NationStates Jolt Archive

'Bikinis and booze caused bombings' (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16865508%5E2702,00.html)
Simon Kearney in Surabaya
October 10, 2005

AUSTRALIANS had declared a moral war on Muslims in Indonesia with their drinking and skimpy clothes in Bali, the eldest brother of three of those responsible for the 2002 attacks said yesterday.

Muhammed Khozin told The Australian at his home in Tenggulun, East Java, that his community didn't care about the October 1 Bali bombings because they were not linked to people from his village.

Mr Khozin's younger brothers Amrozi and Mukhlas were sentenced to death and Ali Imron to life imprisonment for their roles in the attacks on the Sari Club and Paddy's bar, which killed 202 people, including 88 Australians.

Mr Khozin said the behaviour of Westerners in his country was to blame for the radicalism adopted by his brothers.

"Alcohol, bikinis, that kind of thing makes Muslims angry. Don't do that when visiting a country with a Muslim majority," he said. "I'm sorry, Australian culture makes war on morality. They come to Bali with bikinis, they make war on morality. Not physical war, morality war. Respect the culture and religion of Indonesia."

His son, 19-year-old university student Afif, said there would be no end to terrorism while Australians continued going to Bali and behaving without respect for Muslim culture.

He believed the first Bali bombing committed by his uncles was justified because it discouraged tourists in Bali. "If Muslims died in that action, the Muslims will go to heaven," he said.

Afif said Muslims and Christians would only live side by side when Christians learned to respect Muslim culture.

Mr Khozin runs the Al-Islaman boarding school in the village that he founded with his late father 30 years ago. Such schools, known as pesantren, are seen as a breeding ground for terrorists.

He said if Canberra wanted to stop radicalism in Indonesia, it should teach Australians to be more respectful of Islam.

Moreover, Australia could help fund facilities at Islamic schools like his, which are mainly in poor areas and are under-resourced, to help better educate Muslims in Indonesia.

"Please give to us because maybe that's the way to make the relationship with Indonesia and Australia better," he said.

He taught his students the concept of "dakwah", which means to confront people who do things that are wrong and tell them to stop.

But he did not subscribe to the view of radicals that they should act to physically erase something they did not agree with.

His brothers had a different view of Islam to his but he believed they were still good people. He called on the Indonesian Government to return them to their community, where they could be rehabilitated.

"The community have a dream. If Amrozi came back here, he will do things like that."


Well, here you have it, ladies and gentlemen. Bikinis and booze cause terrorism. Now give some money to people who teach that bikinis cause terrorism- because maybe it is the way to co-existence.:rolleyes:

I'd like to go there wearing nothing but a pair of speedos, carrying a bottle of Yukon Jack and a big basket of BLT's. (but hey, thats just me)

Ok, while I can understand and sympathise the fact that many tourists will behave in a way that insults Muslims in Bali, I dont' think that justifies the bombings in any way whatsoever. There are other options to take, especially if the majority shares your feelings.
And I do think that this request for money from Australia was rather brazen...

Heh. I knew it, there had to be some kinda connection between tourist and terrorist. I mean, listen to them and tell me they don't sound similar.

I can see their point of view. It is an insult to go there in a bikini or even topless, I mean, imagine some people running around naked in the street in front of your kids swinging their schlong (that's the comparative behaviour when it comes to moral standards). And then you go to a policeman and hear "oh, they may, they're tourists".

Wouldn't you feel a little bit insulted?

Bombing is no civilized answer. It isn't by muslim standards either. That's a given. But when people get mad beyond reason, they do things beyond reason.

Seems like a bunch of whackjobs on the same level of that dude, Timmy McVeigh i think. The only big question is where did they get the explosives? Seems like anybody can get a bomb vest at your local 7-11 nowadays.

Bikinis piss them off? Let them spend a day at Sylt and they'll worship bikinis...:p

Yeah, I'm a bit worried that bikinis make them murderous zealots. Beer, I can understand, sort of, but bikinis, no. I think it best to go naked, as its all natural that way.

Heh. I knew it, there had to be some kinda connection between tourist and terrorist. I mean, listen to them and tell me they don't sound similar.

