NationStates Jolt Archive

A few questions to all my brothers and sisters in Christ;

Where have we went wrong? How did we let the world get so bad? Why have we let the church become part intertwined witht the flesh? We need to figure out soon and revive the church in the name Of the Lord our Saviour :)

How would you go about reviving it?

And how exactly is the world "so bad" at the current time? I'd say it's a hell out of a lot better than it has been in previous centuries.

How is the world better than previous times? We have more death and disease, poverty, famine and etc... There are people who are open satanists.
and so forth. Now i am not perfect by anymeans. But there needs to be change in the church get the flesh out and let the spirit in to its wonders.


We would revive the church like a gardener does with a garden. When there are weeds that choke out the life supple we must pluck them. We must water the plants and let the Son shine down to help it grow into something full of fruit(not gay fruit either, biblical refrence).

I don't know what happened but I think our biggest problem is we have forgotten Mathew 22:34-40.

"Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisses got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?' Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and the greatest comandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and Prophets hang on these two commandments."
~New International Version

Well, at least that's the biggest problem I see in the forums

A few questions to all my brothers and sisters in Christ;

Where have we went wrong? How did we let the world get so bad? Why have we let the church become part intertwined witht the flesh? We need to figure out soon and revive the church in the name Of the Lord our Saviour :)

Petty squabbling and hypocrisy are major factors, I would say. We need to reorient to Christ's most vital message of love and humility, while somehow keeping fervent faith and fearlessness against the world's evils.

Is that vague enough for you? :rolleyes: But anyway, I think it's something along those lines.

Not imposing faith on others would do wonders for reviving the role of the Church as spiritual council rather than political pawn.


FYI, I'm Jewish.

How is the world better than previous times? We have more death and disease, poverty, famine and etc... There are people who are open satanists.
and so forth. Now i am not perfect by anymeans. But there needs to be change in the church get the flesh out and let the spirit in to its wonders.

Do you really think things were better 2000 or 1000 years ago? There is much less disease, wars, murder, etc. now than then. And there are things that were unheard of back then: women and children's rights, equality, labor laws, etc. Sure, there are other problems and more people suffer, but the population is much higher now and bad news are delivered almost instantly now.

I think a start would be to somehow apologize for the hatred we have shown others in the name of Christ. We are to love the sinner and hate the sin (sorry if that sounds too cliche). I think one issue the church is particularly bad on is homosexuality. We have the liberal churches saying we need to love them and therefore we need to accept the practice of homosexuality as okay. The conservative churches seem to teach we need to condemn homosexuality and hate the homosexuals. They are both wrong. We need to love them while still teaching that such relations between the same gender is wrong. I don't see why we have so much difficulty loving them. We don't seem to have the same difficulty loving those who have sinned in other ways. Such as having premarital sex. Or for that matter just looking at someone lustfully. Why has this group of people been singled out for such scorn?

How is the world better than previous times? We have more death and disease, poverty, famine and etc... There are people who are open satanists.
and so forth. Now i am not perfect by anymeans. But there needs to be change in the church get the flesh out and let the spirit in to its wonders.


We would revive the church like a gardener does with a garden. When there are weeds that choke out the life supple we must pluck them. We must water the plants and let the Son shine down to help it grow into something full of fruit(not gay fruit either, biblical refrence).

"There are people who are open satanists." This right there, RIGHT THERE is why the world has gotten worse. There is still ignorant morons like you. WOOOOOOOO! THE SATANISTS ARE OUT IN THE OPEN! Get with it bud, and drop the evangelical crap.

Anyways, stupidity aside, the world has not gotten worse. I was raised Catholic and if you ask me, the world couldn't be better. We are cultural, scientifically and technologically at our zenith; only getting better too. People are becoming less and less ignorant. Racism is CONSIDERABLY reduced.

Disease you say is an ever greater problem? I suppose the advent of antibiotics and modern medicine hasn't helped one bit. :rolleyes:

As for poverty, give it a few decades. The world will be full of Americas and Canadas and all the likes.

