NationStates Jolt Archive


Special Forces, suicide, being "macho," and the anti-malaria drug Lariam.

Eutrusca
12-10-2005, 16:44
COMMENTARY: Man, oh man, oh man. Does this ever ring true to me. Special Forces are suppose to be the finest we have. There was always great pressure to be the "hard-charging, hell-bent for leather, best of the best." Unfortunately, even "the best of the best" are subject to all to which the rest of humanity is prone.


Special Forces Suicides Raise Questions (http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,78508,00.html?ESRC=eb.nl)


Associated Press | October 12, 2005
DENVER - Chief Warrant Officer William Howell was a 15-year Army Special Forces veteran who had seen combat duty all over the world. Sgt. 1st Class Andre McDaniel was a military accountant. Spc. Jeremy Wilson repaired electronics.

They had little in common, other than having served in Iraq with the 10th Special Forces Group based at Fort Carson, Colo. They did not know each other, and they had vastly different duties.

Each, however, committed suicide shortly after returning home, all within about a 17-month period.

The Army says there appears to be no connection between the men's overseas service and their deaths, and Army investigators found no "common contributing cause" among the three. The fact they were in the same unit is only a coincidence, Special Operations Command spokeswoman Diane Grant said at Fort Bragg, N.C.

Others are not so sure. Steve Robinson, a former Army Ranger and veterans' advocate, said he suspects there were problems in the men's unit - namely, a macho refusal to acknowledge stress and seek help.

"It could be that there's a climate there that creates the stigma which prevents people from coming forward," said Robinson, executive director of the National Gulf War Resource Center. "The mentality of this particular group seemed to be `Ignore what you think and feel and keep doing your job and don't talk to me about that (expletive) combat stress reaction stuff.'"

Special Forces soldiers specialize in what the Army calls "unconventional warfare" - commando raids, search-and-destroy missions, intelligence gathering. They go through specialized psychological screening. They also undergo rigorous physical training and learn survival techniques and other skills, including foreign languages.

Howell, 36, a father of three, shot himself March 14, 2004 - three weeks after returning from Iraq - after hitting and threatening to kill his wife, Laura.

She said she did not see any warning signs until the night he threatened her.

"You look back every day and think what could I have done different. I can't think of anything," she said.

She said she did not know of any connection between her husband and the two other soldiers, and did not know them or their families. But she agreed with Robinson that Special Forces soldiers might have a more difficult time than other military personnel overcoming the stigma associated with seeking counseling.

"My husband would probably see getting help as a weakness," she said. "Even as mature and old and experienced as he was, he may look at it as `I can handle it, it's not that bad.'"

Special Forces officials said the Colorado-based unit experienced heavy combat in Iraq. Two members were killed in the first half of 2004 - one by a roadside bomb, another in a vehicle rollover. Another member, former Staff Sgt. Georg-Andreas Pogany, was sent home and charged with cowardice when the sight of the mangled body of an Iraqi caused a panic attack and prompted him to ask for psychological help. Charges against Pogany were later dropped, and he received a medical discharge.

Staff Sgt. Kyle Cosner, spokesman for the 10th Special Forces Group, declined to comment. Grant said unit morale appears high because the unit's soldiers re-enlist at a rate that is among the highest in the command.

She also said chaplains trained in counseling and suicide intervention are available to members of the 10th Special Forces Group and their families, and every Army unit's commanders are required to provide regular suicide prevention training.

The Army says its overall suicide rate in 2003 was 12.8 per 100,000 active-duty soldiers, while the rate in the general U.S. population was 10.5 per 100,000, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Military officials contend the 2003 figure for the Army was skewed by a spike in suicides among soldiers in Iraq and Kuwait; the 2004 rate was 11 per 100,000, Army spokeswoman Maj. Elizabeth Robbins said. An Army surgeon general's report said the suicide rate among soldiers sent to Iraq and Kuwait in 2004 was 8.5 per 100,000.

The Army has learned much about mental health in recent years and is working to improve treatment and ease soldiers' reluctance to seeking help, Robbins said.

Robinson has been pushing military leaders to stop using paper questionnaires to screen for problems among returning soldiers and switch to face-to-face meetings with mental health professionals.

"There have been improvements, but it's been like pulling teeth from a lion's mouth to get the Department of Defense to do things they're not willing to do because of the dollars," he said.

Laura Howell said she blamed Lariam, an Army-issued anti-malaria drug, for her husband's suicide. The drug's manufacturer, Roche Pharmaceuticals, says side effects can include anxiety, paranoia, depression, hallucinations and psychotic behavior. Pogany, the soldier unhinged by the sight of a mangled corpse, also believes the drug played a role in his case.

Roche and the military maintain the drug is safe, and it is among the drugs recommended by the CDC for preventing and treating malaria.