I can see their point of view. It is an insult to go there in a bikini or even topless, I mean, imagine some people running around naked in the street in front of your kids swinging their schlong (that's the comparative behaviour when it comes to moral standards). And then you go to a policeman and hear "oh, they may, they're tourists".

Wouldn't you feel a little bit insulted?

Bombing is no civilized answer. It isn't by muslim standards either. That's a given. But when people get mad beyond reason, they do things beyond reason.
If it is against the standards of their culture then the government should either make it illegal or bar entry for tourists.

I very much doubt the bombing was carried out with the intention of getting tourists to cover up, more as a show of power by the groups organizers to recruit more people to their group and increase their personal power and status.

Ok, while I can understand and sympathise the fact that many tourists will behave in a way that insults Muslims in Bali, I don't think that justifies the bombings in any way whatsoever. Particularly since Bali not a Muslim island, it is massively dominated by Hindus and is the only Hindu stronghold in the world's largest Muslim country.

Uh...but Bali is 90% Hindu...

EDIT- lol, too slow.

"You're culture is evil and you're to blame for these bombings......please give to us."

Dontcha just love the world.

The fact is actually far more simple. People looking to find something to take offense at invariably find it. And too many Muslim clerics are telling their young students that the rest of the world has it in for them.

If you feel that people are after you, you WILL defend yourself. And if your head gets filled with notions on how the west are trying to take over the world to make it safe for Levis jeans - or rather one big pool of homogeneous consumers to market to - you will certainly find evidence of that too.

And having people on the other side mouthing the "our god is greater than your God" crap only fuels the fire.

Which is in no way a means to excuse the actions. but the children of Clansmen might just tend to look for any instance of wrongdoing by a black man to reenforce their hatefull steriotypes too.

It starts at the top, and where people are teaching hate - on all sides - THEY are the ones that raise the new generations of radicals. What the radicals use as their excuses to act is almost immaterial as you can find reasons to dislike ANYONE if that is your intent.

So this guy picked bikinis. So what. Sure it's stupid on it's face, but no more so than any other generalization they might have made.

And people thought that the story about seedless watermelons wasn't true...

B-b-b-b-but seedless watermelons ARE the product of militant zionist homosexuals!!!



Aren't they?

:p

B-b-b-b-but seedless watermelons ARE the product of militant zionist homosexuals!!!

Aren't they?

:p

Well, I have it on good authority that California navel oranges (you know, the ones without the seeds) are hand picked by homosexuals from San Francisco who make the yearly migration to the lush valleys of California's orange growing region.

What about clementines. Please tell me they don't touch clementines with their dirty dirty hands! ;)

What about clementines. Please tell me they don't touch clementines with their dirty dirty hands! ;)

No, but there's a problem when they pick those hydroponic cucumbers. We have to keep washing them before sending them on to the stores.

I would like to see what happens when those bikini clad people along with the rest of their tourist industry goes bubye

I would like to see what happens when those bikini clad people along with the rest of their tourist industry goes bubye The extremists would probably celebrate. The 90% Hindu population of Bali, which is almost entirely dependent on tourism, would suffer enormously.

I would like to see what happens when those bikini clad people along with the rest of their tourist industry goes bubye

Islamic militants don't care about the economy. They just enjoy killing people, so they do it.

The extremists would probably celebrate. The 90% Hindu population of Bali, which is almost entirely dependent on tourism, would suffer enormously.
Fair enough … idiots always make claim to being representatives of whole populations (such as countries)

'Bikinis and booze caused bombings' (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16865508%5E2702,00.html)

"Alcohol, bikinis, that kind of thing makes Muslims angry. Don't do that when visiting a country with a Muslim majority," he said. "I'm sorry, Australian culture makes war on morality. They come to Bali with bikinis, they make war on morality. Not physical war, morality war. Respect the culture and religion of Indonesia."

His son, 19-year-old university student Afif, said there would be no end to terrorism while Australians continued going to Bali and behaving without respect for Muslim culture.