And famine? Again, technology will provide the solution to this problem, if it hasn't already.

"There are people who are open satanists." This right there, RIGHT THERE is why the world has gotten worse. There is still ignorant morons like you. WOOOOOOOO! THE SATANISTS ARE OUT IN THE OPEN! Get with it bud, and drop the evangelical crap.
Step back, buddy. He who carries the most sins casts the first stone.

Although I do agree with you in spirit, if not with your rhetoric and grammatical innaccuraccies. The manifestation of Satanism isn't a bad thing. It's just kinda silly.

Step back, buddy. He who carries the most sins casts the first stone.

Although I do agree with you in spirit, if not with your rhetoric and grammatical innaccuraccies. The manifestation of Satanism isn't a bad thing. It's just kinda silly.

Indeed, perhaps I was heated in my...rhetoric. I usually try to keep myself a bit more level-headed than that. But I passionately hate it when people make statements like that, of ANY religion. Also, I guess it also depends on the Satanism he means. If he means the cultists, then yea they're weird. If he means the Church of Satan, then he should brush up on they're beliefs. The "Satan" in there is just for shock value.

How is the world better than previous times? We have more death and disease, poverty, famine and etc... There are people who are open satanists.
and so forth. Now i am not perfect by anymeans. But there needs to be change in the church get the flesh out and let the spirit in to its wonders.


We would revive the church like a gardener does with a garden. When there are weeds that choke out the life supple we must pluck them. We must water the plants and let the Son shine down to help it grow into something full of fruit(not gay fruit either, biblical refrence).

I know why!!!!! It's cuz all you stupid christians just "Pray to God"

Put your head back up your ass buddy.

We have more death and disease, poverty, famine and etc...
Um...OK. I thought that modern medicine prevents, helps, and cures many previously non-treatable diseases and disorders, that technology is making food and living supplies much more readily available to the general population of a number of developed countries, there are more democratic nations in the world than ever before when just a few centuries ago the majority of countries were run by corrupt monarchs, that there are many groups working to assist in those trapped in poverty and squalid conditions, etc.

You can have your opinions of the low morality of the times, but on a secular level, the world is better than before and your examples did nothing to disprove that.

A few questions to all my brothers and sisters in Christ;

Where have we went wrong? How did we let the world get so bad? Why have we let the church become part intertwined witht the flesh? We need to figure out soon and revive the church in the name Of the Lord our Saviour :)

Well, for starters, you went wrong by persecuting certain "undesireable" groups. Instead of worrying about yourselves, you decided, instead, to worry about the speck in our eye, and ignore the plank in your own eye.

Why don't you worry about yourselves, and quit trying to oppress gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people...and while you're at it...how about Y'ALL GET THE FUCK OUT OF POLITICS?? That or pay your fuckin' admission price like everyone else! I say any church with involvement or influence in politics needs to lose their tax exemption!

"Low morality" is a matter of perspective. To some, times could not be morally better. To others, we may be in a time of heretics and whores.

:headbang: I'm sick of Christians and thier Jesus. When will they learn it's all a big fairy tool that started out as a political weapon. Plus, look atit this way. Do you believe in Fairies, or dragons? God is just as ridiculous. Christianity is the cause for alot of problems also. The crusades, slavery, both in the name of god. Christianity is a stupid, arrogant set of Ideals......


Christianity= :sniper:

From my understanding, most Satanists don't actually believe in Satan but pick that religion to mock and upset Christians and/or engage in "fun" activities (not saying this is true for all).

I'm not sure this says anything bad about Christians or the world. Though we need to look at why certain groups want to mock and upset Christians. Do they just think our beliefs are silly, or has our hatred and hypocricy caused them to dislike us.

Anyway I keep posting because I really would be interested to see what suggestions people have.

As a side note I don't think the world is any worse then it was before, but I don't think it is better either. It's just different. There is plenty of room for improvement. Before Christians can hope to change the world they need to fix their own problems.

