NationStates Jolt Archive

And if its not then what will be beyon the universe? :confused:

When I think of the universe I think of a sphere containing the galaxies inside... But I know nothing of astro-physics so that's why I'm askin.

And if its not then what will be beyon the universe? :confused:
It is not infinite.

It is infinite

its just the space with in the universe is expanding

so infinity is getting bigger

but as infinty is anything bigger then the human mind can comprehend quite a lot of things are infinate

The universe may not be infinite but perhaps the multiverse is.

The part of the universe we can observe, according to most recent theories, is finite, so even if it is infinite, we may never notice.

Anyway, what would you consider an "infinite universe"? One with infinite empty space all around a finite number of galaxies? One with infinite (countable? more?) galaxies (stars, bodies)?

Everything revolves around the Earth. -_-

Its infinite, not indefinite , infinite!

As for the universe science has shown it to be round like a soccer ball. Outside our universe are more soccer balls (so to speak). There is no reason why it cannot all be infinite.

As for how large our current universe is, it might as well be infinite from our perspective. There is a funny song on this issue sung by a man is a pink suit after jumbing out of a refrigurator in Monty Pytons The Meaning of Life.

(start quote)
Whenever life gets you down, Mrs. Brown,
And things seem hard or tough.
When people are stupid, obnoxious or daft,
And you feel that you've had quite enough...
Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving.
Revolving at nine hundred miles an hour.
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A Sun that is the source of all our power.
The Sun and you and me, and all the stars that we can see,
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm at forty thousand miles an hour
Of the galaxy we call the Milky Way.
Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand light years side-to-side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us it's just three thousand light years wide.
We're thirty thousand lightyears from galactic central point.

We go 'round every two hundred million years.

And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.
The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz.
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know.
Twelve million miles a minute and that's the fastest speed there is.
A good estimate for the speed of light, the fastest speed there is.
So remember when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth!
A truth, no doubt...(end quote)

Afterwards the man tries to convince Mrs. Brown to donate her liver.

*has massive pannic attack* "dont..look..at..sky..oh..shit.." *falls down* i dont like this question.. it makes me think.. think = nooo good. I say it goes on.. and out there, there is the same exact thing, an earth.

And if its not then what will be beyon the universe? :confused:

As we all know, beyond the known limit of the universe lurks an evil horde of mutants led by an entity called 'The Machine' who has a nasty habit of fucking with our hero, Bren McGuire.

And ten points to anyone sad enough to spot the reference from a bearded gamer who remembers the Amiga.

There is nothing beyond the universe. Either it is infinite, or the space is crooked so that when you go far enough in any direction you end up where you started, without ever turning around (like when going around the earth).

It is not infinite.

Why?

Anyway, what would you consider an "infinite universe"? One with infinite empty space all around a finite number of galaxies?

Exactly.

The objective infinity of the universe has not been demonstrated, for obvious reasons, so it is impossible to say whether it truly is, based solely on our obervations of other galaxies. If you consider "finite" or "infinite" merely to mean the number of galaxies in the universe, then it is obviously finite, but that is an improper definition, as "infinity" could better be understood as "the space within which exists this finite number of planets, galaxies, etc." This space is infinite. (It would continue to be infinite, even if it were divided into a thousand demensions.)

well seeing as universe means everything is within it nothing can be outside the universe

if anything exists out side of what we think is the universe then it would be inside the universe as we'd have got it wrong about where the universe ended.

and if the universe is finite it is such a huge number in whatever you measure it in that the description would be useless as it would be too big to ever use.

Well, I wasn't implying that anything could exist outside of the universe; merely that the universe is infinite. But if something exists, it exists within the universe.

Suddenly there is silence as the evil emperor known as "THE MACHINE", half man, half robot, enters the airlock. "Be away with you" he commands his mutants, now drunk on their victory. "Back to the battle cruiser." The Machine surveys the carnage, steps forward and comes to a halt with one foot on the prone body of Ben McGuire. "Excellent." he says to himself. The Crew of the Avalon 1 are no more. Then, without any further hesitation, he turns and leaves the ship.
Can i have a cookie too?

And if its not then what will be beyon the universe? :confused:

I think you mean "Infinite"

infinite
n adjective
1 limitless in space, extent, or size. Øvery great in amount or degree.
2 Mathematics greater than any assignable quantity or countable number.


