NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/1013prisoner-toy13-ON.html

Yes, I can see where someone "needs" the sex change operation, but can't embrace the idea that the prison system needs to pay for it. Nor do I see a sex toy as medically necessary. Your mileage may vary.

Prisoner in sex-change case was given toy

Canadian Press
Oct. 13, 2005 10:15 AM

EDMONTON - A convicted murderer who made national headlines after winning the right to have a sex-change operation while in prison has been transferred out of Edmonton's women's prison for threatening staff, reports the Edmonton Sun.

The newspaper said Synthia Kavanagh was transferred last week to Grand Valley Institution for Women in Kitchener, Ont.

The newspaper also quoted a prison source as saying that Kavanagh was given a sex toy "for medical purposes."

A spokesman for Correctional Service of Canada couldn't directly comment on Kavanagh's case, but Cathy Stocki said that in 2001 the service agreed to pay for sex reassignment surgery in cases where it is considered essential by a gender identity expert.

Follow-up medical assistance like "aftercare" is provided if it's considered medically essential, Stocki said.

Meh, just give her a well sanded, silicone-coated dowel rod and be done with it.

WOW! :confused:

Are all Canadians crazy or is it just me?

What the hell?
I think all of that funny bacon has gone to somebody's head. I really wish that I had something witty and devastating to say here, or at least be able to ram an assload of innuendo up the collective skirts of Canada, but I am just completely shocked at the speed with which a country can go banannas.

Well, there goes 10,000 Canadian tax dollars.

Kavanagh was sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole for the 1987 hammer slaying of a transsexual prostitute in Toronto. She has also served time at the B.C. Correctional Facility for Women.

Kavanagh was born Richard Chaperon and was also known as Richard Kavanagh.

She murdered someone, and yet she deserves a life of comfort in being who she really is? I imagine the pain of not having the right body, but it is supposed that a murderer deserves to have that pain alleviated?

That's my emotional reaction.

Now, giving the sex change operation may have been a wise course of action. Without this operation, the prisoner could become a violent problem in the future.

Kavanagh was sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole for the 1987 hammer slaying of a transsexual prostitute in Toronto. She has also served time at the B.C. Correctional Facility for Women.

Kavanagh was born Richard Chaperon and was also known as Richard Kavanagh.

Yet she/he wanted a sex change operation? A world of contradictions.

Now, giving the sex change operation may have been a wise course of action. Without this operation, the prisoner could become a violent problem in the future.

Didn't work to well though, did it?

You know, it's entirely possibe that this "sex toy" isn't a sex toy at all, and actually is a vital part of her procedure.

You know, it's entirely possibe that this "sex toy" isn't a sex toy at all, and actually is a vital part of her procedure.
So?
She shouldn't be receiving the procedure in the first place. When one is in prison, one must expect to lose certain priviledges, having the government lop of your willie and give you some new plumbing is one of those privileges.

So?
She shouldn't be receiving the procedure in the first place. When one is in prison, one must expect to lose certain priviledges, having the government lop of your willie and give you some new plumbing is one of those privileges.
And all other vital (but not to fix an immediately threatening problem) medical procedures should be denied to a prisoner?

You know, it's entirely possibe that this "sex toy" isn't a sex toy at all, and actually is a vital part of her procedure.
In fact it's the most likely conclusion. You said it before I could. ;)

So?
She shouldn't be receiving the procedure in the first place. When one is in prison, one must expect to lose certain priviledges, having the government lop of your willie and give you some new plumbing is one of those privileges.
Ah yes. Because living in the right gender is a privilige. Kind of like how oxygen is a privilige?

Ah yes. Because living in the right gender is a privilige. Kind of like how oxygen is a privilige?

I don't see how being the wrong gender is life threatening in the same way that a burst appendix is life threatening.

As far as I'm concerned, it's cosmetic surgery.

I don't see how being the wrong gender is life threatening in the same way that a burst appendix is life threatening.

As far as I'm concerned, it's cosmetic surgery.

It's a serious psychological 'disorder' which in roughly 50% of cases, if untreated, leads to severe depression and suicide. The only accepted, and generally successful, treatment is sexual reassignment.

It's a serious psychological 'disorder' which in roughly 50% of cases, if untreated, leads to severe depression and suicide. The only accepted, and generally successful, treatment is sexual reassignment.

Considering that the patient in question had committed cold blooded murder by beating someone to death, I say let him/her take their chances.

I don't see how being the wrong gender is life threatening in the same way that a burst appendix is life threatening.

As far as I'm concerned, it's cosmetic surgery.

I don't think it's quite as unimportant as you think it is, but still - not important enough for prisoners. Unless they'd suffer severe and permanent psychological damage if they didn't get one immediately...

Considering that the patient in question had committed cold blooded murder by beating someone to death, I say let him/her take their chances.
Well, maybe I'm a bit more sympathetic than you, having experienced it myself. I wouldn't wish it on anybody, not even my worst enemy.

And all other vital (but not to fix an immediately threatening problem) medical procedures should be denied to a prisoner?
Well, if it is something that will never be essential for survival, then yes.
This loser somehow made it for decades without spontaneously combusting because she was in the wrong gender. If someone really hates the shape of their nose, should they get a free nose job? What about a woman who has always felt that her boobs should be bigger? What if she felt that a reduction was required for herr to tie her shoes properly?
Ah yes. Because living in the right gender is a privilige. Kind of like how oxygen is a privilige?
OMFGZ!!11! 1F 1 D0N7 G3T T3H V4G1N4 1 W1LL D13!!1!11!!!!
Get over your gender politics and join the rest of us in the real world every once in awhile. This woman is a murder! How much oxygen is her victim enjoying as of the moment?
Not that it matters, no! COME ON DOWN TO CANADA EVERYONE! Give us your sickos, your murderers, your rapists, and your pyschotics! Kill a hooker, win free surgery. Kill 5 and you get a pony. Burn a convent to the ground and get a FUCKING PARADE!