Um...OK. I thought that modern medicine prevents, helps, and cures many previously non-treatable diseases and disorders, that technology is making food and living supplies much more readily available to the general population of a number of developed countries, there are more democratic nations in the world than ever before when just a few centuries ago the majority of countries were run by corrupt monarchs, that there are many groups working to assist in those trapped in poverty and squalid conditions, etc.

You can have your opinions of the low morality of the times, but on a secular level, the world is better than before and your examples did nothing to disprove that.

Not only that but we have overcome periods of time where Christians were openly persecuted, tortured, and killed. Sometimes this was even done as a public spectacle. Things are definitely not worse

Intresting on how this was for christians only. Yet we have everyone throw their own crap in from the peanut gallery..Oh well.

Umm..I'd love to..but it's immpossible.

Why you ask? The 7 churches.

What does this have to do with anything? Everything

The seven churches is more acurately portrayed as 7 TIME PERIODS, the one right before his (Jesus) return is said to be corrupt and immoral, and those who stay true to his name will be raptured, thus, leaving the earth to the anti christ who will preach that we are Gods of Flesh leaving the world into a literal "Hell on Earth".

How is the world better than previous times? We have more death and disease, poverty, famine and etc... There are people who are open satanists.
and so forth.
Well if you went by sheer numbers you would indeed be correct. As the population goes up so does the number of people suffering from these problems. However, when you look at the percentage of the world population suffering these problems there is a dramatic decline in numbers especially within the last 200 years, and probably within the last century.

As for Satanist, if we discount Levainin Satanists who don't believe, much less worship, in Satan, or any deity for that matter, by strictest definition of many church doctrines, any deity not of the Christian (maybe Jewish as well) religions is really Satan in disguise. Heck for that matter, there are Christian sects out there that say if you're not worshiping their perticular version of God then it is actually Satan you are worshiping.

And you wonder why religion is on the decline.

Ironically it seems that spirituality is on the increase

From my understanding, most Satanists don't actually believe in Satan but pick that religion to mock and upset Christians and/or engage in "fun" activities (not saying this is true for all).

I'm not sure this says anything bad about Christians or the world. Though we need to look at why certain groups want to mock and upset Christians. Do they just think our beliefs are silly, or has our hatred and hypocricy caused them to dislike us.

Anyway I keep posting because I really would be interested to see what suggestions people have.

As a side note I don't think the world is any worse then it was before, but I don't think it is better either. It's just different. There is plenty of room for improvement. Before Christians can hope to change the world they need to fix their own problems.


Well i wasn't directly refering to the group of satanists..they use the name mockingly...But i was talking about people that actually openly worship Satan..not just in name. I think things are better in some ways, but worse in most other ways. I mean yes we have cured older diseases, but what about the ones we never will cure? what about terrorism? constant warfare..most wars fought now than ever before. If only people could see it from the perspective froma devout christian, not just one that claims the name, but one that walks the walk.

Not only that but we have overcome periods of time where Christians were openly persecuted, tortured, and killed. Sometimes this was even done as a public spectacle. Things are definitely not worse


Oh, you poor christian. are you so blind as not to see that Christians have persecuted more people than any other religion? Justinian for example. You not christian? You'r dead. Hitler? Kill the Jews. The whole fucking crusades? Kill all non-christians. Plus- they were so freaking stupid the Catholics were killing Eastern Orthodoxy.

What pope Leo did to the world:

:rolleyes: :sniper:
The world Christians

They cause more harm than good.

Umm..I'd love to..but it's immpossible.

Why you ask? The 7 churches.

What does this have to do with anything? Everything

The seven churches is more acurately portrayed as 7 TIME PERIODS, the one right before his (Jesus) return is said to be corrupt and immoral, and those who stay true to his name will be raptured, thus, leaving the earth to the anti christ who will preach that we are Gods of Flesh leaving the world into a literal "Hell on Earth".


Thats my deepest fear..Thats why I wanted a revival in the church. To prolong it..But i guess thats trying to be God somehow..Oh well some person will look at our posts and laugh at the end time talk..but its true though..maybe i should start a thread up on that/

Lee Harvey Oswald- Pagan

9/11 bombings- Islam

England Bombings- Islam

Oklohoma City- Satanist

Columbine- Pagan/ Satanist

and the list goes on and on....you overlook lots of things...