Afif said Muslims and Christians would only live side by side when Christians learned to respect Muslim culture.

He said if Canberra wanted to stop radicalism in Indonesia, it should teach Australians to be more respectful of Islam.

He taught his students the concept of "dakwah", which means to confront people who do things that are wrong and tell them to stop.

But he did not subscribe to the view of radicals that they should act to physically erase something they did not agree with.

[ edited for emphasis ]

And this is the very thing that many, including me, have been saying all along. Islam is a highly moralistic religion and makes what most Westerners feel are incredible demands on its followers. This accounts both for its growth and its aggresiveness.

When someone makes the sort of comittment Islam ( and other "fundamentalist" religions ) demands of its followers, anything seen as questioning or flouting the laws of God becomes the object of severe censure or outright attack.

Yes, Westerners should respect the mores and folkways of nations they visit, but the consequences for not doing so should not be death. If there are enough muslims in Indonesia who feel this way to constitute a majority, they should take over the country and forbid the sort of things they say are anti-Muslim. The problems arrise when the government encrourages torism from non-Muslim countries and the local populace takes offense ... or when Muslims try to export their peculiar version of "God's will." :(

[ edited for emphasis ]

And this is the very thing that many, including me, have been saying all along. Islam is a highly moralistic religion and makes what most Westerners feel are incredible demands on its followers. This accounts both for its growth and its aggresiveness.

When someone makes the sort of comittment Islam ( and other "fundamentalist" religions ) demands of its followers, anything seen as questioning or flouting the laws of God becomes the object of severe censure or outright attack.

Yes, Westerners should respect the mores and folkways of nations they visit, but the consequences for not doing so should not be death. If there are enough muslims in Indonesia who feel this way to constitute a majority, they should take over the country and forbid the sort of things they say are anti-Muslim. The problems arrise when the government encrourages torism from non-Muslim countries and the local populace takes offense ... or when Muslims try to export their peculiar version of "God's will." :(

… and that’s exactly how a lot of us non Christians feel about the “Christian” right in the united states right now (sorry did not mean to start this argument but it was way too close to what I am seeing in our own country to pass up)

(minus the take over country part as the consitution should be protecting the rights of the minority as well)

[ edited for emphasis ]

And this is the very thing that many, including me, have been saying all along. Islam is a highly moralistic religion and makes what most Westerners feel are incredible demands on its followers. This accounts both for its growth and its aggresiveness.

When someone makes the sort of comittment Islam ( and other "fundamentalist" religions ) demands of its followers, anything seen as questioning or flouting the laws of God becomes the object of severe censure or outright attack.
The problem is not that Islam makes these demands on its followers. The problem is that some Muslim radicals demand that not only Muslims, but the rest of the world also submits to these demands. Here, the problem is not that Muslims are wearing bikinis, but that non-Muslims are wearing them- in areas where the state law does not prohibit them from doing so.

… and that’s exactly how a lot of us non Christians feel about the “Christian” right in the united states right now (sorry did not mean to start this argument but it was way too close to what I am seeing in our own country to pass up)

(minus the take over country part as the consitution should be protecting the rights of the minority as well)
Perhaps surprisingly enough, I agree. The "true believers" do not make a good majority government, simply because of the intensity of their beliefs. Governments, to be effective, should be secular, not belief-based. Yes, anyone who "believes" should be allowed to run for public office; they're citizens too. The problem arrises when the intensity of their beliefs motivate them to impose draconian measures which, in effect, are an imposition of their beliefs, as opposed to a necessity of law.

And this is the very thing that many, including me, have been saying all along. Islam is a highly moralistic religion and makes what most Westerners feel are incredible demands on its followers. This accounts both for its growth and its aggresiveness.

It's one thing to make incredible demands on their own followers. I mean, if they don't want to wear bikinis and drink alcohol, more power to them.

But they have no right to impose their morality on everyone else.

Typical muslim - always whining about how we have no respect for their backward culture, but then have no respect for our culture when they move to our countries.

It's one thing to make incredible demands on their own followers. I mean, if they don't want to wear bikinis and drink alcohol, more power to them.

