NationStates Jolt Archive

feeling a tad devil-may-care tonight... well? stupid, ill-educated, or what? :D

it seems to me many creationists simply don't understand the science involved in evolutionary theory. i wonder, if they did, would they convert?


and sorry for yet another creationism vs science thread, its just that the whole arguement interests me. we don't have it over here (in fact 90% of our population couldn't give a shit about religion either way), and that makes it all the more fun :P


edit: i apologise if the title of my thread has offended anyone - that was not my intention. i was just trying to be humourous/edgy. if you have been offended by my thread title, please, uh, write me a letter or something - or send me an email with the subject: political correctness is just great ;)

it seems to me many creationists simply don't understand the science involved in evolutionary theory.
Good to know I'm not the only one.

i wonder, if they did, would they convert?
If they truly understood, yes, I think so. But if you tried to help them understand, they wouldn't listen.

Indoctrinated.

By parents, by government, and by the church. The only resistance to all this is underpaid teachers who one the whole couldn't give a damn what happens to these idiot kids so long as they eat tonight.

in fact 90% of our population couldn't give a shit about religion either way

Yeah, that makes me one of the 10%.

Would they convert? No, for not only is evolution not a religion, they'd pin it on God anyway.

PM: Neither. They're simply indoctrinated to believe that it and it alone is true. It's been grounded into them since they were very young. They won't accept anything different. That's why it's our mission to kill all the creationists off so they won't pass the creationist genetic material to their kids. ;)

Just kidding. But the rest of my post stands.

"are creationists just lacking education or are they actually stupid?"

Some of them are one or the other ... or both! But most of them are just downright stubbornly clinging to what they think they know because it's comfortable for them.

I have never been able to understand why anyone would think it necessary to believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis in order to defend their faith. There is absolutely no reason to do so. Just because Genesis is an allegory does not invalidate the teachings of the Bible.

I'd like you to prove evolution before I make my ideas known

also isn't this a tad on the flamy side

I'd like you to prove evolution before I make my ideas known

also isn't this a tad on the flamy side

*sigh*

*sigh*
yup

I'd like you to prove evolution before I make my ideas known

also isn't this a tad on the flamy side
It has been proven to the satisfaction of anyone who knows anything at all about the scientific method, and no, this thread is not on the "flamy side."

I'd like you to prove evolution before I make my ideas known

You don't "prove" theories, you provide evidence - and then the one with the best evidence is the closest to the truth.

As a biology student who also happens to be a creationist, I've studied evolutionary theory quite a bit. Call me closed-minded or indoctrinated or whatever you want, but I still don't believe that evolution is how we got here. I see the principles of population genetics at work (natural selection and the like), and I think that evolution is a pretty good theory with explanatory value. That doesn't mean, however, that I have to believe it. Anyone is free to believe whatever they wish about the origins of life as far as I'm concerned, and I believe that the universe was created by the god of the Bible. You don't have to, but I do.

I wouldn't really describe myself as ill-educated, stupid, close-minded, or indoctrinated, but rather as the free-thinker that everyone seems to venerate these days. I've studied Christianity and I've studied biology and I've formed my own conclusion.

I also believe that it doesn't really matter how we got here because we can't do anything about that--it's in the past. What matters is that we're here and have choices to make. Will I live my life accepting that God exists, or will I subscribe to an atheistic worldview? If I accept that God exists, will I try to live my life by his standards or by my own? Regardless of that, will I live my life just for me, or will I try and help others along the way? For me, these are much more important questions than "Was I created or did I evolve?"

I'd like you to prove evolution before I make my ideas known

also isn't this a tad on the flamy side

Why? Usually the people who make that statement would never accept it anyway......

it seems to me many creationists simply don't understand the science involved in evolutionary theory. i wonder, if they did, would they convert?

Eeerrrmm.. most people *period* do not understand the science involved in evolutionary theory. Atheists, Christians, Nobel prize winning physicists, Garbage collectors etc. Biology is a science - and contrary to popular belief science does not have to be "simple" or "easily understood". Not even by people who are brilliant in other fields.

That however is part of the reason religion is so popular: it offers simple explanations for many things that people can pretend to understand.
Of course, it does so by creating even bigger questions (the existence of "God" is more unlikely than humanity being the result a chain filled with random events) - but most people refuse to think that far.

It has been proven to the satisfaction of anyone who knows anything at all about the scientific method, and no, this thread is not on the "flamy side."
You're right, it's not. It's on the trolly side.

Really, people! *sighs*

feeling a tad devil-may-care tonight... well? stupid, ill-educated, or what? :D

it seems to me many creationists simply don't understand the science involved in evolutionary theory. i wonder, if they did, would they convert?

and sorry for yet another creationism vs science thread, its just that the whole arguement interests me. we don't have it over here (in fact 90% of our population couldn't give a shit about religion either way), and that makes it all the more fun :P

Personally, I think it is education where the fault lies. But I don't thinjk it is just the schools - its the whole of US society.

As an outsider (UK) and as someone who has been involved in science for over 40 years, it never ceases to amaze me how big an influance the church has in american life. I remember well hanging my head in shame when Frank Borman. the Commander of Apollo 8, Command Module Pilot James Lovell and Lunar Module Pilot William Anders each read a section of Genesis (1:1-10) the story of creation. Here we had the first human beings to orbit another body reading a FAIRY STORY!!!

To insinuate that all creationists are stupid is very shortsighted.

The Church of Atheism strikes again.

To insinuate that all creationists are stupid is very shortsighted.

The Church of Atheism strikes again.

LOL! Indoctrinated bullshittery!

To insinuate that all creationists are stupid is very shortsighted.

The Church of Atheism strikes again.

Then again, typing "the average" in every sentence would get boring.

It's what happens when children are brought up to accept a set of ideas unquestioningly. It is not a lack of education, but education in a particular direction, towards ignorance of incompatible ideas.

Also to some people who have a big ego, and are predisposed to narrow-mindedness, who then suffer a crisis. For example, recovering alcoholics replacing their addiction with a belief in a particularly strict religious doctrine.

Me, I was not brought up to believe anything, one way or the other, and I ended up an atheist through my own development. Looking at my friends, religious belief is something that has to be taught from birth, not one has become religious having been left to his/her own devices.