*Ahem*
Now that I have said my peice, I shall leave you all to your own devices.

Ah yes. Because living in the right gender is a privilige. Kind of like how oxygen is a privilige?

lol oxygen who needs oxygen. But on a serious note should the prisoner be allowed to get a sex change sure. But not on the tab of the canadian citizens. Why should they be forced to pay for it?

Ah yes. Because living in the right gender is a privilige. Kind of like how oxygen is a privilige?
Thats total crap. The dude should have been bitch slapped for even suggesting that he deserved it! HE MURDERED SOMEONE WITH A FUCKING HAMMER!

WOW! :confused:

Are all Canadians crazy or is it just me?
Just you

Considering that the patient in question had committed cold blooded murder by beating someone to death, I say let him/her take their chances.
I agree, murderers do not have the right to a sex change, even if they need it.

However, as I said, the prison system may have done this in their own interests, rather than for the benefit of the prisoner.

Well, if it is something that will never be essential for survival, then yes.
This loser somehow made it for decades without spontaneously combusting because she was in the wrong gender. If someone really hates the shape of their nose, should they get a free nose job? What about a woman who has always felt that her boobs should be bigger? What if she felt that a reduction was required for herr to tie her shoes properly?

You go through life barely coping, just waiting to build up the courage within yourself and find the right time. And even then you don't always get the chance.

It's a completely different thing to a nose job, or a boob job. It's a fully recognised serious psychological problem. That's why there's a 50% suicide rate (50% of transexuals will kill themselves by the time they are 30 if they don't recieve treatment). I wonder what the suicide rate is for people who want a nose job.

You are effectively claiming that prisoners with a psychological 'disorder' should recieve no treatment.

It's a serious psychological 'disorder' which in roughly 50% of cases, if untreated, leads to severe depression and suicide. The only accepted, and generally successful, treatment is sexual reassignment.
Good! Should've let the dude just hang himself and be done with it. How the fuck can people defend the rights of murders?

I just don't get it. *shakes head*

I agree, murderers do not have the right to a sex change, even if they need it.
Will you apply this equally to all prisoners who are in need of treatment for a psychological problem?

Good! Should've let the dude just hang himself and be done with it. How the fuck can people defend the rights of murders?
Because I know how she felt. It's almost punishment enough.

Will you apply this equally to all prisoners who are in need of treatment for a psychological problem?

What exactly do they get as treatments? Are there treatments medication or operations to fix their problems?

What exactly do they get as treatments? Are there treatments medication or operations to fix their problems?
Whatever the tested, accepted, and prescribed treatment is for the problem.

I agree, murderers do not have the right to a sex change, even if they need it.

However, as I said, the prison system may have done this in their own interests, rather than for the benefit of the prisoner.
They did it because they are all too afraid the big bad Liberals will call them fascist, sexist, insensitive bastards.

Whatever the tested, accepted, and prescribed treatment is for the problem.

Which would be medication in the case of psychological disorders. So why not just treat her like the rest of the inmates and medicate her problem? Why make the canadian citizens pay for a procedure that is not because of a life threatening problem?

It's a completely different thing to a nose job, or a boob job. It's a fully recognised serious psychological problem. That's why there's a 50% suicide rate (50% of transexuals will kill themselves by the time they are 30 if they don't recieve treatment).
Unless this man was 2 when he smashed that woman up with a hammer, I'm pretty sure that he has managed to pass that particular watermark. I'd also enjoy pointing out that suicide is nobody's problem but the dim sod who decides that there is no way to fix themselves. If you're that pathetic you deserve to die (and I almost did commit suicide, so you will know, and if I had been stupid enough not to pull the knife away before finishing the job I would have deserved to die too).
I wonder what the suicide rate is for people who want a nose job.
Actually, depression over appearance kills teenage girls off.

Which would be medication in the case of psychological disorders. So why not just medicate her?
Because the tested, accepted, and prescribed treatment for this psychological disorder is sexual reassignment, not medication (unless you count the hormones as medication).

Actually, depression over appearance kills teenage girls off.
At the rate of 1 out of every 2 by the time they are 30?

Because I know how she felt. It's almost punishment enough.
Oh, get the fuck off it! I have a serious back problem and I need surgury I cant afford. Do I kill myself? NO Do I go out and MURDER someone, and then ask other people to pay for it for me? NO Boo Hoo, the poor transexual murderer needed a vagina to feel better. BULLSHIT. I honestly DO feel pain for non-violent people with that problem. I can't imagine it. I'm not saying it's not a serious problem, but I am saying this. SHE MURDERED SOMEONE WITH A HAMMER!

What part of that don't you get? It makes me physically sick that Just because you've been through it, you'll defend it for ANYONE, even cold blooded murders!

Because the tested, accepted, and prescribed treatment for this psychological disorder is sexual reassignment, not medication (unless you count the hormones as medication).

Whats the name of the disorder again? I am have vague knowledge of this problem but I don't know the actual name of the disorder. And by medication I mean drugs that treat depression and I guess hormones could count.

