NationStates Jolt Archive

Woo!

At the risk of starting another evolution/ID thread...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/05/creation_evolution/

Woo! Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn, again reaffirming that the catholic church thinks that creationism and evolution can both exist. Pointing out, again, that evolution does not say where life comes from.

Especially not where he says that it's "reasonable to assume some sense or design" (i.e. intelligent design) - but that the scientific method demands restrictions that shut out the question. (i.e. ID might be true or not, but it's not scientific)

Apologies, since I know the debate has come up a lot on here, apologies if this link or something similar has already been posted.

As I've said before: why can't we believe in god (if we're christian or other relition) and still scientifically study evolution? And why can't we believe in evolution and still religiously study creationism?

Fun for all! Let's just get along together. It's nice to be nice.

p.s. this is my first OP! Woo!

"A cardinal agrees with me"

Birds can talk??? ;)

Déjà vu par ici.

I don’t need some guy who claims to be closer to God than the rest of us to reaffirm what I already believe.

"A cardinal agrees with me"

Birds can talk??? ;)

Well...

http://hometown.aol.com/mrjmtchr/myhomepage/parrot%20pic.jpg

"A cardinal agrees with me"

Birds can talk??? ;)

Heya :)

There's a bird called a cardinal? I didn't know that.
*does google image search*

http://www.myfavoritethings.tv/gifts/graphics/furniture/breezy_singers/red%20cardinal%20bird.jpg

They're pretty, too!

I'm an Aussie, could explain why I never knew of them.

Well...

http://hometown.aol.com/mrjmtchr/myhomepage/parrot%20pic.jpg
Only if they have someone intelligent to teach them to talk. :p

Heya :)

There's a bird called a cardinal? I didn't know that.
*does google image search*

http://www.myfavoritethings.tv/gifts/graphics/furniture/breezy_singers/red%20cardinal%20bird.jpg

They're pretty, too!

I'm an Aussie, could explain why I never knew of them.
The Cardinal is the North Carolina State Bird. Bet you didn't know that either, did ya? Huh? Huh? Huh? :D

Well...

http://hometown.aol.com/mrjmtchr/myhomepage/parrot%20pic.jpg

Ooooh, can't remember the specifics, but there was an island in the middle of nowhere that was found with parrots that spoke english.
Kinda rough, sailor slang english, and barely understandable.

Researchers found out that three parrot-generations ago there was a shipwreck which must have happened on that island, the birds learnt english from the sailors, and passed it down to their childrens children.

That must have just been so surreal... "no european has set foot on this island before....why are those birds talking?"

Ooooh, can't remember the specifics, but there was an island in the middle of nowhere that was found with parrots that spoke english.
Kinda rough, sailor slang english, and barely understandable.

Researchers found out that three parrot-generations ago there was a shipwreck which must have happened on that island, the birds learnt english from the sailors, and passed it down to their childrens children.

That must have just been so surreal... "no european has set foot on this island before....why are those birds talking?"
If you really want to be amazed by parrots, look up Alex the grey parrot.

Only if they have someone intelligent to teach them to talk. :p

Hey, same with humans.

And pirates are intelligent! Arr, ready to sail, ready to sail!

The Cardinal is the North Carolina State Bird. Bet you didn't know that either, did ya? Huh? Huh? Huh? :D

Yeah? well...uh....the swan is the western australian state bird.
I have no idea what the NSW state bird is...aha! Kookaburra. And the platypus is our state animal.
Despite our crest having a kangaroo and emu (or kangaroo and lion for the parliament) - go figure. I think we're just trying to sneak as many animals into crests and flags as possible.
Since every coin of ours has a picture of an animal on it, that theory seems to be holding so far...

... think we're just trying to sneak as many animals into crests and flags as possible.
Since every coin of ours has a picture of an animal on it, that theory seems to be holding so far...


"The Blue Groper was proclaimed the State fish of New South Wales in 2002."

OK, this is just getting stupid...

Yeah? well...uh....the swan is the western australian state bird.
I have no idea what the NSW state bird is...aha! Kookaburra. And the platypus is our state animal.
Despite our crest having a kangaroo and emu (or kangaroo and lion for the parliament) - go figure. I think we're just trying to sneak as many animals into crests and flags as possible.
Since every coin of ours has a picture of an animal on it, that theory seems to be holding so far...
Kewl! That must be a terrific tourist attraction, eh? :rolleyes:

Yeah? well...uh....the swan is the western australian state bird.
I have no idea what the NSW state bird is...aha! Kookaburra. And the platypus is our state animal.
Despite our crest having a kangaroo and emu (or kangaroo and lion for the parliament) - go figure. I think we're just trying to sneak as many animals into crests and flags as possible.
Since every coin of ours has a picture of an animal on it, that theory seems to be holding so far...
Canada does the same thing. Their coins have beavers on them, don’t they?

Canada does the same thing. Their coins have beavers on them, don’t they?

How inappropriate!
Oh, wait, is a beaver an animal, too?

"A cardinal agrees with me"

Birds can talk??? ;)


Why not? Loons talk all the time.

Canada does the same thing. Their coins have beavers on them, don’t they?


Actually I think Canadian coins have either a moose or an elk.

