NationStates Jolt Archive

Personally, I think it is stupid of the American gov't. to send money overseas for the earthquake disaster that recently struck the Mid-East. Here lately I've been hearing of how they're going to run out of money to help in rebuilding New Orleans. Well.... maybe we'd have the money if we didn't send it all over the world. It's a selfish opinion but I just feel the US should concentrate on issues at home, not everywhere else in the world.

Personally, I think it is stupid of the American gov't. to send money overseas for the earthquake disaster that recently struck the Mid-East. Here lately I've been hearing of how they're going to run out of money to help in rebuilding New Orleans. Well.... maybe we'd have the money if we didn't send it all over the world. It's a selfish opinion but I just feel the US should concentrate on issues at home, not everywhere else in the world.

Go You!

Yeah... I gave myself a hi-five after I posted it

*High Fives Roguing Rogues*

We should do away with foreign aid entirely. All it does its helps to enrich the coffers of corrupt despots. Look at Mobutu Sese Seko, for example. During his reign, he was given $860,000,000 by the U.S., in addition to untold millions by other Western countries. He amassed a fabulous fortune, owned dozens of mansions and estates around the world, and lived like a king while severe poverty, disease, starvation, and illiteracy devastated his people. Toward the end of his rule, inflation was 9,800%, GDP per capita was lower than it was prior to independence, and copper production, etc. was only a fraction of what it was during the previous decade.

We should do away with foreign aid entirely. All it does its helps to enrich the coffers of corrupt despots. Look at Mobutu Sese Seko, for example. During his reign, he was given $860,000,000 by the U.S., in addition to untold millions by other Western countries. He amassed a fabulous fortune, owned dozens of mansions and estates around the world, and lived like a king while severe poverty, disease, starvation, and illiteracy devastated his people. Toward the end of his rule, inflation was 9,800%, GDP per capita was lower than it was prior to independence, and copper production, etc. was only a fraction of what it was during the previous decade.

I went to pakistan last year after me and some school mates won a competition making a website about some aspect of Pakistan.

I met Gen. Pervez Mushariff, The (then) Prime Minister AND the GOvernor of the Northwest Frontier Province. It wasn't a 'handshake and walk off' meeting either. We had a buffet lunch with Gen. Mushariff, and were able to talk to him freely about anything we wanted - and we did. And I can tell you now that Pakistan is now more or less corrupt than Britain, the US or any other nation in the western world.

Pakistan is an emerging democracy undergoing reform - not a corrupt tinpot dictatorship like many seem to think.

And I know that Pakistan needs this money. Yes the cities are becoming prosperous (although not the level of the west) it is still a relatively poor country, and the areas hit are some of the remotest and least developed. Pakistan needs money to make sure that further public constructions are earthquake-proof and a disaster like this never happens again. This disaster is as bad as Katrina, yet noone questioned aid to New Orleans. 20,000 kids have died at least - do you really think that one african dictator is enough justification not to do anything because abroad.

And if you do think that the West is perfect, look at what Tom DeLay has been accused of - and which UK ex prime minister is being questioned over the issue!

Foreign aid and the removal of trade barriers are vital to the development of poorer countries - and believe me, we will be better off for it.

And in the case of Mobutu Sese Seko there WAS NO AID it was LOANS. Loans do nothing. They make things worse. It did nothing to write off the debt that capitalism has created, neither did it do anything to make life better.

Perhaps if people weren't starving bacause their country has no money since it is exported through loan repayments and Transnational Corporations and unable to make money through industrial subsidies and tarriffs - and indeed corrupt dictators, perhaps people will be able to focus on democracy rather than which family member might die next. But back to the point - Pakistan is not like this. Other nations are, but be assured, Pakistan isn't.

You can take your right-wing nonsense elsewhere. I've been to Pakistan and done things Presidents, Prime Ministers and Queens could never do, and I know different - and oppose vehemently with every moraf fibre in my body any attempt to stop justice for those less fortunate than ourselves.

(PS If anyones interested in my trip, look at the Experience Paksitan website. Also, any UK secondary school student can enter.)

I went to pakistan last year after me and some school mates won a competition making a website about some aspect of Pakistan.

I met Gen. Pervez Mushariff, The (then) Prime Minister AND the GOvernor of the Northwest Frontier Province. It wasn't a 'handshake and walk off' meeting either. We had a buffet lunch with Gen. Mushariff, and were able to talk to him freely about anything we wanted - and we did. And I can tell you now that Pakistan is now more or less corrupt than Britain, the US or any other nation in the western world.

Pakistan is an emerging democracy undergoing reform - not a corrupt tinpot dictatorship like many seem to think.

And I know that Pakistan needs this money. Yes the cities are becoming prosperous (although not the level of the west) it is still a relatively poor country, and the areas hit are some of the remotest and least developed. Pakistan needs money to make sure that further public constructions are earthquake-proof and a disaster like this never happens again. This disaster is as bad as Katrina, yet noone questioned aid to New Orleans. 20,000 kids have died at least - do you really think that one african dictator is enough justification not to do anything because abroad.

And if you do think that the West is perfect, look at what Tom DeLay has been accused of - and which UK ex prime minister is being questioned over the issue!

Foreign aid and the removal of trade barriers are vital to the development of poorer countries - and believe me, we will be better off for it.

