NationStates Jolt Archive

This has been inspired by the "Why it's great to be Irish" (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=448149) thread.
After reading the original post, I basically just waited for a good number of Americans showing up telling the world how proud they were to be Irish. And I didn't have to wait long at all.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not telling anybody what culture they should feel related to, but... if you were born in a place and grew up there, don't you somehow feel that you belong there rather than to an island you never set foot on and really only know from your parents or even grandparents stories?

You see, in a way I'm a similar case: My mother is German, my father is Austrian. I was born in Austria, but lived in Germany from the age of 3, spending about 2-3 months each year in Austria. I don't claim to be Austrian, I'm German. Why? Because that's where my socialisation happened mostly, that's the language (accent) I speak, that's where I went to school, that's where I went to university, that's where most of my friends were (that changed slightly when I came to Ireland).
I live in Ireland these days, and I'll definitely stay here for another few years, maybe more. But that won't turn me into an Irishwoman. I'll always be a German living in Ireland, even if I do get an Irish passport one day.

So, why would you ever want to belong to another culture than the one you were born into and grew up in? Are you trying to sound exotic in some way, different from the rest? Do you identify with the - most likely romantic and nostalgic - image of this mythical place that your parents and grandparents created when they told you about it? What's the reason?

I think part of the issue here is roots. In the US, we have no true claim as being "from this land". So what was once a racial epithet ("those stupid micks" for example) eventually became a badge of honor. The Irish (and any other ethnic group that came to the US in the early 20th century (and even before that)) were here looking for opportunity. At first they were shunned, then slowly accepted. But at the time, you either hid your "nationality, or wore it on your sleeve so your "brothers from a different mother" knew you could be identifed as one of the group.

Eventually, as the melting pot melted ever so slowly, many groups never came to be "Americanized" so much. My grandparents taught me to be proud to be Irish in America, they never said American. We were always "Irish in America". So I have been instilled with that ethnic pride, as have many other people I know who are proud of their ethnicity.

Anyway...that's my explanation.

I think part of the issue here is roots. In the US, we have no true claim as being "from this land". So what was once a racial epithet ("those stupid micks" for example) eventually became a badge of honor. The Irish (and any other ethnic group that came to the US in the early 20th century (and even before that)) were here looking for opportunity. At first they were shunned, then slowly accepted. But at the time, you either hid your "nationality, or wore it on your sleeve so your "brothers from a different mother" knew you could be identifed as one of the group.

Eventually, as the melting pot melted ever so slowly, many groups never came to be "Americanized" so much. My grandparents taught me to be proud to be Irish in America, they never said American. We were always "Irish in America". So I have been instilled with that ethnic pride, as have many other people I know who are proud of their ethnicity.

Anyway...that's my explanation.
yeah. my Grandfather's parents came here from Ireland, they had to sell everything they owned to make the trip, and then had to change thier last name to get work. They came here with nothing and had to work really hard, but they eventually got everything back and more. When they were alive, the fact that they were Irish is something they felt they had to hide, my Grandpa would admit it, my mom was proud to be Irish (even though she was only 1/2) , and now I think it is pretty cool to have such a rich heritage. I still have family in Ireland but they don't talk to us because they feel like we 'abandoned them'.

Okay I don't really think I made any kind of sense there. sorry.

I think part of the issue here is roots. In the US, we have no true claim as being "from this land". So what was once a racial epithet ("those stupid micks" for example) eventually became a badge of honor. The Irish (and any other ethnic group that came to the US in the early 20th century (and even before that)) were here looking for opportunity. At first they were shunned, then slowly accepted. But at the time, you either hid your "nationality, or wore it on your sleeve so your "brothers from a different mother" knew you could be identifed as one of the group.

Eventually, as the melting pot melted ever so slowly, many groups never came to be "Americanized" so much. My grandparents taught me to be proud to be Irish in America, they never said American. We were always "Irish in America". So I have been instilled with that ethnic pride, as have many other people I know who are proud of their ethnicity.