It has been proven to the satisfaction of anyone who knows anything at all about the scientific method, and no, this thread is not on the "flamy side."

ok show me some evidence (you can't unless you have been video taping a species for a few million years)

also why is the title creationists? (hint: they call it Intelligent design)

I'd like you to prove evolution before I make my ideas known


This is the attitude that just irritates me to no end. I mean, here they are, demanding that evolution must be PROVEN for them to consider it. When we freely acknowledge that evolution is only a theory, which just happens to have tons of evidence supporting it.

Meanwhile, their beliefs have NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER, just a book written by men with no scientific background whom they claim to be writing the literal word of God.

To insinuate that all creationists are stupid is very shortsighted.

The Church of Atheism strikes again.
No, no, you've got it all wrong. It's the Cult of Atheism. A church has a "good" connotation. ;)
:rolleyes:

ok show me some evidence (you can't unless you have been video taping a species for a few million years)

also why is the title creationists? (hint: they call it Intelligent design)
Intelligent design is creationism in six syllables... :rolleyes:

Creationists, for the most part, are victims of cynical manipulation and the logical consequence of multiculturalism.

Though all this taking them seriously probably hasn't helped either.

This is the attitude that just irritates me to no end. I mean, here they are, demanding that evolution must be PROVEN for them to consider it. When we freely acknowledge that evolution is only a theory, which just happens to have tons of evidence supporting it.

Meanwhile, their beliefs have NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER, just a book written by men with no scientific background whom they claim to be writing the literal word of God.

QFT, you summed my viewpoint up exactly.

It's what happens when children are brought up to accept a set of ideas unquestioningly. It is not a lack of education, but education in a particular direction, towards ignorance of incompatible ideas.

Also to some people who have a big ego, and are predisposed to narrow-mindedness, who then suffer a crisis. For example, recovering alcoholics replacing their addiction with a belief in a particularly strict religious doctrine.

Me, I was not brought up to believe anything, one way or the other, and I ended up an atheist through my own development. Looking at my friends, religious belief is something that has to be taught from birth, not one has become religious having been left to his/her own devices.

Same here, man.

I'd like you to prove evolution before I make my ideas known

also isn't this a tad on the flamy side
By saying that, you've already made your ideas known.

In your insignificant existence and with your limited knowledge, the best you can hope to accomplish is explaining the world around you. With that being said, everything is relative. Complete belief in anything is illogical. God can't be proven or disproven, so the simple solution would be to dismiss the subject entirely and get on with your lives. This goes for both theists and atheists.

Accept agnosticism and move on. Or continue your petty squabbling.

Olara']As a biology student who also happens to be a creationist, I've studied evolutionary theory quite a bit. Call me closed-minded or indoctrinated or whatever you want, but I still don't believe that evolution is how we got here. I see the principles of population genetics at work (natural selection and the like), and I think that evolution is a pretty good theory with explanatory value. That doesn't mean, however, that I have to believe it. Anyone is free to believe whatever they wish about the origins of life as far as I'm concerned, and I believe that the universe was created by the god of the Bible. You don't have to, but I do.

One thing you clearly are not is a biology student. Students learn - you haven't.

Accept agnosticism

How about no.

I'd like you to prove evolution before I make my ideas known

You do realise that by asking someone to prove a scientific theory like evolution, you are demonstrating a fundamental lack of understanding of how science works ?

What scientists do is testing theories and trying to disprove them. Despite thousands (if not millions) of tests evolutionary theory still stands. It gets modified with new insights, but the basis has shown itself to be pretty solid.
In other words: sofar noone has been able to prove evolution wrong while many, many,many, MANY people have tried.

Some will now try to claim the same is true for religion, but that is a false comparision. Noone has been able to disprove God because there is no way to actually demonstrate conclusively he doesn't exist. But noone has been able to prove evolution is wrong despite plenty of tests.

The difference is quite fundamental.

Eeerrrmm.. most people *period* do not understand the science involved in evolutionary theory. Atheists, Christians, Nobel prize winning physicists, Garbage collectors etc. Biology is a science - and contrary to popular belief science does not have to be "simple" or "easily understood". Not even by people who are brilliant in other fields.

well maybe not an understanding of all the compexities of all the many theories that combine to make up evolution, no.... but many people (maybe not most) have enough of a grasp of the science of evolution to make it both understandable and believeable. it depends on what level of scientific knowledge you're talking about of course.

but then it may be different here in the UK. science is high up the adgenda in (the majority of) our schools, generally. it certainly was in mine. so from studying enough biology, chemistry and physics, and putting it all together (and having a friend who's on his way to a masters in genetics), i can honestly say i know enough of the theories to convince me its the truth (or as near as we can get to it for now). it also helps that there are (or were before we got inundated with bloody reality shows) plenty of documentarties on the subject (Q.E.D., Horizon, prof winston, etc)... maybe thats why you americans claim our TV is so boring all the time - its educational once you've spent 15 years of your life watching at least a documentary about science (often focusing on biology) every week :p
and these are more 'heavy-hitting' in general compared to the average discovery channel documentary i've watched, too... though just as sodding slow ;)


You're right, it's not. It's on the trolly side.

never! the thread has a suggestive title is all... not offensive in any way :P

This is the attitude that just irritates me to no end. I mean, here they are, demanding that evolution must be PROVEN for them to consider it. When we freely acknowledge that evolution is only a theory, which just happens to have tons of evidence supporting it.

Meanwhile, their beliefs have NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER, just a book written by men with no scientific background whom they claim to be writing the literal word of God.

who says I believe it? I'm looking at this from all the viewpoints

so all theory's must be accepted remember people have different views? and your saying that the bible has absolutely no evidence? I don’t think I have to remind you of what happened last time people were ridiculed for not following a popular belief (dark ages)

Me, I was not brought up to believe anything, one way or the other, and I ended up an atheist through my own development. Looking at my friends, religious belief is something that has to be taught from birth, not one has become religious having been left to his/her own devices.

Funny, I'm proof of the opposite.

By saying that, you've already made your ideas known.

No, he hasn't. Though it can be assumed he is against evolution and believes in a higher power due to his request, commonly asked by theists.

I'd like you to prove evolution before I make my ideas known

also isn't this a tad on the flamy side

Why? Why must we Evolutionists prove our theory before the Creationists prove their fairy tale?

And don't talk to us about rule-breaking; you break rules every time you post.

Your sig is 12 lines long, 50% above the maximum allowed. (I.E 8)

How about no.

Then continue your petty squabbling.

I don’t think I have to remind you of what happened last time people were ridiculed for not following a popular belief (dark ages)

...Creationism of some sort still being the globablly-popular belief.

never! the thread has a suggestive title is all... not offensive in any way :P
Offensive titles have gotten people booted before, FYI.