And no, the universe is not infinite, though in 3 dimensional space it is boundless. As it only started with the Big Bang 13-15 thousand million years ago it cannot be infinite. The property of being boundless means, in theory, if you keep going in a straight line you eventually come back to the point where you started.

What lies beyond our universe - nobody can ever know.

Can i have a cookie too?

You can have both. Check your nation page.

And no, the universe is not infinite, though in 3 dimensional space it is boundless. As it only started with the Big Bang 13-15 thousand million years ago it cannot be infinite. The property of being boundless means, in theory, if you keep going in a straight line you eventually come back to the point where you started.

What lies beyond our universe - nobody can ever know.

The time past since the Big Bang isn't really an indicator of infinity, only of . . . time past. The space within which exists our three-dimensional perspective is infinite. As I said, even if broken into a thousand dimensions, nothing can exist without the universe. So nothing lies beyond our universe, as "universe" means everything.

Try asking this question: did space exist before the Big Bang? How did the singularity expand if there was no space in which it could exist? Also, if the universe is finite, then why is it expanding? If there was a finite amount of space at the time of the Big Bang, then will the matter and energy in the universe hit some invisible wall that marks "the end of space"?

one thing I've always wondered is how can we tell its expanding (and don't say because things are moving away....)

all we have to go on is red shift in galexys

maybe they are just producing more red light wavelengths.

any physisists care to explain this (i'm a Geneticist and biochemist)

I'm an historian, but this has become a hobby. :p

I don't believe that the "red light wavelengths" have increased or decresed enough to make a difference, but that seems like a reasonable method, considering that even if one galaxy were producing more of these wavelengths at an abnormal rate (and I don't see why it would), there would be many, many other by which we could make our judgement.

You can have both. Check your nation page.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! *eats cookie while trying to think of how it got there*

and take your pick:

www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/external-search/026-5159582-0629244?keyword=universe&mode=blended&tag=pauladriaenss-21&Submit.x=13&Submit.y=11

What lies beyond our universe - nobody can ever know.

Doesn't the very definition of "universe" make this a nonesense question? Now I may be mistaken, but as I understand it existance is only possible within the universe, as is space and time, and the laws of nature. There is nothing outside the universe because by definition the universe is everything.

Sort of how there is no "before" the big bang, as there was no universe and hence no time before the big bang, in fact no existance either.

Of course, if there are multiple universes than nothing I have said is necessarily true. ;)

Try asking this question: did space exist before the Big Bang? How did the singularity expand if there was no space in which it could exist? Also, if the universe is finite, then why is it expanding? If there was a finite amount of space at the time of the Big Bang, then will the matter and energy in the universe hit some invisible wall that marks "the end of space"?
Before the big bang does not make sense. There might have been space, there might have been something else, time might have started at big bang so that there is no before. The current physical theories break down at big bang.

As for how the universe expands, all distances become greater despite there being no outer boundary expanding. Try painting dots on a balloon and inflate it. The dots will expand just like the galaxies in the universe do.

How can it not make sense? If there was space before the Big Bang, that space was probably infinite. If it was infinite, then there was an infinite place in which the universe could expand. If time and space came into being with the Big Bang, then time and space are both continually expanding along with the universe, like a carpet that's rolled out onto the floor. That doesn't really make sense. So space existing before the Big Bang is a crucial concept.

I heard somewhere that there are a bunch of universes, and we only live in one.

How can it not make sense? If there was space before the Big Bang, that space was probably infinite. If it was infinite, then there was an infinite place in which the universe could expand. If time and space came into being with the Big Bang, then time and space are both continually expanding along with the universe, like a carpet that's rolled out onto the floor. That doesn't really make sense. So space existing before the Big Bang is a crucial concept.
You have to think of it this way: before the big bang, there was nothing. At least nothing that can be understood by physics. If nothing exists and if there is nothing with which to measure this nothingness, no time, or spatial awareness, no objects by which to at least attempt to measure something.

Therefore, it follows, nothing existed, there was nothing!

Can you measure time before your own birth and gradual awareness? While you may now know things existed in others' experience, in your own (non experience)there was nothing.

You have to think of it this way: before the big bang, there was nothing. At least nothing that can be understood by physics. If nothing exists and if there is nothing with which to measure this nothingness, no time, or spatial awareness, no objects by which to at least attempt to measure something.

