NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, so we can all agree (hopefully): Stalin was evil.
With that in mind, where would you people place those inside the USSR that, in the moment of the German invansion, sided with Hitler? Do you think it was the right thing to do?
I suppose that, in your replies, you could point to there being several categories (let's say: anti-semites in the Ukraine to persecuted peasants in the same country, etc.; different groups united by circumstance), and thus stratify the attitudes. But, if you do, please elaborate.

Even though I'd say Hitler was worse, I don't blame them. I can see how they might have thought Nazism was better, since they would have known less about Nazism than Stalinism.

The Nazi's were Liberators of Europe.
People cheerd them as they expelled the Bolshievik scum.
However little did they now it would be one unjust rule replacing another.

I know Stalin as worse.

Ok, so we can all agree (hopefully): Stalin was evil.
With that in mind, where would you people place those inside the USSR that, in the moment of the German invansion, sided with Hitler? Do you think it was the right thing to do?
I suppose that, in your replies, you could point to there being several categories (let's say: anti-semites in the Ukraine to persecuted peasants in the same country, etc.; different groups united by circumstance), and thus stratify the attitudes. But, if you do, please elaborate.


I wouldn't place them anywhere. I don't think it is our place to judge people who lived through those circumstances.

For the record I think Stalin was more ruthless than evil. And Hitler was more mad than either.

For the record I think Stalin was more ruthless than evil. And Hitler was more mad than either.
Actually, psychologically, Hitler apparently remained quite normal to the end, apart from a bad temper and Parkinson's.

Stalin however was an all-out psychopath. Physically violent, completely paranoid and sadistic and constantly drunk.
In his calm days he was ruthless, in his bad days he was worse.

I wouldn't place them anywhere. I don't think it is our place to judge people who lived through those circumstances.
That may be. However (and it was reason for me pointing out the categories involved), some people in that situation were involved in horrible, unpardonable crimes. Many identified (in a very comfortable way) Jews and Stalinists, which led to mass killings.
There are, also, two very problematic instances: people resisting the Nazis (even conscripted soldiers) were exterminated in camps and other places; some of the Russian-proper resistance (such as Andrei Vlasov's "Russian Liberation Army" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlasov) would've had to know that the German plans involved mass-murder of their co-nationals (and Moscow being turned into a water reservoir).

Hitler was calculating and intellegent, he was not evil merely completely wrong... at least from our point of view. He did what he thought was what had to be done, the fact that very few other people took the same view as him should have indicated to him that he was wrong but then people in radical minorities never do seem to be worried by thir minority status.

Stalin was a good deal closer to the label evil. I'm not sure he had the slightest of good intentions in anything he did. He took pleasure in the pain he caused, this isn't to say Hitler didn't but merely that Stalin like to get in on the action personally. He didnt care for any portion of his populace or even of the nurmerous international groups he commanded that fought to bring his own brand of communism to other countries.

To people living under Stalin, Hitler must have looked like Jesus, i mean brought even the faintest hope of a decent society or at least one you could survive in.

To people living under Stalin, Hitler must have looked like Jesus, i mean brought even the faintest hope of a decent society or at least one you could survive in.

As long as you weren't a Jew...

Well it seems like no-one liked Jews back then, not the old russian regime, the new one or the germans... basically the whole period was a bad time to be a jew... had been for quite sometime.

As long as you weren't a Jew...
If you're a Jew, I guess you wouldn't place your hope in Jesus anyway.

If you're a Jew, I guess you wouldn't place your hope in Jesus anyway.
Thats a good point too :D

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Hitler was calculating and intellegent, he was not evil merely completely wrong... at least from our point of view. He did what he thought was what had to be done, the fact that very few other people took the same view as him should have indicated to him that he was wrong but then people in radical minorities never do seem to be worried by thir minority status.

Stalin was a good deal closer to the label evil. I'm not sure he had the slightest of good intentions in anything he did. He took pleasure in the pain he caused, this isn't to say Hitler didn't but merely that Stalin like to get in on the action personally. He didnt care for any portion of his populace or even of the nurmerous international groups he commanded that fought to bring his own brand of communism to other countries.

To people living under Stalin, Hitler must have looked like Jesus, i mean brought even the faintest hope of a decent society or at least one you could survive in.

The fight between Germany and Russia was only the final climax of all that hate, nationalism, and political ideology that traveled across Europe those years. Htiler was a brilliant criminal and politic, and at everytime he did what his people wanted until September 1939. And there were many other people, countries and leaders like him: Franco in Spain, Mussolini in Italy, the English King, Japan, Hungary, Austria, Estonia, Letonia (sp?), Lituania (sp?), and Rumania and Finland after the Soviet Union attacked them. Ah, I forgot Sweden, who gave them metal.

And also enterprises like IBM -developer of the ENIGMA machine/code-.

To people living under Stalin, it depends on who they were, he had looked as a Messiah, a saviour, a friend, as the same, or as a horrible fascist who has attacked your motherland.

BTW; anybody has a list of enterprises that helped the nazis?
Who knows, may somebody of us work for them, or buy their products.
Since this is a morality thread, we could ask ourselves how much are we opposed, and how much would we like to punish them.
Anybody here drives a Volkswagen?

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It made sense, Russia needed to buy the time. Stalin purged the Red Army of its officer cadre in 1937, and there simply had not been time to produce sufficient replacements.

In addition, in 1939, Germany did not have the resources for a war on two fronts, not even in the short term, and needed peace in the East while it focused its attention on Western Europe. So it made good sense for them too.

Really it was just mutual recognition that neither side was ready to fight the other, and the clash of ideologies would have to wait.

Nobody is evil. People make mistakes, and some have terrible mental illnesses or personality disorders that cause them to do horrible things.

It made sense, Russia needed to buy the time. Stalin purged the Red Army of its officer cadre in 1937, and there simply had not been time to produce sufficient replacements.

In addition, in 1939, Germany did not have the resources for a war on two fronts, not even in the short term, and needed peace in the East while it focused its attention on Western Europe. So it made good sense for them too.

Really it was just mutual recognition that neither side was ready to fight the other, and the clash of ideologies would have to wait.
I guess you thought this thread refers to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Although your point is good, in my opinion, we made no reference to this.

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So, anyone else?

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I'll go by body count. Civillians slaughtered (I'll not count the replacement of strategists and generals with political allies and the troop deaths that cost) Sieg Heil tarosovich! Hitler was a patzer when it comes to wholesale slaughter. Stalin wins the prize we'll give Mao an honerable mention.

I'll go by body count. Civillians slaughtered (I'll not count the replacement of strategists and generals with political allies and the troop deaths that cost) Sieg Heil tarosovich! Hitler was a patzer when it comes to wholesale slaughter. Stalin wins the prize we'll give Mao an honerable mention.
Forgetting our past conflict, liking our wounds etc. Good to have a reply from you.
However: let me point out that the debate was not about this (read post 1, please). I was asking what the attitudes are towards the people in the USSR who sided with the Nazis.
Please include post 6 in your consideration.

I was trying my best to avoid this becoming yet another thread of Stalin vs. Hitler (there's been about 1 000 000 000 of these already).

Ok read #6 I guesss it becomes a queation of motivation. I(f they were supporting Adolf in opposition to Uncle Joe I suppose they were moraly correct? This is one of thoise lesser of two evils questions and I don't do well with those. I usually pick none of the above. I'm more familliar with the White Rose in Germany than National Socialists in Russia.