One thing you clearly are not is a biology student. Students learn - you haven't.
Ouch. That hurts. And besides, isn't that a little like saying that one cannot be a student of Christianity (or Islam, or Buddhism, or auto mechanics) without being a Christian or a Muslim or a Buddhist or a mechanic? If that's the case, then why are there so many students in religion departments who don't believe in any of the faiths they study? Are we to tell them that since they are atheists or agnostics that they aren't students of religion?

And I have learned about evolution. I can explain the Modern Synthesis theory to you quite well. I just don't believe that humans evolved. As I've said, that is just a personal belief of mine. You don't have to share my view. But please don't imply that just because I am not an evolutionist that I haven't learned about evolution.

In your insignificant existence and with your limited knowledge, the best you can hope to accomplish is explaining the world around you. With that being said, everything is relative. Complete belief in anything is illogical. God can't be proven or disproven, so the simple solution would be to dismiss the subject entirely and get on with your lives. This goes for both theists and atheists.

Accept agnosticism and move on. Or continue your petty squabbling.
I simply can't resist pointing out that you are in fact an atheist. A funny, confused atheist, but an atheist none the less.

And you'll remain one untill the day you take to worthshipping divinity.

Sometimes I suspect Americans really aren't all that religious, but that our religious minorities are just more vocal and politically active than in many other countries. So, why then would the majority allow themselves to be ruled the minority this way? I notice that American religiosity tends to be big on implying that we are rulers of the earth -- Manifest Destiny, god made it all for man to use, we're made in god's image (by which we mean white males), all that Calvinist crap that's been used to justify all kinds of social inequalities and abuses of resources throughout our history. American religion suffers from ego-trip-itis something fierce. That's my opinion.

Then continue your petty squabbling.

Yes, I shall.

each read a section of Genesis (1:1-10) the story of creation. Here we had the first human beings to orbit another body reading a FAIRY STORY!!!
:p ridiculous :headbang:


hows this for an idea: once you understand (enough about) the science of reproduction - in all its different forms - and the role of genetics in it, you can easily understand evolutionary theory

and your saying that the bible has absolutely no evidence? Show me some evidence and I'll believe in it. Besides conjecture or ancient books.

I don’t think I have to remind you of what happened last time people were ridiculed for not following a popular belief (dark ages)
Most people around the world still believe in some kind of religion, and thus some kind of creation story. :rolleyes:

No, he hasn't. Though it can be assumed he is against evolution and believes in a higher power due to his request, commonly asked by theists.
Yes, he has, though not necessarily his religious ideas.

I simply can't resist pointing out that you are in fact an atheist. A funny, confused atheist, but an atheist none the less.

And you'll remain one untill the day you take to worthshipping divinity.

How can one who preaches Agnostic life be Atheist?

Olara']And besides, isn't that a little like saying that one cannot be a student of Christianity (or Islam, or Buddhism, or auto mechanics) without being a Christian or a Muslim or a Buddhist or a mechanic? If that's the case, then why are there so many students in religion departments who don't believe in any of the faiths they study? Are we to tell them that since they are atheists or agnostics that they aren't students of religion?

Just to let you know, I'm doing a Religious Studies class, and I'm Atheist. Thus proving this statement correct.

Still disagree with you on evolution, you know.

Offensive titles have gotten people booted before, FYI.
well its not intended to be offensive, just suggestive.

it all depends how sensitive you are

I simply can't resist pointing out that you are in fact an atheist. A funny, confused atheist, but an atheist none the less.

And you'll remain one untill the day you take to worthshipping divinity.
S/he could be agnostic, actually, or believe in the Cult of Czardas...wait. That is worshipping divinity. :headbang: :D

Why? Why must we Evolutionists prove our theory before the Creationists prove their fairy tale?

again with the creationist eh? well:

1) why is the universe so fine tuned for life to exist? The British cosmologist Fred Hoyle was the first to realise this is no coincidence. A very peculiar thing about the fundamental constants is that they appear to have exactly the right values. If they were slightly smaller or bigger, atoms, stars, planets and people simply wouldn’t exist!

2) ever heard of the phantom force which is a very very long way away from anything the big bang has made this is 3x everything ever!

And don't talk to us about rule-breaking; you break rules every time you post.

Your sig is 12 lines long, 50% above the maximum allowed. (I.E 8)

lets see calling everyone who believes in the theory of Intelligent design (and as everyone here seems to think creationism as well) ignorant idiots who don't know anything about science (that’s probly most of the planet) vs. a sig 4 lines too long
gee which is worse?

I simply can't resist pointing out that you are in fact an atheist. A funny, confused atheist, but an atheist none the less.

And you'll remain one untill the day you take to worthshipping divinity.

Nice try. I don't deny the existence of a higher power, but neither do I accept it. Atheists deny. Theists accept. Agnostics neither deny nor accept. Understand? If not, perhaps your definitions are different than mine.

<snip>I don’t think I have to remind you of what happened last time people were ridiculed for not following a popular belief (dark ages)
In the "dark ages," creationism was the popular belief and those who didn't follow it tended to be ridiculed by being tortured and/or burned to death. So, are you threatening something, or just not thinking before you speak?

well its not intended to be offensive, just suggestive.

it all depends how sensitive you are
Ah, I see. Just wondering. I've seen people get bombed for creating threads with similar titles, is all.

lets see calling everyone who believes in the theory of Intelligent design ignorant idiots who don't know anything about science
pfft get a sense of humour

Show me some evidence and I'll believe in it. Besides conjecture or ancient books.

remember the story of Noah’s ark? well the flood in that actually happened (albeit a tad exaggerated)

Most people around the world still believe in some kind of religion, and thus some kind of creation story. :rolleyes:

you can still ridicule a someone even if you don't have popular support

Just to let you know, I'm doing a Religious Studies class, and I'm Atheist. Thus proving this statement correct.

Still disagree with you on evolution, you know.
And that's fine; I'm not asking you to agree with me on evolution. My point was just that the statement that since I am a creationist I cannot be a student of biology is not true. As shown by your example.