Oh, get the fuck off it! I have a serious back problem and I need surgury I cant afford. Do I kill myself? NO Do I go out and MURDER someone, and then ask other people to pay for it for me? NO Boo Hoo, the poor transexual murderer needed a vagina to feel better. BULLSHIT. I honestly DO feel pain for non-violent people with that problem. I can't imagine it. I'm not saying it's not a serious problem, but I am saying this. SHE MURDERED SOMEONE WITH A HAMMER!

What part of that don't you get? It makes me physically sick that Just because you've been through it, you'll defend it for ANYONE, even cold blooded murders!
Before you went off on one, you should have noticed the most important word in my post; "almost".

I didn't say that it was enough. I considered adding "but, obviously, it's murder, so a lenghty sentence has to be given", but I figured I would let you go off on a rant and make yourself look a bit foolish.

Whats the name of the disorder again? I am have vague knowledge of this problem but I don't know the actual name of the disorder. And by medication I mean drugs that treat depression and I guess hormones could count.
Gender Identity Disorder.

And for some people hormones are all they need, but for others surgery is needed. It's very much a case-by-case basis (as with all medical problems).

Before you went off on one, you should have noticed the most important word in my post; "almost".

I didn't say that it was enough. I considered adding "but, obviously, it's murder, so a lenghty sentence has to be given", but I figured I would let you go off on a rant and make yourself look a bit foolish.
Your saying that convicted murders should get free sex change operations, and I"M the one looking foolish? Give me a break. Your looking beyond foolish. Your looking like an idealogue who puts your ideals above those of the majority of society.

Your saying that convicted murders should get free sex change operations, and I"M the one looking foolish? Give me a break. Your looking beyond foolish. Your looking like an idealogue who puts your ideals above those of the majority of society.
How so? All I've said is that she should be locked up for a long period of time, but that her psychological disorder should be attended to. I would say that for any prisoner who had a psychological disorder. I don't that that's an unreasonable position to hold.

Gender Identity Disorder.

And for some people hormones are all they need, but for others surgery is needed. It's very much a case-by-case basis (as with all medical problems).

Generally from what I've seen just by looking it up quickly it seems the treatments are either psychotherapy or a sex change. Now generally psychotherapy is used for mild cases while more drastic cases require the body to fit the mind. So the question now becomes could this person have been treated with psychotherapy instead of having a sex change. Now Nadkor before we go further on this I am stating for the record that I am not against this prisoner being allowed to have a sex change. What I am contesting is wheter or not the citizens of Canada should pay for the sex change with their money. Now when it comes to other operations in prison gererally operations are generally used for physical diseases that are either life threatening or can cause complications that will become lifethreatening. Another point we need to find out is wheter or not this psychological disorder would have been lifethreatening to the prisoner.

Generally from what I've seen just by looking it up quickly it seems the treatments are either psychotherapy or a sex change. Now generally psychotherapy is used for mild cases while more drastic cases require the body to fit the mind. So the question now becomes could this person have been treated with psychotherapy instead of having a sex change.
Well, obviously the psychologists thought not. The psychologists have to be 100% convinced that reassignment is necessary.

Now Nadkor before we go further on this I am stating for the record that I am not against this prisoner being allowed to have a sex change.
OK.

What I am contesting is wheter or not the citizens of Canada should pay for the sex change with their money.
Do they pay for the treatment of other psychological problems among prisoners? That's the important question, because that's what it was; the treatment of a pcychological disorder.

Now when it comes to other operations in prison gererally operations are generally used for physical diseases that are either life threatening or can cause complications that will become lifethreatening. The point we need to find out is wheter or not this psychological disorder is ligethreatening.
Well, in the light of the suicide figures, I would say that it is life threatening in many cases as a result of the deep depression it can generate.

How so? All I've said is that she should be locked up for a long period of time, but that her psychological disorder should be attended to. I would say that for any prisoner who had a psychological disorder. I don't that that's an unreasonable position to hold.

I do. I think that he/she (whatever) should just be put on medication, and if he/she kills him/herslf, than oh freakin well. Did I mention she murdered someone with a hammer? Someone with a Mom and Dad who will never see them again?

And before you call me an insensitive so and so, remember that he/she killed a transvestite, and thats who I'm sticking up for. I'm not bashing transexuals. I'm bashing murderers who suck up billions of dollars of our tax money. Money that could be used for, oh, I dont know, groceries, or rent, or bills?

I do. I think that he/she (whatever) should just be put on medication, and if he/she kills him/herslf, than oh freakin well.
The 'medication' in most cases is sexual reassignment. This has been reiterated time and again.

Did I mention she murdered someone with a hammer? Someone with a Mom and Dad who will never see them again?
Don't bother with the emotion card. Won't sway me at all. I've already said she should be locked up. Of course she should, she's a murderer. But I still think a psychological disorder in a prisoner should be treated.

I'm bashing murderers who suck up billions of dollars of our tax money. Money that could be used for, oh, I dont know, groceries, or rent, or bills?
The government would find somewhere else to 'waste' the money.


Anyway, nice talking to you all, I've got to go to bed now seeing as it's after 1:30am and I'm in Uni tomorrow at 9. I'll be back tomorrow.

Do they pay for the treatment of other psychological problems among prisoners? That's the important question, because that's what it was; the treatment of a pcychological disorder.
I would agree that they do pay for the treatment of other psychological problems. However that treatment involves medication not operations. Granted that this particular problem does involve an operation as one of the treatments there are other alternatives. So the issue is wheter or not this patient could have been treated in an alternative fashion with the same respect.