But they have no right to impose their morality on everyone else.
If it's their country, they do, but as I indicated in my previous post, this becomes a problem when they're not the majority, or when they try to export their own peculiar morality.

Perhaps surprisingly enough, I agree. The "true believers" do not make a good majority government, simply because of the intensity of their beliefs. Governments, to be effective, should be secular, not belief-based. Yes, anyone who "believes" should be allowed to run for public office; they're citizens too. The problem arrises when the intensity of their beliefs motivate them to impose draconian measures which, in effect, are an imposition of their beliefs, as opposed to a necessity of law.
Absolutely people don’t see that not only does that protect others rights and religions but YOUR own as well (that’s why I said Christian right in general not you specifically :) )

Typical muslim - always whining about how we have no respect for their backward culture, but then have no respect for our culture when they move to our countries.
Exactly, although I don't know if you could characterize it as "typical."

Absolutely people don’t see that not only does that protect others rights and religions but YOUR own as well (that’s why I said Christian right in general not you specifically :) )
LOL! Um ... why would that be even a possibility? I'm not a "christian" in the usual sense of the word. :p

B-b-b-b-but seedless watermelons ARE the product of militant zionist homosexuals!!!
Of course they are seedless watermelons are the number one cause of Homosexuality among Arabs. However, bikini's are also a zionist plot, but not to cause Homosexuality. Instead, bikini's cause seedless watermelons.
Do you know what the number one cause of bikini's is?
JEWS!
I mean look at the U.S.'s history:
100 A.D.: No Jews, No Bikinis, No Seedless Watermelons, No Gays
1600 A.D.: Jews start flying in on MJPs (Magic Jew Planes)
1890 A.D.: Bikinis start appearing
19-- (Exact date unknown, due to the Jew SubConspiracy known as Make Fiddlebottoms Lazy) A.D.: Bikinis fire the asexual ichor of seedles watermelons, Seedless water melons being appearing in sizeable numbers
1970 A.D.: Dave Clincy Muhammed is eating a seedless watermelon, moments before he suddenly has an unstoppable desire to hump Tom Cruise's leg.
And from there it is all downhill. Now can you blaim the Baliians from wanting to protect their hearth and home and happiness and other words that start with h? I can't.

Boycott 'em. Don't vacation in Indonesia. Don't buy Indonesian goods or services. Let the radicals see what it's like without foreign money comming into their economies. I hate to hurt the good people of Indonesia, and I've met several wonderfull people from there, but since the government doesn't crack down hard on the terrorists economic leverage must be brought to bear.

Ok, while I can understand and sympathise the fact that many tourists will behave in a way that insults Muslims in Bali, I dont' think that justifies the bombings in any way whatsoever. There are other options to take, especially if the majority shares your feelings.
And I do think that this request for money from Australia was rather brazen...
Bali's not even a majority Muslim Island, is it? It's the one part of Indonesia that still has a majority Hindu population left over from the Majapahit empire IIRC.

Boycott 'em. Don't vacation in Indonesia. Don't buy Indonesian goods or services. Let the radicals see what it's like without foreign money comming into their economies. I hate to hurt the good people of Indonesia, and I've met several wonderfull people from there, but since the government doesn't crack down hard on the terrorists economic leverage must be brought to bear.
That would play right into the fundamentalists' hands. They want to see an Islamic government installed in Indonesia ( and everywhere else, for that matter ), and a lack of tourist dollars would probably make the secular government eventually collapse.

Bali's not even a majority Muslim Island, is it? It's the one part of Indonesia that still has a majority Hindu population left over from the Majapahit empire IIRC.

Correct.

Bali's not even a majority Muslim Island, is it? It's the one part of Indonesia that still has a majority Hindu population left over from the Majapahit empire IIRC.
And this is appropros of what, pray tell?

getting on the turps and boning hot aussie chicks is a time honoured tradition in bali. what the fuck hapend?

