NationStates Jolt Archive


Terrorists in ... Belgium. BELGIUM??? WTF, over??

Eutrusca
10-10-2005, 17:12
COMMENTARY: A terror network in Belgium ( yes, Belgium! ) lends credence to the "Caliphatists" theory of worldwide Islam's warlike approach to other countries, IMHO. Your thoughts?


Belgium Is Trying to Unravel
the Threads of a Terror Web (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/10/international/europe/10belgium.html?pagewanted=2&th&emc=th)


By ELAINE SCIOLINO and HÉLÈNE FOUQUET
Published: October 10, 2005

BRUSSELS - On a damp, gray day in March 2004, the Dutch traffic police stopped a Belgian driver for a broken headlight and accidentally stumbled onto a major investigation of Islamic radicals.

Diana Scheilen/Hollandse Hoogte, for The New York Times
Jan Creemers, mayor of Maaseik, Belgium. The town is home to 4 of 18 suspects charged with aiding terrorists linked to the 2004 Madrid bombings.

The driver was Khalid Bouloudo, a sometime baker and former Ford autoworker born in Belgium. During a routine check, his name turned up on an Interpol watch list, for an international arrest warrant from Morocco charging him with links to a terrorist organization based in Morocco and involvement in suicide bombings in Casablanca in 2003.

The random arrest set in motion a cascade of events that underscored the extent of the radicalization of young Muslims throughout Europe - and a rapidly expanding and homegrown terrorist threat.

The case suggests a loose arrangement of terrorist sympathizers around Europe who officials say have provided support to terrorist operations in a number of countries. This has presented even small countries like Belgium with difficult law enforcement problems, forcing them to employ new investigative methods and pass tougher laws.

For more than a year, Belgian counterterrorism police officers had been gathering information about Mr. Bouloudo and his contacts in an investigation code-named Operation Asparagus, after the plump white asparagus grown in the eastern border area where they lived. His arrest abruptly cut short the operation.

Fearing that Mr. Bouloudo's contacts would go underground or flee, counterterrorism forces immediately carried out a series of raids throughout the country, dismantling over the next few months what they believed was a sophisticated network that supported the bombings in Casablanca and in Madrid in 2004 and that is also suspected of trying to recruit fighters for the insurgency in Iraq.

In November, the case of the Asparagus 18, as the suspects might be called, finally goes to trial in Brussels. For the first time, Belgian prosecutors will be using an antiterrorism law that came into effect at the end of 2003 and that specifically criminalizes a terrorist act and association with terrorists and imposes a prison sentence of up to 20 years.

None of the 18 men indicted - most of them born in Morocco or of Moroccan descent and from 24 to 42 years old - have been charged with committing or even plotting a specific terrorist act in Belgium.

Instead, the trial will highlight how over the past decade Belgium has become a support center for terrorists in Europe, offering safe haven, false documents and financing. Prosecutors hope to prove that the suspects provided material support to a terrorist group, including lodging and false papers for the bombers who killed 190 in Madrid last year.

Among the other charges are the fabrication and the use of false documents, illegal entry and residence in Belgium, possession of illegal weapons and criminal association with a terrorist enterprise, in this case the Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group, or G.I.C.M., a loose-knit organization founded by Moroccans, many of whom were trained in Afghanistan before the Taliban were overthrown. Mr. Bouloudo is also believed to have trained there.

"The case is a prototype of the new post-Afghanistan network - a little bit of everything: native-born radicals, immigrants from Morocco, travel to places like Saudi Arabia, connection to operations like Madrid," said Glenn Audenaert, the director of Belgium's federal police force. "It's like handling a number of particles of mercury, toxic in themselves and even more toxic when they come together."

Several lawyers for the defendants said their clients were innocent of terrorist activities, although they said they expected them to be convicted of lesser charges.

A Logistical Base

Despite a well-integrated Moroccan immigrant population that has lived and worked in Belgium for more than half a century, the country has become the destination of choice for many French-speaking immigrants who are put off by France's intrusive security and intelligence services and tougher laws.

It was in Belgium, for example, that the two Tunisian killers of Ahmed Shah Massoud, the Afghan resistance leader who was assassinated in 2001, received logistical support. Disguised as journalists, they had Belgian passports and had traveled to Afghanistan from Belgium.

Even defense lawyers involved in the Asparagus 18 trial acknowledge the attractiveness of Belgium as a support center for international criminal and even terrorist activity. "Belgium has become a logistical base for these people," said Didier de Quévy, a lawyer who has been involved in terrorist cases in the past and is representing one of the defendants. "They have come here because the penalties have been light."

Indeed, Belgium's terrorism-fighting tools are limited, even though Brussels, as the headquarters of both the European Union and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, is the closest Europe comes to having a Continental capital.