Spirituality and religion aren't one in the same. ;)

Lee Harvey Oswald- Pagan

9/11 bombings- Islam

England Bombings- Islam

Oklohoma City- Satanist

Columbine- Pagan/ Satanist

and the list goes on and on....you overlook lots of things...

But christianity is worse:

Crusades: Christian

Fall of the Roman Empire: Christian

Slavery: Christian (hard slavery- to black people)

Indian wars: Christian

The banning of Europeans from the Asian nations: Christians

The fucking Holocaust: You guessed it..... Christians



And the luck winner for most extreme assholes as a group is...............


OMG!!!!! Christians.

There is NO god.

Well i wasn't directly refering to the group of satanists..they use the name mockingly...But i was talking about people that actually openly worship Satan..not just in name. I think things are better in some ways, but worse in most other ways. I mean yes we have cured older diseases, but what about the ones we never will cure? what about terrorism? constant warfare..most wars fought now than ever before. If only people could see it from the perspective froma devout christian, not just one that claims the name, but one that walks the walk.

I still think such people as true satanist have allways been around. There is a gnostic book that tells the creation story but has the snake as the hero and God as evil, so this type of thinking must have been around for a while. I don't know what diesease you think will never be cured. Just because we don't have a cure at the moment doesn't mean we never will have one. I'm sure people at one point thought Polio would never be stoped. A somewhat radical Christian once told me HIV was God's punishment and would never be cured. I felt insulted because I was working on an HIV therapy at the time. Warfare has always existed and been pretty bad. Just take some time and read the Old Testament a little.

But alas, I think we are getting side tracked. We should focus on solutions to the problems instead of arguing over how bad the problems are.

Lee Harvey Oswald- Pagan

9/11 bombings- Islam

England Bombings- Islam

Oklohoma City- Satanist

Columbine- Pagan/ Satanist

and the list goes on and on....you overlook lots of things...

Spanish Conquistadors- Catholic

Queen "Bloody" Mary of England, burned Protestants- Catholic

Killed Native Americans and tried to destroy their culture- Christianity

Crusaders- Catholic

Salem Witch Trials- Puritans

And the list goes on and on. You overlook lots of things...

Well i wasn't directly refering to the group of satanists..they use the name mockingly...But i was talking about people that actually openly worship Satan..not just in name. I think things are better in some ways, but worse in most other ways. I mean yes we have cured older diseases, but what about the ones we never will cure? what about terrorism? constant warfare..most wars fought now than ever before. If only people could see it from the perspective froma devout christian, not just one that claims the name, but one that walks the walk.

The good thing is there have been less wars in the last 25 years than there have been in any 25 year period ever before (in recorded history). We (at least in America) have done away with slavery and segregation. We have given women (almost) equal rights. We allow everyone, yes even satanists, to worship according to the dictates of their concience. We do not shut the devopementally disabled away in "hospitals" that are more like prissons but instead help them live meaningful lives. I'd say compared with how things are even 50 years ago we have made great strides in morality.

Well, for starters, you went wrong by persecuting certain "undesireable" groups. Instead of worrying about yourselves, you decided, instead, to worry about the speck in our eye, and ignore the plank in your own eye.

Why don't you worry about yourselves, and quit trying to oppress gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people...and while you're at it...how about Y'ALL GET THE FUCK OUT OF POLITICS?? That or pay your fuckin' admission price like everyone else! I say any church with involvement or influence in politics needs to lose their tax exemption!

"Amen" to that! Heh.

The thing I have always hated about Christianity the MOST is how they always act like they desperately NEED world control, world domination. Always trying to get others to convert. (Jewish people are far better on this front: the ONLY time they try to get others to convert, is when a non-Jewish person is marrying a Jewish person--as far as my knowledge anyway.) Creeping into politics--your beliefs shouldn't have to affect those who don't agree with you! Their stubbornness that they are ALWAYS right. WTF is wrong with Homosexuality, etcetera? It's just love! Don't take it out on them just because you straight people can't get it right, if you get my drift.