Wilson, 23, hanged himself in the post barracks July 9, about a month after returning from Iraq. The Associated Press was unable to find members of his family.

McDaniel, 40, a father of two, shot himself in August 2004, six weeks after he returned from Iraq. He had recently been arrested for allegedly arranging to have sex with an undercover officer who had posed on the Internet as a 13-year-old girl.

His widow, Linda, said her husband seemed withdrawn when he returned from Iraq. He had called home around Easter 2004 and said his unit was being shelled.

"He said goodbye at that particular time because he was scared he wouldn't be coming home," she said.
Drunk commies deleted
12-10-2005, 16:58
I once saw a science program on public television about psychology. Specifically the psychology of people who survive in tough situations. Apparently such people rate high on the psychoticism scale. Special forces guys are born survivors, so one would assume that many of them will rank high on the psychoticism scale. This tells me that one can expect some extreme behavior from them that would be more rare in the general public.

If the anti-malaria drug can aggravate the psychotic traits, well, it's likely to be more dangerous in Special Forces guys.
Demented Hamsters
12-10-2005, 17:08
Though this article doesn't address one pertinent question:
How many suicides among special forces personnel have there been, what is the rate and how does this compare to the national average?
2 suicides in 17 months doesn't seem that horrendous a stat to me. That's 2 out of how many people? What would be the expected figure out of a similar number of average citizens?
Until these sorts of stats are available, I'm viewing this article as being pretty poorly written and just trying to create a sensation where none really exists.
Dishonorable Scum
12-10-2005, 17:22
It's not just in the Army. A lot of people in civilian life refuse to acknowlege mental illness as a real problem requirin treatment. They think that, if you have a mental or emotional problem, it's your own fault for not being "tough enough".

Which is ridiculous. Would anyone in Special Forces think that they, or any of their fellow soldiers, was not "tough enough" if he couldn't carry on normally after taking a bullet in the knee? Of course not. But since mental or emotional stress doesn't usually leave any visible wounds, it's not seen the same way.

The good news is that people are finally starting to learn that combat can cause mental wounds that are just as real, and just as debilitating, as physical wounds, and that they require treatment in the same way.

I just wish people had learned sooner. I suffered from undiagnosed and untreated depression for years, from at least the age of 14 (and possibly much earlier), because my father was just too damned stubborn and macho to believe that mental illness was a real thing and that I needed medical help. And he still can't admit that he was wrong. I don't want anyone else to suffer through years of needless hell because of stupid, outdated attitudes like this.
The Black Forrest
12-10-2005, 17:22
Lariam....

I remember a few years ago discussing that with a couple primatologists heading out into the bush. Even back then there was concern over the side affects as they knew somebody who had a bad go of it.

I would belive the wifes claims.......
Fieberbrunn
12-10-2005, 17:27
This reminds me of a few years in Ft Bragg...four military wives were killed in a span of six weeks -- three by husbands who had just returned from Afghanistan.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0805/p03s01-usmi.html

It'd be interesting to see statistics from the Vietnam War as well.
Stephistan
12-10-2005, 17:28
Though this article doesn't address one pertinent question:
How many suicides among special forces personnel have there been, what is the rate and how does this compare to the national average?
2 suicides in 17 months doesn't seem that horrendous a stat to me. That's 2 out of how many people? What would be the expected figure out of a similar number of average citizens?
Until these sorts of stats are available, I'm viewing this article as being pretty poorly written and just trying to create a sensation where none really exists.

Actually it's pretty common knowledge that the American military (perhaps others too) give their soldiers drugs. Drugs to apparently protect them against chemical weapons, drugs to protect them against foreign illness that we don't see here in the west any more and of course drugs to keep them awake, especially true of fighter jet pilots. There was a lot about it on Canadian TV after the American fighter jets killed our Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan. They were so wired they didn't even follow a direct order to not fire, as Canadian troops were in the area doing training exercises, I think they basically got off, which totally pissed off many Canadians. However the American military giving drugs to the troops is nothing new.
Sierra BTHP
12-10-2005, 17:39
Actually it's pretty common knowledge that the American military (perhaps others too) give their soldiers drugs. Drugs to apparently protect them against chemical weapons, drugs to protect them against foreign illness that we don't see here in the west any more and of course drugs to keep them awake, especially true of fighter jet pilots. There was a lot about it on Canadian TV after the American fighter jets killed our Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan. They were so wired they didn't even follow a direct order to not fire, as Canadian troops were in the area doing training exercises, I think they basically got off, which totally pissed off many Canadians. However the American military giving drugs to the troops is nothing new.

The drug in question in the Canadian incident was Dexedrine. An amphetamine in use in the Air Force since the 1950s, following revelations that German pilots and soldiers used amphetamines during WW II.

