NationStates Jolt Archive

Ask yourself this question, then answer this poll, then debate the issue.

Yes, immediatly, as an Englishmen, I feel the carnage has proceeded for long enough, and admittedly, civil war will inevitable ensue, but the coalition's presence serves only to unite the militants, whereas a power struggle will prove divisive and negate the threat posed to the UK and USA.

Yes.

Let the ensuing civil war act as a lesson to yet another generation, not to meddle in other people's affairs.

Then we can revisit the issue around 2040.

Yes.

But not yet.

Not until there's a government in place that's strong enough to fight the insurgents on it's own.

Not until there's a government in place that's strong enough to fight the insurgents on it's own.
What if it never happens? What if the Iraqi government is doomed to defeat?

Why don't American troops just pull out and let them die as slow and painful as they want! They don't really need the US helping them along do they.

if the US army try to help (which they did) and get attacked by the people who they are "helping" (which happened to them) then they should withdraw, from both places! :)

What if it never happens? What if the Iraqi government is doomed to defeat?
If it doesn't happen in, oh, let's say 50 years we'll leave. Ok?

Ask yourself this question, then answer this poll, then depate the issue.

Don't you mean "debate"?

If it doesn't happen in, oh, let's say 50 years we'll leave. Ok?
I think you will find few of your countrymen sharing your committment.

I think you will find few of your countrymen sharing your committment.
Unfortunately I think you're right.

What if it never happens? What if the Iraqi government is doomed to defeat?

There is not Iraqi government: there is an american puppet, and armed factions. There were armed factions before, but the all stood quiet, even Al Sadr.

The same with Afghanisthan, the "official" government only reaches Kabul and some kilometers beyond; the country is STILL divided in warlords. And the Talibans are fu****g again.

And yesterday the US Army took the NY Underground so, what has changed?

This: Now there are 40,000 more corpses.

The poll needs another option. Yes, withdraw from Iraq. But only so those unappreciative people can kill each other off. Anyone sane enough to not want to go back to an oppressive evil dictator, or live under an oppressive theocracy will be give a free ride to Turkey.

Dop the war. If there was peace, the terrorists would not attack.

Or alternatively (i think i spelt that right, or maybe not) build a giant satellite and destroy the country and take over the remains! :gundge: :D

Eventually. But definitely not now.

Actually, as far as I know the US withdrew almost all troops from Afghanistan anyway, leaving German UN troops there to hold down the fort while they themselves went to Iraq. But that's beside the point.
If US/UN troops leave either of those countries now, the chaos that will ensue will soon account for the next war and armed conflict.
You started it, you are there now, so sort it out, will ya?

Dop the war. If there was peace, the terrorists would not attack.
I call bullshit on that. There was peace before 9/11, peace before the USS Cole bombing, peace before the African embassy bombings, peace before the first attack on the WTC. The terrorists don't need serious provocation to attack us.

I call bullshit on that. There was peace before 9/11, peace before the USS Cole bombing, peace before the African embassy bombings, peace before the first attack on the WTC. The terrorists don't need serious provocation to attack us.
But Al-Qaeda did not do 11/9. Bush did, so he can start the war. Bush should drop the war now.

I was in favor of overthrowing the Taliban and Saddam, but now that we've done that, it's time to leave. We can use secret operatives to track bin Laden, we don't need an army to find him (not to mention the army hasn't done a very good job of finding him). Let the Iraqis and Afghanis fight out their differences without us being around to get caught in the crossfire.

Then, once we get the army out of those two countries, invade North Korea! That country poses a bigger threat to us than Iraq or Afghanistan ever did.

I call bullshit on that. There was peace before 9/11, peace before the USS Cole bombing, peace before the African embassy bombings, peace before the first attack on the WTC. The terrorists don't need serious provocation to attack us.

I wouldn't really call the relations between most Arab nations and the USA before the terrorist attacks "peace", but I agree that wihdrawal now would only worsen the situation.

Dop the war. If there was peace, the terrorists would not attack.


Not true. Israel has tried that. They withdrew peacefully from the north, what happened? Hezbollah declared a victory and INCREASED their terrorist acts. Israel withdrew from the West Bank. What happened? Terrorists began importing explosives and weapons at a staggering rate from Egypt. Terrorists don't care about peace. They only care about inflicting as much death and destruction as they can. You cannot try negotiating with them. You cannot give a little ground and try for a peaceful settlement. All it does is make them think they are winning, so they attack more.

But Al-Qaeda did not do 11/9. Bush did, so he can start the war. Bush should drop the war now.