I'll make a new religion! Christiansareassholesianism.

Lee Harvey Oswald- Pagan

9/11 bombings- Islam

England Bombings- Islam

Oklohoma City- Satanist

Columbine- Pagan/ Satanist

and the list goes on and on....you overlook lots of things...

Please refer back to my Mathew quote. While you may feel you are defending Christianity you have just shown hatred towards Muslims, Pagans, and Satanists.

Please refer back to my Mathew quote. While you may feel you are defending Christianity you have just shown hatred towards Muslims, Pagans, and Satanists.

As is the nature of Christianity.

Well i wasn't directly refering to the group of satanists..they use the name mockingly...But i was talking about people that actually openly worship Satan..

You know at one point in history, oh say around 35-50 AD and most likely even longer, people were saying "I can't believe they're worshiping Chirst openly"

I mean yes we have cured older diseases, but what about the ones we never will cure? what about terrorism? constant warfare..most wars fought now than ever before.

People said we'd never cure some of the older deseases. Who know when we'll get a cure from AIDS. But when we do there will be other new deseases to combat. Terrorism has been around since before Christ's time and has never stopped. And we pratically mark history by the wars we hold, including battles like Jerico and others mentioned numberously in the bible, not to mention the Crusades, the Inquisition and others.

If only people could see it from the perspective froma devout christian, not just one that claims the name, but one that walks the walk.

I know people who walk the walk of Judism, Islam, Hinduism, Wiccian, Drudism. Their faith is as every bit strong as yours. In addition I also know of both "posers" and fanatics in all the religions.

I'll make a new religion! Christiansareassholesianism.

As much as fundamentalist Christians get on my nerve, the vast majority of Christians I met are wonderful people (in fact I'm married to one) content to practice their faith and very willing to respect yours. Please don't lump them all into one boat, it's the exact same type of thinking they use when they say atheists/pagans/muslims/etc evil.

Do what Jesus did. Start a new religion.

O SON OF LIGHT!
Forget all save Me and commune with My spirit. This is of the essence of My command, therefore turn unto it.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

Satan loves you.

As much as fundamentalist Christians get on my nerve, the vast majority of Christians I met are wonderful people (in fact I'm married to one) content to practice their faith and very willing to respect yours. Please don't lump them all into one boat, it's the exact same type of thinking they use when they say atheists/pagans/muslims/etc evil.

I am an athiest who is always persecuted in my belief of no god. Their always syains, "You don't believe in god? when you go to hell....."
etc.

Arguing over which groups have caused the most problems is just as silly as arguing over which time period things were worse. Besides the original poster did ask where Christianity went wrong. Isn't this akwnowledging that there are things wrong with the church.

I think we can sum up most of this Christian bashing as the vast majority recognize the church as corrupt so corruption would be one of those problems to overcome.

The only gods are the beatles.

They were bigger than Jesus!!!!! :p

The reason Christians generally are dismayed by Satanism is because it actually celebrates Satan's influence over the world.

Of course Satanists won't worship a deity named Satan. Of course they won't believe that indulgence of "baser" qualities has any association with the antithesis to good.

But they still promote these lifestyles. And, while "Satanism" may be a joke name, the joke is so accurate that it makes the shoe fit. To Christians who believe that this embracing of the purely human over anything else comes from Satan, the title "Satanism" is remarkably accurate.

That is why many Christians see Satanism as evil.

I am an athiest who is always persecuted in my belief of no god. Their always syains, "You don't believe in god? when you go to hell....."
etc.
I understand, in fact in high school I was beat up for my (lack of) beliefs. However, most Christians I have met (this is only my personal experience) would not say that to you, but instead believe that if you live a decent life you will go to heaven, in fact I know a lot of Christians who don't even believe in Hell. Are there Christians who are petty, irratating, abusive, arrogant, prejudice out there? You bet, but by no means all Chrstians are like this.