I took Halcion on a regular basis when I was in the infantry - when you load onto a long transcontinental flight, and they want you awake when they arrive, you take it as soon as you're seated. You sleep through the whole flight, and wake up without jet lag.

I also took the pyridostigmine bromide - but I haven't had any side effects (took that during the first Gulf War). It is intended to potentiate the effects of nerve gas antidote (which we didn't have to take since we weren't gassed).

I would surmise that not all drug use is appropriate, nor would I surmise that all drug use is wrong. I would also not assume that all drugs affect people in the same way - there is always a small population with any drug that experiences side effects. Give a drug to 10,000 people, and some of them are going to have problems.

Even with common over-the-counter remedies.
Eutrusca
12-10-2005, 17:40
I once saw a science program on public television about psychology. Specifically the psychology of people who survive in tough situations. Apparently such people rate high on the psychoticism scale. Special forces guys are born survivors, so one would assume that many of them will rank high on the psychoticism scale. This tells me that one can expect some extreme behavior from them that would be more rare in the general public.

If the anti-malaria drug can aggravate the psychotic traits, well, it's likely to be more dangerous in Special Forces guys.
I'm "psychotic?" :eek:
Stephistan
12-10-2005, 17:44
I'm "psychotic?" :eek:

I think that depends on who you ask Eut..*LOL* ;)
Eutrusca
12-10-2005, 17:47
I would surmise that not all drug use is appropriate, nor would I surmise that all drug use is wrong. I would also not assume that all drugs affect people in the same way - there is always a small population with any drug that experiences side effects. Give a drug to 10,000 people, and some of them are going to have problems.

Even with common over-the-counter remedies.
Good point.

Is one of the side-effects the ability to find a gorgeous woman? :D
Eutrusca
12-10-2005, 17:48
I think that depends on who you ask Eut..*LOL* ;)
:p :p :p :p :p
Sierra BTHP
12-10-2005, 18:05
Good point.

Is one of the side-effects the ability to find a gorgeous woman? :D

One of the side effects I get from taking 40mg of Prozac a day is the ability to engage in sex continuously for at least two hours without having an orgasm.

My wife found this to be a very attractive side effect.
Drunk commies deleted
12-10-2005, 18:09
I'm "psychotic?" :eek:
We all are a little. It's just a personality trait.
Eutrusca
12-10-2005, 18:09
One of the side effects I get from taking 40mg of Prozac a day is the ability to engage in sex continuously for at least two hours without having an orgasm.

My wife found this to be a very attractive side effect.
ROFLMAO!!! No shit! :D
Eutrusca
12-10-2005, 18:10
We all are a little. It's just a personality trait.
Not one I'm fond of being told I have! :p LOL!
Drunk commies deleted
12-10-2005, 18:19
Not one I'm fond of being told I have! :p LOL!
It doesn't mean you're crazy. Everyone ranks somewhere along the scale. People who rank higher are more prone to violence, but that doesn't mean that they're crazy serial killers. If you're one of the guys who takes pride in being able to take care of himself in a dangerous situation, you probably have a high score.
Sierra BTHP
12-10-2005, 18:20
It doesn't mean you're crazy. Everyone ranks somewhere along the scale. People who rank higher are more prone to violence, but that doesn't mean that they're crazy serial killers. If you're one of the guys who takes pride in being able to take care of himself in a dangerous situation, you probably have a high score.

Generally, the more independent you are, the more antisocial you are rated.
The Downmarching Void
12-10-2005, 19:10
I myself have Bipolar Disorder, which means I've dealt with more than my share of serious depression, and even tried to commit suicide once (only failed because someone who wasn't supposed to be there walked in on me and saved me...aabout 15 seconds before the point of no return from my self-inflicted injuries) It wasn't until then, when I'd been dragged, unwillingly, to the emergency wartd and placed under arrest under the Mental Health Act and then placed in the psych ward, that I got any help with my problems. I'm no macho-man as it is, and certainly don't feel the need to always be tough as nails like someone in Special Forces. Nonetheless, I felt I should be strong enough to deal with my problem myself. Ultimately I found out the hard way that I couldn't.

So to me it comes as no surprise that these soldiers didn't ask for help, and would in fact have felt very ashamed to do so. Peoples attitudes need to change amongst the genral populace, let alone amongst a culture like that found in the military and especially in Special Forces. Its really tragic that these men who managed to live through a hell like Iraq couldn't bring themselves to ask for help getting through their own personal hell when they got back home. Unfortunately, it's not surprising. Hopefully atttitudes will eventually change enough that even guys in the Special Forces will realize there is no shame in asking for help to overcome such an overwhelming problem as depression.

Its ironic that in their job, they feel no shame in relying on eachother to stay alive and get the job done, but felt too ashamed to even share their personal difficulties once they got back home. Sad.