In the "dark ages," creationism was the popular belief and those who didn't follow it tended to be ridiculed by being tortured and/or burned to death. So, are you threatening something, or just not thinking before you speak?

so you don't think calling everyone who thinks differently to you stupid is bad?

also if you found out Isaac Newton believed in creationism would you think differently of him? you might be in for a shock when you look at scientists though time

Sometimes I suspect Americans really aren't all that religious, but that our religious minorities are just more vocal and politically active than in many other countries. So, why then would the majority allow themselves to be ruled the minority this way? I notice that American religiosity tends to be big on implying that we are rulers of the earth -- Manifest Destiny, god made it all for man to use, we're made in god's image (by which we mean white males), all that Calvinist crap that's been used to justify all kinds of social inequalities and abuses of resources throughout our history. American religion suffers from ego-trip-itis something fierce. That's my opinion.

People in the US have a screwed up idea of what tollerance actually is and it has forced us to pay lip service to respecting the beliefs of others. This has put a chilling effect on the debate, because as a national entity, we are not allowed to say to vocal religious minorities: "LOL, you are silly!" and get on with our lives. This gives them a blush of legitimacy that they would not otherwise have, owing to the need to actually spend time addressing their "points" on the merits - which is pointless when you think about it, because it someone actually believes that New York City fire engines are blue, no amount of rational debate will change their mind.

(Actually, you can be tollerant without "respecting" anything, but damned if our politicians are going to point that out.)

again with the creationist eh? well:

1) why is the universe so fine tuned for life to exist? The British cosmologist Fred Hoyle was the first to realise this is no coincidence. A very peculiar thing about the fundamental constants is that they appear to have exactly the right values. If they were slightly smaller or bigger, atoms, stars, planets and people simply wouldn’t exist!

You're wrong there buddy. Life is fine tuned to exist in the Universe, the Universe isn't tuned for life.

It's a big game of chance if you will. Ever hear about the guy who rolled a dice 25 times, got a 6 each time and won a Jaguar?

2) ever heard of the phantom force which is a very very long way away from anything the big bang has made this is 3x everything ever!

No. Please, quote sources on this mysterious force. I'd be interested to hear about it. Seriously.

lets see calling everyone who believes in the theory of Intelligent design (and as everyone here seems to think creationism as well) ignorant idiots who don't know anything about science (that’s probly most of the planet) vs. a sig 4 lines too long
gee which is worse?

I didn't say Creationists/Intelligent Designists were idiots or ignorant about science. Just wrong.

And fix the damn sig lest the Mods bit you for it.

pfft get a sense of humour

its not funny when it offends someone's beliefs and this thread isn't funny

remember the story of Noah’s ark? well the flood in that actually happened (albeit a tad exaggerated)I actually knew that. And of course it obviously proves Creationism/Intelligent Design. :rolleyes:



you can still ridicule a someone even if you don't have popular support
LOL...wait....so people are ridiculed for not believing a popular theory, but you can still ridicule them even if your theory doesn't have popular support? You already said it was a popular theory. Then when you find out it isn't, you keep reiterating your argument stubbornly anyway, trying to think up a good reason to keep going against evolution. Lose-lose situation here, m'friend. :p

remember the story of Noah’s ark? well the flood in that actually happened (albeit a tad exaggerated)

Yeah, right. Any evidence?

IQ:156
National Merit Scholar
Attended Massachusetts Institute of Technology
California State University at Northridge
Pasadena Community College

Believes in God
Believes that the Bible is the Word of God
Believes that God created the entire space/time continuum and all its contents

Must be stupid

remember the story of Noah’s ark? well the flood in that actually happened (albeit a tad exaggerated)



you can still ridicule a someone even if you don't have popular support

The fact that some events in the bible have a natural historical basis (not to mention many other religions have a flood myth,) doesn't prove that the magical parts of the bible are true in any way.

For example, if a super tinfoil hat liberal blog correctly cites Bush's DUI, does that make an accusation that Bush raped and killed a black woman on the same blog correct?

Secondly, nothing in the theory of evolution states that God does not exist. It doesn't address the existance or non-existance of God at all. So if one says, "well I recognize the biological mechanics of evolution, but I still think god created/influenced things." then one believes in evolution but still holds their religious beliefs. To deny evolution at that point is simply self-protective mental gymnastics and nothing else.

So, believe in God or not as you wish, but don't let such belief blind you to the overwhelming evidence that supports the theory of evolution.

The information is out there. In many places it's couched in layman's terms to make it easy to comprehend. If you want to overthrow evolution, then find the evidence to overthrow it, instead of denying the evidence that's already out there.

IQ:156
National Merit Scholar
Attended Massachusetts Institute of Technology
California State University at Northridge
Pasadena Community College

Believes in God
Believes that the Bible is the Word of God
Believes that God created the entire space/time continuum and all its contents

Must be stupid
That's education, not intelligence... :D

(j/k)

What did you major in, btw? It seems not biology.

People in the US have a screwed up idea of what tollerance actually is and it has forced us to pay lip service to respecting the beliefs of others. This has put a chilling effect on the debate, because as a national entity, we are not allowed to say to vocal religious minorities: "LOL, you are silly!" and get on with our lives. This gives them a blush of legitimacy that they would not otherwise have, owing to the need to actually spend time addressing their "points" on the merits - which is pointless when you think about it, because it someone actually believes that New York City fire engines are blue, no amount of rational debate will change their mind.

(Actually, you can be tollerant without "respecting" anything, but damned if our politicians are going to point that out.)
Yes, I agree. The First Amendment guarantees the right to speak, not the right to be listened to. Everyone has the right to present their argument, but if the argument is dumb, it should be dismissed as such. "Thank you. Next!" Saying you believe god made the universe is not stupid. Saying religious beliefs should be taught as science *is* stupid, period, cope with it. You don't want your kids learning science? Homeschool the poor little twerps.

I support choice "b" with respect to those who want to bring "creation science" into the classroom. For regular believers, whatever their faith, no opinion.

its not funny when it offends someone's beliefs and this thread isn't funny
very well, edited the OP

looks like i've opened up yet another can of worms with this.... who'd have thought people's opinions would be so polarised? ;)
(this is what makes the topic so fun for an a-religious person :P )

Nice try. I don't deny the existence of a higher power, but neither do I accept it. Atheists deny. Theists accept. Agnostics neither deny nor accept. Understand? If not, perhaps your definitions are different than mine.
It was, wasn't it?

Atheism isn't denial, it's lack of acknowledgement. Seeing as that's exactly what you describe your current beliefs to be, you are an atheist, just like I am. And as I said, you'll continue to be one untill you actively acknowledge divinity.

Being agnostic about something doesn't have anything to do with how you actually respond to the question. It's an opinion on the question itself, not an answer or a non-answer.
You can, for example, be agnostic about the questions raised in this thread, even though you do act on whatever opinion you have. It's perfectly possible to be a creationist or evulutionist (or whatever you fancy), while being agnostic about the question.