Anyway...that's my explanation.

Sounds like the dream image explanation to me.
I don't know when your grandparents came to America, but I'm quite positive that Ireland today would be very little like they remember it. Very much like my grandmother, who came to Germany after WW II. Even though she went back to Austria at least once every year, that country she told me about wasn't the one I got to know when I was there.

While I can understand that upbringing has a lot to do with the idea of nationality, I do find it slightly odd to feel culturally affiliated to a country you only have second hand information about. No offense.

Sounds like the dream image explanation to me.
I don't know when your grandparents came to America, but I'm quite positive that Ireland today would be very little like they remember it. Very much like my grandmother, who came to Germany after WW II. Even though she went back to Austria at least once every year, that country she told me about wasn't the one I got to know when I was there.

While I can understand that upbringing has a lot to do with the idea of nationality, I do find it slightly odd to feel culturally affiliated to a country you only have second hand information about. No offense.

None taken. But remember, the idea that I have had (essentially) put upon me is that I am to be proud to be Irish in America, not just Irish. There is a slight difference. I mean, I grew up in a neighborhood that was pre-dominantly Irish, in a town basically built by the Irish. Therefore the idea is appealing.

My gradparents would be hard pressed to try to get to Ireland, and in the case of my late great great uncle, whom I'm named after, he was forced to leave under mysterious circumstances (apparently involving Michael Collins). So, it's hard to say. But I'd rather be proud to be an Irish-American than to try to lay claim to Native American roots just saying "I'm American", if you follow my meaning.

So, why would you ever want to belong to another culture than the one you were born into and grew up in? Are you trying to sound exotic in some way, different from the rest? Do you identify with the - most likely romantic and nostalgic - image of this mythical place that your parents and grandparents created when they told you about it? What's the reason?


I think it's what you've been told as you grow up, and how you and your family identify yourselves. Both my parents are fairly 'new' to the US - my father was born here, but his parents were from Italy, and my mother immigrated here from Ecuador when she was 16. That heritage is still present, even for my father who was never actually in Italy.

None taken. But remember, the idea that I have had (essentially) put upon me is that I am to be proud to be Irish in America, not just Irish. There is a slight difference. I mean, I grew up in a neighborhood that was pre-dominantly Irish, in a town basically built by the Irish. Therefore the idea is appealing.

My gradparents would be hard pressed to try to get to Ireland, and in the case of my late great great uncle, whom I'm named after, he was forced to leave under mysterious circumstances (apparently involving Michael Collins). So, it's hard to say. But I'd rather be proud to be an Irish-American than to try to lay claim to Native American roots just saying "I'm American", if you follow my meaning.

Moral dilemma, hm? Yes, I can understand that. But then again, you are now no longer calling yourself Irish but Irish American, which does give the claim a whole different meaning.
You're just saying that you are American of Irish descent, not Irish of Irish descent. You are just refering to your ancestors, no longer claiming their culture as your own. That's a more than valid statement.

Nationality is a combination of linguistic, cultural, religious and geographic factors. Sometimes the roles that are played by each factor can be reduced or enlarged.

America is only a step-motherland for most of us Americans. My family is French, Irish, English and American Indian in heritage. We have been in America since the late 1700's, so I do not call myself French or English or Irish or Indian. I am American only and would never dream of saying to a Frenchman, "Oh I'm French too."

Most Americans are only 1st, 2nd, or 3rd generation Americans; it only makes sense that they still identify themselves as being Polish, Irish, etc.



Also, here it is hard to hide your ethnicity. There are a plethora of ethnic sounding surnames. Not everyone is Applegate or Banks as in England or O'Shea or O'Malley as in Ireland or DuBois or Marchand as in France. Even though you were born in the US, your family's ethnic history is plain for all to see.

