NationStates Jolt Archive

I made a list of Dutch political parties for another forum and figured, hey, what the heck I could make a poll in general. I know most of you here think political parties come only in two flavours ("Liberal" and "Conservative") but we have lots of parties over here in the Netherlands!

The poll options are kinda restricted, so I listed the 'main' parties. Vote to your hearts content. A somewhat more "unbiased" but IMO incomplete description of the main parties can be found here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_parties_of_the_Netherlands#Descriptions_of_some_of_the_parties)

From big to small:

[GOVT] Christian Democratic Appeal (Christian Democrat = conservativish, centre-right. Not very Christian, like power more than principles. Also oppose direct democracy and hold no appeal anymore. Sorta. Should really pick a different name, IMO. Prime Minister Harry Potter is one.)
Labour Party (Labour, like New Labour in Britain but without the opression. Want to have sex with the Christian Democratic Appeal.)
[GOVT] People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (right-wing classical liberals, that is to say mostly right-wing, has a conservative HURR HURR MORE ROADS LESS TAXES wing that I despise and an honestly classical liberal wing that is more or less palatable.)
Green Left (Greens, basically.)
Socialist Party (Ex-maoist socialists doing eerily well. *shudder*.)
List Pim Fortuyn (Far-right populists riding assasinated politician sympathy vote. Stand to dissapear next election.)
[GOVT] Democrats 66 (Democraten 66 - me, yay! Liberal Democrats, or social liberals if you will.)
Christian Union (Fundamentalist Christian party, likes Christian social thinking which attracts leftists not repulsed by the bible thumping.)
Political Reformed Party (Right-wing Christian Fundamentalist. Sees governments as the unconditional servants of God. 2 seats, so ignorable. )

de PvdA

Pym FOrtuyn is a mix, he's not just far right, he's also about smoking lots of pot and having a fuckload of analsex. He's a flavor unto himself.

Probably Green. I'd like more info if you have the time, Knoot, old chap.

Pym FOrtuyn is a mix, he's not just far right, he's also about smoking lots of pot and having a fuckload of analsex. He's a flavor unto himself.

That is what he did, personally. If you look at how his party functions now (his leaderless acolytes) it is mostly conservative. The anal sex and pot are being downplayed, and fear of foreigners is more prominent.

Werteswandel: info like what?

Ex Maoists? Ew.

I'd have to go Green, but as always, I only vote green because there is no alternative that is closer. (I did the same thing in our elections...)

Maybe Democrats 66? But then, they've formed a coalition with the right.

Nobody goes for CDA. :D

(gives his tree-hugging vote to the Greens)

Werteswandel: info like what?
Just a link to a basic party platform would be cool. Or brief details of their basic position on, say, civil liberties, economic policy and the EU.

No worries if you don't have the time; I'm at work, so I can't really go hunting myself...

Greens... :p

Ex Maoists? Ew.

I'd have to go Green, but as always, I only vote green because there is no alternative that is closer. (I did the same thing in our elections...)

Maybe Democrats 66? But then, they've formed a coalition with the right.

Hmm, what would your natural preference be then?

The thing is, D66 is not at all happy with this coalition because it is socially progressive (even for the Netherlands) and economically centrist/centre-left. The problem is that the negotiations between Labour and the Christian Democrats failed. (Christian Democrats had wanted a coalition with just them and the right-liberals but they failed to capture a majority.) They then had to get some other party to get a majorty. The options were: scary populist anti-foreigner party, Christian fundamentalist anti gay folk and... us.

D66 has direct democracy, so the party congress voted on the issue. I was there too and voted in favour of joining a centre-right coalition. The arguments were basically: we can make a difference in this coalition by making it 'less evil'. Some of the more evil budget cuts were scrapped, and more money went to education and the environment. There were also promises of more democratic reform (like electing our mayors)

Personally, I've been dissilusioned by the promises of the right and I voted against continuing the coalition last easter when Labour voted AGAINST the elected mayor after voting for it three times. At that point, I considered it pointless to continue. Still, a majority of my party disagreed so we're still in government. Yay.