Therefore, it follows, nothing existed, there was nothing!

Can you measure time before your own birth and gradual awareness? While you may now know things existed in others' experience, in your own (non experience)there was nothing.

I don't get it...

I don't get it...
Science has no way to measure anything pre-Big Bang. The theory is that we do not live in the universe but the multiverse. All possible combinations of physics and scientific principles exist somewhere. We just happen to exist in a universe that is (one of) the best suited for the development of physics and biological development that has reulted in us.

You have to think of it this way: before the big bang, there was nothing. At least nothing that can be understood by physics. If nothing exists and if there is nothing with which to measure this nothingness, no time, or spatial awareness, no objects by which to at least attempt to measure something.

Therefore, it follows, nothing existed, there was nothing!

Can you measure time before your own birth and gradual awareness? While you may now know things existed in others' experience, in your own (non experience)there was nothing.

While your logic makes sense, it takes into account the basic assumption that there was absolute nothingness (including spatial awareness) before the Big Bang, which I don't see as realistic. Basically what you're implying is that the universe (assuming it expands) is constantly expanding the borders of time/space, which makes no sense whatsoever.

It's like saying that the universe is a bubble of space in an infinite sea of nothingness and that this bubble, as it expands, somehow creates more space and time within its borders. How can this be? It doesn't make sense unless there is space and time outisde this "bubble" which it can expand into. In other words, what you would call the sea of nothingness is actually part of this universe because it is under the influence of time and space. Otherwise, the universe could not expand.

I think current science believes that the concepts of space and time did not exist before the universe and cannot exist outside. Therefore, ideas like "before" or "outside" the universe don't make sense, existance simply does not occur there.

It is not infinite.

Quite, since red shift confirms the veracity of the theory implying that the universe is expanding, wnd if it can expand, it is not infinite.

It's like saying that the universe is a bubble of space in an infinite sea of nothingness and that this bubble, as it expands, somehow creates more space and time within its borders.
Why couldn't this be exactly correct? To me this seems the only possible answer, as, since the universe is everything, outside the universe is nothing.

It doesn't make sense unless there is space and time outisde this "bubble" which it can expand into.
If there was time and space outside the "bubble" wouldn't we just say that the universe still existed at this point? More to the point, how can you say there is a "bubble" if time and space exists outside it?

I think current science believes that the concepts of space and time did not exist before the universe and cannot exist outside. Therefore, ideas like "before" or "outside" the universe don't make sense, existance simply does not occur there.

Yes, but that doesn't really justify the concept if it's irrational. Take, for example, the existence of time and space within this "universe bubble": if there is nothing outisde of this finite universe that has been described, then as the universe bubble expands, it must take into its boundaries more space than it had before, correct?

If this is accurate, then it would be impossible for the universe bubble to expand (i.e., give itself more space) if there is no space outside of it. Since we see that the universe expands, we see that there is space outside of the perceived bubble. How did it get there? It was likely there before the Big Bang.

Space is finite but you cant reach its end as it has the unusual quality of bending.

Yes, but that doesn't really justify the concept if it's irrational. Take, for example, the existence of time and space within this "universe bubble": if there is nothing outisde of this finite universe that has been described, then as the universe bubble expands, it must take into its boundaries more space than it had before, correct?



I think none of this is true if we assume conservation of mass/energy. The universe merely stretches, it doesn't "gain" anything from the nothingness outside, as that is all there is outside. Nothingness.

Everything that exists, has existed, or ever will exist has done so in one universe -- this one. Absolute nothingness (empty space) exists within the confines of this one universe. "Uni" means everything, even empty space. So all empty space is a part of the universe. If there is any part of the universe in which the laws of physics as we know them do not apply, it would be a different dimension, but it is a different dimension of the same universe.

For a start science has no answer or proof to whether the universe is infinite or not only theories as the question is pretty impossible to answer by experiment.
The most popular theory in the scientific world is:
To us (three dimensional beings) the universe appears to be infinite as our universe is actually four demensional. So if you point in a direction and walk for ever you will eventually end up where you started. This is because you cannot escape the "bubble" of three dimensions.
Take for example someone living in a two dimensional world. Their universe is on the surface of a three dimensional sphere. To them the surface appears to be infinite but to a three dimensional being obsevering from its three dimensional universe it can see the sphere is finite.
So theres a breif explanationof what a lot of people belive to be true.