It has no equivalent of a Central Intelligence Agency and only a few intelligence officers working abroad. Only 50 police officers, detectives and special agents are assigned nationwide to monitor the Muslim population for potential terrorist plots.

Investigators complain that suspects in Belgium can be held for only 24 hours - compared with up to four days in France - under the vague charge of suspicion of association with criminals. And the hurdles to use intrusive investigative methods, like wiretaps, to obtain evidence in terrorist-related cases are more onerous than in many other European countries.

[ This article is two pages long. To read the rest of the article, go here (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/10/international/europe/10belgium.html?pagewanted=2&th&emc=th). ]
Laerod
10-10-2005, 17:16
Why are you so surprised? Just because they haven't been pulling things off somewhere doesn't mean it's not a logistical base.

Edit: I posted this before reading the Article... ;)
Eutrusca
10-10-2005, 17:20
Why are you so surprised? Just because they haven't been pulling things off somewhere doesn't mean it's not a logistical base.
I suppose. But the way the article is written, it seems they're not limiting themselves to just a "logistical base." :(
Sierra BTHP
10-10-2005, 17:22
It stands to reason that if you're in a country that has open borders, and there are any immigrants or tourists from Middle Eastern countries, or from places like Kosovo, Chechnya, Indonesia, or the Phillipines, or anyone in your country who has relatives and friends from those places, you probably have at least one group in your country.

Probably.
The Black Forrest
10-10-2005, 17:23
Not surprised. Hell in the Netherlands you can take your life in your hands if you dare say anything unkind about Islam.

The Van Gough murder and that minister that had to go into hiding.....
Laerod
10-10-2005, 17:35
I suppose. But the way the article is written, it seems they're not limiting themselves to just a "logistical base." :(Well, a logistical base is usually what comes after a money laundering operation. We had the "Caliph of Cologne" in Germany that propagated a violent overthrow of the German government to replace it with an islamic caliphate. He was a political refugee from Turkey (and he's been sent back to be tried for treason now that Turkey cleaned its human rights record a bit).
A lot of these people are persecuted in their home countries and are thus political refugees with some valid claims to refuge in states such as Belgium or the Netherlands. That's how they make it over.
Tactical Grace
10-10-2005, 17:49
The European Union is more than just a free trade area, it has completely open borders, you can drive or take a train from one country to another without really noticing when exactly you have crossed over, like driving across a stateline in the US, except at some point, you just notice that the signs are in a different language, or the same language but have different designs.

So if people are going to get together to perform terrorist acts somewhere, there is no real need for them to be there, any recruits can be kept in their original surroundings, and indeed this is the preferred option as this will attract no suspicion.

So the fact that they were residents of Belgium implies no hostility towards Belgium, it simply means it was convenient for them to stay there while they 'worked from home'.
The Blaatschapen
10-10-2005, 18:29
Not surprised. Hell in the Netherlands you can take your life in your hands if you dare say anything unkind about Islam.

The Van Gough murder and that minister that had to go into hiding.....

That wasn't a minister but it were 2 MPs that had to hide.
Psychotic Mongooses
10-10-2005, 18:33
It stands to reason that if you're in a country that has open borders, and there are any immigrants or tourists from Middle Eastern countries, or from places like Kosovo, Chechnya, Indonesia, or the Phillipines, or anyone in your country who has relatives and friends from those places, you probably have at least one group in your country.

Probably.

Or, if you have a massive and mostly unguarded land border *cough*Canada/US*cough*
;)
The South Islands
10-10-2005, 18:38
Or, if you have a massive and mostly unguarded land border *cough*Canada/US*cough*
;)

What, its not like the canadians are going to start flooding across the border, and suicide bomb malls in the US, or something like that.
Psychotic Mongooses
10-10-2005, 18:43
What, its not like the canadians are going to start flooding across the border, and suicide bomb malls in the US, or something like that.

And its not like the Belgians are going to start bombing Europe either....

I was referring to the ease that people can cross a large land border into another. A cell gets into Canada over a long period of time unnoticed and it can slip into the US via the unguarded vastness that is the Canadian/US border.
New Burmesia
10-10-2005, 18:46
If I was a terrorist, I wouldn't be staying in a third world country (too obvious) the middle east (too obvious) or the country that's specifically looking out for me (no way)

So it's not totally suprising. Let's hope the Belgians catch them and put their asses in jail.
Eutrusca
10-10-2005, 18:56
If I was a terrorist, I wouldn't be staying in a third world country (too obvious) the middle east (too obvious) or the country that's specifically looking out for me (no way)