Not this shit again! :(

But Al-Qaeda did not do 11/9. Bush did, so he can start the war. Bush should drop the war now.
No, Paul Mccartney's pet baby donkey did. Didn't you learn anything from our discussion yesterday?

ummm, no

a)while we're there, we're drawing terrorists from all over the middle east... it's like a huge turkey shoot -- gather them up and slaughter them.

b)while we're there, Iraq's new-found freedom/vote/government has a chance to succeed. If we leave now, all that goes down the drain and the 80%+ will once against be oppressed by the bad guys.

in my opinion, this is really a stupid question in light of A and B.

I was in favor of overthrowing the Taliban and Saddam, but now that we've done that, it's time to leave. We can use secret operatives to track bin Laden, we don't need an army to find him (not to mention the army hasn't done a very good job of finding him). Let the Iraqis and Afghanis fight out their differences without us being around to get caught in the crossfire.

Then, once we get the army out of those two countries, invade North Korea! That country poses a bigger threat to us than Iraq or Afghanistan ever did.

Going into a country, overthrowing the stabilising power, taking a look at the general mess that's created and tell the locals "Sort it out yourself, we brought you this glorious state of civil war... erm, freedom, so you'd better be grateful" is one foolproof way of making sure to have the next war and reason for invasion ready within 10 years. Bush senior did a good job there, providing distraction and entertainment for his boy...

Not this shit again! :(
I was going to say the same thing. *passes around the tinfoil*

I can tell you what the US should have done.

Should have put more troops on the ground in Afghanistan war, should not have allowed the Taliban to disperse, should not have allowed the Kunduz airlift, should have followed OBL, AQ cadres and fleeing taliban into Pakistan, should have taken the war to Pakistan and should have captured or killed OBL, Zawahiri, Mullah Omar, and the top brass of AQ and Taliban and its Paki affiliates of Jaish e Mohammed, Lashkar eToiba, Harkat ul Mujahideen, Sipah e Sahaba, Whatsit e Whatnot and should have finished the jihadis once and for all, should have issued ultimatum to the Al Saud house that either they crack down on the funding of saudi wahabis to jihadis or they would be facing a regime change.

That would have been my response if it had been me in charge.

But no, Bush invades Iraq. :headbang: :mad:

Eventually. But definitely not now.

. ..

If US/UN troops leave either of those countries now, the chaos that will ensue will soon account for the next war and armed conflict.
You started it, you are there now, so sort it out, will ya?

I agree. I didn't support going into Iraq for myriad reasons (how it was sold, how it was planned, etc) but right now is not the time to leave. If we're going to do it, we must do it right.

I was in favor of overthrowing the Taliban and Saddam, but now that we've done that, it's time to leave. We can use secret operatives to track bin Laden, we don't need an army to find him (not to mention the army hasn't done a very good job of finding him). Let the Iraqis and Afghanis fight out their differences without us being around to get caught in the crossfire.

Then, once we get the army out of those two countries, invade North Korea! That country poses a bigger threat to us than Iraq or Afghanistan ever did.
Al Quaeda settled in Afghanistan because it was a lawless war torn mess. If the US leaves Iraq and Afghanistan now we leave behind two lawless war torn messes. We'd just be creating more terrorist training camps.

But Al-Qaeda did not do 11/9. Bush did, so he can start the war. Bush should drop the war now.


You're lucky you are on the other side of a computer screen. You wouldn't dare say that to anyone who lost someone in that attack's face.

Not until there's a government in place that's strong enough to fight the insurgents on it's own.

amen, EXACTLY.

I agree. I didn't support going into Iraq for myriad reasons (how it was sold, how it was planned, etc) but right now is not the time to leave. If we're going to do it, we must do it right.

Personally, I opposed both invasions as pointless, rash and not very likely to achieve the proclaimed goals.
But the invasion happened, the situation changed, and at the moment a wthdrawal cannot be justified in any way.

But Al-Qaeda did not do 11/9. Bush did, so he can start the war. Bush should drop the war now.

horseshit... completely unsupportable.

No, Paul Mccartney's pet baby donkey did. Didn't you learn anything from our discussion yesterday?
Liar! You just want to make me stop trying to tell what i KNOW. Thats right, not THINK, but KNOW. And thats just what you said about the pentagon. What about the WTC?? Bush did it.

horseshit... completely unsupportable.
Don't bother with him. He has nothing of value to say.

Liar! You just want to make me stop trying to tell what i KNOW. Thats right, not THINK, but KNOW. And thats just what you said about the pentagon. What about the WTC?? Bush did it.
Proof?

horseshit... completely unsupportable.
Tennessee is a red state, and that makes your bush-supporting argument invalid.