And in the case of Mobutu Sese Seko there WAS NO AID it was LOANS. Loans do nothing. They make things worse. It did nothing to write off the debt that capitalism has created, neither did it do anything to make life better.

Perhaps if people weren't starving bacause their country has no money since it is exported through loan repayments and Transnational Corporations and unable to make money through industrial subsidies and tarriffs - and indeed corrupt dictators, perhaps people will be able to focus on democracy rather than which family member might die next. But back to the point - Pakistan is not like this. Other nations are, but be assured, Pakistan isn't.

You can take your right-wing nonsense elsewhere. I've been to Pakistan and done things Presidents, Prime Ministers and Queens could never do, and I know different - and oppose vehemently with every moraf fibre in my body any attempt to stop justice for those less fortunate than ourselves.

(PS If anyones interested in my trip, look at the Experience Paksitan website. Also, any UK secondary school student can enter.)
*High-fives New Burmesia*

*snip*

I disagree with you in very concept. Why is it the responsibility of the Western/First-world/Rich nations to give money to the poor nations?

I disagree with you in very concept. Why is it the responsibility of the Western/First-world/Rich nations to give money to the poor nations?
Because they can.

Besides, you can't treat a nation like any other bum and say "Go find a real job!"

Because they can.

Besides, you can't treat a nation like any other bum and say "Go find a real job!"

I ask again, why is it the responsibility of rich nations to assist poor nations?

I ask again, why is it the responsibility of rich nations to assist poor nations?
For the good of mankind, of course.

I disagree with you in very concept. Why is it the responsibility of the Western/First-world/Rich nations to give money to the poor nations?

Perhaps people's lives?

We have the power of life and death over billions of people. The US government is helping people in New Orleans, no? So why can't we do something?

My reason is simply because I can do something.

I could just have easily been born in the DR Congo, Nepal, Seirra Leone or any other host of poor countries. What have they done to diserve poverty? Is it some punishent for their past lives? Mother Nature doesn't like them?

I find it quite sad that people would rather fret over any last dollar, pound, euro that they can find when perople starve in their own country, let anone all over the globe.

I guess I feel responsible for more than just myself and my pocket-book.

What I like is that Kashmir (indeed, most of the area ravaged by the earthquake) is one of the most f-ed up areas in the world.

Full of militants slitting throats (they even took time after the earthquake to resume throat slitting) and killing people and blowing people up.

Living in the 19th century, with 10th century beliefs and AK-47s.

The place was screwed up before the earthquake - not that we could help them before, since they were so hostile they even killed Norwegian hostages.

Norwegians. I mean, who in the world could possibly be pissed off at Norway?

Before anyone helps any of these people, just think of what they're going to raise their children to do. Just think of how the adults will spend that money on suicide bombs. And IMHO, the fact that 30,000 were killed is just a fortunate coincidence.

I ask again, why is it the responsibility of rich nations to assist poor nations?because we are the USofA. we are generous with our friends and we also know what it's like to need aid.

It's always been in the US history to assist anyone who needs help, reguardless of what the homefront looks like. we send people, money, resources, anything that is needed, even if it's to a country that would rather kick us in the nether regions. we will send what we can, and ask for little in return.

Perhaps people's lives?

We have the power of life and death over billions of people. The US government is helping people in New Orleans, no? So why can't we do something?

My reason is simply because I can do something.

I could just have easily been born in the DR Congo, Nepal, Seirra Leone or any other host of poor countries. What have they done to diserve poverty? Is it some punishent for their past lives? Mother Nature doesn't like them?

I find it quite sad that people would rather fret over any last dollar, pound, euro that they can find when perople starve in their own country, let anone all over the globe.

I guess I feel responsible for more than just myself.
I do not object ot the very concept of helping other nations. I do object to the use of public money to help other nations. In my opinion, helping the peoples of other nations is a personal decision, and should be handled by private charities.

ya we know what its like to need aid but its not like we got any

we dont have the money to pay for pakistan and india when we have a huge deficit and cant pay for the hurricane damages

I do not object ot the very concept of helping other nations. I do object to the use of public money to help other nations. In my opinion, helping the peoples of other nations is a personal decision, and should be handled by private charities.

Why not? Private charities do not have access to many of the resources that governents have - like the military for example. Remember these people in poverty don't exactly have a choice. It won't be a problem for most people if the tax burden is put on the wealthy few - surely the well-off can spare a couple of quid without destroying the winderful capitalist 'incentive'.

Other countries need more than a few private charities. The only way to ensure money is through governments - and certainatly the only way to ensure removilfg trade barriers is through governments. And government aid can also be a great bargaining tool to bring democracy to hellp prevent coruuption.

And government aid can also be a great bargaining tool to bring democracy to hellp prevent coruuption.

Yes, we all know how the Oil For Food program really helped to prevent corruption...

ya we know what its like to need aid but its not like we got any

we dont have the money to pay for pakistan and india when we have a huge deficit and cant pay for the hurricane damages

So why is Bush giving tax cuts to oil companies? If he's got a defecit, why doesn't he raise taxes? Perhaps cutting out the massive military budget (NMD costs $53billion) could help?

However, it's not my place to critisize US domestic policy. Just suggestions that he might find helpful :D

So why is Bush giving tax cuts to oil companies? If he's got a defecit, why doesn't he raise taxes? Perhaps cutting out the massive military budget (NMD costs $53billion) could help?