So it's not totally suprising. Let's hope the Belgians catch them and put their asses in jail.
The Belgian police seem to have quite a bit on the ball. Perhaps the homogeneity of the country is one reason. An Arab would stand out like a sore thumb! :D
Syniks
10-10-2005, 19:18
The Belgian police seem to have quite a bit on the ball. Perhaps the homogeneity of the country is one reason. An Arab would stand out like a sore thumb! :D
Why do you think they shifted to "homegrowns" in England? :mad:
Tactical Grace
10-10-2005, 19:22
The Belgian police seem to have quite a bit on the ball. Perhaps the homogeneity of the country is one reason. An Arab would stand out like a sore thumb! :D
Well I would certainly hope that in line with the liberal European tradition, the police would be colourblind. :)
Syniks
10-10-2005, 19:27
Well I would certainly hope that in line with the liberal European tradition, the police would be colourblind. :)
Yep. Helga the blonde Grandmother and her attack grandbaby strikes again!
Tactical Grace
10-10-2005, 19:33
Yep. Helga the blonde Grandmother and her attack grandbaby strikes again!
Hey, if we discard the values we are supposed to be protecting, what is the point in even trying (albeit in a half-assed manner) to win?
Fass
10-10-2005, 19:38
Pfft. Everyone knows Belgium doesn't really exist. (http://zapatopi.net/belgium/) It's just a left-wing conspiracy.
The Black Forrest
10-10-2005, 19:48
That wasn't a minister but it were 2 MPs that had to hide.

Whoops. Thanks for the correction.
Eutrusca
10-10-2005, 19:58
Pfft. Everyone knows Belgium doesn't really exist. (http://zapatopi.net/belgium/) It's just a left-wing conspiracy.
LOL! Pithy as always! :D
Syniks
10-10-2005, 21:08
Hey, if we discard the values we are supposed to be protecting, what is the point in even trying (albeit in a half-assed manner) to win?
Well, given that it bodes not well even in Sweden...

MEMRI TV (http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=875) has clips from an interview on Hizballah’s Al Manar TV with Ahmad Rami, the head of “Radio Islam” in Sweden, who openly states that he hates Jews, not “Zionists.”
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/MEMRI-84022.jpg

Ahmad Rami: Today, the Westerners harbor great respect for Hizbullah in their souls.

Host: In public opinion?

Ahmad Rami: Yes, in public opinion. They respect Hizbullah because it fights the Jihad.

Host: Do you mean in Sweden or Europe in general?

Ahmad Rami: Europe in general. The greatest author of Sweden, Jan Myrdal, said to me: “You Muslims may need our support, but we need your Jihad. Otherwise, whom will we support?” If there is no Jihad and resistance, who will the free people in the West support? There are free people in the West.

[...]

The Zionist control of the media imposes a kind of media terrorism and hypocrisy in such a way that many Swedes have a public opinion which they express on radio and TV. If he wants to live a normal life and have work, he must claim to be Israel’s friend and the enemy of Israel’s enemies. But when you talk to regular Swedes, and even authors, privately, they are all against Israel and against the Zionist occupation. Nevertheless, If Israel finds itself in danger and if we become stronger than it, no Westerner would come to its defense.

The Jews in the West - and this has become a tradition - have 100% complete control of the media, of the political parties, the trade unions, and the publishing houses. They politically control all the parties, from right to left.

[...]

Ahmad Rami: Yes. In the West today... For example, I, in Sweden, am fighting for freedom of speech for everybody in Sweden. In Germany I told them that now... I was asked: What is your Jihad? Why are you fighting? I told them: I am fighting so that the Swedes will have the same rights as the Jews in Sweden. I am fighting so that the Swedes will have the same rights as the Jews. The Jews in Sweden, Germany, France, and America have rights that even the citizens of those countries do not have.

[...]

As far as I’m concerned, Judaism is not a religion. Judaism is a criminal and dangerous mafia.

Nope. No lunatic hatred there... :rolleyes:
Eutrusca
10-10-2005, 21:12
Well, given that it bodes not well even in Sweden...

MEMRI TV (http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=875) has clips from an interview on Hizballah’s Al Manar TV with Ahmad Rami, the head of “Radio Islam” in Sweden, who openly states that he hates Jews, not “Zionists.”
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/MEMRI-84022.jpg

