerns a question in a physics degree exam at the University of Copenhagen:

"Describe how to determine the height of a skyscraper with a barometer."

One student replied:

"You tie a long piece of string to the neck of the barometer, then lower the barometer from the roof of the skyscraper to the ground. The length of the string plus the length of the barometer will equal the height of the building."

This highly original answer so incensed the examiner that the student was failed immediately. The student appealed on the grounds that his answer was indisputably correct, and the university appointed an independent arbiter to decide the case.

The arbiter judged that the answer was indeed correct, but did not display any noticeable knowledge of physics. To resolve the problem it was decided to call the student in and allow him six minutes in which to provide a verbal answer that showed at least a minimal familiarity with the basic principles of physics.

For five minutes the student sat in silence, forehead creased in thought. The arbiter reminded him that time was running out, to which the student replied that he had several extremely relevant answers, but couldn't make up his mind which to use. On being advised to hurry up the student replied as follows:

"Firstly, you could take the barometer up to the roof of the skyscraper, drop it over the edge, and measure the time it takes to reach the ground. The height of the building can then be worked out from the formula H = 0.5g x t squared. But bad luck on the barometer."

"Or if the sun is shining you could measure the height of the barometer, then set it on end and measure the length of its shadow. Then you measure the length of the skyscraper's shadow, and thereafter it is a simple matter of proportional arithmetic to work out the height of the skyscraper."

"But if you wanted to be highly scientific about it, you could tie a short piece of string to the barometer and swing it like a pendulum, first at ground level and then on the roof of the skyscraper. The height is worked out by the difference in the gravitational restoring force T =2 pi sqr root (l /g)."

"Or if the skyscraper has an outside emergency staircase, it would be easier to walk up it and mark off the height of the skyscraper in barometer lengths, then add them up."

"If you merely wanted to be boring and orthodox about it, of course, you could use the barometer to measure the air pressure on the roof of the skyscraper and on the ground, and convert the difference in millibars into feet to give the height of the building."

"But since we are constantly being exhorted to exercise independence of mind and apply scientific methods, undoubtedly the best way would be to knock on the janitor's door and say to him 'If you would like a nice new barometer, I will give you this one if you tell me the height of this skyscraper'."

The student was Niels Bohr, the only Dane to win the Nobel Prize for physics.

Okay, but there should be additonal marks for minimalising equipment. Nothing in addition to the jug and a person is needed. And nobody ever said the water needed to be pure.

Overal, I give it a B+.
I'd go for a C+/B- for creative thinking and causing the teacher to laugh on a really bad day. I still have to conclude though that the water would have cooled faster if just left in a glass container as it takes about 20 minutes, if I recall correctly, for liquids to make it through that filtration system.

(And did I really just argue the merits of that experiment?? Where but NSgeneral could that happen?)
Why not?

I'd go for a C+/B- for creative thinking and causing the teacher to laugh on a really bad day. I still have to conclude though that the water would have cooled faster if just left in a glass container as it takes about 20 minutes, if I recall correctly, for liquids to make it through that filtration system.

Perhaps, perhaps. I value comedy over functionality though (can you tell by the way I post?;) )


Why not?

It's just a little odd, that's all. Fun, but odd.

LMAO! Modern education has no room for creativity. You were robbed.

Yeah, I know. :p

Naw, I can see why they got a C, they would have lost some water volume going through their, uh, 'filtration' system, the water would have picked up other impurities, and the temp would still be pretty high, somewhere around 98f at least. ;)

There was nothing in the criteria about impurities ;) Plus, urine tends to cool down from body temperature as you excrete it, because of small amounts being exposed to room temperature at a time allowing for better heat transfer. We covered that in detail in our write-up. We would have lost some fluid, but not as much as some of the other groups. (and technically, it hasn't been *spilt*, it's still within the container.)

Kanabia, talking about old physics classes reminded me of this story (excuse that it's the Reader's Digest recounting of the tale, it came up on Google pretty quickly though:

-snip-

Wow, deja vu. Guess which story the teacher photocopied out and gave to the class after our little experiment?

Hehehe. She was actually a good teacher, but we were only being smartarses so we got what we deserved in the end. I was happy with a C for little-or-no effort involved.

Hehehehe.

I had to do a groupwork experiment where we had to cool down a jug of boiling water in the simplest and quickest way possible - but with minimal water spillage, and we could only use one other container to pour it into. All of the other groups were running pipes through theirs, trying to cool it by decanting it, etc. and all sorts of stupid and ridiculous ideas, making a huge mess.

We just sat there, and let our jug cool off on its own for a bit, then a friend picked it up and drank it. We didn't spill any, our water was guaranteed to cool down relatively quickly, and it would come out...eventually.

We got a C.

I would have given you an A. I'm a little surprised that you got a C for doing a brilliant job of problem-solving in what was essentially a problem-solving exercise.

Damned education systems are biased in favor of tool use, I tell ya.:)