NationStates Jolt Archive

Turns out that American war "hero" Pat Tillman was a leftist traitor.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10568.htm

Pat Tillman, Our Hero

By Dave Zirin

10/08/05 "The Nation" -- -- 24 October 2005 Issue --- "I don't believe it," seethed Ann Coulter.

Her contempt was directed at a September 25 San Francisco Chronicle story reporting that former NFL star and Army Ranger war hero Pat Tillman, who was killed in Afghanistan last year, believed the US war on Iraq was "f***ing illegal" and counted Noam Chomsky among his favorite authors. It must have been quite a moment for Coulter, who upon Tillman's death described him in her inimitably creepy fashion as "an American original-virtuous, pure and masculine like only an American male can be." She tried to discredit the story as San Francisco agitprop, but this approach ran into a slight problem: The article's source was Pat Tillman's mother, Mary.

Mary and the Tillman family are relentlessly pushing for answers to the questions surrounding Pat's death in Afghanistan. They want to know why it took the Pentagon five weeks to tell them he died in a tragic case of friendly fire. They want to know why they were unwitting props at Pat's funeral, weeping while lies were told by eulogizing politicians. Mary is now hoping that a new Pentagon inquiry will bring closure. "There have been so many discrepancies so far that it's hard to know what to believe," she said to the Chronicle. "There are too many murky details."

The very private Tillmans have revealed a picture of Pat profoundly at odds with the GI Joe image created by Pentagon spinmeisters and their media stenographers. As the Chronicle put it, family and friends are now unveiling "a side of Pat Tillman not widely known-a fiercely independent thinker who enlisted, fought and died in service to his country yet was critical of President Bush and opposed the war in Iraq, where he served a tour of duty. He was an avid reader whose interests ranged from history books...to works of leftist Noam Chomsky, a favorite author." Tillman had very unembedded feelings about the Iraq War. His close friend Army Spec. Russell Baer remembered, "I can see it like a movie screen. We were outside of [an Iraqi city] watching as bombs were dropping on the town.... We were talking. And Pat said, 'You know, this war is so f***ing illegal.' And we all said, 'Yeah.' That's who he was. He totally was against Bush." With these revelations, Pat Tillman the PR icon joins WMD and Al Qaeda connections on the heap of lies used to sell the Iraq War.

Tillman's transition from one-dimensional caricature to critically thinking human being is a long time coming. The fact is that in death he was far more useful to the armchair warriors than he had ever been in life. When the Pro Bowler joined the Army Rangers, the Pentagon brass needed a loofah to wipe their drool: He was white, handsome and played in the NFL. For a chicken-hawk Administration led by a President who loves the affectations of machismo but runs from protesting military moms, this testosterone cocktail was impossible to resist. The problem was that Tillman wouldn't play their game. To the Pentagon's chagrin, he turned down numerous offers to be its recruitment poster child.

But when Tillman fell in Afghanistan the wheels once again started to turn. Now the narrative was perfect: "War hero and football star dies fighting terror." The Abu Ghraib scandal was about to hit the press, so the President found it especially useful to praise Tillman as "an inspiration on and off the football field, as with all who made the ultimate sacrifice in the war on terror." His funeral was nationally televised. Bush even went back to the bloody well during the presidential campaign, addressing his team's fans on the Arizona Cardinals' stadium Jumbotron.

We now know, of course, that this was all a brutal charade. Such callous manipulation is fueling the Tillman family's anger. As Mary Tillman said this past May, "They could have told us up front that they were suspicious that [his death] was a fratricide, but they didn't. They wanted to use him for their purposes.... They needed something that looked good, and it was appalling that they would use him like that." A growing number of military families, similarly angered, are criticizing the war in Iraq through organizations like Military Families Speak Out.

As for Chomsky, whom Ann Coulter would undoubtedly label "treasonous," Mary Tillman says a private meeting was planned between him and Pat after Pat's return-a meeting that never took place, of course. Chomsky confirms this scenario. This was the real Pat Tillman: someone who, like the majority of this country, was doubting the rationale for war, distrusting his Commander in Chief and looking for answers. The real Pat Tillman, the one with three dimensions, must stick in the throat of the Bush-Coulter gang, a pit in the cherry atop their bloody sundae.