Nope. No lunatic hatred there... :rolleyes:
SIGH! When will the Israelis and the Palestinians ever learn to leave each other alone? :(
Syniks
10-10-2005, 21:16
SIGH! When will the Israelis and the Palestinians ever learn to leave each other alone? :(
But that interview wasn't about Israelis & Palis - It was the talking head from Sweden's "Radio Islam". It's Muslim vs. "Jewish Conspiracy" - In Sweden.
Lotus Puppy
10-10-2005, 21:17
This isn't surprising to me. Islamofascism has been a problem in Europe for the past thirty years, but unlike in the US, where it is an external threat, it is an internal problem in Europe. The cell that planned the 9/11 attacks, for instance, was in Hamburg. That makes it all the scarrier.
Eutrusca
10-10-2005, 21:24
But that interview wasn't about Israelis & Palis - It was the talking head from Sweden's "Radio Islam". It's Muslim vs. "Jewish Conspiracy" - In Sweden.
Yeah, I know that. However, he made reference repeatedly to Hizbullah, yes?
Eutrusca
10-10-2005, 21:31
This isn't surprising to me. Islamofascism has been a problem in Europe for the past thirty years, but unlike in the US, where it is an external threat, it is an internal problem in Europe. The cell that planned the 9/11 attacks, for instance, was in Hamburg. That makes it all the scarrier.
This has, however, been increasing in the US. This is just one example of an incident which never made the "mainstream" media:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content?020805fa_fact
Fass
10-10-2005, 21:37
Well, given that it bodes not well even in Sweden...

MEMRI TV (http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=875) has clips from an interview on Hizballah’s Al Manar TV with Ahmad Rami, the head of “Radio Islam” in Sweden, who openly states that he hates Jews, not “Zionists.”
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/MEMRI-84022.jpg
Nope. No lunatic hatred there... :rolleyes:

Ahmad Rami is an anti-semitic loon.
Syniks
10-10-2005, 21:55
Ahmad Rami is an anti-semitic loon.
With air time to spread anti-semitic lunacy and hatred in the name of Islam over the Swedish airwaves - in Arabic. Does this not play to the violent lunatics who would plan and execute terror? Despite his asertions, his brand of vitreol is not directed at converting or protecting Swedes... it makes no sense. The only people swayed by his crap are people who share his referents - i.e. Arab-Muslims... the ones who tend to blow things up when they get agitated enough.
Fass
10-10-2005, 22:03
With air time to spread anti-semitic lunacy and hatred in the name of Islam over the Swedish airwaves - in Arabic. Does this not play to the violent lunatics who would plan and execute terror? Despite his asertions, his brand of vitreol is not directed at converting or protecting Swedes... it makes no sense. The only people swayed by his crap are people who share his referents - i.e. Arab-Muslims... the ones who tend to blow things up when they get agitated enough.

Radio Islam has been shut down, IIRC. It's an Internet phenom now, and thus is difficult to shut down as Swedish law does not affect webpages outside Sweden.
The Holy Womble
10-10-2005, 22:15
With air time to spread anti-semitic lunacy and hatred in the name of Islam over the Swedish airwaves - in Arabic.
And English. Radio Islam has a website where they stockpile tons of anti-Semitic propaganda, including the complete Mein Kampf, a text titled "The Political Testament of Adolf Hitler" with extensive quotes on the "Jewish question", the complete text of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and Henry Ford's "The International Jew", some Holocaust denial stuff, some lists of quotes "by and about Jew" that the Stormfront regulars would find familiar... Well, you get the picture.
Armandian Cheese
10-10-2005, 22:15
Kind of kills the myth that Islamofascists are only retaliating against "oppressive political acts" now, doesn't it? The Belgians have been as anti-American and anti-Israel as possible for a European state, after all.
Syniks
10-10-2005, 22:39
Radio Islam has been shut down, IIRC. It's an Internet phenom now, and thus is difficult to shut down as Swedish law does not affect webpages outside Sweden.
Good for you (Swedish Govt.) :)
Fass
10-10-2005, 23:34
Good for you (Swedish Govt.) :)

You should actually praise the French one as well, because they in 2000 fined Rami a considerable amount for his agitation.
Syniks
11-10-2005, 00:07
You should actually praise the French one as well, because they in 2000 fined Rami a considerable amount for his agitation.
Good for the Frogs too! :p
Swimmingpool
11-10-2005, 00:15
COMMENTARY: A terror network in Belgium ( yes, Belgium! ) lends credence to the "Caliphatists" theory of worldwide Islam's warlike approach to other countries, IMHO. Your thoughts?

Belgium surprises you? There are Islamist cells being busted all the time in almost all European countries. Belgium also has a significant Muslim population.

Yes, there is a global movement of jihadists. It is real, people.
Syniks
11-10-2005, 00:20
Belgium surprises you? There are Islamist cells being busted all the time in almost all European countries. Belgium also has a significant Muslim population.

Yes, there is a global movement of jihadists. It is real, people.Shh. You will upset CAIR. :rolleyes:
British Jimmy
11-10-2005, 02:27
Its not the American's fault this time, that the Liberal European countries are letting Arab's into the countyr wanting to be Arabs and not Belgian or freach, etc.
Eutrusca
11-10-2005, 02:41
Good for the Frogs too! :p
Heh heh heh! You said "frogs!" He heh! He heh! :D