NationStates Jolt Archive

Waah! Innocents are being shot down! Waah! People are dying.

People don't realize the positive things that war can bring. Without war, oppression would run rampant, as what can an oppressed people do but war? Without war, stagnant and weak nations would remain in power, the corruption eating them away. War keeps nations on their toes. It promotes technology.

People who dislike it only think of the current affects, the suffering and such, they don't think of the bigger picture. It's the lot of humans to suffer anyways, war gives us a chance to improve our conditions, to level out the playing field so the people have a chance. A greedy, weak, and ineffective nation can be wiped out in a second in a war. It's because of war the government needs the people on it's side.

So I say fight on humanity!

Only you could come up with something this sick and twisted.

Ah, I always enjoy the ranting of NS’s resident fascist and the angered replies of those that take him way too seriously.

Ah, I always enjoy the ranting of NS’s resident fascist and the angered replies of those that take him way to seriously.
Angry? I'm not angry.

I'm really starting to dislike you.

Angry? I'm not angry.
I wasn’t referring to you. I started typing my reply before yours was up.

Actually, I agree with him, people do whine too much about war

"The tragedy is that men have been taught that war is an abnormal condition. In the past they would have stayed home. War and life are the same thing."

- Dutertre, Antoine de Saint-Exupery's navigator, Flight to Arras.

A rather less jingoistic way of looking at things.

You assume that all wars have the purpose of defeating tiranny. That simply is not true.

Although his phrasing and intentions are somewhat...inflammatory, he makes a valid point. War has been a force for social, economic, and technological change. Millions have been freed from slavery through war, corrupt nations have been overthrown, and many revolutionary social ideas have been spread by conquest. Even though many died as a result of it, war has done some good for mankind.

Of course, the way Serapindal has phrased it makes it sound like an excuse to go on a nationalistic conquering spree, it is true that war remains an essential driving force of human innovation.

snip

well said....i kind of agree with some of what you had to say

War is terrible. It brings pain, death and dispair to all who are involved.

However, it is very nessisary to the survial of any nation. Peace at all cost means that there is nothing that you value enough to fight for.

War is terrible. It brings pain, death and dispair to all who are involved.
Oh, not to all involved.
http://teacher.scholastic.com/scholasticnews/indepth/election_countdown/candidates/images/bush.jpg

Oh, not to all involved.
http://teacher.scholastic.com/scholasticnews/indepth/election_countdown/candidates/images/bush.jpg

Or them:
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=HAL&t=5y&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=

Take a look at the chart from mid 2002 to today: It goes from $9 to $62, or up 689% since the start of the Iraq war.

That's a really ugly tie.

Or them:
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=HAL&t=5y&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=

Take a look at the chart from mid 2002 to today: It goes from $9 to $62, or up 689% since the start of the Iraq war.
When there is a demand for your product or service, and you have the supply to meet that demand, profits are bound to increase.

War (in general) is a neccisary evil.
A bad peace is worse than war. - Some famous dead Greek guy whose name I can't rember.

Or them:
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=HAL&t=5y&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=

Take a look at the chart from mid 2002 to today: It goes from $9 to $62, or up 689% since the start of the Iraq war.

:eek:

Wow, I didn't realize their stock went up so much.

Time to Invest! :D

:eek:

Wow, I didn't realize their stock went up so much.

Time to Invest! :D
The time to invest would have been right before the war. If only… if only…

The time to invest would have been right before the war. If only… if only…
Still time to buy before Iran '07. :D

When there is a demand for your product or service, and you have the supply to meet that demand, profits are bound to increase.

Halliburton stock was bailed out by the government contracts for Iraq; of course, every Administration rewards companies close to its members, so it's not particuluarly odd (think Bill Clinton and Global Crossing or Enron).

Waah! Innocents are being shot down! Waah! People are dying.

People don't realize the positive things that war can bring. Without war, oppression would run rampant, as what can an oppressed people do but war? Without war, stagnant and weak nations would remain in power, the corruption eating them away. War keeps nations on their toes. It promotes technology.

I agree that wars can have some positive effects, but telling grieving people to stop crying over the bodies of the dead is a bit much. Have you ever lost any relatives in a war?

Waah! Innocents are being shot down! Waah! People are dying.