Liar! You just want to make me stop trying to tell what i KNOW. Thats right, not THINK, but KNOW. And thats just what you said about the pentagon. What about the WTC?? Bush did it.
Meh, I think you did it. I'm calling the FBI now.

Not true. Israel has tried that. They withdrew peacefully from the north, what happened? Hezbollah declared a victory and INCREASED their terrorist acts. Israel withdrew from the West Bank. What happened? Terrorists began importing explosives and weapons at a staggering rate from Egypt. Terrorists don't care about peace. They only care about inflicting as much death and destruction as they can. You cannot try negotiating with them. You cannot give a little ground and try for a peaceful settlement. All it does is make them think they are winning, so they attack more.

I think you are new at this thing of terrorism, so I understand you don't know how to combat it.

Every terrorist kill for a reason. Talking with them is the end of the problem. Look the IRA, if we move your opinion to Ireland, you would be an Unionist... yeah, those who are trying to fuck the things now that everything is over...

Here with ETA is the same. In 1998 they sat to negotiate with PP's government, and they declared a truce for an indefinite time. But the all-clever Aznar arrested ETA's representatives, and the teorrists started bombing again.

You can't believe Bush if talks about terrorism, because he has no idea.

--------

And the Palestinian terrorists; some of them want Israel to cease its existence; and the Palestinian National Authority has not enough resources to end with them.

Tennessee is a red state, and that makes your bush-supporting argument invalid.

Huh??? :confused:

Boy, I've seen nutters on here before, but you take the cake...

Proof?
Go here. (http://911research.wtc7.net/)

Liar! You just want to make me stop trying to tell what i KNOW. Thats right, not THINK, but KNOW. And thats just what you said about the pentagon. What about the WTC?? Bush did it.

go back to your room in the psychiatric ward... when you get there, take some haloperidol.

i'm going to introduce a word to you:

LIBEL

you've just committed it.

go back to your room in the psychiatric ward... when you get there, take some haloperidol.

i'm going to introduce a word to you:

LIBEL

you've just committed it.
what are you talking about?

Tennessee is a red state, and that makes your bush-supporting argument invalid.

you are nuts

or a terrorist.

Huh??? :confused:

Boy, I've seen nutters on here before, but you take the cake...

What about TRA and his psudonyms?

Don't award him the Nuttiest Award until he earns it!

Go here. (http://911research.wtc7.net/)
Any other links besides someone trying to sell me a book?

What about TRA and his psudonyms?

Don't award him the Nuttiest Award until he earns it!

TRA? Don't remember him... what were his pseudonyms?

Libel:

a)A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation.

b)The act of presenting such material to the public.

really desperate... your blind hatred of President Bush has led you to commit libel. nice.

Any other links besides someone trying to sell me a book?

what, is it written by someone named Faruq al-Faqtar ibn al-Kumquat or something like that?

lol

Go here. (http://911research.wtc7.net/)
Your site's funny. It tries to debunk Michael Shermer, the Scientific Amercan magazine skeptical columnist. In fact he did a pretty good job of debunking your site. All they could acutally criticize him for was a for quoting an erronious number that they (the web based wackos that you linked to) posted.

I think the US should stay in Afghanistan. Look at the progress being made so far, Afghans are very happy. Way better than Iraq at least.

I also think the US should stay in Iraq despite my opposition to this pointless war. Yes the US is screwing up this country but if they left, Iraq would fall into a civil war. The Americans shouldn't be there in the first place.

As I'm writing this post, you are wondering why I'm not in school today (and no it's not thanksgiving today nor being suspended).

unless you want the insurgents and saddam like people to take over again they should not leave.

Meh, I think you did it. I'm calling the FBI now.
No. I did not.

what, is it written by someone named Faruq al-Faqtar ibn al-Kumquat or something like that?

lol
Nothing so hilarious. Just more 9/11 profiteers. They're common like telemarkters now. :rolleyes:

unless you want the insurgents and saddam like people to take over again they should not leave.

Whyever not, admittedly an oppressive dictator is not entirely desirable, but if he were to be sympathetic to the needs of the coalition, why not, it is preferable to more senseless coalition fatalities.

Dop the war. If there was peace, the terrorists would not attack.
Riiiiiiiiiiight.

I think the US should stay in Afghanistan. Look at the progress being made so far, Afghans are very happy.
You're kidding me.

For one thing, women in Afghanistan enjoyed far greater freedom under the Soviet occupation, and women in Iraq the same under Saddam Hussein. Those secular dictatorships at least guaranteed the right to education all the way up to postgraduate level, and professional standing. Now that's gone.

So that's more than 50% of their respective populations unhappy.

No. I did not.
I know you did.

You're kidding me.