However, it's not my place to critisize US domestic policy. Just suggestions that he might find helpful :D

Raising taxes is very unpopular.

Yes, we all know how the Oil For Food program really helped to prevent corruption...

The UN shouldn't have done that. I agree. But subsuqently giving up all attempts to help other countries based on the oil for food programme seems insanity. Why not use the lessons learned (important ones) to make sure that it doesn't happen again.

Perhaps if we reformed the UN so it was more accountable and had it's paperwork opened, such corruption will be more difficult and not hapopen again.

Raising taxes is very unpopular.

In Britain, the War in Iraq was unpopular, but the Government did it. Raising taxes is never going to be a top spot in any manifesto, but if a goverment was hosest about it, perhaps people wouldn't mind.

And anyways, what's the alternative. He's lowered corporate tax (apparently) and subsidises oil. He needs money from somewhere. Thus tax. Logic dictates that if yoiu spend more, you need to have more coming in.

Anyways, this is off-topic.

The UN shouldn't have done that. I agree. But subsuqently giving up all attempts to help other countries based on the oil for food programme seems insanity. Why not use the lessons learned (important ones) to make sure that it doesn't happen again.

Perhaps if we reformed the UN so it was more accountable and had it's paperwork opened, such corruption will be more difficult and not hapopen again.

1. Doing anything through a government is an invitation to corruption, especially if direct transfer of funds is involved.
2. Governments will also withhold tangible aid (food, water, medicine, etc) from people they don't like in their own country. And will provide it to other people for other reasons (to Islamic militants, for instance, for logistical support).
3. See the remarks by Melkor in another thread - why do people seem to believe that if only we gave governments more money, something better would happen?

As governments go, the US has a crapload of money. But do you still see corruption in the US government? Fraud? Waste? Abuse?

Don't make me laugh. The residents of Pakistani Kashmir are believers in a 10th century way of life - let them die one. Our interference will incur nothing down the road except wrath at having transformed their lives into something more comfortable - and more modern.

To those who are thinking of giving money/aid...

A word of caution.

Be careful whom you are giving money to.

It is now reported that many terrorist training camps have been levelled. Especially those of Lashkar-e-Toiba, the most virulent of all groups operating in the region. Please note that Shehzad Tanweer and his fellow bombers of the London bombings were trained by this organization. Terrorist cells of this org has been busted in US, France, UK and Australia.

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=79701
Lashkar faces quake fury: ‘many killed, many trapped’

ZEESHAN HAIDER

ISLAMABAD, OCTober 9 Scores of activists from an Islamist charity linked to a banned Pakistani militant organisation died in the devastating earthquake that struck Pakistan’s border with India at the weekend.

The militant group, Lashkar-e-Taiba, was outlawed by Pakistan in January 2002, a month after its fighters were accused of taking part in an attack on the Indian Parliament.

A spokesman for Jamat-ud-Dawa, a group drawn from the ranks of Lashkar, said the charity’s mosques, hospitals, schools and Islamic seminaries were obliterated in yesterday’s earthquake that killed more than 20,000 people.

‘‘Many of our members have been killed. They are in scores while several others are still trapped under the rubble,’’ the spokesman said today

The spokesman, who did not want to be identified, said the Taiba hospital run by Jamat-ud-Dawa in Muzaffarabad, capital of Pakistani Kashmir, and several of its mosques and offices were destroyed.

Pakistani current affairs magazine, The Herald, reported a few months ago that militant groups were re-establishing training camps in the same area of Kashmir and North West Frontier Province that has been hit hardest by the earthquake.

India has also complained of increased militant activity in Jammu and Kashmir over the summer months, though militants have taken heavy casualties trying to sneak across.

The Lashkar is regarded as one of the most organised militantoutfits, and analysts believe the Pakistan government has not cracked down as hard on it as it has done on others. Reuters

http://www.dailypioneer.com/searchit2.asp?main_variable=Nation&file_name=NT3.TXT
Quake wipes out Pak terror camps

Pramod Kumar Singh/ New Delhi

The devastating earthquake that swept across Pakistan and north India on Saturday morning also brought bad news for the various terrorist camps operating from Pakistan occupied Kashmir (PoK) and Balkote area in North West Frontier Province (NFWP).

These camps were part of the 85 terrorist training centres being operated by the Pakistan's Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) along the Line of Control (LoC) and were not closed by Pakistan Government despite India providing clinching evidence.

Intelligence sources said that the terrorist camps at Chakothi, Muzaffarabad, Kahuta and Bagh were totally obliterated. Equipped with ultra-modern gadgets and arms to train terrorists for waging Jehad against Indian Armed Forces in Jammu and Kashmir, the camps were source of perennial infiltration into the Kashmir Valley. All these camps fell within the 10 km radius of the epicentre of the Saturday earthquake.

Muzaffarabad and Chakothi terror camps, responsible for large scale infiltration from Tangdhar and Uri sectors are reported to be totally vanquished. There are reports that the camps at Kotli and Nikial have also been damaged. However, there was no immediate news about the the camps at Palani, Palak and Kund and the camps at Samani, Dudhinial and Fagosh hosting cadres of Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM), Laskhar-e-Taiyyeba (LeT), Hizb-ul Mujahideen (HUM), Al-Badr, Harkat-ul-Mujahideen and Al-Barq.