People don't realize the positive things that war can bring. Without war, oppression would run rampant, as what can an oppressed people do but war? Without war, stagnant and weak nations would remain in power, the corruption eating them away. War keeps nations on their toes. It promotes technology.

People who dislike it only think of the current affects, the suffering and such, they don't think of the bigger picture. It's the lot of humans to suffer anyways, war gives us a chance to improve our conditions, to level out the playing field so the people have a chance. A greedy, weak, and ineffective nation can be wiped out in a second in a war. It's because of war the government needs the people on it's side.

So I say fight on humanity!

I agree that sometimes war is necessary. I think it was a good thing the US got into WWII and helped the Alies stop the Axis. Though when it's necessary to engage in war shouldn't we still be concerned about innocents? Shouldn't we try to minimize the suffering while doing what needs to be done?

Oh and if I had to sacrifice current technology for the end to human suffering I would gladly live like the Amish. The civilian technologies that result from war research aren't worth it.

I was wondering what your background is. Why do you have such a pro-military stance. Do you plan on joining the military?

Its strange but those who always profess the the need for war never seem to be the ones who see themselves as victims of it. Never put foward there own family to be murdered or volunteer to fight themselves. War isn't about the latest video game or thriller novel, not about glory, conquest and freedom its about death, rape, disability, fear, hatred and horror. Those who profess love of war never see it up close, never see the old men and women killed by bombs, or see grown men weep at the sight of butchered children, or see the young boys turned into monsters by there governments. It should be a last resort. And hopfully like the other earlier barbarisms of humanity such as human sacrifice wither away.

Mostly, in America, we have a whole huge shitload of people who have never so much as smelled war, unless you count the week-old pizza sitting on their desk next to the CD of Battlefield 1942.

And really, of all the things to cry about, you're complaining that people are choosing WAR? War is HELL you know, guess who said that? Answer: not a testy kid who's never been in or near a war.

Actually, some people complain (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=448843) and cry (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=443033) otherwise stroke their ego (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=448712) a bit too much on this forum. Not that I'm pointing any fingers or anything.

War is hell. Those who have never been in battle, will never understand it. What is even worse than those who are ready to fight for any reason are those that attack soldiers when they come home from fighting to defend something that they believe in.

Waah! Innocents are being shot down! Waah! People are dying.

People don't realize the positive things that war can bring. Without war, oppression would run rampant, as what can an oppressed people do but war? Without war, stagnant and weak nations would remain in power, the corruption eating them away.

I guess someone hasn't ever heard of Paulo Freire.

I'm not that great with sarcasm, this is a joke thread, right?

Oh, I just had to ask this:

Why do people whine about those whining about war?

War has positive effects-
Limits population, so we don't starve ourselves to death
Improves technology
Increases competition
Good for some Economies
Unites peoples/nations
Preserve some things: Religions, Customs, Beliefs

Negative effects:
Death
Destruction

War has positive effects-
Limits population, so we don't starve ourselves to death
Improves technology
Increases competition
Good for some Economies
Unites peoples/nations
Preserve some things: Religions, Customs, Beliefs

Negative effects:
Death
Destruction

This is laughable.

1. Most modern famines (Somalia, Ethopia, Darfur) have been caused by warfare leading to a food shortage (Burning crops etc)

2. Military industrial complexes have become the main source of technology todya only because that is where the vast majority of money and talent go. A war will generally lead to a lowering of civilian standard of living.

3. I don't know why increasing competition is a good thing?!?

4. War makes rich people richer (Heads of arms manufacturersetc) Gives lots of people jobs (Army, governmnet contracts) BUT ultimately will mean a reduction in the funds avalible in a country for schools, hospitals, will kill the most productive element of the population (Young Men), and lead to the destruction of infrastructure (Just look at Iraq, Vietnam, the Balkans)

5. Unites people by force, thats imperialism, it will lead to many deaths. Look at the Serbs in the Balkans who used this reason for ethnic cleansing or the Germans who used it for the Holocaust.

6. Yes it can preserve beliefs generally at the expense of others.

Waah! Innocents are being shot down! Waah! People are dying.

People don't realize the positive things that war can bring. Without war, oppression would run rampant, as what can an oppressed people do but war? Without war, stagnant and weak nations would remain in power, the corruption eating them away. War keeps nations on their toes. It promotes technology.