Just a link to a basic party platform would be cool. Or brief details of their basic position on, say, civil liberties, economic policy and the EU.

No worries if you don't have the time; I'm at work, so I can't really go hunting myself...

For the greens:
wiki link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Left)

Civil liberties: for. pro-gay rights and pro-choice and all such things.
Economic policy: green... a bit muddly between socialism and left-liberalism with lots of trees.
EU: pretty europhile.

EDIT: Tho I suppose you want it for all the parties >_< I'll see into that when I have a bit more time... probably tonight.

Cheers, I think I've seen enough: they have my vote.

Hmm, what would your natural preference be then?

The thing is, D66 is not at all happy with this coalition because it is socially progressive (even for the Netherlands) and economically centrist/centre-left. The problem is that the negotiations between Labour and the Christian Democrats failed. (Christian Democrats had wanted a coalition with just them and the right-liberals but they failed to capture a majority.) They then had to get some other party to get a majorty. The options were: scary populist anti-foreigner party, Christian fundamentalist anti gay folk and... us.

D66 has direct democracy, so the party congress voted on the issue. I was there too and voted in favour of joining a centre-right coalition. The arguments were basically: we can make a difference in this coalition by making it 'less evil'. Some of the more evil budget cuts were scrapped, and more money went to education and the environment. There were also promises of more democratic reform (like electing our mayors)

Personally, I've been dissilusioned by the promises of the right and I voted against continuing the coalition last easter when Labour voted AGAINST the elected mayor after voting for it three times. At that point, I considered it pointless to continue. Still, a majority of my party disagreed so we're still in government. Yay.

Hmm. Well, lets see...my natural preference would be a trade union oriented socialist party, that advocates democratic worker's councils in the workplace...while maintaining a very strong socially libertarian stance. The ex-maoist thing makes me think the socialists aren't into either of those.

Then maybe take a look at their website. Knoots info is a very short summary of all parties and also maybe a tiny bit biased ;)

The Socialist Party: http://international.sp.nl/

Democrats 66: http://www.democrats.nl/


I unfortunately can't find an english party page from the labour party :(

People's Party for Freedom and Democracy: http://www.vvd.nl/index2.asp?ItemCode=ENG

And after I visited the page from the "People's Party for Freedom and Democracy" the labour party website as a whole is suddenly unreachable :D

I also can't find an english page for the Christian Democratic Appeal :(

And I didn't bother with looking for the other parties.

Hmm. Well, lets see...my natural preference would be a trade union oriented socialist party, that advocates democratic worker's councils in the workplace...while maintaining a very strong socially libertarian stance. The ex-maoist thing makes me think the socialists aren't into either of those.

Well, I am not very well-versed in the different shades of red, I must admit. I do hope you understand.

This is what they say themselves about their own history. (http://international.sp.nl/history.stm) So you might want to read that instead.

Because of their worker-based attitude they are not really "new left" in the sense of having a strong libertarian tradition. Not to say that they are socially conservative but these issues do not matter so greatly to them. For example they voted against the elected mayor (think it should be appointed by the municipal council), and I have never heard them about worker councils. They are very much on the hand of the unions, though, and want to nationalise industries.

For social libertarianism, D66 would be the ideal choice (but it is economically liberal) so you might be better off with Green Left if you are a bit more intellectual. However, SP might be better for you anyhow if you value the unionism idea a lot.

With regards to trade unions... we have a pillarised system so the two main groups are a very moderate Christian Democrat trade union, a mainstream social democrat trade union and a radical one with the metalworkers etc in it. The SP would tend to go with the more radical union demands in any conflict.

Then maybe take a look at their website. Knoots info is a very short summary of all parties and also maybe a tiny bit biased ;)

The Socialist Party: http://international.sp.nl/

Democrats 66: http://www.democrats.nl/


I unfortunately can't find an english party page from the labour party :(

People's Party for Freedom and Democracy: http://www.vvd.nl/index2.asp?ItemCode=ENG

And after I visited the page from the "People's Party for Freedom and Democracy" the labour party website as a whole is suddenly unreachable :D

I also can't find an english page for the Christian Democratic Appeal :(

And I didn't bother with looking for the other parties.