Intelligence agencies intercepted a wireless message from across the border which said that a building housing Tehriq-ul Mujahideen (TuM) around Muzzafarbad was extensively damaged and some of its cadres were buried in the debris. LeT's Muzzafarabad office was also reportedly completely destroyed. Harkat's training centre and Balkote and Batrasi, JeM's camp at Auttuck, Al-Badar's at Oghi, Lashker's at Mansera and recruitment camp of HuM at Jungle-Magal had been damaged to a great extent.

Balkote area in NWFP which played host to hordes of terrorist training camps has also suffered huge losses. The earthquake has also caused losses to terrorist camps functiong from Manshera region. Manshera region is surrounded by dense forest areas and boasts of scores of madarsas, which also function as training camps.

The jihadi orgs are sure to start a collection drive in the name of charity. Please be careful whom you are giving charity to. You may be inadvertantly funding the death of a civilian in their jihad campaign.

Give only to internation aid agencies who have transparency and accountability that you can see where your money is going and who is handling it.


Oh and New Burmesia

I met Gen. Pervez Mushariff, The (then) Prime Minister AND the GOvernor of the Northwest Frontier Province.

Musharraf was never Prime minister or for that matter governor of anything.

He is the COAS (Chief of army staff) and the president of Pakistan. He promised he will give away one of the posts in 2006/7 but he has now gone back on his promise citing "national interests". Which flies in the face of your

Pakistan is an emerging democracy undergoing reform - not a corrupt tinpot dictatorship like many seem to think.

and regarding this

Perhaps if people weren't starving bacause their country has no money since it is exported through loan repayments and Transnational Corporations and unable to make money through industrial subsidies and tarriffs - and indeed corrupt dictators, perhaps people will be able to focus on democracy rather than which family member might die next. But back to the point - Pakistan is not like this.

Yeah, but nobody forced Pakistan to spend all their money on the army.

FY Health Education Defence

% of GNP % of GNP % of GNP

1990-91 0.7 2.1 3.0

1991-92 0.7 2.2 6.2

1992-93 0.7 2.2 6.5

1993-94 0.7 2.2 5.8

1994-95 0.6 2.4 5.3

1995-96 0.6 2.4 5.4

1996-97 0.8 2.5 5.4

1997-98 0.7 2.3 4.9

1998-99 0.7 2.2 4.8

Source:Pakistan Economic Survey, 1998-99. Current expenditure are also on the higher side. As a percentage of GNP, Pakistan is among the top spenders on military in the world.

To those who are thinking of giving money/aid...

A word of caution.

Be careful whom you are giving money to.

It is now reported that many terrorist training camps have been levelled. Especially those of Lashkar-e-Toiba, the most virulent of all groups operating in the region. Please note that Shehzad Tanweer and his fellow bombers of the London bombings were trained by this organization. Terrorist cells of this org has been busted in US, France, UK and Australia.


My point exactly.

Don't make me laugh. The residents of Pakistani Kashmir are believers in a 10th century way of life - let them die one. Our interference will incur nothing down the road except wrath at having transformed their lives into something more comfortable - and more modern.

It is true that the Muzaffarabad (the epicentre) was a terrorist haven and jihadis were crawling all over the whole place.

I am all for aiding those in need, but knowing the Paki administration, I know for sure that money given in good faith will be funnelled to restart the terrorist infrastructure.

Why is it that the Paki administration is refusing aid in terms of manpower, but only interms of money and material?

They know that if they allow foreign rescuers, the terrorist infrastructure will become publicised and it will be hard to play the plausible deniability game anymore.

They have refused to allow the Indian army to help when the Indian army is in the best position to help, with our knowledge of the terrain, our expertise in handling disasters, our trained manpower and equipments and our proximity to the area.

In certain areas, the Indian army is just a few Kms from trapped survivors and the Paki govt will rather let the survivors die than take our help.

They are also afraid about the goodwill that will be generated towards India, if they allow India to help.

They would rather have the people dead.

An eyewitness account

http://southasia.oneworld.net/article/view/120179/1/1893

Eyewitness account of Pakistan earthquake
Mohammad Shehzad
10 October 2005

Islamabad: On Saturday when the devastating earthquake shook earth and rained death and destruction all around, Pakistani journalist Mohammad Shehzad was keenly observing the aftermath rescue and relief operations in Islamabad, the capital city of Pakistan. Here is a glimpse of Pakistani life and how it was shook up by the earthquake.

What he saw mirrors lack of concern for human life. His eyewitness account narrates how unprepared people are to face disasters. Apathetic people and irresponsive administration is what complicates matters every time a natural calamity hits any place. Latest reports say that around 18000 people have already lost their lives in Pakistan and Pak Administrated Kashmir. The toll is likely to climb up to 30,000 and even more. Because there are still some areas like the Northern Province where no rescue and relief operation has been launched so far. Reason: no contact has been established with it till now

I was sleeping in my bedroom. All of a sudden I felt strong jerks. It was not difficult to ascertain that it was a horrible earthquake. At that time my wife was washing clothes. Sensing danger I hurriedly went out of my house asking my wife to leave the premises immediately. I was surprised to see many people already out in the street. I saw women in their night dresses desperately outside my house. Such a sight was quite uncommon as I live in a place that is highly conservation, Malpur a town in Rawalpindi, which is close to Islamabad. The first jolt continued for more than 2.5 minutes and shattered everything around. My car was in the street and it was bouncing!