Tillman was slain by friendly fire in Afghanistan on 22 April 2004.

Pretty stupid of him to open his mouth then. If someone in my unit openly showed us that we couldn't trust him in the field and we couldn't prove it a commanding officer, fraticide would be one of the options. Wasn't Tilman a special operator? Not a good place to mouth off.

One problem with the picture. Yes, it was fratricide. But we still have a football player with a promising career volunteering to become a Ranger (an occupation that in wartime invariably leads to combat).

So, explain how someone who thinks Chomsky is the shizzle would become a Ranger in time of war. Eh?

Not saying he's the big hero for doing it - just saying he isn't the Chomsky type for doing what he did.

Pretty stupid of him to open his mouth then. If someone in my unit openly showed us that we couldn't trust him in the field and we couldn't prove it a commanding officer, fraticide would be one of the options. Wasn't Tilman a special operator? Not a good place to mouth off.
And promptly face a court martial and the death penalty.

Pretty stupid of him to open his mouth then. If someone in my unit openly showed us that we couldn't trust him in the field and we couldn't prove it a commanding officer, fraticide would be one of the options. Wasn't Tilman a special operator? Not a good place to mouth off.

...doubting the political reasons for going to war does not amount to treason, does not prove anything about someone's combat effectiveness, and is certainly not a reason to kill someone illegally in the field. Jesus.

Pretty stupid of him to open his mouth then. If someone in my unit openly showed us that we couldn't trust him in the field and we couldn't prove it a commanding officer, fraticide would be one of the options. Wasn't Tilman a special operator? Not a good place to mouth off.

You can't trust someone because they don't believe in the war effort? And thats enough reason to kill them?

And promptly face a court martial and the death penalty.
Maybe in America. The fog of war beats reasonable doubt any day of the week and I don't see anyone getting charged for Tilman's fragging.

Maybe in America. The fog of war beats reasonable doubt any day of the week and I don't see anyone getting charged for Tilman's fragging.
Member of the armed forces?

Though of course we are assuming too much. It could have been that Tilman was mouthing off and a few individuals (not the entire unit, maybe even one person) decided that they should frag him. The government then trys to spin this case of fratricide into some big hero story. Which is my best bet.

I bet he was fragged because he said "something he shouldn't have".

Gotta love military types. That's not to say all of them are bad... But, it still stands: There are a lot of assholes, indeed near-Fascists in the military. Abu Ghraib showed that quite clearly.

Pretty stupid of him to open his mouth then. If someone in my unit openly showed us that we couldn't trust him in the field and we couldn't prove it a commanding officer, fraticide would be one of the options. Wasn't Tilman a special operator? Not a good place to mouth off.

You fail to take into account that they already knew each other, were living together, and had been through life threatening situations together (one of those things that has a tendency to bond people). They wouldve been friends by then. Saying such a thing to a friend is perfectly acceptable. Whatever the reason for his killing, if not accidental, the chance of it having anything to do with his anti-war statements is miniscule.

Member of the armed forces?
Been there, done that, thank you. Twice might I add.

This kind of aggressive bullshit is why war needs respawn points or am I the only one disturbed by all the ex-military people insinuating he deserved it because he suppsoedly expressed anti-war sentiments.

You fail to take into account that they already knew each other, were living together, and had been through life threatening situations together (one of those things that has a tendency to bond people). They wouldve been friends by then. Saying such a thing to a friend is perfectly acceptable. Whatever the reason for his killing, if not accidental, the chance of it having anything to do with his anti-war statements is miniscule.
Then it begs the question, who killed him?

Been there, done that, thank you. Twice might I add.
You do know that even saying what you said is a borderline offence, right?


Jesus, god save us from our armed forces :rolleyes:

Though of course we are assuming too much. It could have been that Tilman was mouthing off and a few individuals (not the entire unit, maybe even one person) decided that they should frag him. The government then trys to spin this case of fratricide into some big hero story. Which is my best bet.

Is this normal practice in the military? Do comradeship and honour and going through pretty horrible traumas together and such things really mean nothing?

I bet he was fragged because he said "something he shouldn't have".

Gotta love military types. That's not to say all of them are bad... But, it still stands: There are a lot of assholes, indeed near-Fascists in the military. Abu Ghraib showed that quite clearly.