Lies. There is no bias at all! I am offended, Sir, that you would dare suggest such a thing!

Anyway, websites suck because they are not really comparative. And the Political Rformed Party website is not online on Sundays. (They take it offline on the day of the lord. I shit you not.)

Hence the wiki link. Better links will be appreciated though.

A good wiki-link for a bit more information about the various parties...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_parties_of_the_Netherlands

I went with the VVD myself, although it was a toss up between them and the CDA.

Interesting poll. :)

The VVD's Statement of Principles (http://www.vvd.nl/index2.asp?ParentItemID=0&ItemID=37&SelectedItemID=297) sounds good to me.

I miss Geert Wilders.

What, no Myrth option? Then I can't choose anything.

Well, I am not very well-versed in the different shades of red, I must admit. I do hope you understand.

This is what they say themselves about their own history. (http://international.sp.nl/history.stm) So you might want to read that instead.

Thanks. :)

Because of their worker-based attitude they are not really "new left" in the sense of having a strong libertarian tradition. Not to say that they are socially conservative but these issues do not matter so greatly to them. For example they voted against the elected mayor (think it should be appointed by the municipal council), and I have never heard them about worker councils.

Yeah, figured. The idea of worker's councils is only just starting to come back into fashion (and then, not really). We'll see if they change heart in the next few years.

They are very much on the hand of the unions, though, and want to nationalise industries.

Ehh. I'm a bottom-up socialist, I don't believe in the government nationalising things before the workers themselves have control over it. (hence the council thing)

For social libertarianism, D66 would be the ideal choice (but it is economically liberal) so you might be better off with Green Left if you are a bit more intellectual. However, SP might be better for you anyhow if you value the unionism idea a lot.

The social libertarianism isn't that big an issue really - Holland is miles in front of Australia in that aspect. (at least, that's how it looks on the outside) I'd probably be more or less happy with the status quo.

With regards to trade unions... we have a pillarised system so the two main groups are a very moderate Christian Democrat trade union, a mainstream social democrat trade union and a radical one with the metalworkers etc in it. The SP would tend to go with the more radical union demands in any conflict.

Haha...sounds familiar- our structure is similar.

We have quite a few big corporate-sponsored unions, that do nothing...

A couple of "mild" unions that will take a stance but back down when there could be trouble...

And a bunch of radical ones that the corporations and government really hate, because they're actually a pain. The chief builder's union here refused to build the state parliament building when it was a month from completion, unless the government instituted a national 8 hour work day. The government refused, so they walked off the job, and left them to their shiny new parliament house...without a roof.

And we now have an 8 hour workday - and the union got a special statue noting their achievement thrown in as part of the bargain to add insult to injury. That was 100 years ago, but they haven't quit- they still pull off stuff like that, but they've grown weaker in recent years.

So yeah, the "radical" unions are the ones for me.

I probably would vote SP; with reservations. A green vote is probably just as close to my beliefs overall.

Interesting poll. :)

The VVD's Statement of Principles (http://www.vvd.nl/index2.asp?ParentItemID=0&ItemID=37&SelectedItemID=297) sounds good to me.

Yes. It is a good story. I'll readily admit that the VVD has some good philosophers. The problem, however, is that they do so poorly translate their ideals into action.

The "liberal" VVD is anti-immigration and for deporting 26.000 asylumseekers who have been here for over seven years to questionable countries (Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan,) which their minister deemed 'safe'. Even deportations to Zimbabwe are not shunned.

The "liberal" VVD thinks that it is vitally important that the government subsidises the owners of big houses by paying for their mortage interest.

The "liberal" VVD feels that certain internet sites oughta be blocked.

The VVD claims liberal progressives from the 19th century who would not vote for the VVD at all if they were alive today, because they are for a large part a conservative movement. Progressive liberals vote D66.