When my house stopped shaking, I stepped in. The electricity had gone off and it was restored after half an hour. At around 9:30 am, I received a call from Abdur Rehman Makki, the number two man at Jamatud Dawa (the former Lashkar-e-Taiba, which is a jihadi outfit that is waging jihad in Kashmir.) Makki was told me that the Margall Tower in Islamabad has completely collapsed and he is at the site. He also told me that the police and the administration were not cooperating with his outfit; he was there with ambulances and other relief work. Soon after I drove to the tower.

The road to the tower was completely cordoned off. Since the police said people were creating hurdles, I had to park my car in a greenbelt and walk for three km. When I reached the spot what I saw was that one tower consisting of eleven floors had collapsed, it came down in big pieces. I saw people's belonging - clothes, mattresses, toys, etc scattered here and there. I was disappointed to see that there were people inside the debris but the administration of Islamabad did not have proper equipment and machinery to rescue them.

'We simply don't have the capacity to rescue these people. We don't have the sort of cranes and heavy equipment needed to lift the columns and thus save the people. In fact, we don't have the capacity to deal with any such disaster,' these were the words of Syed Mushahid Hussain, the Secretary General of the ruling Pakistan Muslim League who was present on the spot. Nilofar Bakhtiar, Advisor to the Prime Minister of Pakistan Shaukat Aziz Khan on Women Affairs had this to say, "We don't have any plan to fight with any such catastrophe. To some extent, we have ability to fight with the floods and that too by sending boats" There was helpless everywhere.

The statements of various government officials attest this. "I think the army has moved very quickly. You can see the heavy cranes outside that army had sent from Tarbela. But the problem is the pillars and columns are too heavy and as such these cranes cannot lift them,' said Senator Tariq Azeem who is also Minister of State for Overseas Pakistanis. Azeem words that followed are a sad commentary on the state of preparedness here with regard to managing disasters. 'Three years ago, a three storey building, Commercial Plaza, collapsed in Rawalpindi. Six people were killed as a consequence of the building collapse.

It took the Rawalpindi administration four days to remove the debris and rescue the people. So, if you compare this incident with that one, you could safely say that it will probably take more than a week to provide relief unless rescue work is carried out swiftly,' Azeem.said further. Mali Riaz is a real estate tycoon in Islamabad. He has developed a big town close to Islamabad called Behria Town. He had sent his heavy machinery for relief and rescue but the problem is there wasn't enough space around the tower to carry out relief work
People are angry. They feel the administration is not moving efficiently on the relief work. General Musharraf reached the spot along with his Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz at 3:30 pm. His arrival brought the relief work to a halt. "Mr Musharraf, please leave as soon as possible. Your people are not letting us work," shouted an angry man from the crowd and Musharraf did not waste a minute in disappearing from the scene. Meantime I spotted a friend. His uncle had jumped out from the 4th floor but couldn't survive and died on the spot.

There were more than 200 people in the tower at the time of the earthquake.
The news regarding other areas too mirrors a state of helplessness. More than 1500 have been reported dead in the Northern Areas by the state media. As of now, the estimated death toll all over the country is more than 2000. The tower that had collapsed had 20 apartments of 4 bedrooms each. A shopkeeper working in the vicinity of the tower had this to say. "From the day one of its construction I have been keenly watching the way it was being built. Construction work on it started 10 years ago. Very substandard material was used in its construction. On completion the apartments were sold at exorbitant rates. Within a year, cracks and seepage developed in the tower apartments. Despite the evident flaws, the management did not take care of repairs,' says Mubashir Hassan, a businessmen in F-10 (the place where the tower was located).

At the time of tower construction the Capital Development Authority (CDA) that manages Islamabad had in its rules that 50 per cent area should be left without construction. The contractor of this tower Mr Ramzan utilised the 50 per cent area of the plot for construction and left the remaining half open. After sometime the CDA changed its rules. They increased the construction limit from 50 to 75 per cent and subsequently the contractor built this tower which has now collapsed.

F-10 is surrounded by many tall towers. Only Margalla Towers collapsed. Mubasshir says questionably, "Why the other buildings did no collapse? The reason is they were strong structures and were constructed properly. This tower did not have T-structure that would survive the jolts. The contractor should be brought to the book."

Though he advocates that contractors and owners of high buildings who violate rules should be brought to books, the history in Pakistan about such cases is such the contractors and owners are never brought to the book. They get away with the laws very easily.

In the aftermath of the tragedy the residents of other towers falling in the vicinity of the collapsed tower have vacated their apartments and are living in F-9 Fatima Jinnah Park (a huge public park). There are around 500 families in the park. "We fear to go inside. Because the jolts of the earthquake are still being felt. We fear that our tower too might collapse," said Mrs Jamal Nasir, a resident of Al Mustafa Towers.

By the time I visited the place, several relief agencies like Edhi, Rescue 15 had already arrived. I saw the jihadi outfits working very actively. The defunct Lashkar-e-Taiba (presently called Jamat ud Dawa) was the most active of them all. Dawa workers did not have good equipment but they were trying to using a heavy hammer to rescue the people stranded inside.

Dawa's number two Makki was of the view that the earthquake was a punishment from Allah to his sinful people. "We have drifted away from the teachings of Islam and abandoned jihad. The people of Islamabad are corrupt to the bones. They are proud of their real estate property. God has taught them a lesson. We should open our eyes and seek Allah's forgiveness and come to the right path i.e. the path of jihad." He said.