I think none of this is true if we assume conservation of mass/energy. The universe merely stretches, it doesn't "gain" anything from the nothingness outside, as that is all there is outside. Nothingness.

If what I said in my last post about dimensionalities is true, then one dimension can expand/infringe on another, according to your understanding? And I don't believe that the conservation of mass and time can be understood as going on ad infinitum, unless I'm mistaken.

I'm sorry, by nothingness I did not only mean empty space. I meant lack of space and time and the laws of physics. The lack of everything, the lack of existance.

Yes, but that doesn't really justify the concept if it's irrational. Take, for example, the existence of time and space within this "universe bubble": if there is nothing outisde of this finite universe that has been described, then as the universe bubble expands, it must take into its boundaries more space than it had before, correct?

If this is accurate, then it would be impossible for the universe bubble to expand (i.e., give itself more space) if there is no space outside of it. Since we see that the universe expands, we see that there is space outside of the perceived bubble. How did it get there? It was likely there before the Big Bang.

Not in the slightest, expansion merely decreases the density of matter and energy in the universe, and since "nothingness" is, indeed nothing, it simply exists, it cannot be created, therefore expansion is both viable and probable, I yet again refer to red shift.

To us (three dimensional beings) the universe appears to be infinite as our universe is actually four demensional. So if you point in a direction and walk for ever you will eventually end up where you started. This is because you cannot escape the "bubble" of three dimensions.

Yes, but I meant objective dimensions.

If what I said in my last post about dimensionalities is true, then one dimension can expand/infringe on another, according to your understanding? And I don't believe that the conservation of mass and time can be understood as going on ad infinitum, unless I'm mistaken.

I admit I know practically nothing in this field, but I was never aware that it was possible for a dimension to infringe on another, in fact isn't this what defines dimensions?

Anyway, I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to me that space and time can exist outside of the universe, because surely these would also be part of the universe in that case.

Well, that's what I mean; there's an effect. If expansion decreases the density of matter, then the expansion cannot be infinite as matter would eventually cease to exist (i.e., it would become energy).

Anyway, I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to me that space and time can exist outside of the universe, because surely these would also be part of the universe in that case.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

And I don't believe that the conservation of mass and time can be understood as going on ad infinitum, unless I'm mistaken.

I've never heared of any theory that would contend otherwise, save of course for the peculiar world of quantum physics, but the universe has not been on a quantum scale for a long time, not since before a fraction of a second after the big bang.

Well, that's what I mean; there's an effect. If expansion decreases the density of matter, then the expansion cannot be infinite as matter would eventually cease to exist (i.e., it would become energy).

Isn't one possible theory something exactly like this, that expansion will continue until the very subatomic particles of atoms themselves are ripped apart and then even their quarks as well (forgive me but I'm not well versed on the lower than sub-atomic level)? Assuming an infinite expansion model.

Isn't one possible theory something like this, that expansion will continue until the very subatomic particles of atoms themselves are ripped apart and then even their quarks as well? Assuming an infinite expansion model.

That's actually concerning, my god people will be fat in 1000000000 years time :p

Well their mass shouldn't be any different, only their volume. ;)

Well their mass shouldn't be any different, only their volume. ;)

amounts to the same point really, or rather, the same bulbous mess

I guess I better start getting into shape then. That's just what I need to worry about, not only do you need to watch calories but consider the expansion of the universe as well.

I guess I better start getting into shape then. That's just what I need to worry about, not only do you need to watch calories but consider the expansion of the universe as well.

God I'm marketing that as a diet program...

~...Afterwards the man tries to convince Mrs. Brown to donate her liver.

Actually, the song is his closing argument in successfully convincing her.

She responds to the song with "Makes you feel sort of insignificant, doesn't it?"

He: "Yeah. So, can we have your liver then?"

She: "Ah, all right. You talked me into it."

I think Douglas Adams said it best:

"Space is big - really big - you just won't believe how vastly, hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. You may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space."

I believe the universe is infinite. There is no "outside" or "inside" of an infinite universe.

There are too many variables and undefined element to this aurgument. More than likely we will never know.

Why?

Because nothing that is known to have a starting point in time can be infinite.