Well, in the light of the suicide figures, I would say that it is life threatening in many cases as a result of the deep depression it can generate.
I would agree that deep depression can be lifethreatening. So the operation would be relevant if there was no alternative treatment.

I do. I think that he/she (whatever) should just be put on medication, and if he/she kills him/herslf, than oh freakin well. Did I mention she murdered someone with a hammer? Someone with a Mom and Dad who will never see them again?
argumentum ad misercordiam. (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/ap.htm) Argument rejected
And before you call me an insensitive so and so, remember that he/she killed a transvestite, and thats who I'm sticking up for. I'm not bashing transexuals. I'm bashing murderers who suck up billions of dollars of our tax money. Money that could be used for, oh, I dont know, groceries, or rent, or bills?

Billions? Was the surgery in a castle in the moon?

The 'medication' in most cases is sexual reassignment. This has been reiterated time and again..
No, I didnt say treatment, I said medication. Give him/her some drugs, and if it isn't enough, TOUGH>

Don't bother with the emotion card. Won't sway me at all. I've already said she should be locked up. Of course she should, she's a murderer. But I still think a psychological disorder in a prisoner should be treated..
I won't because obviously, to you, murderers deserve more than the average joe who doesn't have health insurance.

The government would find somewhere else to 'waste' the money..
So we should just consider our money spent, instaed of trying to save some of it> Do you know what kind of tax cuts we could get if we cut benefits to sleazebag murderers?

Anyway, nice talking to you all, I've got to go to bed now seeing as it's after 1:30am and I'm in Uni tomorrow at 9. I'll be back tomorrow.
Goodnight. Have a good sleep. :fluffle:

argumentum ad misercordiam. (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/ap.htm) Argument rejectedIn order to appeal to pity, I would have to assume that it would do any good. I was stating the reason why I think he/she should rot in prison without any surgery


Billions? Was the surgery in a castle in the moon?
I'm talking about the billions spent on ALL KINDS of pointless stuff that murderers in prison don't deserve.

I'm talking about the billions spent on ALL KINDS of pointless stuff that murderers in prison don't deserve.
Yes, like the oxygen that apparently costs out the ass and has to be surgically installed everytime that a prisoner inhales.
All this time I thought that oxygen was free, good thing my pal Rotovia informed me otherwise.

In order to appeal to pity, I would have to assume that it would do any good. I was stating the reason why I think he/she should rot in prison without any surgery

Perhaps. But to me it seemed that you were saying that this person should spend thier entire life without recorse to any sort of medical treatment, or else justice would not be delievered to this poor dead girl. The very defination of appeal to pity.


I'm talking about the billions spent on ALL KINDS of pointless stuff that murderers in prison don't deserve.

Be more specific. Is it food? Water? Heating? Gyms, Libaries and Classes? Whats pointless expenditure and whats not?

No, I didnt say treatment, I said medication. Give him/her some drugs, and if it isn't enough, TOUGH>

In that case why give drugs at all? Either you make a commitment towards solving a problem or you don't.

I won't because obviously, to you, murderers deserve more than the average joe who doesn't have health insurance.

Just another example of why nationalized health is a good idea

So we should just consider our money spent, instaed of trying to save some of it> Do you know what kind of tax cuts we could get if we cut benefits to sleazebag murderers?

And do you know what drop in expenses there would be if ever criminal that entered jail never commited another crime. Every penny spent towards rehabilitation is a bargin considering the payoff.

Be more specific. Is it food? Water? Heating? Gyms, Libaries and Classes? Whats pointless expenditure and whats not?
Cable TV (tv's period), gym equipment, coffee, sugar, librarys, hot meals, classes. But only in max security prisons. Mind you, I'm talking about murderers here. Lock them up in steel cages.

In that case why give drugs at all? Either you make a commitment towards solving a problem or you don't..
The drugs are just to keep them managable, so they don't get out of hand for the gaurds.
Just another example of why nationalized health is a good idea.
Yeah, thats why when Canadians need a highly qualified specialist, they come to America. Also why highly qualified Canadian specialists come to America to work.


And do you know what drop in expenses there would be if ever criminal that entered jail never commited another crime. Every penny spent towards rehabilitation is a bargin considering the payoff.
Yeah, it seems to be doing wonders so far!

Cable TV (tv's period), gym equipment, coffee, sugar, librarys, hot meals, classes.

So basically, you want prisioners to be bored and misreable. Exactly the kind of conditions that cause a riot. On top of this you want none of them to be educated or learn any skills, so when they get back on the street they'll be back in the same situations they were in when they were arrested. Great idea.

But only in max security prisons. Mind you, I'm talking about murderers here. Lock them up in steel cages.

I see the reasoning here, but these people are being punished by the removal of their liberty. Not by being denied hot meals and sugar.

The drugs are just to keep them managable, so they don't get out of hand for the gaurds.

Oh you want to drug your prisioners. Good, because thats not immoral.


Yeah, thats why when Canadians need a highly qualified specialist, they come to America. Also why highly qualified Canadian specialists come to America to work.

Well in this specific case a person relying on private care would have got nothing while the person relying on the goverment got a sex-change opperation.
Besides this debate is probably for a different thread.


Yeah, it seems to be doing wonders so far!

Actually crime rates are are a 30 year low. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/25/crime.rate.ap/) But nevertheless, a criminal who gets a collage degree while in prision will almost never commit a crime again. It's where ye should be concentrating your resorses.