Being agnostic about something means you don't think there is an objective answer to the question. It says fuck-all about your opinion. It doesn't even say whether you believe there probably is gods, but that you don't know what they want of you, if anything, and if they really are there.

So sure, you may be agnostic about the question. But that doesn't mean you're not currently an atheist.

People seem to be missing the fact that intelligence is not the same as common sense and lateral thinking...

IQ:156
National Merit Scholar
Attended Massachusetts Institute of Technology
California State University at Northridge
Pasadena Community College

Believes in God
Believes that the Bible is the Word of God
Believes that God created the entire space/time continuum and all its contents

Must be stupid
must be indoctrinated, or did you reach those religious conclusions all by yourself?

You're wrong there buddy. Life is fine tuned to exist in the Universe, the Universe isn't tuned for life.

It's a big game of chance if you will. Ever hear about the guy who rolled a dice 25 times, got a 6 each time and one a Jaguar?

you aren’t thinking big enough here think of rolling a dice infinitely and getting six every time


No. Please, quote sources on this mysterious force. I'd be interested to hear about it. Seriously.

here is where I first found this stuff: http://www.exitmundi.nl/exitmundi.htm (go to the "stop!" and "Rip!" scenario's)

phantom energy:

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20030308/fob3.asp
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3461
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_energy


I didn't say Creationists/Intelligent Designists were idiots or ignorant about science. Just wrong.

you didn't anyway

Yeah, right. Any evidence?
I've heard of evidence that shows a massive flood between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in biblical-era Mesopotamia, where the future writers of the Good Book were living, that leveled the city of Ur and killed a large number. No linky, because it was in an article from our history textbook :p

Also, the area that is now occupied by the Black Sea used to be dry land, until the Mediterranean rose and poured over the escarpment into the seafloor as it is today, creating a massive flood that would have covered cities, towns, forests, even hills and mountains (Muse magazine, 2003 IIRC). Both of these have been cited as possible models for the Biblical flood. In addition, China's Yellow River floods so often the Chinese flood myth might come from a particularly bad 'un.

feeling a tad devil-may-care tonight... well? stupid, ill-educated, or what? :D

it seems to me many creationists simply don't understand the science involved in evolutionary theory. i wonder, if they did, would they convert?


and sorry for yet another creationism vs science thread, its just that the whole arguement interests me. we don't have it over here (in fact 90% of our population couldn't give a shit about religion either way), and that makes it all the more fun :P


edit: i apologise if the title of my thread has offended anyone - that was not my intention. i was just trying to be humourous/edgy. if you have been offended by my thread title, please, uh, write me a letter or something - or send me an email with the subject: political correctness is just great ;)
Yes we understand the science. Some of us even agree with it. Yet I still mantain the beliefe that the world was created by a devine personage. But I do belive that evolution has happened since that time. We can watch it in its most rudimentary stages. Many creationists don't understand that evolution doesn't mean a frog turning into a bird, but means the frogs with the longer legs survive, and breed, and eventually, through so many such little things, a new species of the same animal is created, and through many of these small changes entirely different animals will eventually come about. I do not belive that the two thereos have to be completly mutaully exclusive.

Olara']
And I have learned about evolution. I can explain the Modern Synthesis theory to you quite well. I just don't believe that humans evolved. As I've said, that is just a personal belief of mine. You don't have to share my view. But please don't imply that just because I am not an evolutionist that I haven't learned about evolution.

All right. Curiosity. Where are you going to school?

Now if you "know" evolution; why don't you point out why it's wrong?

IQ:156
National Merit Scholar
Attended Massachusetts Institute of Technology
California State University at Northridge
Pasadena Community College

Believes in God
Believes that the Bible is the Word of God
Believes that God created the entire space/time continuum and all its contents

Must be stupid

Even smart people excercise denial.

Besides, it's perfectly okay to believe god created everything...just as long as you don't let that belief interfere with cold hard evidence...unless you really believe in a trickster god who puts mountains of information in the fossil record, DNA, geology, archaology, biological chemistry, etc...just to test our faith.

so you don't think calling everyone who thinks differently to you stupid is bad?

also if you found out Isaac Newton believed in creationism would you think differently of him? you might be in for a shock when you look at scientists though time
Answer my question, please. In the dark ages, people who didn't follow creationism and other religious teachings were tortured and killed. By bringing it up, you seem to be doing one of three things:

A) Implying that religious people are being treated the same way in the US now, which is ridiculous on its face, as having science and religion separated as different subjects in public schools is hardly the same as being brutally abused and executed; or

B) (Since I believe you have already implied that creationism is a popular belief in the US) implying that those who insist on evolution are bucking the popular trend and inviting reprisals, in which case I ask you -- are you threatening violence against non-believers?; or

C) Using the wrong analogy because you want to use the language of victimization whether it means anything in the context or not; i.e., not thinking before you speak.

Which is it?

you aren’t thinking big enough here think of rolling a dice infinitely and getting six every time

Every time I roll my dice there is a one-in-six chance of it being a six. This statistic does not change no matter how many times I roll it.


here is where I first found this stuff: http://www.exitmundi.nl/exitmundi.htm (go to the "stop!" and "Rip!" scenario's)

phantom energy:

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20030308/fob3.asp
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3461
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_energy

Interesting stuff. However, how does this prove the existence of God?

[I actually knew that. And of course it obviously proves Creationism/Intelligent Design. :rolleyes:

found a site for you http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/is_true.htm


LOL...wait....so people are ridiculed for not believing a popular theory, but you can still ridicule them even if your theory doesn't have popular support?

did everyone think Hitler getting rid of free speech was a good idea? nope

You already said it was a popular theory. Then when you find out it isn't, you keep reiterating your argument stubbornly anyway, trying to think up a good reason to keep going against evolution. Lose-lose situation here, m'friend. :p

creationism isn't a popular belief? Intelligent design isn't popular either? I'd like to see some charts to prove thist

Olara']I also believe that it doesn't really matter how we got here because we can't do anything about that--it's in the past. What matters is that we're here and have choices to make. Will I live my life accepting that God exists, or will I subscribe to an atheistic worldview? If I accept that God exists, will I try to live my life by his standards or by my own? Regardless of that, will I live my life just for me, or will I try and help others along the way? For me, these are much more important questions than "Was I created or did I evolve?"
I can agree with this portion of your post. :)

you aren’t thinking big enough here think of rolling a dice infinitely and getting six every time