People who dislike it only think of the current affects, the suffering and such, they don't think of the bigger picture. It's the lot of humans to suffer anyways, war gives us a chance to improve our conditions, to level out the playing field so the people have a chance. A greedy, weak, and ineffective nation can be wiped out in a second in a war. It's because of war the government needs the people on it's side.

this is somewhat true in todays world, in the past, and i mean long long past, i dont think anyone living today will remember this, they used to have parades before going off to war, and then during, and even coming home from a victory. it was glorious to be a soldier. but at the same time that was when war was composed up of a couple of battles, and the soldiers stood in formation and fought that way.

the way of fighting the wars and the feelings about war have changed alot recently

Waah! Innocents are being shot down! Waah! People are dying.

People don't realize the positive things that war can bring. Without war, oppression would run rampant, as what can an oppressed people do but war? Without war, stagnant and weak nations would remain in power, the corruption eating them away. War keeps nations on their toes. It promotes technology.

People who dislike it only think of the current affects, the suffering and such, they don't think of the bigger picture. It's the lot of humans to suffer anyways, war gives us a chance to improve our conditions, to level out the playing field so the people have a chance. A greedy, weak, and ineffective nation can be wiped out in a second in a war. It's because of war the government needs the people on it's side.

So I say fight on humanity!

I agree. This is all the more reason war should not be entered into lightly. Most wars these days, for instance, make little sense. My personal favorite is the civil war in Uganda, led by a man claiming to be Jesus Christ.

The original poster lists all these positive effects of war without showing the negative effects as well in an attempt to paint a rose colored picture of it. There is only one thing I I say when the issue of war being good or bad comes up. War brings change.

War has positive effects-
Limits population, so we don't starve ourselves to death


Not really. Ever hear of the Baby Boom? Veterans just wait til after the fighting stops, then raise a bunch of kids to make up for not having had the opportunity before.

And the dead, even in huge major wars (including genocide) never outnumber those born. To say nothing of minor wars like everything since WWII.

War is not a good means of population control. Even if it succeeded at controlling population.

War (in general) is a neccisary evil.
A bad peace is worse than war. - Some famous dead Greek guy whose name I can't rember.

Are you thinking of.. "It is better to have a war for justice than peace in injustice"?

And a quote which pertains to this thread:
"Make wars unprofitable and you make them impossible."

I have a few pages full of quotes about war and peace. I like to show them off.

Halliburton stock was bailed out by the government contracts for Iraq; of course, every Administration rewards companies close to its members, so it's not particuluarly odd (think Bill Clinton and Global Crossing or Enron).

They didn't just get bailed out.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/file_on_4/4216853.stm

How much of that money do you think ended up unaccounted in Haliburton coffers or their subsidiaries?

Paul Bremer's excuse? It's war. You can't have accounting standards to war. Translated: I'm at war. Give me a blank cheque so I can buy a fleet of limos.

Mostly, it is the way modern warfare is conducted that is the problem. There is no decisive victory. War, at one time used to be effective:

Rwarrior1 has joined the world
Bwarrior1 has joined the world
Rwarrior1 [arrow] deer
Bwarrior1: Hey! th4t wuz my d33r!
Rwarrior1: sif!
Bwarrior1: WAR!!!
Rwarrior1: WAR!!!
Rwarrior1 [arrow] Bwarrior1
Bwarrior2 [arrow] Rwarrior1
...
Rwarrior37 [arrow] Bwoman12
Rwarrior37 [club] Bchild22
Rwarrior38 [axe] Bchief
**Blue Clan has disconnected from the world
Rwarrior37: W00T!
Rwarrior38: W00T!!111
Rchief: *ahh*...peace...