So basically, you want prisioners to be bored and misreable. Exactly the kind of conditions that cause a riot. On top of this you want none of them to be educated or learn any skills, so when they get back on the street they'll be back in the same situations they were in when they were arrested. Great idea..
I don't care what situation they are in. And I certainly dont want to reward their lawlessness by paying their way through school. Who's gonna reward me for the fact that I DON'T break the law? If they break the law, we lock them up. If they do it again, we lock them up again. If they do it again, well, three strikes, your out!



I see the reasoning here, but these people are being punished by the removal of their liberty. Not by being denied hot meals and sugar.
They should be punished in the least expensive manner. You wanna rehabilitate them? Then let them know that prison isnt the place to go for threes hot squares and a bed. Let them know it is hell, and it's NOT a place they want to be.

I don't care what situation they are in.

You should. People aren't born criminals. They become them. If you don't want them to return to thier criminal ways after thet've been released you should make sure they can make thier own way.

And I certainly dont want to reward their lawlessness by paying their way through school.

As far as I'm aware, you (as a taxpayer) pay for everyones way through school. Your point is redundent.

Who's gonna reward me for the fact that I DON'T break the law?
Go to a shop. Buy something sweet. Then go to a bar. Buy a drink, and chat up a pretty woman. That's your reward: Your freedom to do (pretty much) as you please.

If they break the law, we lock them up. If they do it again, we lock them up again. If they do it again, well, three strikes, your out!


You'd think that in places where this law is introduced, as soon as someone was on thier second strike, they'd never commit a crime again, right? I mean, why risk life in exchange for a stolen car? And yet they do. The reason:
1) They're idiots
2) Crime is thier only way of getting a large amount of cash.


They should be punished in the least expensive manner. You wanna rehabilitate them? Then let them know that prison isnt the place to go for threes hot squares and a bed. Let them know it is hell, and it's NOT a place they want to be.

Ever been to prision? It's not exactly a five star resort.

You should. People aren't born criminals. They become them. If you don't want them to return to thier criminal ways after thet've been released you should make sure they can make thier own way.
.Thats crap. I grew up poor as hell.(I don't mean no nice sneakers poor , I mean no new sneakers for to 2 or 3 years poor) I have NEVER stolen anything from ANYONE. Ya know why? I have morals.

As far as I'm aware, you (as a taxpayer) pay for everyones way through school. Your point is redundent.
.
I pay for people who deserve it to go to school. Not people who are gonna go to school, and then get out of prison and just steal another car, or rape another woman.

Go to a shop. Buy something sweet. Then go to a bar. Buy a drink, and chat up a pretty woman. That's your reward: Your freedom to do (pretty much) as you please.
.
You say that like it's a priviledge to be free. It's not. It's a right. And I could buy something a whole lot sweeter if I wasnt paying for bubba to read law books all day so he could figure out how to get away with crime.
You'd think that in places where this law is introduced, as soon as someone was on thier second strike, they'd never commit a crime again, right? I mean, why risk life in exchange for a stolen car? And yet they do. The reason:
1) They're idiots
2) Crime is thier only way of getting a large amount of cash.
.
It isnt meant as a deterrent. It's in place so that repeat offenders who cant behave are no longer in a position to rape my wife, stael my car, or kill my friends.

Ever been to prision? It's not exactly a five star resort.
Never been to prison, but I can imagine it sucks. But that doesn't mean we should coddle them so it doesn't suck so bad for them

Thats total crap. The dude should have been bitch slapped for even suggesting that he deserved it! HE MURDERED SOMEONE WITH A FUCKING HAMMER!
Maybe you should kill him with a hammer? And them I'll kill you with a hammer... then Max Barry can kill me with a hammer... then Colodia can kill Max Barry with a hammer... then the whole world can go blind

Thats crap. I grew up poor as hell.(I don't mean no nice sneakers poor , I mean no new sneakers for to 2 or 3 years poor) I have NEVER stolen anything from ANYONE. Ya know why? I have morals.

Good for you. Let me clarifly, I was not saying that everone who grows up poor is a criminal. I am saying that if a criminal finds life as a poor person to be lacking, then makes a lot of money being a criminal, is caught, serves time and is thrown back onto the street as a poor person and finds that life to be lacking, what is the next logical step?

I pay for people who deserve it to go to school. Not people who are gonna go to school, and then get out of prison and just steal another car, or rape another woman.

If a criminal completes a high-school diploma in prision that they already didn't have only one in fifteen will serve a second sentance. If a criminal completes a collage degree they almost never commit another crime. I think they "deserve" it


You say that like it's a priviledge to be free. It's not. It's a right. And I could buy something a whole lot sweeter if I wasnt paying for bubba to read law books all day so he could figure out how to get away with crime.


Damn straight. It's a right criminals don't have. No amount of cable TV, sugar or hot meals is going to make up for it. Sometimes we have to take these hits now so we don't have to make them later. Believe me, you'll have a lot more money if Bubba gets a law degree and you don't have to pay for 3 hot meals a day for seven to twelve


It isnt meant as a deterrent. It's in place so that repeat offenders who cant behave are no longer in a position to rape my wife, stael my car, or kill my friends.

If it isn't a deterrent, why do you want it to be hell? You're contradicting yourself


Never been to prison, but I can imagine it sucks. But that doesn't mean we should coddle them so it doesn't suck so bad for them

So maybe we should coddle them so they don't re-offend. Isn't that a better idea?