Maybe once you get higher up.

In my short time in the military(MEPS and weekend training), I have met the friendliest people I have ever known. Never before has it been so easy for me to talk with people, etc. Alot of them have different political beliefs than me, but I mostly keep out of those discussions. Otherwise, though, its incredibly friendly, helpful, etc.

This kind of aggressive bullshit is why war needs respawn points.

Unless you can dance all day!

You do know that even saying what you said is a borderline offence, right?


Jesus, god save us from our armed forces :rolleyes:
Well I never said this was something I considered while enlisted in the U.S. did I? I wasn't even deployed in combat here. And that's another thing about not being in the military: I can say almost anything I want, I can crticize the president etc. Though, with the ways things are going, we may not be able to do tha tin public anymore, eh?

Though you guys are correct. Fratricide is serious business. And if it was the case, who covered it up, the unit or the government?

Unless you can dance all day!
I heard they nerfed bunny-hopping in RL, sadly, even bunny-hopping won't protect you from psycho teammates.

So, explain how someone who thinks Chomsky is the shizzle would become a Ranger in time of war. Eh?

Not saying he's the big hero for doing it - just saying he isn't the Chomsky type for doing what he did.
Only Tillman could answer that. He enlisted in the military in order to fight in Afghanistan. He believed that that was where the threat lay, not in Iraq.

It's also possible that he disagreed with Chomsky on the Afghan intervention. He was a fan of Chomsky; he didn't think that he was the second coming.

Just to let everyone know, my calling Tillman a traitor was sarcastic.

I also have no reason to believe that the fratricide was deliberate.

Just to let everyone know, my calling Tillman a traitor was sarcastic.

I also have no reason to believe that the fratricide was deliberate.
But the problem is, now that it's all been spun to heck, anything is possible now, no?

But the problem is, now that it's all been spun to heck, anything is possible now, no?
Some things are less likely than others, however.

It is far more plausible that the US Army screwed up yet again, than some close-knit political murder conspiracy.

But the problem is, now that it's all been spun to heck, anything is possible now, no?
Do you think I am being overly naive in believing that American soldiers don't just randomly shoot each other on purpose?

" ... family and friends are now unveiling "a side of Pat Tillman not widely known-a fiercely independent thinker who enlisted, fought and died in service to his country yet was critical of President Bush and opposed the war in Iraq, where he served a tour of duty."

Tillman was slain by friendly fire in Afghanistan on 22 April 2004.
Which, IMHO, makes him even more of a hero.

Do you think I am being overly naive in believing that American soldiers don't just randomly shoot each other on purpose?
Well, to be fair, they did in Vietnam. But this is just too far-fetched.

Why is he a traitor?

Why is he a traitor?
Questionable choice of reading material, apparently.

I bet he was fragged because he said "something he shouldn't have".

Gotta love military types. That's not to say all of them are bad... But, it still stands: There are a lot of assholes, indeed near-Fascists in the military. Abu Ghraib showed that quite clearly.
You truly are unbelievable. I seldom find myself at a loss for words, but you have succeeded in rendering me virtually speechless. If you don't like us, at least have the common decency to keep to yourself opinions like this that are hurtful and serve no useful purpose whatsoever.

Well, to be fair, they did in Vietnam. But this is just too far-fetched.
Not that I ever saw ... ever!

You truly are unbelievable. I seldom find myself at a loss for words, but you have succeeded in rendering me virtually speechless. If you don't like us, at least have the common decency to keep to yourself opinions like this that are hurtful and serve no useful purpose whatsoever.
Nothing he said was fractionally as inflammatory or as sweeping as things you have said.

Do you think I am being overly naive in believing that American soldiers don't just randomly shoot each other on purpose?
Pat Tillman deserves an honest death.All men do, enemy or not. All avenues and possibilities should be examined.

You truly are unbelievable. I seldom find myself at a loss for words, but you have succeeded in rendering me virtually speechless. If you don't like us, at least have the common decency to keep to yourself opinions like this that are hurtful and serve no useful purpose whatsoever.
I don't see you jumping to condemn your fellow soldier who said that he would have killed his superior officer if he showed himself to be politically unreliable. Hypocrisy, ahoy!

...doubting the political reasons for going to war does not amount to treason, does not prove anything about someone's combat effectiveness, and is certainly not a reason to kill someone illegally in the field. Jesus.