We know it has to be more than 30,000,000,000 light years across because otherwise Earth would have to be at the centre of the universe - something which is almost impossible to believe.

However, exactly how much larger than that it is forms the subject of great debate in the cosmology field. The best theory predicts the whole universe to be about 78 billion light years (7.8 × 10^10 light years) across.

Isn't one possible theory something exactly like this, that expansion will continue until the very subatomic particles of atoms themselves are ripped apart and then even their quarks as well (forgive me but I'm not well versed on the lower than sub-atomic level)? Assuming an infinite expansion model.

It is. All matter evaporated away to energy - all cooled to minute fractions of a degree above absolute zero.

The time past since the Big Bang isn't really an indicator of infinity, only of . . . time past. The space within which exists our three-dimensional perspective is infinite. As I said, even if broken into a thousand dimensions, nothing can exist without the universe. So nothing lies beyond our universe, as "universe" means everything.

Nope. The space within the 4 dimensions of space/time we term the "universe" cannot be infinite because only a finite time has elapsed since the end of the cosmic inflation period. As that period left a universe that was around 300,000 light years across and since then the universe has expanded at a rate that we can calculate (and which has to be less than the speed of light) then there is a finite limit to the size the universe can be. That said, if it is unbounded, there is no edge.

Try asking this question: did space exist before the Big Bang? How did the singularity expand if there was no space in which it could exist? Also, if the universe is finite, then why is it expanding? If there was a finite amount of space at the time of the Big Bang, then will the matter and energy in the universe hit some invisible wall that marks "the end of space"?

The universe has/is/will expand - but it is not expanding into anything.

While your logic makes sense, it takes into account the basic assumption that there was absolute nothingness (including spatial awareness) before the Big Bang, which I don't see as realistic. Basically what you're implying is that the universe (assuming it expands) is constantly expanding the borders of time/space, which makes no sense whatsoever.

Nevertheless, that is exactly what is happening.

It's like saying that the universe is a bubble of space in an infinite sea of nothingness and that this bubble, as it expands, somehow creates more space and time within its borders. How can this be? It doesn't make sense unless there is space and time outisde this "bubble" which it can expand into. In other words, what you would call the sea of nothingness is actually part of this universe because it is under the influence of time and space. Otherwise, the universe could not expand.

No, all that "was/is/will be" is contained within the universe.

I forget. Is their enough energy for the universe to collapse back in on itself or not?

Yes, but that doesn't really justify the concept if it's irrational. Take, for example, the existence of time and space within this "universe bubble": if there is nothing outisde of this finite universe that has been described, then as the universe bubble expands, it must take into its boundaries more space than it had before, correct?

No, it takes in nothing, the very fabric of spce is expanding.

[quote]If this is accurate, then it would be impossible for the universe bubble to expand (i.e., give itself more space) if there is no space outside of it. Since we see that the universe expands, we see that there is space outside of the perceived bubble. How did it get there? It was likely there before the Big Bang.

Hard though it is to follow, there is no space outside our universe.

Well, that's what I mean; there's an effect. If expansion decreases the density of matter, then the expansion cannot be infinite as matter would eventually cease to exist (i.e., it would become energy).

The space within matter is not expanding, just the space within which matter exists.

That said, yes, if the universe keeps expanding eventualy all matter will evaporate away to enegy. I think the figure is at least 10^34 years.

I forget. Is their enough energy for the universe to collapse back in on itself or not?

Not by the look of it.

Sort of how there is no "before" the big bang, as there was no universe and hence no time before the big bang, in fact no existance either.

*Trying to comprehend what "nothing" is*

Hmm.... I think it must be.... Hmm... AARG!!!

*Brains splatter all over the place*

Isn't one possible theory something exactly like this, that expansion will continue until the very subatomic particles of atoms themselves are ripped apart and then even their quarks as well (forgive me but I'm not well versed on the lower than sub-atomic level)? Assuming an infinite expansion model.

Expansion of space does NOT cause individual objects to become less dense. Consider the chemical attraction between atoms in your body, and the gravitational attraction between the Earth and the Sun, and the attraction between stars in the galaxy. These attractions FAR overpower the expansion of space. These objects will not be ripped apart. Once you get to the scale of multiple galaxies, expansion of space starts to become a factor, but not before.