Maybe you should kill him with a hammer? And them I'll kill you with a hammer... then Max Barry can kill me with a hammer... then Colodia can kill Max Barry with a hammer... then the whole world can go blind
Denying someone surgery that isn't life threatening is hardly murder. Also, executing a criminal is hardly an executable offence.
Finally, the world wouldn't go blind, we'd just be reduced to one lone survivor. Unless he had schizophrenia, then his personalities would kill each other and we would all lose.

Maybe you should kill him with a hammer? And them I'll kill you with a hammer... then Max Barry can kill me with a hammer... then Colodia can kill Max Barry with a hammer... then the whole world can go blind
Oh look. Heres you! (http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/artfuldodger.htm)

Oh look. Heres you! (http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/artfuldodger.htm)

That's an excellent site.

That's an excellent site.
Somebody posted one of those earlier, and I went through and checked them out. And I have to admit, I saw myself a couple times! lol To be honest, it almost made me feel silly for posting here in the first place, it was so dead on. But you know how it is, once the addiction takes hold, theres no shaking it.:D

Somebody posted one of those earlier, and I went through and checked them out. And I have to admit, I saw myself a couple times! lol To be honest, it almost made me feel silly for posting here in the first place, it was so dead on. But you know how it is, once the addiction takes hold, theres no shaking it.:D

I can't help but match certain NS'ers to them:p

I can't help but match certain NS'ers to them:p
Oh, most definately! You can tell me which one you think I am. It won't hurt my feelings, I promise!

Oh look. Heres you! (http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/artfuldodger.htm)
I think it's very on topic. You're previous post intigated you seem to think we throw away people's right when they go to prison and they are there to be punished. Which got me thinking, if only we could punish with equal force. That would surely make you happy. But then I thought? Who would punish us?

Seriously though, going to prison voids your Right to Freedom and ergo your Right to Privacy. It does not however violate your biological right to live in the correct gender.

Oh, most definately! You can tell me which one you think I am. It won't hurt my feelings, I promise!

http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/rottweilerpuppy.htm

http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/rottweilerpuppy.htm
Well, thank you! Would you like to be my "steadfast and formidable ally"?:D

Well, thank you! Would you like to be my "steadfast and formidable ally"?:D

Why not. I can always hideously backstab you if need be. Muahahahahahah... ahem. You don't hold any crazily extreme opinions do you?

Well, if it is something that will never be essential for survival, then yes.
This loser somehow made it for decades without spontaneously combusting because she was in the wrong gender. If someone really hates the shape of their nose, should they get a free nose job? What about a woman who has always felt that her boobs should be bigger? What if she felt that a reduction was required for herr to tie her shoes properly?In all of these cases, yes, they should get free surgery if their physical condition is the cause of psychological trauma. Just because it won't physically disable you, doesn't mean it's not surgery essential to your well-being. And if my breasts got so large that I couldn't tie my shoes, then yes, I would consider a reduction to be essential surgery.

OMFGZ!!11! 1F 1 D0N7 G3T T3H V4G1N4 1 W1LL D13!!1!11!!!!
Get over your gender politics and join the rest of us in the real world every once in awhile. This woman is a murder! How much oxygen is her victim enjoying as of the moment?
Not that it matters, no! COME ON DOWN TO CANADA EVERYONE! Give us your sickos, your murderers, your rapists, and your pyschotics! Kill a hooker, win free surgery. Kill 5 and you get a pony. Burn a convent to the ground and get a FUCKING PARADE!I'll ignore your hyperbole and address the point that I think you were trying to make.
First off, we only give free health care to our own citizens, and that is as it should be. If it's our society that made the "psychos", then they are our responsibility. Countries that mistreat their criminals are the ones who should be ashamed.

I think it's very on topic. You're previous post intigated you seem to think we throw away people's right when they go to prison and they are there to be punished. Which got me thinking, if only we could punish with equal force. That would surely make you happy. But then I thought? Who would punish us?

Seriously though, going to prison voids your Right to Freedom and ergo your Right to Privacy. It does not however violate your biological right to live in the correct gender.
You are correct! My previous post said exactly that! When you go to prison, you lose your rights and get punished. Thats why it called prison, and not Disneyland, after all!


Maybe you should kill him with a hammer? And them I'll kill you with a hammer... then Max Barry can kill me with a hammer... then Colodia can kill Max Barry with a hammer... then the whole world can go blind
As for this, I can't even begin to fathom how this is on topic. What does getting in a hammer fight with you and Max Berry (as far as I know, none of us have broken ANY laws, much less killed someone) have to do with a prisoners right to expensive sex change operations and punishing murderers?

And as for violating someones "biological right to live in the correct gender", The correct gender of a person is subjective. (in other words, show me 50 people who believe he's a guy, I'll show you 50 who believe she's a girl) Besides, where do we draw the line? Should we give women who think they are ugly plastic surgery? Botox? We should probably let all the inmates have sex too, since it's a biological thing, right?

Why not. I can always hideously backstab you if need be. Muahahahahahah... ahem. You don't hold any crazily extreme opinions do you?
Well, I believe in genocide as a form of diplomacy, I hate women, blacks, jews, midgets, orphans, kittens, sunshine, and candy. No, I guess not.