According to the eyewitnesses, when the tower collapsed, the passersby started picking up the belongings of the people instead of helping them. Examples where people desperately tried to save their lives abound. My friend's name is Bilal Ahmad. His real uncle's name is Irfan Ahmad. He and several people like him tried to jump from their respective houses to save their lives. I met a boy Imran Ali by name. When he saw walls collapsing, he jumped from the 3rd floor of his house and broke his leg. Reaching the ground he collapsed and bled a lot. He is in the hospital. I met him there.

Unfortunately no one could jump successfully. Some jumped and died. So this was not a success. But some jumped and were wounded. Since they did not die, in that sense it was a successful escape. I just returned after completing my second trip to the affected site. It is now becoming difficult to carry out rescue work because the sun has set. The way relief work is going on it will take months to clear the rubble. People are removing pieces of stones with hands because there are no machines. I spoke to Major Ishaq of Engineering Corps. He says that if cranes were used, the pieces of roofs will fall on those who are stranded inside. The tower collapsed in such a way that there is space underneath two columns.

Meanwhile, the Assistant Commissioner of Islamabad, Zafar Iqbal, called me from his mobile and broke the news that he and his five family members are alive. Efforts are underway to rescue them. So far, five people have been rescued alive from the rubble. One person Ishaque blames the builder for the collapse. He says: 'The cracks had appeared in the building years ago but the owner kept on selling the apartments. He should be arrested and hanged in public." he said.

We are still experiencing the jolts. I have witnessed at least four stampedes. When the earthquake's spells start again, people think the other tower that has a slight tilt now will also fall. I saw people crying and running away with fear when the jolts were felt again. All the apartments in other towers have been vacated. But people are fearful.

It is my speculation that a very important person of the LeT was staying at the Margalla towers.

All the LeT higher ups were there doing rescue work. The interesting part is that both Musharraf and the PM Shaukat Aziz were there at very short notice.

Now LeT is recognised as a terrorist org by US and is "banned" in Pakistan. But the LeT cadres are free to operate as now seen.

This is a very unique opportunity to put an end to their operations and I would be goddamned to see them get easy money through charity and start back their business of making children orphans and parents as childless.

More here

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshowbnews/msid-1259120,curpg-1.cms
Terror meets terror in PoK


NEW DELHI: Did Saturday's earthquake inflict collateral damage on Pakistan's infamous terrorist training camps? What impact will it have on PoK-based jehad in India? Intelligence and security analysts in IB, RAW and other agencies pored over this very possibility on Sunday with the latest intelligence inputs in the aftermath of the natural disaster.

This was after reports that the worst-hit were districts and villages with known terror camps in PoK. It was intensified after news reports quoted a Lashkar-e-Taiba spokesman as saying, "Many of our members have been killed. They are in scores, while several others are still trapped under the rubble."

But the cold assessment that emerged was clear: the earthquake will have no discernible impact on Pak-sponsored jehad in India. Home secretary V K Duggal refused to commit himself to any overt statement on Monday.

There are some reports of camps in areas like Kotli, Bagh, Nikial and Muzaffarabad in PoK being hit by the quake but since most of the jehadi training camps are makeshift ‘mobile' structures that can be translocated very quickly to evade scrutiny, it would not amount to much tangible loss.

"The camps have temporary structures to house jehadis. The training facilities are also rudimentary in the sense that the firing range for practice could be in a jungle nearby," said an official.

According to terrorism analyst Ajai Sahni, the December 26 tsunami washed away more than 2,000 known LTTE cadres from Sri Lanka. But even that has not diminished the Tamil Tigers.

Indian officials are now also concerned about the diversion of the flood of international aid to Pakistan in the aftermath of the earthquake. After 9/11, a series of international finance laws by the UN and US had effectively shut off the funding tap from Islamic charities, which were being used to fund jehad by outfits like Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Mohammed.

The earthquake opens Pakistan to funds from all manner of organisations in the world, and Indian officials fear that some of these may be diverted to oil the jehadi wheels again.

Besides, they say, despite a ceasefire call from Syed Salahuddin of the United Jihad Council, militants mounted a big infiltration bid on Sunday night trying to take advantage of the post-quake chaos.

However, it is equally true that for the immediate future Lashkar or Jaish cadres might occupy themselves recouping their strengths or rebuilding their camps.

And just to remind what we are dealing with here..

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshowbnews/1257980.cms
Terrorists kill 10 in Kashmir

JAMMU: Terrorists killed 10 people at three places in Rajouri district of Jammu and Kashmir on Sunday night, showing no change of heart despite a devastating earthquake having hit the state on Saturday.

While terrorists massacred five members of two Hindu families in Rajnagar in the Budhal area, four Hindus were killed in Gabbar village and one Muslim in Kulhar village.

Police said terrorists barged into two homes in Rajnagar village in Budhal, about 200 km north of Jammu, around 11 p.m. on Sunday, took hold of the inmates and killed them with sharp-edged weapons.

Budhal is the worst-hit area in Saturday's earthquake in which about 100 houses collapsed and 20 people sustained injuries.

Even an earthquake and death all around does not stop the jihad.

Even an earthquake and death all around does not stop the jihad.

In fact, they seem to take it as a message from God that they should be more ruthless and murderous.

In fact, they seem to take it as a message from God that they should be more ruthless and murderous.