The reason Christians generally are dismayed by Satanism is because it actually celebrates Satan's influence over the world.

Of course Satanists won't worship a deity named Satan. Of course they won't believe that indulgence of "baser" qualities has any association with the antithesis to good.

But they still promote these lifestyles. And, while "Satanism" may be a joke name, the joke is so accurate that it makes the shoe fit. To Christians who believe that this embracing of the purely human over anything else comes from Satan, the title "Satanism" is remarkably accurate.

That is why many Christians see Satanism as evil.


See? Christians are evil little fuckers....

There are people who are open satanists.

hate the sin, love the sinner, pal.

I understand, in fact in high school I as beat up for my (lack of) beliefs. However, most Christians I have met (this is only my personal experience) would not say that to you, but instead believe that if you live a decent life you will go to heaven, in fact I know a lot of Christians who don't even believe in Hell. Are there Christians who are petty, irratating, abusive, arrogant, prejudice out there? You bet, but by no means all Chrstians are like this.

Conservative Christian doctrine teaches that you get into heaven not be doing good things but by trusting Jesus Christ. One can believe this without being a jerk about it. You don't go around and tell people they are going to hell as if you are somehow better then them. Christianity teaches it is this trust, not being a better person, that gets you into heaven.

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast."

It really does seem that Christians would be precieved better by the rest of the world if they actually followed the directions in that book they claim to believe in doesn't it?

I understand, in fact in high school I was beat up for my (lack of) beliefs. However, most Christians I have met (this is only my personal experience) would not say that to you, but instead believe that if you live a decent life you will go to heaven, in fact I know a lot of Christians who don't even believe in Hell. Are there Christians who are petty, irratating, abusive, arrogant, prejudice out there? You bet, but by no means all Chrstians are like this.

Matthew 25:31-46
The sheep and goats "parable".

It really does seem that Christians would be precieved better by the rest of the world if they actually followed the directions in that book they claim to believe in doesn't it?

Hehe... it does seem that way doesn't it? Have you ever heard the story of Gandhi's visit to a Christian Church? He was made to leave because he wasn't white. Makes me understand his quote, "Christianity is a great idea, to bad it hasn't been tried yet."

Matthew 25:31-46
The sheep and goats "parable".

What about it?

You know I've always wondered about this thing. One of the major tenants of christianity is that we have free will. Well I've just really remembered one section of the bible which seems to fly in the face of this assumption.

Mat 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Jesus tells peter that he's going to deny him three times. Peter says he would never but when the time comes he does it. So what does this say about free will?

You know I've always wondered about this thing. One of the major tenants of christianity is that we have free will. Well I've just really remembered one section of the bible which seems to fly in the face of this assumption.

Mat 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Jesus tells peter that he's going to deny him three times. Peter says he would never but when the time comes he does it. So what does this say about free will?

It just says that God is able to see into the future, it doesn't mean Peter didn't still decide to do this himself.

Conservative Christian doctrine teaches that you get into heaven not be doing good things but by trusting Jesus Christ. One can believe this without being a jerk about it. You don't go around and tell people they are going to hell as if you are somehow better then them. Christianity teaches it is this trust, not being a better person, that gets you into heaven.

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast."

It really does seem that Christians would be precieved better by the rest of the world if they actually followed the directions in that book they claim to believe in doesn't it?

This is one of my favorite topics. :) Christians claim to disagree over the "faith vs. works" question, but even those who emphasize that we are indeed saved by faith alone recognize that good works result from this faith. Without the actual works, the faith is not really sincere. Take the Ephesians quote:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

I think you and I both agree that we Christians need to be better people. We need to spend more time at pregnancy crisis centers than we do at abortion protests, and the like. We just need to be better, more humble; doing more of God's works without taking pride in or credit for them, as Ephesians tells us.

here is what I see is the bottom line to any religion.

Your belief is what gets you to your desired afterlife. If you're right you go, if you're wrong you don't.

But in the end, assuming you're right, then you still go whether or not I believed the same as you.

