NationStates Jolt Archive

The USA was never ment to be in the current position that it was. It was suppose to be a series of states united for mutual protection. There was to be no strong central government, people had the right to speak their minds and change the course of government if they so chose to. The ideals of the original Republic are dead, what is left should be remained the Federal States of America.

What they try to keep hidden is the fact that we can and do have the right to stand up and demand change. We need to force the Federal Government to back down. Ease up on the central authority and once more return to the Republic we started as.

The question I ask is this... How far will the Republic fall? And where exactly will it end?

The question I ask is this... How far will the Republic fall? And where exactly will it end?

It depends on the people. If they get involved in the political process and elect leaders who uphold the principles you stated, the Republic will not fail. If the public remains complacent and does nothing, the Republic will continue its decline.

My question is how high will it go?

Every time America was made better it was because the federal government overruled the states and set things right.

Who put an end to slavery? The federal government.

Guess who ended the Great Depression? The federal government, that's who.

Who won WWII? The federal government.

Under the good old Republic the way it used to be "people had the right to speak their minds and change the course of government if they so chose to"...unless they were BLACK! Who put an end to segregation and enforced the civil rights? That's right! The federal government.

Shut the hell up with your backwards redneck conservatism.

In the original United States there was a party known as the federalists who did desire a strong central government over all of the states. There has really been no fall, only a shifting of power from the states to the national government. Whether this is bad or not depends on your political beliefs. I am assuming from your thread that you think it is bad but if you were a federalist then you would think that this is a good trend.

My question is how high will it go?

Every time America was made better it was because the federal government overruled the states and set things right.

Who put an end to slavery? The federal government.

Who ended the Great Depression? The federal government.

Who won WWII? The federal government.

Under the good old Republic the way it used to be "people had the right to speak their minds and change the course of government if they so chose to"...unless they were BLACK! Who put an end to segregation and enforced the civil rights? That's right! The federal government.

Shut the hell up with your backwards redneck conservatism.

Most of those actions where inspired by the people who wanted it to change. And the change came through the common central government. The central government was to provide for the states that made up the union.

Shut the hell up with your backwards redneck conservatism.

Uhm... I might be wrong, but last I checked, Federalists tend to be more conservative than States' Rights advocates.

And, by the way, the Federal goverment did all of that simply because the Federal goverment was the only one that had the authority to do it. When's the last time you've seen a state declaring war?

My question is how high will it go?

Every time America was made better it was because the federal government overruled the states and set things right.

Who put an end to slavery? The federal government.

Guess who ended the Great Depression? The federal government, that's who.

Who won WWII? The federal government.

Under the good old Republic the way it used to be "people had the right to speak their minds and change the course of government if they so chose to"...unless they were BLACK! Who put an end to segregation and enforced the civil rights? That's right! The federal government.

Shut the hell up with your backwards redneck conservatism.

Great post!

The USA was never ment to be in the current position that it was. It was suppose to be a series of states united for mutual protection. There was to be no strong central government, people had the right to speak their minds and change the course of government if they so chose to. The ideals of the original Republic are dead, what is left should be remained the Federal States of America.

What they try to keep hidden is the fact that we can and do have the right to stand up and demand change. We need to force the Federal Government to back down. Ease up on the central authority and once more return to the Republic we started as.

The question I ask is this... How far will the Republic fall? And where exactly will it end?

Erm, no. That was what the Articles of Confederation were supposed to do, and they did it quite well. The problem, however, is that the Articles of Confederation was an absolutely apalling system of government, because it simply did not meet the needs of the people, nor did it unify the nation in the face of common enemies. It didn't work again when the Confederacy tried it, which suggests that confederations of states are simply bad ideas. All of which is precisely why the Articles of Confederation were replaced by the Constitution.

The Constitution is not a social compact, because of two things. One, the power is vested in government by the people, not the states. Second, the power of the federal government is supreme in its sphere of influence, and all federal prohibitions of power are also prohibitions of state power. Simply put, if you want to argue that the Constitution is a document laying out a confederated style of government, you first have to ignore the fact that confederations are patently unworkable, and secondly what the heck the Constitution actually says.