Quite so. The above story involves this...

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1514605,000900010002.htm
A group of terrorists entered the residence of one Munshi Ram in Kandi village of Bhudal tehsil, had food and then killed the inmates by slitting their throats, police said

because we are the USofA. we are generous with our friends and we also know what it's like to need aid.

It's always been in the US history to assist anyone who needs help, reguardless of what the homefront looks like. we send people, money, resources, anything that is needed, even if it's to a country that would rather kick us in the nether regions. we will send what we can, and ask for little in return.
The heart of the US is in the right place, it's just that - starting wars don't exactly help too much. :D

people we need show the world that americans are not cold hard people
(like the Soviets were) We want to help. The War in Iraq is really good. More Iraqis have electricity and cars then ever before. Also now they have more of a chance. Saddam gassed his own people! Insurgents don't kill everyone just americans (no I don't support them I want them to work with america)

people we need show the world that americans are not cold hard people
(like the Soviets were) We want to help. The War in Iraq is really good. More Iraqis have electricity and cars then ever before. Also now they have more of a chance. Saddam gassed his own people! Insurgents don't kill everyone just americans (no I don't support them I want them to work with america)
Insurgents... do kill everyone.

So why is Bush giving tax cuts to oil companies? If he's got a defecit, why doesn't he raise taxes? Perhaps cutting out the massive military budget (NMD costs $53billion) could help?

However, it's not my place to critisize US domestic policy. Just suggestions that he might find helpful :D


Raiseing taxes is not the answer. Tax cuts stimulate the economy. The reason for the deficit is because of Clintons economics. The reason clinton had a good economy is because of Reaganomics. Trickle down economics

Insurgents... do kill everyone.
ok i'll give you that. but americans are weeding out insurgents.

bump

Personally i feel that we (U.S.) should aid all those who require it. Even if they are too arrogant to thank us and later criticize us for it. It is our duty to the world and i pray that if someone else had the power of the U.S. that they would do the same thing.

yes! thats what I mean!

So why is Bush giving tax cuts to oil companies? If he's got a defecit, why doesn't he raise taxes? Perhaps cutting out the massive military budget (NMD costs $53billion) could help?

However, it's not my place to critisize US domestic policy. Just suggestions that he might find helpful :D
He's not cutting taxes on oil, he is freezing them and deregulating the industry. Gas has been on a price rise for the past year, up a lot due to lack of production growth. The oil industry is way to regulated and controlled by enviro-freaks and the government and has been at a standstill for the past 30 years. Not a single refinery has been built in the past 30 years! What's wrong with that? If we want prices to drop, we need to increase production and liberate the economy. Raising taxes would only compound the problem, what needs to be done is a full strip down of all federal programs, so we can start from the ground up again with more efficient bare-bones government with only the key essential programs--no other wasteful or replicated or useless inefficient tax suckers.

Raising taxes would only compound the problem, what needs to be done is a full strip down of all federal programs, so we can start from the ground up again with more efficient bare-bones government with only the key essential programs--no other wasteful or replicated or useless inefficient tax suckers.
exactly!

bump

People gave you money for your hurricanes, and you're the richest country in the world.

Do you know why the US is really running out of money? New Orleans clean up is part of it but its the War in Iraq. US stays out of that stupid, misguided war, you save billions upon billions of dollars. Besides, if the US cuts out foreign aid, the next generation of extremist muslims just another reason to attack the United States and the West. The earth is like a body, if one part is infected or hurt, you fix it or the rest will start to feel the effects.

Besides, if the US cuts out foreign aid, the next generation of extremist muslims just another reason to attack the United States and the West.


Oh, please. As if they won't find another reason to attack us anyways. Half the terrorists (i.e. Bin Laden) are people the U.S. has helped in the past, so don't give me that crap.

As to the point of this thread...well, I don't see why we should send money... After all, God sent the earthquake to help the U.S. troops root out Bin Laden, who is reportedly hiding in the area.

Oh, please. As if they won't find another reason to attack us anyways. Half the terrorists (i.e. Bin Laden) are people the U.S. has helped in the past, so don't give me that crap.

As to the point of this thread...well, I don't see why we should send money... After all, God sent the earthquake to help the U.S. troops root out Bin Laden, who is reportedly hiding in the area.


God sent the earthquake? Thats such bullshit, I believe in God but he doesn't do stuff to "help" the good guys, look at all the starving people in the world, is God starving them? He must be, he sure as hell sent that Tsunami, oh wait, Bin Laden wasn't hiding in Indonesia or Thailand. Boy, he must have made a mistake there :rolleyes:

Oh, please. As if they won't find another reason to attack us anyways. Half the terrorists (i.e. Bin Laden) are people the U.S. has helped in the past, so don't give me that crap.

As to the point of this thread...well, I don't see why we should send money... After all, God sent the earthquake to help the U.S. troops root out Bin Laden, who is reportedly hiding in the area.