I'm Polish/Irish/Native American/French/what-have-you, so its simpler just to not have any strong feeligns for any nation in general. ^_~

This has been inspired by the "Why it's great to be Irish" (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=448149) thread.
After reading the original post, I basically just waited for a good number of Americans showing up telling the world how proud they were to be Irish. And I didn't have to wait long at all.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not telling anybody what culture they should feel related to, but... if you were born in a place and grew up there, don't you somehow feel that you belong there rather than to an island you never set foot on and really only know from your parents or even grandparents stories?

You see, in a way I'm a similar case: My mother is German, my father is Austrian. I was born in Austria, but lived in Germany from the age of 3, spending about 2-3 months each year in Austria. I don't claim to be Austrian, I'm German. Why? Because that's where my socialisation happened mostly, that's the language (accent) I speak, that's where I went to school, that's where I went to university, that's where most of my friends were (that changed slightly when I came to Ireland).
I live in Ireland these days, and I'll definitely stay here for another few years, maybe more. But that won't turn me into an Irishwoman. I'll always be a German living in Ireland, even if I do get an Irish passport one day.

So, why would you ever want to belong to another culture than the one you were born into and grew up in? Are you trying to sound exotic in some way, different from the rest? Do you identify with the - most likely romantic and nostalgic - image of this mythical place that your parents and grandparents created when they told you about it? What's the reason?

I am an American of Irish decent, & you're correct i've never set foot on the Green of Ireland. However, i respect my parents linage & history. And I've noticed from Friends that i have who are from Germany / Austria that your culture is very direct & doesn't accept the soft classifications of other nations, that may embrace thier linage.

I am an American of Irish decent, & you're correct i've never set foot on the Green of Ireland. However, i respect my parents linage & history. And I've noticed from Friends that i have who are from Germany / Austria that your culture is very direct & doesn't accept the soft classifications of other nations, that may embrace thier linage.

I don't know if you're accusing me of rudeness there ;)

I think the correct word is "rational", rather than direct. Analytical and rather scientific regarding most aspects of life. May even seem emotionless to others, but then again, we did make some very nasty experiences with emotions and emotional manipulation.

You may notice that I excluded people who claim to be Irish Americans, meaning Americans of Irish descent. That's a correct and fair assumption, seeing that there is a large Irish American community, which developed its own culture different to that of mainstream America (and different from Irish culture as well) But I can't get my head around people who claim cultural affiliation to a social group they haven't met...

I wouldn't say that lineage isn't important to Germans or Austrians (I was bashed by Austrians for being German, and by Germans for being Austrian, the wrong word in the wrong place can get you into so much trouble), I can list you my family history on both my mother's and my father's side back until 1648. But that's history. That's what made me. It's not who I am today.

Moral dilemma, hm? Yes, I can understand that. But then again, you are now no longer calling yourself Irish but Irish American, which does give the claim a whole different meaning.
You're just saying that you are American of Irish descent, not Irish of Irish descent. You are just refering to your ancestors, no longer claiming their culture as your own. That's a more than valid statement.

Right, but Irish American isn't something commonly said here. You just say Irish, it's easier. Everyone knows what you mean. But it does have a different connotation than being from Europe with a specific accent and claiming to be Irish. Everyone knows the difference here. Like when black people say "I'm and African American".

Yeah, but as a Canadian with Ukranian and Russian forebears (I'm 2nd generation Canadian) I wouldn't dream of saying I was Russian. On my mom's side I've got Irish/Scottish/English blood, and I don't say I'm those either, although that side of the family has been in Canada for a lot longer than my father's side. Maybe it's because I didn't grow up in an ethnic community? Instead it was a general mish-mash of just plain folks.

Of course, if you tell people from Europe that you're a Canadian, they often ask, "But where is your family from? What ancestry?" as though Canadian wasn't a valid answer. And speaking of valid answers, Canadian wasn't a valid answer on our census forms for a long time either - they wanted to know where your ancestors were from.