Zilam, as a Christian, I'm sure you are familar with Romans:


2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.

or perhaps this verse:


Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.

It comes down to this. God gave us all free will to make a choice to follow Him or not (speaking from a Christian perspective). Therefore anything you do to force another to choose Christianity goes against God's Will since you remove that choice from the other person. Every time you show the hatred of the Church, instead of the love and forgiveness of Christ, you become a stumbling block.

Christ NEVER went around and figured out how to get rid of those who didn't follow him. He went and met with those who needed help; the prostitutes, the tax collectors, the lepers, the poor , the deseased. If they listened to him and believed and followed, he was glad. If they didn't he was saddened but he let them make their choices.

In the end true Christians will bring more people to God, however an individual sees Him, through caring and understanding than through the animosity you seem to be spouting. Also remember that no matter what you believe God will decide, He has the final say on who goes to Heaven and who doesn't. You may believe that Homosexuals are all going to go to Hell, and you may even be able to come up with documentation to that effect. But there is ALWAYS the chance you could be wrong or misunderstanding it. After all the Jew misunderstood the prohacy of Christ even to this day (again speaking from a Christian perspective)

Caronicilia, as much as I could never prove to you that God exsisted, you can never prove to me that He doesn't. Such is the essence of faith. I have faith that He does, you have faith that He doesn't. Regardles of its origan, the "Golden Rule" to treat others as you would have them treat you stands. If you wish for me to respect your belief that there is no Deity of any type, please respect mine that there is.

You know I've always wondered about this thing. One of the major tenants of christianity is that we have free will. Well I've just really remembered one section of the bible which seems to fly in the face of this assumption.

Mat 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Jesus tells peter that he's going to deny him three times. Peter says he would never but when the time comes he does it. So what does this say about free will?

Well, I don't think he did it because Jesus said he would, Jesus was telling him what would happen. If I remember correctly, Peter didn't try to stop himself and God made him deny Jesus anyway.

What about it?

Oh, sorry, I should have clarified that I was agreeing with you. About living a decent life being paramount.

How is the world better than previous times? We have more death and disease, poverty, famine and etc... There are people who are open satanists.
and so forth. Now i am not perfect by anymeans. But there needs to be change in the church get the flesh out and let the spirit in to its wonders.


We would revive the church like a gardener does with a garden. When there are weeds that choke out the life supple we must pluck them. We must water the plants and let the Son shine down to help it grow into something full of fruit(not gay fruit either, biblical refrence).

That was a completely unnecessary whack at a hated minority group, and favorite target of Christians! You wanna know what's wrong with your faith? Look no further than the words you just wrote!!

Unconditional love, my ass. Love your neighbor as yourself, my ass!

to tell you the truth i think religion was the worst creation a human ever made(no offense to anybody) i mean seriously we got a whole bunch of different religions and still everybody thinks their religion is right, i find it very stupid that people who are'nt christians go to hell or w/e happens but the point of this is that i think we should just live life as it is dont rely on some unreal figure for all your problems

Jesus tells peter that he's going to deny him three times. Peter says he would never but when the time comes he does it. So what does this say about free will?

It says that Jesus was the son of god and all that, and probably had some foresight into the matter. Who knows? Maybe they just added that in to make Jesus seem more imposing, the book has been translated/edited many a time.

For the most part some very good conversation on these topics, I'm quite plesantly surprised.

I'd just like to add that, in my opinion, all of the religions have it right. Whatever a person wants to believe, that's fine and well. All that's needed now is tolerance for each other... which seems to be taking it's time.

Anyways, kudos to all the polite discussion, your renewing some of my faith in humanity (it's been a bad month). =P

Not imposing faith on others would do wonders for reviving the role of the Church as spiritual council rather than political pawn.

Damn right!

Keep your God out of OUR lawbooks! Keep YOUR morals out of MY bedroom!