God sent the earthquake? Thats such bullshit, I believe in God but he doesn't do stuff to "help" the good guys, look at all the starving people in the world, is God starving them? He must be, he sure as hell sent that Tsunami, oh wait, Bin Laden wasn't hiding in Indonesia or Thailand. Boy, he must have made a mistake there :rolleyes:

God sent the earthquake? Thats such bullshit, I believe in God but he doesn't do stuff to "help" the good guys, look at all the starving people in the world, is God starving them? He must be, he sure as hell sent that Tsunami, oh wait, Bin Laden wasn't hiding in Indonesia or Thailand. Boy, he must have made a mistake there :rolleyes:

It's called sarcasm, look it up. I was making a comment on the al Qaeda claim that God sent hurricane Katrina to New Orleans to punish americans. :rolleyes:

Terrorism unabated

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1515233,000900010002.htm
LeT terrorist among 3 killed in Jammu & Kashmir

Three persons, including a terrorist of Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba outfit and a young woman, were killed and another girl injured in Jammu and Kashmir since Sunday night, a police spokesman said on Monday.

Farooq Ahmad Piswal, a terrorist belonging to LeT, was killed in an encounter with security forces at village Mujpathri in Pulwama district of south Kashmir early today, the spokesman said.

He said an AK rifle, a magazine and 27 rounds were recovered from slain terrorist.

Terrorists intruded into the house of one Rashid Rather at Panzat village of Qazigund in Anantnag district and shot dead his 19-year-old daughter Jasi Jan on Sunday night, the spokesman said.

Another group of terrorists entered the house of one Ghulam Rasool Bhat at Aroo-Mohanpora in Kulgam area of Anantnag on Sunday night and resorted to indiscriminate firing on the inmates, the spokesman said.

Bhat's son Nissar Ahmad was killed and he himself alongwith daughter Rohi Jan was critically injured, he added.

I hope that Pakistan stays a tin pot dictatorship for quite some time. Bring democracy to these people and they will vote for a nuclear war.

1. Doing anything through a government is an invitation to corruption, especially if direct transfer of funds is involved.

You mean like Haliburton, Iraq and the missing 8.8 billion USD?


2. Governments will also withhold tangible aid (food, water, medicine, etc) from people they don't like in their own country. And will provide it to other people for other reasons (to Islamic militants, for instance, for logistical support).

Yes, like how the money spent to rebuild New Orleans is pitiful compared to the amount used to fund the Iraq war isn't it? Oh, but the money isn't all being spent on the war. It just up and walked away on its own. I suppose that excuses everything.


As governments go, the US has a crapload of money. But do you still see corruption in the US government? Fraud? Waste? Abuse?


Enron. Haliburton. DeLay. Nixon. Fake reasons for war. War profiteering. Politics in general. Need I go on?


Don't make me laugh. The residents of Pakistani Kashmir are believers in a 10th century way of life - let them die one. Our interference will incur nothing down the road except wrath at having transformed their lives into something more comfortable - and more modern.

Apparently the US government has the same idea regarding its own citizens in times of disaster. Why else would they turn down all that aid during Katrina and have it burnt? So yes, stop the aid. But don't let me catch you whining for any the next time a disaster hits America.

At the end of the day, it merely happens to be that you just condemned every single person in the affected areas as a terrorist that should die. Can I use that logic on Americans then? Every single American as a clinic bombing fundamentalist who should die?

You wouldn't like that would you? But if you want to chuck stones, don't live in a glass house.

I went to pakistan last year after me and some school mates won a competition making a website about some aspect of Pakistan.

I met Gen. Pervez Mushariff, The (then) Prime Minister AND the GOvernor of the Northwest Frontier Province. It wasn't a 'handshake and walk off' meeting either. We had a buffet lunch with Gen. Mushariff, and were able to talk to him freely about anything we wanted - and we did. And I can tell you now that Pakistan is now more or less corrupt than Britain, the US or any other nation in the western world.

Pakistan is an emerging democracy undergoing reform - not a corrupt tinpot dictatorship like many seem to think.

And I know that Pakistan needs this money. Yes the cities are becoming prosperous (although not the level of the west) it is still a relatively poor country, and the areas hit are some of the remotest and least developed. Pakistan needs money to make sure that further public constructions are earthquake-proof and a disaster like this never happens again. This disaster is as bad as Katrina, yet noone questioned aid to New Orleans. 20,000 kids have died at least - do you really think that one african dictator is enough justification not to do anything because abroad.

And if you do think that the West is perfect, look at what Tom DeLay has been accused of - and which UK ex prime minister is being questioned over the issue!

Foreign aid and the removal of trade barriers are vital to the development of poorer countries - and believe me, we will be better off for it.

And in the case of Mobutu Sese Seko there WAS NO AID it was LOANS. Loans do nothing. They make things worse. It did nothing to write off the debt that capitalism has created, neither did it do anything to make life better.

Perhaps if people weren't starving bacause their country has no money since it is exported through loan repayments and Transnational Corporations and unable to make money through industrial subsidies and tarriffs - and indeed corrupt dictators, perhaps people will be able to focus on democracy rather than which family member might die next. But back to the point - Pakistan is not like this. Other nations are, but be assured, Pakistan isn't.

You can take your right-wing nonsense elsewhere. I've been to Pakistan and done things Presidents, Prime Ministers and Queens could never do, and I know different - and oppose vehemently with every moraf fibre in my body any attempt to stop justice for those less fortunate than ourselves.

(PS If anyones interested in my trip, look at the Experience Paksitan website. Also, any UK secondary school student can enter.)

Pakistan, not corrupt? On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being the most corrupt, 10 being the least corrupt, Pakistan scored a 2.1- lower than many African countries. And as for democratic, check www.freedomhouse.org, www.amnesty.org, etc.

And Mobutu received aid as well as loans.