All federal prohibitions of power are also prohibitions of state power.
Not necessarily:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
-The idea behind the 10th Amendment and States Rights was to ensure some level of decentralized government in the USA; to let more people than just the Feds have a say in things. Unfortunately, the Civil War marked a major blow to decentralized authority, a blow it seems we have not been able to recover from*

*Anybody who warps this comment to say I'm pro-slavery, save it for someone who cares

Uhm... I might be wrong, but last I checked, Federalists tend to be more conservative than States' Rights advocates.Being conservative means wanting to go back to the way (one fantasizes) things were. Whether or not the states' rights movement has beliefs similar to those of the conservative movement (and it does, since the Republican Party's Southern Strategy), it is a fundamentally conservative movement because its worldview is that today's problems can be blamed on a perceived contemporary phenomenon that must be removed or reversed in order to restore an idyllic past. That is simply irrational and dangerous. I actually agree with "conservatives" and states' rights advocates on many issues, but that doesn't stop me thinking that the conservative mindset is appalling.

I may agree that government is too big in some areas, but I won't let you fantasize about how everyone was free in the good ole days when the states were so powerful, when in fact it was states' rights which took freedom away from most.

Not necessarily:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
-The idea behind the 10th Amendment and States Rights was to ensure some level of decentralized government in the USA; to let more people than just the Feds have a say in things. Unfortunately, the Civil War marked a major blow to decentralized authority, a blow it seems we have not been able to recover from*

*Anybody who warps this comment to say I'm pro-slavery, save it for someone who cares

That isn't really a rebuttal of my point. The X Amendment states that there are powers reserved to the people or to the states that aren't reserved for the federal government. What I said is that nothing that the federal government is specifically prohibited by the Constitution is thereby necessarily allowed to the states. Specifically, I was referring less to functions of state (education, for instance), and more to pointing out that if the Feds can't make an ex post facto law for instance, by terms of the XIV Amendment, neither can the states.

The USA was never ment to be in the current position that it was. It was suppose to be a series of states united for mutual protection. There was to be no strong central government, people had the right to speak their minds and change the course of government if they so chose to. The ideals of the original Republic are dead, what is left should be remained the Federal States of America.

What they try to keep hidden is the fact that we can and do have the right to stand up and demand change. We need to force the Federal Government to back down. Ease up on the central authority and once more return to the Republic we started as.

The question I ask is this... How far will the Republic fall? And where exactly will it end?
Yep. The original republic died after Shays's rebellion.

I don't want to get you worked up on this, but, in my opinion (outsider is what I am, by the way), all your problems originate with your states, and all your solutions with the central gov't (not this "states-rights'-corporate-lobby-localist-umbrella" one you have now, of course).

In your view, it will fall much, much farther. Not that I find anything wrong with federalization. You're based on an antiquated view that republics can only exist in cities or small states, but you're wrong. Republics can effectively cover large geographic expanses encompassing many different people and cultures. In fact, it makes them stronger.

The USA was never ment to be in the current position that it was. It was suppose to be a series of states united for mutual protection. There was to be no strong central government, people had the right to speak their minds and change the course of government if they so chose to. The ideals of the original Republic are dead, what is left should be remained the Federal States of America.

What they try to keep hidden is the fact that we can and do have the right to stand up and demand change. We need to force the Federal Government to back down. Ease up on the central authority and once more return to the Republic we started as.

The question I ask is this... How far will the Republic fall? And where exactly will it end?

The matter of whether the Republic should have a strong or weak central government was a matter of debate amoung the founders (the Federalist and Republican factions/later parties). There was no universal intention.

This is more revisionist ideological history, with no connection to reality!

-snip-
Ah, so you're discussing enactment of actual laws passed (E.G. various states prohibit gay marriage; Feds step in and legalize it. Supremacy Clause binds those states to legalize it). I guess I mistook you for the whole matter of delegated/reserved/concurrent powers stuff. Federal law has to reign supreme, assuming it's Constitutional.

Actually it tracks back to Gibbons v. Ogden in the Marshal court not the founding fathers. That's where the interstate commerce clause became the elastic clause.....