Consider the traditional example of an expanding balloon. The balloon is expanding, but say there are little magnetic balls on the surface that attract each other. These balls will stick together, even the the expasion of the balloon is trying to push them apart. The attraction between the two balls overpowers the expansion.

The part of the universe we can observe, according to most recent theories, is finite, so even if it is infinite, we may never notice.

Anyway, what would you consider an "infinite universe"? One with infinite empty space all around a finite number of galaxies? One with infinite (countable? more?) galaxies (stars, bodies)?

The Universe is infinite...

=> There are an infinite number of planets

Since not all planets are inhabited => There are only a finite number of inhabited planets.

Since any finite number divided by an infinite number is effectively 0

=> The entire intelligent population of the universe is 0

=> No one actually exists, and we are all a figment of each others non-existant imagination.

The way I think of it, there is an infinte amount of space. You can go forever in any direction. However, there is a finite amount of matter in that space, and eventually if you keep going "out", there will be nothing more in front of you, just empty vacuum forever.

The way I think of it, there is an infinte amount of space. You can go forever in any direction. However, there is a finite amount of matter in that space, and eventually if you keep going "out", there will be nothing more in front of you, just empty vacuum forever.

Nope. Either you end up back where you start or (unlikely) you come to a barrier. There is no way you can go on into something that does not exist.

I'll read a Brief History of Time and get back to you.

The Universe is infinite...

=> There are an infinite number of planets

Since not all planets are inhabited => There are only a finite number of inhabited planets.



This is illogical. It is dosen't matter if not all of the planets are inhabited, the number of inhabited planets, given that the number of planets is infinite (and I don't think it is, but let's just imagine for a moment) would still be infinite.

Say that every trilionth planet is inhabited. An infinite amount of planets divided by a trillion means there will be an infinite amount of inhabited planets.

But of course, most think there are not an infinite amount of planets, therefore there are only a finite amount of inhabited worlds (at least one, I would say).

And if its not then what will be beyon the universe? :confused:

When I think of the universe I think of a sphere containing the galaxies inside... But I know nothing of astro-physics so that's why I'm askin.
The universe is infinate, but bounded by the curvature of four-dimensional space due to the gravitational effect of the matter in the universe. :D

It is. All matter evaporated away to energy - all cooled to minute fractions of a degree above absolute zero.

This is really entropy, isn't it? Although I assume it would take an infinite amount of time for it to actually reach O K.

The universe is infinate, but bounded by the curvature of four-dimensional space due to the gravitational effect of the matter in the universe. :D

Strange. I've heard of finite and unbounded but never infinite and bounded. I imagine it's the former.

I think the OP inadvertently got it right. The universe is indefinite because we don't really know. When we peer across the vast gulf of space to the furthes points we can see...we're actually looking several billion years into the past. So we have no idea what the current universe is like.

Plus, the universe is expanding. If it were already infinite, that would be impossible. Also, a universe with infinite mass would collapse in on itself instead of expanding (unless dark energy intervened.)

As it is, even the smartes of the smart cannot conceive the entirety of the universe.

Indefinite.

There have been lots of nonsense posts about this and I'd like to point your views towards three concepts that dispute whether its infinite (and indefinite).

Theory of Relativity

Quantum Mechanics

String Theory

Please understand these ideas before posting garbage and nonsense. They will also help define arguments about what follows.

Space is defined as an infinite realm that exists. There is so much of it that inspite of there being so much, it just goes on and on forever. It's like trying to definite a Cartesian Plane (standard x,y coordinate plain) or the set of real numbers. We know it exists but it goes on forever to infinity (and negative infinity from any given point within).

The universe can be defined in multiple ways, but the most common perception is that it goes as far as the stuff within it goes. If something goes beyond the realm of the universe, all it does is expand the realm. For those thinking about black holes right now, think of a black hole as a hole in a sheet of graph paper with a crinkle around it. Some coordinates will occupy the same point, but if its uncrinkled, the amount of space can be figured to be the same as though it was never crinkled to start with. [Quantum Mechanics]

But, it can also be thought that the universe is forever the same amount of space and that it is our perceptions of its realm are forever changing. It can be thought that the big bang was really just the universe perceived in a different amount of space and that our PERCEPTION is always changing with the progression of time. This considers that the universe never actually changes and that causality is just a "figament of your imagination" as Jiminy Cricket said to Pinocchio. The problem with this is the concept of free will (which is being proven but not entirely done so and probably can't since it's partially circumstantial) because the "Big Bang" is thought to have arriven from a W particle colliding with a Z particle while gravity couldn't have taken effect since the particles had no mass (some WILL caused them to collide AKA "God"). [Theory of Relativity - "God does not play dice with the universe." - Einstein]

String Theory is a combo, but the primary reason it is is because of how an infintely stretched out black hole is supposed to provide some sort of time portal when you send something around it many times the speed of light. It's very very complicated, and how it's treated reveals how scientists don't like to compromise any more than ordinary people.