Nowadays, it's more like:

RDiplomat1 has joined the world
BDiplomat1 has joined the world
RDiplomat1: uR GH3Y!
BDiplomat1: STFU!
**RDiplomat1 has left the world
**BDiplomat1 has left the world
...
RPresident: WAR!!!
BPresident: ??
RPresident: WAR!11
BPresident: WTF?
BDiplomat1 has joined the world
BDiplomat1 <whisper> BPresident1
BPresident1: WAR!!!!!!1!!!!!!1111
RAF1 [carpetbomb] BCity1
BCity1 [AA gun] RAF1
RAF1 [carpetbomb] BCity1
**BCity1 has disconnected from world
...
RPresident [nuke] Bcity357
BPresident [nuke] Rcity236
RPresident: FFS! STOP!!!
BPresident: U ST4RT3D IT!!1111
RPresident1: truce k?
BPresident1: k truce
RPresident1 <whisper> RDiplomat1 h3s sti11 gh3y


and the cycle continues. It would have been much easier to skip all the war in the middle and keep negotiating until it worked out. Instead, countries insist on showing how much military might they have until they are in enough pain to give negotiation a chance again.

Negotiation may be what starts war, but it also ends it.

People don't realize the positive things that war can bring.*checks his gas bills

I cry too much, period.

Waah! Innocents are being shot down! Waah! People are dying.

People don't realize the positive things that war can bring. Without war, oppression would run rampant, as what can an oppressed people do but war? Without war, stagnant and weak nations would remain in power, the corruption eating them away. War keeps nations on their toes. It promotes technology.

People who dislike it only think of the current affects, the suffering and such, they don't think of the bigger picture. It's the lot of humans to suffer anyways, war gives us a chance to improve our conditions, to level out the playing field so the people have a chance. A greedy, weak, and ineffective nation can be wiped out in a second in a war. It's because of war the government needs the people on it's side.

So I say fight on humanity!
I agree. Remember WWII (of course you do), the great things it brought was hundreds of people became heroes, the alliance between Japan and USA.
And the Cold War was a good thing too: It destroyed the USSR and the oppression that Soviets inflicted onto other nations.
Come to think of it, many wars have good things that were given after it.

But, war does have some nasty side effects, but I'm on your side Seripinal

Waah! Innocents are being shot down! Waah! People are dying.

People don't realize the positive things that war can bring. Without war, oppression would run rampant, as what can an oppressed people do but war? Without war, stagnant and weak nations would remain in power, the corruption eating them away. War keeps nations on their toes. It promotes technology.

People who dislike it only think of the current affects, the suffering and such, they don't think of the bigger picture. It's the lot of humans to suffer anyways, war gives us a chance to improve our conditions, to level out the playing field so the people have a chance. A greedy, weak, and ineffective nation can be wiped out in a second in a war. It's because of war the government needs the people on it's side.

So I say fight on humanity!
People don't cry enough about war, especially simpletons who argue that it does a greater good. Ask the people who die in them if they agree with the nobler cause--I guarantee you that most think that notion is bullshit.

Or them:
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=HAL&t=5y&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=

Take a look at the chart from mid 2002 to today: It goes from $9 to $62, or up 689% since the start of the Iraq war.
Nice retirement nest egg for Cheney (http://money.cnn.com/2003/09/25/news/companies/cheney/) (433,000 shares). :eek:

Nice retirement nest egg for Cheney (http://money.cnn.com/2003/09/25/news/companies/cheney/) (433,000 shares). :eek:

Damn. MAkes me wish I had invested.

God, I love war profiteering!

I hate war. But i accept the fact that it is human nature and there is no point going around whinning about world peace or any other BS.

Damn. MAkes me wish I had invested.

God, I love war profiteering!
So, you don't mind American troops and innocent Iraqis dying, as long as you can make a profit?

Sad....truly sad. :(

So, you don't mind American troops and innocent Iraqis dying, as long as you can make a profit?

Sad....truly sad. :(

I know I'm a dispicable person, but, in my view, they're going to die anyway. It's fine if I make some money while they're at it.

*runs and hides*

War is a nessecary evil. The fact that it is nessecary does not make it good and the fact that it is evil does not make it bad. The both equal out the other, your own opinion depends on which aspect you are looking at most. I do agree that a disproportnate ammount of attention is sometimes given to the bad, but that is because the bad is the more attention grabbing and dramatic

So I say fight on humanity!I say: Be an innocent in a war or have relatives be the innocents in a war and then we'll talk.

the fact that it is evil does not make it bad. T

Er okay, so what is your definition of "evil" and "bad?"

e·vil Audio pronunciation of "evil" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (vl)
adj. e·vil·er, e·vil·est

1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked:

bad1 Audio pronunciation of "bad" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bd)
adj. worse, (wûrs) worst (wûrst)

1. Not achieving an adequate standard; poor: a bad concert.
2. Evil; sinful.

War is a nessecary evil. The fact that it is nessecary does not make it good and the fact that it is evil does not make it bad. The both equal out the other, your own opinion depends on which aspect you are looking at most. I do agree that a disproportnate ammount of attention is sometimes given to the bad, but that is because the bad is the more attention grabbing and dramaticI think a more appropriate formulation of that would be:
"War can never be good. It can only be necessary."