If you really want to be amazed by parrots, look up Alex the grey parrot.

That is so cool!
It's nothing that I haven't already suspected for years (I knew a parrot that would ask for things... polly want a ball. polly want a cracker, and mean what he said - although he could have just learnt the phrase gets him a cracker/ball). The tests seem to be very well designed to show understanding and not just memorizing.

I've actually done some research on this, just with AI instead of parrots, I think there's a lot of overlap, as the biggest problems are our human expectations, and coming up with fair tests that actually show what we want. You can say to an AI/parrot "hey, what's the capital of America" all you like, it's failure to answer doesn't mean it doesn't understand speech. Or if it answers, that might be just because it's learnt that the answer to any question with the word "America" is "Washington D.C." (I did get your capital right, I hope!)

I'm convinced that even if we wrote an intelligent, self-aware computer AI, the most likely response will be for it to just sit there and appear entirely un-intelligent. Why should it do anything different, since it'd have no desires. No drive to preserve it's sentience, to display its intelligence, or to do anything productive.

I'm convinced that even if we wrote an intelligent, self-aware computer AI, the most likely response will be for it to just sit there and appear entirely un-intelligent. Why should it do anything different, since it'd have no desires. No drive to preserve it's sentience, to display its intelligence, or to do anything productive.
That’s actually very deep. Hadn’t ever considered that. Thanks for more irrelevant stuff to talk people’s ears off about.

I'll see your cardinal and raise you two starlings and chickadee!

(Seriously, your point is well taken. Most mainstream Christian churches see no conflict with evolution. In the main anti-creationism in schools cases, almost every manjor Christian denomination was on the anti-creationism side of the case.)

(Seriously, your point is well taken. Most mainstream Christian churches see no conflict with evolution. In the main anti-creationism in schools cases, almost every manjor Christian denomination was on the anti-creationism side of the case.)
Apostates! Back-slidders! Heatherns! :eek:

That’s actually very deep. Hadn’t ever considered that. Thanks for more irrelevant stuff to talk people’s ears off about.

Irrelevant is my specialty!

If you really want to talk their ears off about irrelevant things, discuss whether a self-aware AI should have rights, and whether it's ethically correct to program it to not mind if it doesn't have rights.

Want a news article about a bomb disposal robot who searched a guys mouth?
http://www.boingboing.net/2005/10/04/robot_inspects_bank_.html

Wow, it's almost like it's been the policy of the Catholic Church for decades now to support evolution... OH WAIT IT IS!

So any guesses on how long it will be before someone comes in screaming "ALL YOU [CREATIONISTS/EVOLUTIONISTS] NEED TO WISE UP AND REALIZE THAT BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!" and proceeds to tell everyone how wrong they are for not agreeing with them? I hear the office pool is up to $200 (US).

Evolution and Creationism can co-exist, but shouldn't in a classroom. It's nice to see the church conceding a little, I guess that's a sign of progress.

Evolution and Creationism can co-exist, but shouldn't in a classroom. It's nice to see the church conceding a little, I guess that's a sign of progress.

Actually the church conceded this a long time ago. I was just posting because of the recent article that mentions the comment reaffirming the stance, considering how often I see this discussion come up. (wow, that's a terrible run-on sentence!)

I agree that it shouldn't be taught in a science classroom, and I like the fact that, although he didn't say this, the cardinal did effectively mention that ID is not a scientific belief.

I find it kind of silly that this debate still happens considering I was taught evolution by a christian scientist, and he never had any problem with the two co-existing :)

I find it very cool that, despite the office pool, nobody's yet come in shouting and screaming, and that the "I believe this, but you can believe that" votes are well in the majority.

when evolution was first accepted the christian church released
a book called "Evolution in the church" it tells about how in the start of the bible humans seem more barbaric and god more vengeful then how at the end god seems allot more caring and people seem to be slightly less barbaric

when evolution was first accepted the christian church released
a book called "Evolution in the church" it tells about how in the start of the bible humans seem more barbaric and god more vengeful then how at the end god seems allot more caring and people seem to be slightly less barbaric

Really? I never heard of that.
Although, if they think that God is evolving, I think they missed the point. Unless we've had lots of gods in between.

Really? I never heard of that.
Although, if they think that God is evolving, I think they missed the point. Unless we've had lots of gods in between.
Ah yes, because an all poweful God would lack the free will and power to change?

Ah yes, because an all poweful God would lack the free will and power to change?

No. Because on specific individual changing on their own is not part of evolution. That would be lamarkian evolution, which nobody believes is a very good model (although there are lamarkian aspects in current evolutionary theory)

For god to change due to evolution he'd have to create copies of him, that have differences, but share traits in common, then the best suited copies would need the opportunity to create copies of themselves at a higher rate than the less-well suited copies, so that over "generations" of god-copies the desirable traits that make the copies of God more likely to create a new copy of itself become more pronounced.

I have the free will and power to change. I'm always learning more about programming. This, however, does not mean I am evolving.
Perhaps if my programming abilities help me have children (chicks dig geeks!) then the aspects of my genetic makeup that cause me to be a good programmer are more likely to get passed on, if other non-programmers have a harder time having children.

However, just the fact that I'm changing when I learn more about programming does not mean I am evolving.