I love hard work, due diligence, and absolute suspicion. It makes sure the job gets done right and in a quality matter; after all, we have how many millions of years before the suns blows up to get it done right. We may as well make sure we don't go into overdrive and grow so fast that we go crazy and self-destruct on our miracle of a planet we call Earth. :-)

Anyway, now you see how it works. It's not figured out yet and probably won't be since it's another one of those questions that lead to the answer of the meaning of life and the supreme force of the universe that coinsides with GUT and TOE - Grand Unified Theory; Theory of Everything.

Personally, I perfer like to wonder what it would be like if my mind could grasp the infinite size of the universe by being perfect and stretching so a perfect infinitessimal film covered it. But we aren't perfect and will never get it.

This is just our best guess: The univese is finite but unbounded, the best example of I have hear is: Picture a baloon being blown up. Two dimentionally it is finite but unbounded. (there are no ends, not counting the little air port) Our best guess is the Univese is probably like this except taken up a dimention, 3-D bent in a 4th instead of 2 -D bent in a 3rd. Picturing that baloon again, if you draw two dots on it and blow it up, they will move farther and farther apart even though they are in the same position on the baloon.

Of course this begs the question, what is outside the Univese. And the anser to that is... we have no idea. :confused:

This is really entropy, isn't it? Although I assume it would take an infinite amount of time for it to actually reach O K.

Maybe not quite infinite, but certainly a VERY long time.

Strange. I've heard of finite and unbounded but never infinite and bounded. I imagine it's the former.
Oops! You are correct. I got the terms mixed up. Sorry! M-theory, however, postulates that ours is only one of a virtually infinite number of other universes.

There have been lots of nonsense posts about this and I'd like to point your views towards three concepts that dispute whether its infinite (and indefinite).

Theory of Relativity

Quantum Mechanics

String Theory

Please understand these ideas before posting garbage and nonsense. They will also help define arguments about what follows.

Space is defined as an infinite realm that exists. There is so much of it that inspite of there being so much, it just goes on and on forever. It's like trying to definite a Cartesian Plane (standard x,y coordinate plain) or the set of real numbers. We know it exists but it goes on forever to infinity (and negative infinity from any given point within).

Wrong. Nothing that has a known starting point in time can have expanded to be infinite.

The universe can be defined in multiple ways, but the most common perception is that it goes as far as the stuff within it goes. If something goes beyond the realm of the universe, all it does is expand the realm. For those thinking about black holes right now, think of a black hole as a hole in a sheet of graph paper with a crinkle around it. Some coordinates will occupy the same point, but if its uncrinkled, the amount of space can be figured to be the same as though it was never crinkled to start with. [Quantum Mechanics]

But, it can also be thought that the universe is forever the same amount of space and that it is our perceptions of its realm are forever changing. It can be thought that the big bang was really just the universe perceived in a different amount of space and that our PERCEPTION is always changing with the progression of time. This considers that the universe never actually changes and that causality is just a "figament of your imagination" as Jiminy Cricket said to Pinocchio. The problem with this is the concept of free will (which is being proven but not entirely done so and probably can't since it's partially circumstantial) because the "Big Bang" is thought to have arriven from a W particle colliding with a Z particle while gravity couldn't have taken effect since the particles had no mass (some WILL caused them to collide AKA "God"). [Theory of Relativity - "God does not play dice with the universe." - Einstein]

God doesn't do anything - he doesn't exist.

String Theory is a combo, but the primary reason it is is because of how an infintely stretched out black hole is supposed to provide some sort of time portal when you send something around it many times the speed of light. It's very very complicated, and how it's treated reveals how scientists don't like to compromise any more than ordinary people.

It is fast becoming clear you don't know what you are talking about.