Er okay, so what is your definition of "evil" and "bad?"

You missed my point. The "evil" part of war being a nessecary evil does not make war completely bad. In the same way the "nessecary" part of it being a nessecary evil does not make war completely good. It is neither completely good or completely bad. Do not take quotes out of context again.

I think a more appropriate formulation of that would be:
"War can never be good. It can only be necessary."
That I would agree with ... hopefully we move beyond it even being necessary

War has positive effects-
Limits population, so we don't starve ourselves to death


Sorry, am I the only one to see this as just a tad ironic?

You missed my point. The "evil" part of war being a nessecary evil does not make war completely bad. In the same way the "nessecary" part of it being a nessecary evil does not make war completely good. It is neither completely good or completely bad. Do not take quotes out of context again.

Oh I got your point. Nice yin-yang balance type worldview there.

But you're saying now war is only 'partly' evil, partly good, and completely necessary. I happen to disagree.

Tell you what, fight in a war first, then go on about how it's a good thing. I think most veterans will tell you it's an ugly, unglamorous and hideous thing that should only EVER be a last resort.

Think about it. The entire concept is so monstorous. Government-sanctioned mass murder, run by people who never fight it.

It would be a mistake to assume that we are at a higher level of civilization
then yesterday, or 200, or 1000 years ago.

There is as much barbarism as ever.

war itself is barbarism,
and to quote plato? only the dead have seen the end of the war.


'great' powers or small, barbarism exists.
it is not always out in the open.

the only thing that has changed is the wording that covers it up.



"Truth, Torture, and the American Way"
Harbury (whose husband was tortured)
takes the reader on a journey as to how we arrived at Abu Ghraib. The book documents our path from Vietnam to Latin America to Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo -- a chilling chronicle that gives the lie to the "few bad apples" assesment. We can only hope that the facts she presents will help bring this nightmare of abuses to an end.
http://www.beacon.org/catalogs/f05/harbury.html

Oh I got your point. Nice yin-yang balance type worldview there.

But you're saying now war is only 'partly' evil, partly good, and completely necessary. I happen to disagree.

We were looking into this today in my seminar. Basicly the world has a limited ammount of resorces, and people have diffrent ideas about what to do with them. Naturally these people will often disagree which can (and often does) lead to war. While I agree War should be avoided it is a viable last resort

*Starts humming Pearl Jam's "Do the Evolution."

Even if a war is neccesary, which I think most posters here will agree some err...recent wars were not, there is no reason to be killing innocent civilians. Sure, it's a war, people die, but the question is how many? 20,000+ civilians dead in less than three years is just unacceptable.

On a side-note, just for fun last week I walked up to three of my republican friends and asked them if they knew how many people had died in Iraq. All gave estimates between 1,200 to 2,000 - startlingly accurate if I had asked them how many U.S. soldiers died in Iraq. However, I asked them how many people had died in Iraq. Evidently they don't count Iraqis as PEOPLE! No wonder we don't seem to care how many we kill.

haha

On a side-note, just for fun last week I walked up to three of my republican friends and asked them if they knew how many people had died in Iraq. All gave estimates between 1,200 to 2,000 - startlingly accurate if I had asked them how many U.S. soldiers died in Iraq. However, I asked them how many people had died in Iraq. Evidently they don't count Iraqis as PEOPLE! No wonder we don't seem to care how many we kill.

For a little scope and contrast... on August 2, 216 BC the invasion army of General Hannibal Barca engaged the Roman army near the town of Cannae in Italy. The total number of casualties totaled about 66,000 (that's sixty-six THOUSAND) dead and about 10,000 Romans captured. Imagine that amount of men dead, butchered, on an open field.

The battle achieved next to nothing. Hannibal couldn’t engage Rome itself and Rome couldn’t muster enough men for round two; a pointless slaughter leading to a stalemate.