For one thing, women in Afghanistan enjoyed far greater freedom under the Soviet occupation, and women in Iraq the same under Saddam Hussein. Those secular dictatorships at least guaranteed the right to education all the way up to postgraduate level, and professional standing. Now that's gone.

So that's more than 50% of their respective populations unhappy.

The Sovjets were thrown out of Afghanistan ages ago and have stopped exisiting since. And the Taliban didn't really regard women's rights as a priority issue, now, did they?

Yes, one thing about the democratic process is that it does take longer and is more complicated than a simple, straightforward dictatorship. But I would still opt for democracy any day.

Riiiiiiiiiiight.
There is proof on wikipedia.

I know you did.
where is your proof?

Afghans are not happy, this is not the Afghanistan envisoned by the Lion on Panshir, Massoud. This is an insult with some small little puppet there. You Americans dont seem to be able to grasp the concept that Iraq and Afghanistan are not yours. I place National Sovreignty over Democracy, plus the so called democracy in the US is not the enlightened liberal movement you people pretend it to be. Me, I would rather my nation be independant than have a puppet democracy enforced upon me.

where is your proof?
The FBI will gather it for me.

where is your proof?

that's the neat thing about allegations... you don't have to have proof to make them.

you DO, however, have to have proof if you want anyone to believe you... and not "proof" from some muckraker with a financial incentive to commit libel or who simply does it because he hates the person and wishes that person to be shamed/ridiculed.

The FBI will gather it for me.
No. you need your own proof. The official 11/9 report has many holes in it, yours has even more.

So people REALLY think we (the U.S. that is) should invade North Korea huh?

that's the neat thing about allegations... you don't have to have proof to make them.

you DO, however, have to have proof if you want anyone to believe you... and not "proof" from some muckraker with a financial incentive to commit libel or who simply does it because he hates the person and wishes that person to be shamed/ridiculed.
I am not giving away this info for that reason. i am giving it because the official story has holes in it.

Will yoy guys stop #$%^ING SAY 11/9 insted of 9/11?!?!?!?

No. you need your own proof. The official 11/9 report has many holes in it, yours has even more.
I can't reveal my evidence against you because I work for the NSA and I've been tapping your phone and email communications. The incriminating evidence against you is classified above top secret.

Or maybe I'm as full of crap as your conspiracy theory.

Will yoy guys stop #$%^ING SAY 11/9 insted of 9/11?!?!?!?
What?? I am Polish, and in Poland 9/11 would mean the ninth of november, so I say 11/9.

There is proof on wikipedia.
Wikipedia articles can be submited by anyone.

The war in Iraq is just another front of the same old song. The 5% muslim population of the Philippines is a perfect example out of that. This tiny 5% wishes to secede and create their own nation within all the while indulging in drug trafficking, kidnappings, terrorist attacks and piracy. Why should we the people give this 5% any land? They contribute nothing to our economy, or our culture and we did not use force to attempt to disuade them from this, instead their first response was open warfare.

This is the kind of people you deal with. Their goal is to first create a state within established states and then create a stable infrastructure with which to wage war upon and impose Sharia law on others near them. Those that do not convert will be killed.

You can cite all the internet fiction you want, I have lived it.

So people REALLY think we (the U.S. that is) should invade North Korea huh?
Not really, I was just disappointed in the poll options so I clicked that one. I think maybe we should bomb N. Korea's reactors and military facilities if they don't disarm, but I don't think that we should invade.

I can't reveal my evidence against you because I work for the NSA and I've been tapping your phone and email communications. The incriminating evidence against you is classified above top secret.

Or maybe I'm as full of crap as your conspiracy theory.

I would normally tell to to stop feeding the troll... but this is far too much fun to watch. Go on *cheers

Not really, I was just disappointed in the poll options so I clicked that one. I think maybe we should bomb N. Korea's reactors and military facilities if they don't disarm, but I don't think that we should invade.

Interesting question.. .would a reactor count as a civilian target?

Interesting question.. .would a reactor count as a civilian target?
Well, it's producing plutonium for N. Korean nuclear weapons, so it's like bombing a factory that makes weapons. Is bombing an enemy's shipyards and arms factories during wartime considered attacking military or civilian targets?

Interesting question.. .would a reactor count as a civilian target?

C'mon, c'mon, more war, we want it, we need it!

Four more wars! Four more wars!

Well, it's producing plutonium for N. Korean nuclear weapons, so it's like bombing a factory that makes weapons. Is bombing an enemy's shipyards and arms factories during wartime considered attacking military or civilian targets?
It's a valid target. Anything that provides support to a military makes it a target. Powerplants are valid targets. We dropped bombs that clustered out high-conductive tensile wire over powerplants in Belgrade. Shorted them out instantly.