I love hard work, due diligence, and absolute suspicion. It makes sure the job gets done right and in a quality matter; after all, we have how many millions of years before the suns blows up to get it done right. We may as well make sure we don't go into overdrive and grow so fast that we go crazy and self-destruct on our miracle of a planet we call Earth. :-)

Anyway, now you see how it works. It's not figured out yet and probably won't be since it's another one of those questions that lead to the answer of the meaning of life and the supreme force of the universe that coinsides with GUT and TOE - Grand Unified Theory; Theory of Everything.

Personally, I perfer like to wonder what it would be like if my mind could grasp the infinite size of the universe by being perfect and stretching so a perfect infinitessimal film covered it. But we aren't perfect and will never get it.

Clearly you never will.

This is illogical. It is dosen't matter if not all of the planets are inhabited, the number of inhabited planets, given that the number of planets is infinite (and I don't think it is, but let's just imagine for a moment) would still be infinite.

Say that every trilionth planet is inhabited. An infinite amount of planets divided by a trillion means there will be an infinite amount of inhabited planets.

But of course, most think there are not an infinite amount of planets, therefore there are only a finite amount of inhabited worlds (at least one, I would say).

You loose 42 points.... For not being familiar with Adams...

the problem with asking this sort of question is the fact that we simply can't know. IF the universe is constantly expanding, say at the speed of light (I don't know what they say it expands at), and you can't go faster then the speed of light, then you can never reach the end unless it comes back on you. If the universe ends, then perhaps there is another universe nearby, much like our galaxies (though the term universe is contrary to that, it's a word.) And then that space is in a larger one, which is in a larger one, which is in a larger one, perhaps until it loops back and is in fact the space between the nucleus and the electrons in an atom (or particles of air since the atomic structure isn't actually known just surmised) So ponder it, but nobody can for sure tell you the truth, simply because we don't have any way to know.

one thing I've always wondered is how can we tell its expanding (and don't say because things are moving away....)

all we have to go on is red shift in galexys

maybe they are just producing more red light wavelengths.

any physisists care to explain this (i'm a Geneticist and biochemist)
Well, I'm not an astrophysicist, but...

The redshift we measure from remote, receeding objects is more than just 'redder light'. The atmospheres of stars contain hydrogen, helium, and various other elements, all of which tend to absorb certain wavelengths of light that are emitted by the star itself. When we take that starlight and split it into a spectrum, these 'absorption bands' show up as dark gaps in the spectra... certain frequencies of light are 'missing'. Each element has a characteristic set of these absorption bands, which allows us to identify them.

When an object is redshifted, ie. moving rapidly away from us, these absorption bands are also shifted towards the red end of the spectrum. This implies that the object is receeding from us, because if the light from the star itself was simply getting 'redder', the absorption bands of the various elements wouldn't shift their position at all.

Strange. I've heard of finite and unbounded but never infinite and bounded. I imagine it's the former.
Universe is for all practical concerns infinite even if it has a 'border'.

The border is receding from us at the speed of light in every direction.

Universe is for all practical concerns infinite even if it has a 'border'.

The border is receding from us at the speed of light in every direction.

While the universe is not infinite, I agree that for practical purposes it might just as well be.

Well, I'm not an astrophysicist, but...

The redshift we measure from remote, receeding objects is more than just 'redder light'. The atmospheres of stars contain hydrogen, helium, and various other elements, all of which tend to absorb certain wavelengths of light that are emitted by the star itself. When we take that starlight and split it into a spectrum, these 'absorption bands' show up as dark gaps in the spectra... certain frequencies of light are 'missing'. Each element has a characteristic set of these absorption bands, which allows us to identify them.

When an object is redshifted, ie. moving rapidly away from us, these absorption bands are also shifted towards the red end of the spectrum. This implies that the object is receeding from us, because if the light from the star itself was simply getting 'redder', the absorption bands of the various elements wouldn't shift their position at all.

Very good post - you explained red-shift very well :)

There have been lots of nonsense posts about this and I'd like to point your views towards three concepts that dispute whether its infinite (and indefinite).
Theory of Relativity

Quantum Mechanics

String Theory

Please understand these ideas before posting garbage and nonsense.
Yes, okay. We'll all sign up for a course in Quantum Mechanics before we allow ourselves to post opinions in an online discussion forum.