Yes, Pat Tilman is not the person to criticize in this story. Nor is wariness of the opinions of military personel the lesson to be learned.

She tried to discredit the story as San Francisco agitprop, but this approach ran into a slight problem: The article's source was Pat Tillman's mother, Mary.

With this and the work of Cindy Sheehan, clearly the lesson to be learned is that the mothers of servicemen are enemies of this country. Let the word be spread in the GOP talking point memos. "Ladies, if your son goes to war, you are a target." Their hatred of this country is leading these war mothers to turn their heroic sons into posthumous anti-war puppets. They must be stopped. Let no man with a mother ever again serve in the military. Their work cannot be trusted, for as soon as they die they will become ghosts in service of the demonic, pacific, left.

Why is he a traitor?
That was sarcasm. He was not a traitor. I was just imitating the rabid war hawks in America who shout "traitor!" everytime someone disagrees with Bush.

If you don't like us, at least have the common decency to keep to yourself opinions like this that are hurtful and serve no useful purpose whatsoever.
Free speech, anyone? You've said far, far worse things about anti-war protestors.

This article is bogus. I trust your source, Information Clearing House, less than Al Jazeera.

ICH is run by one guy, with no journalistic background, whose politics are obvious.

He disguises false and misleading articles, by surrounding them with real ones. In the website's own "purpose and intent" page, he admitts that some of his material comes from wire-services and international press, while other "sources" are merely reader-contributed content.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/intent.htm

I don't see you jumping to condemn your fellow soldier who said that he would have killed his superior officer if he showed himself to be politically unreliable. Hypocrisy, ahoy!
If you read my post I said if I couldn't trust the guy such a course would come into consideration. Or am I the only person here with a Plan X? My loyalties lie to my unit, then my country.

If you read my post I said if I couldn't trust the guy such a course would come into consideration. Or am I the only person here with a Plan X ?
Well, you are the only person here who is manifestly not fit to serve. Until the day I put on a military uniform, I am a blank page, but it is plainly obvious you are not suited.

Tillman was a hero. Period. Walking away from a life of luxury to that of a ranger in the field is enough. I beleive that is enough.

As a scout, I understand that my chances of fratacide is more than 20 times higher than of standard infantry. The only thing that is certain in war is uncertainty. Fratracide is terrible, but is a unintentional part of war. You can do everything right, and still be killed. It just part of being a scout, part of being a ranger.

If you have never been part of a line unit, even if you have been in the military, then there are things that you will never understand about espree de corp, loyalty to your fellow soldier, and accepting fate.

The idea that he was targeted is the work of anti military consperisy theorist nutjobs.

Well, you are the only person here who is manifestly not fit to serve. Until the day I put on a military uniform, I am a blank page, but it is plainly obvious you are not suited.
You say that because your loyalties lie to your country and not your unit.

You say that because your loyalties lie to your country and not your unit.

If you are seriously about being killing a team member because of a statement that they made, then your loyalties lie only with yourself. You have no place on the line.

You say that because your loyalties lie to your country and not your unit.
And so it should be, for that way lies corruption. Murder, in your case, theft or drug trafficing in another...

If you are seriously about being killing a team member because of a statement that they made, then your loyalties lie only with yourself. You have no place on the line.
Hold up! I'm not talking about a mere statement here, I'm talking about a history of unprofessionalism in addition to language of a particular nature. I theorized that it was possible for some fuck-head to misconstrue multiple comments from Tillman and take advantage of situation to do harm.

Now what constitues a history of unprofessionalism is where individual jusgement lies.

Hold up! I'm not talking about a mere statement here, I'm talking about a history of unprofessionalism in addition to language of a particular nature. I theorized that it was possible for some fuck-head to misconstrue multiple comments from Tillman and take advantage of situation to do harm.

Now what constitues a history of unprofessionalism is where individual jusgement lies.
'
What history of unprofessionalism? This article is the only time that I've ever heard of it. Everything that I've ever heard about Tillman said that he was a model ranger and NCO.

What ever his personal beliefs about the war in Iraq, he understood that Islamo fascist are the single greatest threat to society in the 21st century. He made multiple statements before he joined the rangers to that effect.