That would play right into the fundamentalists' hands. They want to see an Islamic government installed in Indonesia ( and everywhere else, for that matter ), and a lack of tourist dollars would probably make the secular government eventually collapse.
If the cause of the boycott, extremist Muslim terrorists, is made clear then the current government and the majority of citizens who don't really give a rat's ass about some drunk Australian girl in a thong bikini sunning herself will, out of a sense of self preservation, root out and eliminate the radicals. Indonesia has a fairly strong economy. They've worked hard to get there. They don't want to go back to hunting and gathering in the jungles.

And this is appropros of what, pray tell?
The Muslims claiming that the tourists (in Bali) are offending Muslim culture. WTF? Bali's culture is Hindu!

getting on the turps and boning hot aussie chicks is a time honoured tradition in bali. what the fuck hapend?
Muslim fundamentalism happened. :(

If the cause of the boycott, extremist Muslim terrorists, is made clear then the current government and the majority of citizens who don't really give a rat's ass about some drunk Australian girl in a thong bikini sunning herself will, out of a sense of self preservation, root out and eliminate the radicals. Indonesia has a fairly strong economy. They've worked hard to get there. They don't want to go back to hunting and gathering in the jungles.
Logic and devotion to money are poor weapons indeed with which to combat intensity of belief. :(

The Muslims claiming that the tourists (in Bali) are offending Muslim culture. WTF? Bali's culture is Hindu!
And the Muslim minority there cares about this? Hmmm.

Logic and devotion to money are poor weapons indeed with which to combat intensity of belief. :(

If you have logic, and money, all you need to do is use your logic to design weapons and tactics, and spend money to build weapons and raise armies.

Then all you need is to be willing to kill them. It's the lack of will that keeps us from winning. We would have to be more ruthless and merciless than they are, which is morally offensive to most Westerners.

In the long run, we may lose because we're becoming more and more unwilling to kill for our own beliefs. Or even our own survival.

Muslim fundamentalism happened. :(

But that's the thing, Bali is Hindu, not Islamic.

If you have logic, and money, all you need to do is use your logic to design weapons and tactics, and spend money to build weapons and raise armies.

Then all you need is to be willing to kill them. It's the lack of will that keeps us from winning. We would have to be more ruthless and merciless than they are, which is morally offensive to most Westerners.

In the long run, we may lose because we're becoming more and more unwilling to kill for our own beliefs. Or even our own survival.
I tend to agree. :headbang:

But that's the thing, Bali is Hindu, not Islamic.
Somehow, I don't think the Muslim minority allows that to influence their beliefs. :(

Somehow, I don't think the Muslim minority allows that to influence their beliefs. :(

my m8 ali lives in indonesia and he's a muslim.


He's a good guy,

my m8 ali lives in indonesia and he's a muslim.

He's a good guy,
There are "good guys" in every country and religion on the earth. It's the "true believers" who will to do anything to make sure "God's will" is done who are the problem.

If the cause of the boycott, extremist Muslim terrorists, is made clear then the current government and the majority of citizens who don't really give a rat's ass about some drunk Australian girl in a thong bikini sunning herself will, out of a sense of self preservation, root out and eliminate the radicals. Indonesia has a fairly strong economy. They've worked hard to get there. They don't want to go back to hunting and gathering in the jungles.
The Balinese government is trying to crack down on the extremists, but all over that region, extremist violence is astonishing. In some remote areas, they've decided to attack Buddhist villages because the Buddhists won't convert. It's madness. But the authorities over there kick ass in their own countries; you wouldn't want to be arrested for a violent crime there.

Let me get this straight. Some guys decided that they didn't like the tourists with bikinis and booze. So they blew up a night club. Their reward for this is what? A trip to heaven with some virgins waiting for them? Isn't that just a little ironic? Unless, of course, the virgins are just going to be there to read the Koran to them.

Hello,

I've spent 13 years (elementary - highschool) in an Islamic school, and also 3 years in an Islamic university in Indonesia and never once someone taught me that Moslem should assimilate the world into Islam.

On the contrary, it is written in Islamic law that people with different spiritual views (different religion) should be protected and their social lives should be guaranteed (in an Islam community).

So, terrorist are terrorist. They're a bunch of people with logic and moral turned upside down, and alas, in this case they happened to be Moslem.