Actually, the dice were rolled infinitely (just about) but a 6 only had to be rolled a tiny fraction of that. If evolution worked perfectly, as you suggest, there would be no genetic defects, and species would not have diverged (if the perfect mutation happened every time, there would be no differentiation.)




here is where I first found this stuff: http://www.exitmundi.nl/exitmundi.htm (go to the "stop!" and "Rip!" scenario's)

phantom energy:

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20030308/fob3.asp
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3461
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_energy




you didn't anyway

What the hell does any of that have to do with evolution? Mixing up astronomy/physiocs with evolution is yet another example of ignorance. Besides, in the words of Einstein (paraphrased) "I want to find out how God did it all." Einstein worked on science not to disprove god, but to get a clearer/truer idea of God himself. Only by seeking truth can one find God. The scientific method is the best way man has come up with yet to even approach truth.

found a site for you http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/is_true.htm

What a lovely, unbiased and impartial source.


did everyone think Hitler getting rid of free speech was a good idea? nope

Godwin! Godwin!

feeling a tad devil-may-care tonight... well? stupid, ill-educated, or what? :D

it seems to me many creationists simply don't understand the science involved in evolutionary theory. i wonder, if they did, would they convert?


and sorry for yet another creationism vs science thread, its just that the whole arguement interests me. we don't have it over here (in fact 90% of our population couldn't give a shit about religion either way), and that makes it all the more fun :P

I'm always amazed at the arrogance of people that think faith has no place in the world.

also if you found out Isaac Newton believed in creationism would you think differently of him? you might be in for a shock when you look at scientists though time
I know that Isaac Newton believed in god. So did Copernicus, Galileo, Einstein, Darwin, and many other science-minded types. Funny how that didn't stop them from developing science, though.

My issue isn't with religion. My issue is with religious people who not only reject science for themselves but also want to deny access to science to other people's kids in school.

For the record, I believe in lots of gods, just like Archimedes, Galen, Hippocrates, Ptolemy and other early scientists and proto-scientists. Yet, like them, I can still cope with reality. (If anyone out there happens to know of any animist or Hindu scientists currently working, I'd appreciate the info for future posts; I don't keep tabs on scientists' religions, as a rule.)

Every time I roll my dice there is a one-in-six chance of it being a six. This statistic does not change no matter how many times I roll it.

how can this be random chance? its far too lucky to be considered fact (its like saying every time something falls it falls down because of chance)

Interesting stuff. However, how does this prove the existence of God?

it is the best theory there is about what it is (mind you I think the theory front might be a bit stumped on this one)

Olara]
I also believe that it doesn't really matter how we got here because we can't do anything about that--it's in the past. What matters is that we're here and have choices to make. Will I live my life accepting that God exists, or will I subscribe to an atheistic worldview? If I accept that God exists, will I try to live my life by his standards or by my own? Regardless of that, will I live my life just for me, or will I try and help others along the way? For me, these are much more important questions than "Was I created or did I evolve?"

But the past informs the present. By seeing how things happened before, we get a much better idea of how they will progress. The choices we make should be informed by what has and hasn't worked in the past. Beisdes, evolutionary theory has aided many scientific pursuits that have had real results.

Denial of the truths of the past leads to tragedy...as has been proven too often.

If evolution worked perfectly, as you suggest, there would be no genetic defects, and species would not have diverged (if the perfect mutation happened every time, there would be no differentiation.)

Hah! I never said that, nor does most evolutionists!

We are evolving. We have not evolved until we can evolve no-more. Our race is constantly changing as we adapt to new enviroments.

And what you said actually works against ID: You accept there are "genetic defects" and our species has diverged. So lets re-word your quote a little:

"If The Designer worked perfectly, as you suggest, there would be no genetic defects, and species would not have diverged (if the perfect mutation happened every time, there would be no differentiation.)"

I'm always amazed at the arrogance of people that think faith has no place in the world.

If by 'faith' you mean belief in god(s) then yes, it has a place in the world - as something to study in history. Religion was right for our child-like ancestors, those simple minded folk who lacked the science to understand the universe.

Actually, the dice were rolled infinitely (just about) but a 6 only had to be rolled a tiny fraction of that. If evolution worked perfectly, as you suggest, there would be no genetic defects, and species would not have diverged (if the perfect mutation happened every time, there would be no differentiation.)

eh? you do know were talking physical constants here if any roll didn't get six life wouldn't be able to exist

What the hell does any of that have to do with evolution? Mixing up astronomy/physiocs with evolution is yet another example of ignorance. Besides, in the words of Einstein (paraphrased) "I want to find out how God did it all." Einstein worked on science not to disprove god, but to get a clearer/truer idea of God himself. Only by seeking truth can one find God. The scientific method is the best way man has come up with yet to even approach truth.

it crept in because people weren't distinguishing I.D and creationism

Godwin! Godwin!

Bastard! I wanted to say that! :D

Hah! I never said that, nor does most evolutionists!

We are evolving. We have not evolved until we can evolve no-more. Our race is constantly changing as we adapt to new enviroments.

And what you said actually works against ID: You accept there are "genetic defects" and our species has diverged. So lets re-word your quote a little:

"If The Designer worked perfectly, as you suggest, there would be no genetic defects, and species would not have diverged (if the perfect mutation happened every time, there would be no differentiation.)"
I don't get your argument. Are you for or against the scientific view? Because it seems like you've been arguing against science, but here you seem to be suggesting an imperfect god who makes mistakes, which seems to undermine creationism.

I'm always amazed at the arrogance of people that think faith has no place in the world.

I am always amazed at the arrogance of some people that think everybody has to practice their faith in the world.

Hah! I never said that, nor does most evolutionists!

We are evolving. We have not evolved until we can evolve no-more. Our race is constantly changing as we adapt to new enviroments.

And what you said actually works against ID: You accept there are "genetic defects" and our species has diverged. So lets re-word your quote a little:

"If The Designer worked perfectly, as you suggest, there would be no genetic defects, and species would not have diverged (if the perfect mutation happened every time, there would be no differentiation.)"

Dude, this was exactly the point I was making, dork, as you can see if you read what I said and in response to whom. :headbang:

how can this be random chance? its far too lucky to be considered fact (its like saying every time something falls it falls down because of chance)

So in other words, you cannot create something from nothing, therefore something had to be created from nothing in order to create everything using nothing? Cause that's what you seem to be saying...


it is the best theory there is about what it is (mind you I think the theory front might be a bit stumped on this one)

It's not even a theory.