The USA was never ment to be in the current position that it was. It was suppose to be a series of states united for mutual protection. There was to be no strong central government, people had the right to speak their minds and change the course of government if they so chose to. The ideals of the original Republic are dead, what is left should be remained the Federal States of America.

What they try to keep hidden is the fact that we can and do have the right to stand up and demand change. We need to force the Federal Government to back down. Ease up on the central authority and once more return to the Republic we started as.

The question I ask is this... How far will the Republic fall? And where exactly will it end?

Our government has been a Federalist one since the ratification of the constitution. The "republic" of which you speak failed to function adequately... People really don't get it. The Articles of Confederation failed so miserably that the framers of the constitution (who weren't even supposed to think about replacing the Articles) couldn't fix them, and had to create a new document.

The Constitution is a brilliantly written peice of work which (for all of it's failings) managed to strike a balance between Federalism and Totalitarianism.

Edit: Yes... I'm aware of the irony of this statement coming from my mouth (fingers... whatever).

Shut the hell up with your backwards redneck conservatism.

I can't stand bigots like you. If you have an opinion, say it. You don't need to bother us with your hate-mongering. :mad:

The USA was never ment to be in the current position that it was. It was suppose to be a series of states united for mutual protection. There was to be no strong central government, people had the right to speak their minds and change the course of government if they so chose to. The ideals of the original Republic are dead, what is left should be remained the Federal States of America.

What they try to keep hidden is the fact that we can and do have the right to stand up and demand change. We need to force the Federal Government to back down. Ease up on the central authority and once more return to the Republic we started as.

The question I ask is this... How far will the Republic fall? And where exactly will it end?

First, people don't bother to fix the system untill the system actually breaks. Similar to how nobody but a small percentage of people were buying hybrids till the nation felt a real pinch in fuel prices. So basicly, untill the system forces change on its citizens, there won't be much intrest in change dramatically by the general public. The other possibility is to provide our citizens with a movement they can all agree with. (No ridiculolus hot button issues should be promoted with this organization.)

To reform this country to its intended roots and its principles there is a LOT of things we as patriots must do to create a real reform movement that ordinary citizens can jump ship on comfortably and support enthusastically. We MUST adopt a new strategy to methodically change the political landscape over a long period of time till the movement stablizes itself. Nor does it need to become a political party itself to prevent it becoming under siege by already established political parties.

There are two vital things we need to start that movement. Money and organization. Do remember the American revolution was founded by rich men such as Washington, Handcock, and Franklin. The states didn't even fund the Continental Army.

The basic start is have reformers start and own businesses. That's right. Put down your guns, and pick up a business card. Having a group of allied business owners across the country invested in a common intrest will create a source of LARGE quantities of money that can be harnessed to help begin the other necessity for reform. Organization.

Frankly, all we have are a few organizations that actually take part in political reform. They are all loosely organized and not always focused on the fundamental intent of political reform. With an organization, we can gather with citizens and impliment a methodical strategy to change the political landscape and dynamics of the country.

The other aspect of WHY America has degraded over the years in my opinion has to do with two fundamental reasons. Public schools do NOT do a proper job of prepping and teaching their students how to be proper citizens in a republic. They are taught, tested, and tossed into the real world. They in general know little of their role as citizens in a republic. Its rather common sense that kids would be taught their responsibilities as a citizen in a republic. The other is the fact that few kids know the importance of the American Revolution's principles and the ideals that were forged in that time by its leaders. They are mostly taught a focus of WW2 because of the baby boomber generation's perspective of it. Hell, this whole intelligent design bullshit is far more of a issue in education which doesn't help kids in anyway to begin with.

So, as to when it will happen? Not sure. I am personally already going to attempt to form a business later in my future. (Mind you i'm only 23 at the moment and have just started my planning.) But if I had other patriots attempting the same, we could create a support system to make sure our businesses and goals succeed to help our country.

For the cause, for the republic.

Actually it tracks back to Gibbons v. Ogden in the Marshal court not the founding fathers. That's where the interstate commerce clause became the elastic clause.....
Bullcrap. The founding fathers knew darn well that the interstate commerce clause and the necessary and proper clauses were elastic clauses, that's why they were there.