I can see their point of view. It is an insult to go there in a bikini or even topless, I mean, imagine some people running around naked in the street in front of your kids swinging their schlong (that's the comparative behaviour when it comes to moral standards). And then you go to a policeman and hear "oh, they may, they're tourists".

Yes, when we came to a place then we're supposed to follow the place's rules and ethics or we might offend someone. But then again I agree with you who said that Bali is not a Moslem community and it has been tourist destination place since long time ago. So there's no problem with bikinis and everything in Bali. Terrorist are just terrorist.

And no matter how offended you are, bombing, especially suicidal, is the dumbest thing to do.

Let me get this straight. Some guys decided that they didn't like the tourists with bikinis and booze. So they blew up a night club. Their reward for this is what? A trip to heaven with some virgins waiting for them? Isn't that just a little ironic? Unless, of course, the virgins are just going to be there to read the Koran to them.

And hell would be a place full of Gay guys for them :D

Let me get this straight. Some guys decided that they didn't like the tourists with bikinis and booze. So they blew up a night club. Their reward for this is what? A trip to heaven with some virgins waiting for them? Isn't that just a little ironic? Unless, of course, the virgins are just going to be there to read the Koran to them.


Yeah the sept 11 bombers got to heaven and found 20 virgins were wating for them.






The only thing was, the virgins were each other...

Hello,

I've spent 13 years (elementary - highschool) in an Islamic school, and also 3 years in an Islamic university in Indonesia and never once someone taught me that Moslem should assimilate the world into Islam.

On the contrary, it is written in Islamic law that people with different spiritual views (different religion) should be protected and their social lives should be guaranteed (in an Islam community).

So, terrorist are terrorist. They're a bunch of people with logic and moral turned upside down, and alas, in this case they happened to be Moslem.

Yes, when we came to a place then we're supposed to follow the place's rules and ethics or we might offend someone. But then again I agree with you who said that Bali is not a Moslem community and it has been tourist destination place since long time ago. So there's no problem with bikinis and everything in Bali. Terrorist are just terrorist.
Agreed. Unfortunately it's always the wackos that make the news. As a Christian, I'm frequently upset that the Pat Robertsons and Fred Phelpses are the ones who grab the headlines, while the people going about their lives trying to please God while not inciting hatred get missed. Such is America, I suppose.:(

Yeah the sept 11 bombers got to heaven and found 20 virgins were wating for them.

The only thing was, the virgins were each other...
Did they have some seedless watermelon, too?

Hello,

I've spent 13 years (elementary - highschool) in an Islamic school, and also 3 years in an Islamic university in Indonesia and never once someone taught me that Moslem should assimilate the world into Islam.

On the contrary, it is written in Islamic law that people with different spiritual views (different religion) should be protected and their social lives should be guaranteed (in an Islam community).

So, terrorist are terrorist. They're a bunch of people with logic and moral turned upside down, and alas, in this case they happened to be Moslem.



Yes, when we came to a place then we're supposed to follow the place's rules and ethics or we might offend someone. But then again I agree with you who said that Bali is not a Moslem community and it has been tourist destination place since long time ago. So there's no problem with bikinis and everything in Bali. Terrorist are just terrorist.

And no matter how offended you are, bombing, especially suicidal, is the dumbest thing to do.
I agree with you. I've met several Indonesian people. Silat instructors and students. All those people were very friendly. Unfortunately there are some Islamist organizations in Indonesia that follow a different interpretation of Islam. They are the ones responsible for the bombings and if the government of Indonesia doesn't root them out and destroy them the nation will suffer from lost foreign money.

Let me get this straight. Some guys decided that they didn't like the tourists with bikinis and booze. So they blew up a night club. Their reward for this is what? A trip to heaven with some virgins waiting for them? Isn't that just a little ironic? Unless, of course, the virgins are just going to be there to read the Koran to them.
A firm grip on the concept of cognative dissonance has never been the forte of the "true believer." :headbang:

So, terrorist are terrorist. They're a bunch of people with logic and moral turned upside down, and alas, in this case they happened to be Moslem.