Look at this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory#Science)

"a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations made that is predictive, testable, and has never been falsified."


It may be predictive, but it sure ain't testable.

(You used Wiki earleir, hence I assume it's allowable)

If by 'faith' you mean belief in god(s) then yes, it has a place in the world - as something to study in history. Religion was right for our child-like ancestors, those simple minded folk who lacked the science to understand the universe.

were aren’t that advanced you know I don't think we will ever know what made those atoms (well quarks, electrons and photons to be more precise)

it crept in because people weren't distinguishing I.D and creationism
I deliberately make no distinction because I frankly believe ID is just creationism in sheep's clothing. Trying to disguise the same argument under a different title because "creationism" fell so flat the last time it was proposed.

found a site for you http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/is_true.htm

Using the Bible to prove itself? What a good and useful idea.


did everyone think Hitler getting rid of free speech was a good idea? nope
What does that have to do with anything? You're bringing in random other ideas that have nothing to do with the debate. Explain.

creationism isn't a popular belief? Intelligent design isn't popular either? I'd like to see some charts to prove thist
They are popular. But you said that people are ridiculed for disbelieving in a popular theory. Creationism is a popular theory. So is evolution. Evolutionists ridicule Creationists because they just have no proof. Evolutionists have popular support, but Creationists have more popular support than Evolutionists. Do I need to spell this all out in small words? :rolleyes:

I deliberately make no distinction because I frankly believe ID is just creationism in sheep's clothing. Trying to disguise the same argument under a different title because "creationism" fell so flat the last time it was proposed.

Ditto.

So Call to Power. Do you know when the ID movement started? It's a tad older then you think......

I don't get your argument. Are you for or against the scientific view? Because it seems like you've been arguing against science, but here you seem to be suggesting an imperfect god who makes mistakes, which seems to undermine creationism.

Oh, I'm so for it. I'm arguing FOR science, and I was suggesting if there was a God (which I belive there wasn't) then he/she/it was flawed.

And how was I arguing against Science?

Dude, this was exactly the point I was making, dork, as you can see if you read what I said and in response to whom. :headbang:

Really, becasue I didn't spot this.

And there's no need for insults.

So in other words, you cannot create something from nothing, therefore something had to be created from nothing in order to create everything using nothing? Cause that's what you seem to be saying...

I'm just saying it can't be random chance that all the constants are right maybe the Maya were right and are universe goes in cycles with the end always creating a new beginning


It's not even a theory.

but you can't deny this had to be something from before the big bang (or whatever started are matter universe) and the only thing that was around then was maybe a God/s

I deliberately make no distinction because I frankly believe ID is just creationism in sheep's clothing. Trying to disguise the same argument under a different title because "creationism" fell so flat the last time it was proposed.
Intelligent Design is just creationism in six syllables, IMNSHO. It's like the difference between Catholicism and the early Anglican church.

Oh, I'm so for it. I'm arguing FOR science, and I was suggesting if there was a God (which I belive there wasn't) then he/she/it was flawed.

And how was I arguing against Science?

Perhaps your means of expression was just a bit too poetical. ;) :p

But cool, I'm on the same page with you now.

must be indoctrinated, or did you reach those religious conclusions all by yourself?

My family avoided the topics of religion and politics in our conversations, as well as family background questions.

Must have been indoctrinated by living in Christian USA. All those Christmas specials about Charlie Brown, Santa Claus, Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, etc.

Oh, and all those greetings of "Merry Christmas" must have helped, too.

Of course, when I was a child, I was dragged to Methodist and Baptist church every Sunday. I quit when I was 13, having withstood too many blatant demonstrations of hypocrisy.

Went without God or Bible reading for years, until I had a negative experience while attempting to have an Out-of-Body-Experience. Started praying and reading my Bible daily after that.

Found logical sensible Christian writers, such as C.S. Lewis and others, looked into the historical evidence, saw real-world consequences of both belief and unbelief, experienced those consequences as well, at 19 was baptised publicly, by my choice.

Still cannot get sensible logic on the evolution question. People are just too angry when confronted to do more than call names and call questioners' intelligence into question, and that will never persuade me of anything in the realm of science.

Spaghetti-monsterism is not a reasonable response, just a funny one.

Hoping to become more Christ-like someday. Still working on it. But I believe that He is the Truth. Don't hope to persuade anyone via posts and emails, though...

I believe that we don't have all the answers. And I believe that we have fewer sure answers than most are willing to admit publicly.

I'm just saying it can't be random chance that all the constants are right maybe the Maya were right and are universe goes in cycles with the end always creating a new beginning

It can be, you know. Just becasue something has a low probability doesn't means it's not impossible. And in the Universe, there was a lot of time and space for the right stuff to happen to make life possible.

but you can't deny this had to be something from before the big bang (or whatever started are matter universe) and the only thing that was around then was maybe a God/s

Again, "you cannot create something from nothing, therefore something had to be created from nothing in order to create everything using nothing."

If we can assume that God has no beginning, then we can also assume the chain reaction which started the Big Bang has no beginning.

but you can't deny this had to be nothing from before the big bang (or whatever started are matter universe) and the only thing that was around then was maybe a God/s

Actually, a lot of people do deny that there was something before the big bang, i.e. the space time continuum is not infinite. But I thought you were talking about evolution.

In any case, there is a general principle in science that if the answer to an inquiry is not imeadiately knowable, you are not allowed to postulate "AHA! it must be god what did it." Otherwise, all scientific inquiry would have stopped a long time ago.

Oh, Call to Power, you haven't answered my question -- the one with the 3 options, remember? If you don't want to answer it, fine, but I will then assume it was option C: the not-thinking-before-you-speak scenario. (I'm kind of thinking that anyway.)

Yeah, right. Any evidence?

Lots. The story of the flood is too widespread in the middle east to be just a made-up story, there has to have been something behind it.

Of course, the biblical version is tosh, but that is only one of dozens of versions.

All right. Curiosity. Where are you going to school?
I'm scheduled to graduate with a BA in Human Biology from the University of Kansas this December.
Now if you "know" evolution; why don't you point out why it's wrong?
I'm assuming that you'd like to know why I don't believe humans evolved. As I've said, I think evolution is a good theory with a lot of evidence supporting it. I think that it is a viable explanation for the origins and diversity of life. This is why I have no problem with people who subscribe to the theory.