Knoot is using his powers of sexual persuasion to make me vote for his party. Just so you all know, I don't agree with them. I do it for sex! 66 = 69 for me.

There. I'd rather be known as a common whore than a political one.

I miss Geert Wilders.

Cannot include every single one man right-wing populist who is giving it a shot nowadays. Wilders gets more media coverage, but he is none more deserving of that one final place than Nawijn, Peter R de Vries, or the Party for the Animals. Lets talk serious political movements here.

Knoot is using his powers of sexual persuasion to make me vote for his party. Just so you all know, I don't agree with them. I do it for sex! Six = sex.

There. I'd rather be known as a common whore than a political whore.

Hmmm.... a vote AND sex. I like this arrangement. ^_^

*plays around with the brain probe*

*plays around with the brain probe*

My brain's not down there!

My brain's not down there!

You have the medical expertise though. Hmmm maybe if you insert it here and then it can deploy.... [CENSORED FOR THE CHILDREN]

Ahem. We now resume our regular political discussion. Oh, lookee. More votes for D66!

It is interesting to note,
The christian groups are not getting any votes,
nor The calvinists as well, but sure, we're all going to hell!
As I cast my vote for Knoot,
I admit i did so as a hoot,
the whole thing stinks of farse,
And i admit... I simply am not arsed!

Thank you! ... VL, A Very Irish Poet. :D

SP for me. I've been a member since my sixteenth :D

Knoot does not rhyme with hoot >_<

Oneiro: you one of those wearing the tomato suits?

I have a 'Vote Rood' shirt, if that's what you mean...

The VVD claims liberal progressives from the 19th century who would not vote for the VVD at all if they were alive today, because they are for a large part a conservative movement. Progressive liberals vote D66.
In this government, a vote for D'66 is practically a vote for the VVD in any case. Most of the D'66 reform plans have been shot down by the VVD (and possibly the CDA as well), but they're hanging in there because there's still so much they can do and so many agenda points of theirs that did make it (like their pride and joy, the elected mayor... oh, wait).

D'66, wake up already!



Thus spoke the Groen Links voter.

Yes. It is a good story. I'll readily admit that the VVD has some good philosophers. The problem, however, is that they do so poorly translate their ideals into action.

The "liberal" VVD is anti-immigration and for deporting 26.000 asylumseekers who have been here for over seven years to questionable countries (Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan,) which their minister deemed 'safe'. Even deportations to Zimbabwe are not shunned.

The "liberal" VVD thinks that it is vitally important that the government subsidises the owners of big houses by paying for their mortage interest.

The "liberal" VVD feels that certain internet sites oughta be blocked.

The VVD claims liberal progressives from the 19th century who would not vote for the VVD at all if they were alive today, because they are for a large part a conservative movement. Progressive liberals vote D66.

Yes, you just pointed out my major problems with the VVD, thank you. Remind me of them in february, because I have a couple of roommates to convert in march(municapality elections) to D66 ;)

In this government, a vote for D'66 is practically a vote for the VVD in any case. Most of the D'66 reform plans have been shot down by the VVD (and possibly the CDA as well), but they're hanging in there because there's still so much they can do and so many agenda points of theirs that did make it (like their pride and joy, the elected mayor... oh, wait).

D'66, wake up already!



Thus spoke the Groen Links voter.

You conveniently forget that the elected mayor was shot down by Labour and Green Left in the Senate. You cannot hold the coalition parties responsible for the fact that Labour votes against a proposal which was proposed by a Labour minister and voted in favour of by Labour three times previously. If anything, it has shown that Labour are treasonous pig-dogs, and rewarding them with new elections would not be fair.

Green Left can just sit there and look pretty in the opposition, but what has Green Left accomplished for the environment these four years? And has Green Left done anything to soften the worst cabinet proposals? Nope. For a small party, D66 has had a lot of influence.

Think about the alternative too. Had D66 refused there would have been another government with the LPF or, worse, with CU/SGP. I'm sure your green sensibilities would have been offended a little more by that government!