And no matter how offended you are, bombing, especially suicidal, is the dumbest thing to do.
Great first post! I agree completely. :)

They come to Bali with bikinis, they make war on morality. Not physical war, morality war. Respect the culture and religion of Indonesia."
Of course if it was someone like Michael Moore or Rush Limbargh (go on just picture those two in bikinis. go on. I dare you!) heading over there in a bikini, I think they'd have every right to feel offended and want to cause terrorist actions.


On another note, doncha just love how they're always complaining about Westerners not respecting their culture when in their country, yet then at the same token demand changes when moving to a Western country. Really when they move to Oz, they should respect the Aussie culture by wearing speedos, sunscreen, thongs and sitting on a beach drinking VB and listening to the Aussie rules on the radio.

Of course if it was someone like Michael Moore or Rush Limbargh (go on just picture those two in bikinis. go on. I dare you!) heading over there in a bikini, I think they'd have every right to feel offended and want to cause terrorist actions.


On another note, doncha just love how they're always complaining about Westerners not respecting their culture when in their country, yet then at the same token demand changes when moving to a Western country. Really when they move to Oz, they should respect the Aussie culture by wearing speedos, sunscreen, thongs and sitting on a beach drinking VB and listening to the Aussie rules on the radio.
Yeah, and when in the USA they should all be devoutly religious, try to get their religious laws enforced by the government, carry guns, and uh, wait, this might not work out.

On another note, doncha just love how they're always complaining about Westerners not respecting their culture when in their country, yet then at the same token demand changes when moving to a Western country. Really when they move to Oz, they should respect the Aussie culture by wearing speedos, sunscreen, thongs and sitting on a beach drinking VB and listening to the Aussie rules on the radio.
That's exactly what I was saying. Muslims are hypocrites, they always whine about how we don't respect their culture in their countries. But then when they move to our countries they start demanding the right to do things like wear headscarves in schools despite the school dress code, or open up places of worship despite local opposition.

That's exactly what I was saying. Muslims are hypocrites, they always whine about how we don't respect their culture in their countries. But then when they move to our countries they start demanding the right to do things like wear headscarves in schools despite the school dress code, or open up places of worship despite local opposition.
Yeah of course all Moslems are hypocrites :rolleyes: specialy them ones trying to open places where they can woship:rolleyes:

A firm grip on the concept of cognative dissonance has never been the forte of the "true believer." :headbang:
I love them two-dollar words!

We should try the happy days solution. Draw a big white line down the middle of the apartment (planet), and then the muslims stay on their side, and we stay on ours. It worked great for Richie and Potsy.

Then if that doesn't work, we can always get the Fonz to sort things out.

Hello,

I've spent 13 years (elementary - highschool) in an Islamic school, and also 3 years in an Islamic university in Indonesia and never once someone taught me that Moslem should assimilate the world into Islam.

On the contrary, it is written in Islamic law that people with different spiritual views (different religion) should be protected and their social lives should be guaranteed (in an Islam community).

So, terrorist are terrorist. They're a bunch of people with logic and moral turned upside down, and alas, in this case they happened to be Moslem.



Yes, when we came to a place then we're supposed to follow the place's rules and ethics or we might offend someone. But then again I agree with you who said that Bali is not a Moslem community and it has been tourist destination place since long time ago. So there's no problem with bikinis and everything in Bali. Terrorist are just terrorist.

And no matter how offended you are, bombing, especially suicidal, is the dumbest thing to do.
Absolutely true! Killers are killers, and terrorists are just killers who make up excuses for themselves. To my mind, there's no difference between Islamic terrorists, Timothy McVeigh, the violent arms of the IRA, ETA, etc. To identify terrorism with a religion or ethnic group, etc., not only demonizes a whole society but also gives the terrorists a legitimacy they don't deserve. The Bali bombers represent neither Bali nor Islam.

We should try the happy days solution. Draw a big white line down the middle of the apartment (planet), and then the muslims stay on their side, and we stay on ours. It worked great for Richie and Potsy.

Then if that doesn't work, we can always get the Fonz to sort things out.

HEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!