That said, the events I've experienced in my life have led me to believe that the god of the Bible exists, that he loves me, and that he is great enough to create the universe in six days if he so chooses. It has also led me to believe that the Bible is the revealed word of God. I choose to interpret the creation account in Genesis literally. All the evidence I have at my disposal, and the interpretation i choose to take of the Bible, leads me to believe that the god of the Bible created the universe in six days, as told in Genesis.

Now, I don't expect you or anyone else to agree with the conclusions I've drawn. But as I've also said, I don't think it really matters what one believes about how the world and life got here. So I guess what I most desire is that both creationists and evolutionists would realize that there are people who hold beliefs different from their own and let them believe as they do without calling them stupid/ignorant/uneducated.

its not funny when it offends someone's beliefs and this thread isn't funny

If someone is not prepared to have their beliefs examined, and possible ridiculed, then they should not hold beliefs.

Where do I fall in if I believe that evolution was a tool of God? I don't doubt He could have simply created everything, but it is some comfort to see a rhyme to His reason. I don't think technology and religion can clash unless you force them too. The Christian Bible says God created the world in seven days. My thought has always been that seven days to a being that isn't constrained by time could be any amount of our time. I think they fact that we were created supercedes how He created everything.

I'm just saying it can't be random chance that all the constants are right maybe the Maya were right and are universe goes in cycles with the end always creating a new beginning I know. It's not random chance. It's called the laws of physics. And nobody created those. :rolleyes:

but you can't deny this had to be something from before the big bang (or whatever started are matter universe) and the only thing that was around then was maybe a God/s
...Or there could have been another universe that was dragged into a black hole, which at this point contained so much matter that it exploded into everything that's now existing today. Or maybe there was no "then". Maybe it was whatever there is before birth, and after death.

If someone is not prepared to have their beliefs examined, and possible ridiculed, then they should not hold beliefs.
ridiculing a belief is different than ridiculing a person.
saying "I think the belief in creationism is dumb"
is very different than saying "creationists are dumb"

Oh, I'm so for it. I'm arguing FOR science, and I was suggesting if there was a God (which I belive there wasn't) then he/she/it was flawed.

And how was I arguing against Science?



Really, becasue I didn't spot this.

And there's no need for insults.

No, because you failed to read the entire thread and you failed to appreciate the context in which I said it. Go back and read it again. Knee-jerk responses on our side (evolution) are as dangerous as knee-jerk responses on the other. I was resonding to his assertion that evolution seemed to work perfectly and that one minute error would have cancelled out all of evolution.

The thing is, the are likely a countless number of worlds where things didn't happen just right and life didn't occur. There are likewise probably a coutless number of worlds where life did occur but got snuffed out because a minor or major thing happened (Mars, for example. It is likely that bacterial-type organisms did occur there, and there is even conjecture, much argued about, that life on Mars might have "seeded" life here via a meteor impact on Mars that blew a chunk into the Earth.)

The fact is that indeed the just-right events needed to happen in order for life to occur and then multiply and diversify. The fact that it happened here is the only reason why we are able to conjecture on the hows (science,) and whys (science, philosophy and religion.) If it had happened to a planet orbiting Alpha Centauri, then the Centaurians would be wondering how and why life happened.

but you can't deny this had to be something from before the big bang (or whatever started are matter universe) and the only thing that was around then was maybe a God/s
People can deny anything they like. Some people can deny evolution and that the earth is older than 6000 years despite all the available evidence to the contrary. Other people can deny that anything existed before there was anything. This whole debate only exists (and is doomed eventually to fall apart) because of the limitlessness of people's ability to believe some things and deny others, no matter what.

Where do I fall in if I believe that evolution was a tool of God? I don't doubt He could have simply created everything, but it is some comfort to see a rhyme to His reason. I don't think technology and religion can clash unless you force them too. The Christian Bible says God created the world in seven days. My thought has always been that seven days to a being that isn't constrained by time could be any amount of our time. I think they fact that we were created supercedes how He created everything.

Evolution can't be a tool of god. It doesn't work that way. Basically it is a stochastic process, and therefore cannot be part of any plan or design.

But the past informs the present. By seeing how things happened before, we get a much better idea of how they will progress. The choices we make should be informed by what has and hasn't worked in the past. Beisdes, evolutionary theory has aided many scientific pursuits that have had real results.

Denial of the truths of the past leads to tragedy...as has been proven too often.
Correct, but my point is that arguing over how humans got here does no one any good. Arguing whether Napoleon had imperialistic ambitions or not is important; he committed things that were inside the sphere of human action and can serve as examples. Creation and evolution are not inside that sphere, and therefore to argue one versus the other is moot. It happened the way it happened, and it was not caused by human involvement in anything, and arguing about it does little or no good, since we cannot learn from the examples they provide.

Olara']I'm assuming that you'd like to know why I don't believe humans evolved. As I've said, I think evolution is a good theory with a lot of evidence supporting it. I think that it is a viable explanation for the origins and diversity of life. This is why I have no problem with people who subscribe to the theory.

That said, the events I've experienced in my life have led me to believe that the god of the Bible exists, that he loves me, and that he is great enough to create the universe in six days if he so chooses. It has also led me to believe that the Bible is the revealed word of God. I choose to interpret the creation account in Genesis literally. All the evidence I have at my disposal, and the interpretation i choose to take of the Bible, leads me to believe that the god of the Bible created the universe in six days, as told in Genesis.

Now, I don't expect you or anyone else to agree with the conclusions I've drawn. But as I've also said, I don't think it really matters what one believes about how the world and life got here. So I guess what I most desire is that both creationists and evolutionists would realize that there are people who hold beliefs different from their own and let them believe as they do without calling them stupid/ignorant/uneducated.

Why does Creationism and Evolution have to be a one-or-other scenario?

The Bible does not mention Evolution at all. Anywhere. Either for or against.

You yourself accepts that Evolution is a good theory, why couldn't it be God's tool to make sure that everything stays alive without him having to interfere?

Actually, a lot of people do deny that there was something before the big bang, i.e. the space time continuum is not infinite. But I thought you were talking about evolution.
Almost every evolution v. creationism debate ends up entangled with the big bang. I wonder if it has to do with the religious notion that the world was created for mankind, therefore it was all leading up to us, right here, right now, and (since we're made in god's image) this is the logical conclusion of it all, there'll be nothing after us. Not all religious people believe that, but many creationists do.

-snip-

I think I see where you're coming from.

Uh... no. Seriously, PM, you should know better by now.