One other thing that sticks out to me about this article. He was in the Stan. According to the article, this is the war he signed up to fight. Why would he we sitting on a hill, watching the bombardment of a stronghold, and say "this war is so fucking illegal" and mean Iraq? Public statements that Tillman made do not mesh with this article. I will do my best to try and find some of these press statements.

'
What history of unprofessionalism? This article is the only time that I've ever heard of it. Everything that I've ever heard about Tillman said that he was a model ranger and NCO.

What ever his personal beliefs about the war in Iraq, he understood that Islamo fascist are the single greatest threat to society in the 21st century. He made multiple statements before he joined the rangers to that effect.

One other thing that sticks out to me about this article. He was in the Stan. According to the article, this is the war he signed up to fight. Why would he we sitting on a hill, watching the bombardment of a stronghold, and say "this war is so fucking illegal" and mean Iraq? Public statements that Tillman made do not mesh with this article. I will do my best to try and find some of these press statements.
Not to change the subject, but are there other sources for this article? I can't really find anything else.

Not to change the subject, but are there other sources for this article? I can't really find anything else.

I found that he was originally sent to Iraq, something that I didn't know. Other than finding sites that quote this article word for word, I'm having trouble finding some of the quotes that I heard on the news.

'
What history of unprofessionalism? This article is the only time that I've ever heard of it. Everything that I've ever heard about Tillman said that he was a model ranger and NCO.

What ever his personal beliefs about the war in Iraq, he understood that Islamo fascist are the single greatest threat to society in the 21st century. He made multiple statements before he joined the rangers to that effect.

One other thing that sticks out to me about this article. He was in the Stan. According to the article, this is the war he signed up to fight. Why would he we sitting on a hill, watching the bombardment of a stronghold, and say "this war is so fucking illegal" and mean Iraq? Public statements that Tillman made do not mesh with this article. I will do my best to try and find some of these press statements.
Tillman signed up in response to 9/11 and wanted to go to Afghanistan, which he did--however, he also did Iraq time between his two Afghanistan tours, and that's apparently when he made the statements about the Iraq War that are attributed to him.

Personally, I don't find it difficult to believe that Tillman believed as he did, but I also don't believe that he was fragged. None of the stories I've read lead to that conclusion--a victim of friendly fire, yes, but not fragged.

I found that he was originally sent to Iraq, something that I didn't know. Other than finding sites that quote this article word for word, I'm having trouble finding some of the quotes that I heard on the news.


Exactly my point. See my previous post.

Tillman signed up in response to 9/11 and wanted to go to Afghanistan, which he did--however, he also did Iraq time between his two Afghanistan tours, and that's apparently when he made the statements about the Iraq War that are attributed to him.

Personally, I don't find it difficult to believe that Tillman believed as he did, but I also don't believe that he was fragged. None of the stories I've read lead to that conclusion--a victim of friendly fire, yes, but not fragged.

Something that every Ranger, and every scout knows is more likely to happen to them than any other soldier. It is always on your mind as you appoach a check point or post un announced. It truely does suck, but it is something that happens, no matter how many precautions you take.

If you read my post I said if I couldn't trust the guy such a course would come into consideration. Or am I the only person here with a Plan X? My loyalties lie to my unit, then my country.
Your loyalties in the army lie to your country above all. Perhaps you forget this. If your superior officer orders you to destroy your country, you disobey your superior officer. If your unit rebels against the proper authority of the United States, attempting to destroy our country, and you follow them, then you are little more then dirt, a rank traitor.

Your loyalties in the army lie to your country above all. Perhaps you forget this. If your superior officer orders you to destroy your country, you disobey your superior officer. If your unit rebels against the proper authority of the United States, attempting to destroy our country, and you follow them, then you are little more then dirt, a rank traitor.
Agreed.

If you read my post I said if I couldn't trust the guy such a course would come into consideration. Or am I the only person here with a Plan X? My loyalties lie to my unit, then my country.
Your loyalties in the army lie to your country above all. Perhaps you forget this. If your superior officer orders you to destroy your country, you disobey your superior officer. If your unit rebels against the proper authority of the United States, attempting to destroy our country, and you follow them, then you are little more then dirt, a rank traitor.
Agreed
Skyfork, can you understand why some of us might consider your above statements to be contradictory?