Killing people for wearing bikinis is another culture, we should respect them :rolleyes:

The problem her is that a modern culture is clashing with a culture that is virtually medieval in terms of moral standards. I think that the harsher parts of that culture should be softened by influences from western culture.

Seems like a bunch of whackjobs on the same level of that dude, Timmy McVeigh i think.
These guys make McVeigh look sane and normal.

Typical fundamentalist muslim - always whining about how we have no respect for their backward culture, but then have no respect for our culture when they move to our countries.
I agree. (with correction)

Boycott 'em. Don't vacation in Indonesia. Don't buy Indonesian goods or services. Let the radicals see what it's like without foreign money comming into their economies. I hate to hurt the good people of Indonesia, and I've met several wonderfull people from there, but since the government doesn't crack down hard on the terrorists economic leverage must be brought to bear.
I disagree. That would punish the undeserving majority of Indonesia, and harm the moderate political movements in that country. I agree with Eutrusca:
That would play right into the fundamentalists' hands. They want to see an Islamic government installed in Indonesia ( and everywhere else, for that matter ), and a lack of tourist dollars would probably make the secular government eventually collapse.
And we all know what would happen next. The radicals would use the resourcefulness of Indonesia as the starting point for the establishment of the 21st century Caliphate.

If the cause of the boycott, extremist Muslim terrorists, is made clear then the current government and the majority of citizens who don't really give a rat's ass about some drunk Australian girl in a thong bikini sunning herself will, out of a sense of self preservation, root out and eliminate the radicals.
I don't have that much faith in the Indonesian people, or in their ability to root them out even if they were trying to (which they may be).

The Muslims claiming that the tourists (in Bali) are offending Muslim culture. WTF? Bali's culture is Hindu!
Extremists usually claim to represent the majority (see the BNP in the UK).

Then all you need is to be willing to kill them. It's the lack of will that keeps us from winning. We would have to be more ruthless and merciless than they are, which is morally offensive to most Westerners.

In the long run, we may lose because we're becoming more and more unwilling to kill for our own beliefs. Or even our own survival.
I have no problem with slaying terrorists and enemy armies of all kinds. What I have a problem with is slaying innocent Muslims.

Let me get this straight. Some guys decided that they didn't like the tourists with bikinis and booze. So they blew up a night club. Their reward for this is what? A trip to heaven with some virgins waiting for them? Isn't that just a little ironic? Unless, of course, the virgins are just going to be there to read the Koran to them.
Yes, I wonder what the response from the Muslim fundamentalist would be if you were to suggest that all these guys are just bombing so that they can spend eternity having mindless hedonistic sex? Because that is somehow OK beyond this life, but a sin to kill for on Earth.

If it's their country, they do, but as I indicated in my previous post, this becomes a problem when they're not the majority, or when they try to export their own peculiar morality.
No they don't. Now, if the tourists waltzed around on East Java, they might have a say in things. But they're running around Bali, which is primarily Hindu.

Of course if it was someone like Michael Moore or Rush Limbargh (go on just picture those two in bikinis. go on. I dare you!) heading over there in a bikini, I think they'd have every right to feel offended and want to cause terrorist actions.thank you for setting up this road block. couldn't even get past this to the rest of the posts...

now, PLEASE HELP ME GET THESE DAMN IMAGES OUTTA MY HEAD!!! :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

So just what is it that these guys figure so displeases Allah about seeing a little skin, anyway?

Sheesh.

No they don't. Now, if the tourists waltzed around on East Java, they might have a say in things. But they're running around Bali, which is primarily Hindu.
Tell them that. :rolleyes:

When did Rosie O'Donald go to Bali ?

When did Rosie O'Donald go to Bali ?

*shudders* That alone is worth a declaration of war! :D

thank you for setting up this road block. couldn't even get past this to the rest of the posts...

now, PLEASE HELP ME GET THESE DAMN IMAGES OUTTA MY HEAD!!! :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

Just imagine Janet Reno in a bikini and that should get those images out quickly.

Just imagine Janet Reno in a bikini and that should get those images out quickly.

Just for that I will have you charged with a crime against humanity!