Yes, you just pointed out my major problems with the VVD, thank you. Remind me of them in february, because I have a couple of roommates to convert in march(municapality elections) to D66 ;)

Har. I should go out and campaign myself as well. Its kinda hopeless though, where I live. *sigh*

Yes. It is a good story. I'll readily admit that the VVD has some good philosophers. The problem, however, is that they do so poorly translate their ideals into action.

The "liberal" VVD is anti-immigration and for deporting 26.000 asylumseekers who have been here for over seven years to questionable countries (Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan,) which their minister deemed 'safe'. Even deportations to Zimbabwe are not shunned.

The "liberal" VVD thinks that it is vitally important that the government subsidises the owners of big houses by paying for their mortage interest.

The "liberal" VVD feels that certain internet sites oughta be blocked.

The VVD claims liberal progressives from the 19th century who would not vote for the VVD at all if they were alive today, because they are for a large part a conservative movement. Progressive liberals vote D66.

I went and had a look at the D66 link above. Some interesting stuff.

Think about the alternative too. Had D66 refused there would have been another government with the LPF or, worse, with CU/SGP. I'm sure your green sensibilities would have been offended a little more by that government!
There has been a government with the LPF. It fell in two weeks.

A new coalition involving the LPF wouldn't last particularly long either, I'm suspecting.

Also, VVD hooking up with the CU/SGP? That would only prove that their so-called ideology is meaningless and power is all they're after. And these are the guys you're working with!?

I weep for D'"I promise the voters we won't form a coalition with the VVD"66.

There has been a government with the LPF. It fell in two weeks.

A new coalition involving the LPF wouldn't last particularly long either, I'm suspecting.

Also, VVD hooking up with the CU/SGP? That would only prove that their so-called ideology is meaningless and power is all they're after. And these are the guys you're working with!?

I weep for D'"I promise the voters we won't form a coalition with the VVD"66.

The thing is, the LPF has done and would continue to do a lot of damage to the country. You say it does not last, but it has pretty much lasted in the opposition ever since the fall-out in a more or less stable fashion. And nothing stopped CDA/VVD from trying it. CU/SGP was seriously considered. Yes, the VVD doing that would prove that they are power-hungry bastards but they could do it nonetheless and have a terrible, terrible government. Facts are facts, it would be worse for the country. I think we can both agree with that.

You should check with your Labour friends, the ones that do not want a coalition with Green Left either but instead want to have sex with the CDA after the upcoming elections. Nice left-wing promise you've got there: vote for us, you'll have a marginally larger but ignored opposition! The only viable way for the Greens to get into government would be a purple/green alternative. That, however, would require you to work with VVD'66. ;)

Bump, I suppose.

I would be very much in favour of a coalition of GreenLeft and D66 :)

Unfortunately that won't work... ever.

Agreed, that would be nice. Labour/Greens/D66 though, perhaps ;)

Labour-SP-GreenLeft is at 78 seats in the latest polls... If only that could become reality...

Had Pim been allowed to live, Holland might have had a chance to undermine and disintegrate that vile Amsterdam Treaty from within and re-establish independent Low Countries.

So who profits from his death -- pro-EU shitheads...

Ergo, who's to blame for his death, a deranged so-called murderer or the aforemenetioned shitheads?

Labour-SP-GreenLeft is at 78 seats in the latest polls... If only that could become reality...
SP is waaay too radical to be allowed into government. They have no regard whatsoever for international treaties or the economy or the interests of normal, middle class people, or the national debt. It would either be a disaster, or SP would have to compromise pretty much its entire platform.

Had Pim been allowed to live, Holland might have had a chance to undermine and disintegrate that vile Amsterdam Treaty from within and re-establish independent Low Countries.

So who profits from his death -- pro-EU shitheads...

Ergo, who's to blame for his death, a deranged so-called murderer or the aforemenetioned shitheads?

Your faulty logic makes the baby Jesus cry.

Puppet bump!