In all of these cases, yes, they should get free surgery if their physical condition is the cause of psychological trauma. Just because it won't physically disable you, doesn't mean it's not surgery essential to your well-being. And if my breasts got so large that I couldn't tie my shoes, then yes, I would consider a reduction to be essential surgery.
.
The mental well being of a murderer is about as important as the well being of a cow pattie. They kill people. They end the lives of humans. They destroy familys. They don't like their nose? AAAAWWWWWWWWWWW Poor fucking babys! Maybe we should give them the option of botox and facelifts too? How about peticures! You have your priorities really screwed up!


[

The mental well being of a murderer is about as important as the well being of a cow pattie. They kill people. They end the lives of humans. They destroy familys. They don't like their nose? AAAAWWWWWWWWWWW Poor fucking babys! Maybe we should give them the option of botox and facelifts too? How about peticures! You have your priorities really screwed up!


[The mental well-being of criminals is not important? It costs $100 000 a year to keep someone in maximum security, and they will continue to cost tax payers for the rest of their natural lives if they are never rehabilitated. If they committed a crime because they have some mental illness (such as depression brought on by being born in the wrong body), and one surgery may help to rehabilitate them, then the cost of said surgery cannot compare to the money that they will cost us if they are never fit to re-entre society.
If I thought that botox would help to rehabilitate a dangerous criminal, I'd pay for it out of my own pocket. Though sex change surgery is a much more complex and expensive procedure, it's cost is still insignificant if you compare it to the cost of a lifetime of lock-up.

And as for violating someones "biological right to live in the correct gender", The correct gender of a person is subjective. (in other words, show me 50 people who believe he's a guy, I'll show you 50 who believe she's a girl)All that matters is what that person considers their true sex to be. If a person's conviction that they are in the wrong body is the cause of mental illness that might have been a contributing factor to their violent urges, then we should provide sex-change operations. This is not about being nice to the rapists/murders/etc.
It is fiscally sound policy. "Pay now, save later". The price of the surgery is nothing compared to what we stand to save by rehabilitating our criminals.

The mental well-being of criminals is not important? It costs $100 000 a year to keep someone in maximum security, and they will continue to cost tax payers for the rest of their natural lives if they are never rehabilitated. If they committed a crime because they have some mental illness (such as depression brought on by being born in the wrong body), and one surgery may help to rehabilitate them, then the cost of said surgery cannot compare to the money that they will cost us if they are never fit to re-entre society.
If I thought that botox would help to rehabilitate a dangerous criminal, I'd pay for it out of my own pocket. Though sex change surgery is a much more complex and expensive procedure, it's cost is still insignificant if you compare it to the cost of a lifetime of lock-up.
Well, since were on the subject of cost analisys, how much does 50,000 volts for apprx. 1 minute cost?

Well, since were on the subject of cost analisys, how much does 50,000 volts for apprx. 1 minute cost?

Erm, this is Canada. An Eye for an Eye and everyone goes blind.

Well, since were on the subject of cost analisys, how much does 50,000 volts for apprx. 1 minute cost?I'd also save money if I stopped paying for things and just started taking them, but I think that we've already established that stealing is immoral.
I could make/save a lot of money by doing a lot of immoral things. It's simply not an option.
Up here in Canada, we don't support murder, state sanctioned or otherwise.

The death penalty, in certain circumstances, is a good idea. And this is plainly one of them.

The only real objection to it that I have heard is that it is racist. But that can easily be fixed by executing more white people.

Erm, this is Canada. An Eye for an Eye and everyone goes blind.
I hate that quote. It's so simple it's stupid. It's not "an eye for an eye", It's "if you commit murder, we will take your life, so that you can never do it again."

How about this one 'hate breeds hate.'

Also, I agree with Oxwana if we can help rehabilitate prisoners, which is hard to do, then it helps society and the tax payer. This person is sexually mixed up, he/she killed a transsexual and now wants a sex change. This is very similar to the murders of gays, people do it out of fear and insecurity with themselves. Society can help them feel better about themselves and transsexuals and gays will not need to live in fear.

How about this one 'hate breeds hate.'

Also, I agree with Oxwana if we can help rehabilitate prisoners, which is hard to do, then it helps society and the tax payer. This person is sexually mixed up, he/she killed a transsexual and now wants a sex change. This is very similar to the murders of gays, people do it out of fear and insecurity with themselves. Society can help them feel better about themselves and transsexuals and gays will not need to live in fear.
Uhm, wouldn't pandering to the demands of someone who killed a transvestite ADD to the fear that gays have in society? And personally, being sexually mixed up is no excuse for murder. If it was, all kids that go through puberty would be slaughtering people by the dozens. And since when is it ok to kill a gay? FOR ANY REASON?

And I never said I hated the guy/girl that killed the transvstite. I believe in the death penalty because it rids society of murderers, not because I hate people.

This was for arguments sake is a transvestite killing a transvestite. I'd argue that people who murder or hate gays are confused with their own sexuality and hate themselves for it. There should be no need to hate your sexuality if it doesn't hurt anyone. Murder is never okay.

This person will have life imprisonment, they shouldn't be hurting anyone else outside jail. If it is about taxes i'd prefer giving them hard labour instead, where they could still contribute.

. If it is about taxes i'd prefer giving them hard labour instead, where they could still contribute.
I would have no problem with that at all! BUT, the liberal "geniuses" got hard labor outlawed so the poor criminals didn't have to work too hard.

hey that's what happens when they have a rich neighbor who provides defense for them. It allows them to spend money on useless junk that benefits no one.

hey that's what happens when they have a rich neighbor who provides defense for them. It allows them to spend money on useless junk that benefits no one.
How true!

How about this one 'hate breeds hate.'