Anyway, what I would like to say is that nationality, heritage, and ethnicity can be distinct. They can be blended too, don't get me wrong, but they don't all have to have the same focus.

Nationality is what appears in your ID card.

Nationality is what appears in your ID card.
thank you! its where you live retard! :rolleyes:

thank you! its where you live retard! :rolleyes:

Charming!

Well, I was born in Scotland to a 1/2 English 1/2 Scottish mother and an English dad, and have lived in both countries for a few years. I used to speak with a strong scottish accent, and I now speak with an English one.

So I've no idea what nationality that would be, since the UK would be a country, but the nationalities are English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh.

A riddle i've never really solved. We should do away with nationalities forever!

whereever you live now. that is your nationality. has nothing to do with bloodline.

whereever you live now. that is your nationality. has nothing to do with bloodline.

Its about how you identify yourself culturally and ethnically- not merely your place of current residence.

I'm Irish born and bred- my ancestors emigrated in the 1700's from France- Hugenouts fleeing persecution. Even the 'Irish' themselves are a mix- Anglo-Norman, Saxon, Anglo-Irish, French, Spanish and to a lesser extent German, Norse and Danish.

Then at the very bottom of that, you have the Gaelic Irish- the ones who can trace their lineage back to about Roman times- no mean feat given the majority of our records were destroyed in 1922.

So, it is not a matter of where you are now- it is a matter of where you came from ;)

So, it is not a matter of where you are now- it is a matter of where you came from ;)
Indeed. You - not your parents, not your grandparents, and not your ancestors from the 18th century.

My ... DNA is relatively more homogenous, given that all my ancestors come from different parts of Germany. But given that inside Germany there are significant differences between places too, maybe it is a valid comparison.

My mother's side is from the East, from Eastern Prussia and what is today the Czech Republic (before it was Czech).
My father's side is from the West, the Ruhr and the Industrial Heartlands.

But I, I was born in Hamburg. I may only be one quarter Hamburgian, but nonetheless it is where I was born, where I spent my first 16 years, it is the place that defined me.
It would be dishonest to claim I was from anywhere else, both to others and to myself. And I think, as Cabra seemed to indicate, that many people (here in Aussieland, but also in other palces) use stories they might have heard sometimes to artificially declare themselves unique, for whatever reasons.

So to all those people claiming nationalities:
If you've never seen Ireland, you're not Irish. There is no genetic difference between an Irishmen and an American that would have any influence on your being whatsoever. (I bet you don't have red hair either... :D )
You're born and bred American, just like any other born and bred American. Sad perhaps, but true.

Indeed. You - not your parents, not your grandparents, and not your ancestors from the 18th century.

-snip-

I meant, not physically where one comes from! I meant what your parents, grandparents etc etc are/were are the keys that help make up your identity. Its your background, your upbringing and your outlook on life more so then where you actually were born. ;)

An attitude so to speak :p

My nationality is very undefined. For starters, my last grandparent died 3 weeks after I was born. My last relative to be born in another country died in 1980, a full 9 years bfore I was born (my mother's father). Both of my parents consider themselves American. Between them I get a very muddled mix of countries.

It's a little more complicated, but I'm basically the product of a Brooklyn Jewish girl and an Irish kid from the Jersey shore. So what the hell does that make me?

Damned if I know.

I meant what your parents, grandparents etc etc are/were are the keys that help make up your identity. Its your background, your upbringing and your outlook on life more so then where you actually were born.
But unless you are locked in your house, and only get to know your parents, you're bound to be assimilated by the people around you if you are young enough.
Take a German three-year old, and move his family to the States. Then go back in twenty years, and I'm telling you you'll be looking at an American, not a German.

But unless you are locked in your house, and only get to know your parents, you're bound to be assimilated by the people around you if you are young enough.
Take a German three-year old, and move his family to the States. Then go back in twenty years, and I'm telling you you'll be looking at an American, not a German.
Agreed.

:)