Also, I agree with Oxwana if we can help rehabilitate prisoners, which is hard to do, then it helps society and the tax payer. This person is sexually mixed up, he/she killed a transsexual and now wants a sex change. This is very similar to the murders of gays, people do it out of fear and insecurity with themselves. Society can help them feel better about themselves and transsexuals and gays will not need to live in fear.

Let me get this straight - you want to "rehabilitate" a prisoner who is serving what essentially amounts to a life sentence for murder?

I'd rather spend 65 cents on a rifle cartridge and be done with it.

The mental well-being of criminals is not important? It costs $100 000 a year to keep someone in maximum security, and they will continue to cost tax payers for the rest of their natural lives if they are never rehabilitated. If they committed a crime because they have some mental illness (such as depression brought on by being born in the wrong body), and one surgery may help to rehabilitate them, then the cost of said surgery cannot compare to the money that they will cost us if they are never fit to re-entre society.
If I thought that botox would help to rehabilitate a dangerous criminal, I'd pay for it out of my own pocket. Though sex change surgery is a much more complex and expensive procedure, it's cost is still insignificant if you compare it to the cost of a lifetime of lock-up.
You assume they are mentally ill and not just mentally retarded

I would agree that they do pay for the treatment of other psychological problems. However that treatment involves medication not operations. Granted that this particular problem does involve an operation as one of the treatments there are other alternatives. So the issue is wheter or not this patient could have been treated in an alternative fashion with the same respect.
Well, the experts who treated her obviously thought that reassignment was the appropriate treatment. If they had said otherwise she wouldn't have got surgery. They're experts, they know what they're doing, and they judged she required the reassignment. So, in this case, I would say that the reassignment was necessary.



I would agree that deep depression can be lifethreatening. So the operation would be relevant if there was no alternative treatment.
We are in agreement on this, at least :)

I won't because obviously, to you, murderers deserve more than the average joe who doesn't have health insurance.
I live in the UK, the National Health Service is a wonderful thing.

Goodnight. Have a good sleep. :fluffle:
Thanks :)

WOW! :confused:

Are all Canadians crazy or is it just me?

Nope, not crazy, just the most free country in North America. :)

The death penalty, in certain circumstances, is a good idea. And this is plainly one of them.
"It's wrong to kill people so we're going to have to kill you because you killed someone"

Makes sense?

Not in a million years.

The only real objection to it that I have heard is that it is racist. But that can easily be fixed by executing more white people.
That can not possibly the only objection you have heard.

"It's wrong to kill people so we're going to have to kill you because you killed someone"

Makes sense?

Not in a million years.

That can not possibly the only objection you have heard.

No, I think it goes like this.

"You have not only killed someone, but you have demonstrated unequivocally that you are a danger to others in the future - you have no control over your own urges to violence. Therefore, to ensure that it doesn't happen again, and to make that insurance the least possible cost to others who are not willing to pay for your mistake, we're going to hang you with a reusable rope."

Makes perfect sense then. Not retribution, not deterrence. Just insurance.

No, I think it goes like this.

"You have not only killed someone, but you have demonstrated unequivocally that you are a danger to others in the future - you have no control over your own urges to violence. Therefore, to ensure that it doesn't happen again, and to make that insurance the least possible cost to others who are not willing to pay for your mistake, we're going to hang you with a reusable rope."

Makes perfect sense then. Not retribution, not deterrence. Just insurance.
Well I don't agree with that at all.

Let me get this straight - you want to "rehabilitate" a prisoner who is serving what essentially amounts to a life sentence for murder?

I'd rather spend 65 cents on a rifle cartridge and be done with it.

Creates an intresting problem if they're found innocent on appeal...

Creates an intresting problem if they're found innocent on appeal...

That's why you wait until appeals are exhausted.

That's why you wait until appeals are exhausted.

Appeals are never totally exhausted. New evidence comes to light all the time with advances in technology.

Appeals are never totally exhausted. New evidence comes to light all the time with advances in technology.

Hardly.

Let's take the recent case in Virginia of a young man who shot a Virginia State Trooper to death.

His actions (and the actions of the trooper) were caught on video.

The trooper, after being shot three times managed to return fire and wound the young man in the leg - blood from that wound was found next to the trooper and it matched the young man's DNA.

It's rather hard to come up with evidence that contradicts a video tape that clearly shows the young man turning back and firing two more shots - into the trooper's head.

Blood matching the scene.

The gun was found with the young man when he was arrested later. Ballistic match was perfect.

You're telling me that he should have an endless time to appeal?

BTW, we've already executed the young man for capital murder.

Hardly.

Let's take the recent case in Virginia of a young man who shot a Virginia State Trooper to death.

His actions (and the actions of the trooper) were caught on video.

The trooper, after being shot three times managed to return fire and wound the young man in the leg - blood from that wound was found next to the trooper and it matched the young man's DNA.

It's rather hard to come up with evidence that contradicts a video tape that clearly shows the young man turning back and firing two more shots - into the trooper's head.

Blood matching the scene.

The gun was found with the young man when he was arrested later. Ballistic match was perfect.

You're telling me that he should have an endless time to appeal?

BTW, we've already executed the young man for capital murder.

Oh, We're talking specific rather than generalities. Ok in this case it'e preety obvious that the guy did it. And deserves to fry. However he got exactly the same guilty verdict that say, the birmingham six got. How is it possible to to balance the punishment for both of these? There's only guilty and not guilty options. There is no "possibly guilty" and "definatly guilty"