It just says that God is able to see into the future, it doesn't mean Peter didn't still decide to do this himself.
Well if god knows the future that means the future is actually set in stone. Which means we really don't have a choice in the matter. Peter said he would never do it but when the exact details of the prediction happens peter denies jesus. How can peter have free will if he is destined to do something?

Well, I don't think he did it because Jesus said he would, Jesus was telling him what would happen. If I remember correctly, Peter didn't try to stop himself and God made him deny Jesus anyway.

I don't think the bible goes into peter's mindset at the time and anything to that effect is speculation. Also I thought god didn't mess with our free will. If he didn't then god couldn't have made peter deny jesus.

I think we can sum up most of this Christian bashing as the vast majority recognize the church as corrupt so corruption would be one of those problems to overcome.

A good point. Remember that Spirituality is for God (in whatever for you view Divinity), Religion is for man.

Because man is sinful by nature (Christian Perspective) it stands to reason that all the religious institutions are corrupt. I trust no church. However, there are individual congregations I trust implicity. Maybe not all members there in, but in general. And there is no one denomination I trust.

Do you really think things were better 2000 or 1000 years ago? There is much less disease, wars, murder, etc. now than then. And there are things that were unheard of back then: women and children's rights, equality, labor laws, etc. Sure, there are other problems and more people suffer, but the population is much higher now and bad news are delivered almost instantly now.

Equality, my ass!
When gay, lesbian, bisexual , AND TRANSGENDER people are free from discrimination and harassment, THEN you can say we have equality.

I think a start would be to somehow apologize for the hatred we have shown others in the name of Christ. We are to love the sinner and hate the sin (sorry if that sounds too cliche). I think one issue the church is particularly bad on is homosexuality. We have the liberal churches saying we need to love them and therefore we need to accept the practice of homosexuality as okay. The conservative churches seem to teach we need to condemn homosexuality and hate the homosexuals. They are both wrong. We need to love them while still teaching that such relations between the same gender is wrong. I don't see why we have so much difficulty loving them. We don't seem to have the same difficulty loving those who have sinned in other ways. Such as having premarital sex. Or for that matter just looking at someone lustfully. Why has this group of people been singled out for such scorn?
Because our "sin" is VISIBLE. Because the other "sins" you mention can be ignored, swept under the rug, act like they never happened. I don't believe homosexuality to be a sin, anyway. JESUS never said a word about it. If it was SUCH A BIG CONCERN to Him, you'd think He'd have said something about it, somewhere in the Gospels.

Equality, my ass!
When gay, lesbian, bisexual , AND TRANSGENDER people are free from discrimination and harassment, THEN you can say we have equality.

That would imply that everyone in the world would be a kind, understanding, rational person, and I'm afraid that just isn't going to happen. There's still a lot of room for improvement within certain parts of certain religions [edit- and other social groups], that is for sure. But even if you limited their right to speak up on such issues, do you think that would make them suddenly stop feeling that way? Heck, it'd probably make them angrier. =/

Human nature is a harsh mistress.

here is what I see is the bottom line to any religion.

Your belief is what gets you to your desired afterlife. If you're right you go, if you're wrong you don't.

But in the end, assuming you're right, then you still go whether or not I believed the same as you.

Zilam, as a Christian, I'm sure you are familar with Romans:



or perhaps this verse:



It comes down to this. God gave us all free will to make a choice to follow Him or not (speaking from a Christian perspective). Therefore anything you do to force another to choose Christianity goes against God's Will since you remove that choice from the other person. Every time you show the hatred of the Church, instead of the love and forgiveness of Christ, you become a stumbling block.

Christ NEVER went around and figured out how to get rid of those who didn't follow him. He went and met with those who needed help; the prostitutes, the tax collectors, the lepers, the poor , the deseased. If they listened to him and believed and followed, he was glad. If they didn't he was saddened but he let them make their choices.

In the end true Christians will bring more people to God, however an individual sees Him, through caring and understanding than through the animosity you seem to be spouting. Also remember that no matter what you believe God will decide, He has the final say on who goes to Heaven and who doesn't. You may believe that Homosexuals are all going to go to Hell, and you may even be able to come up with documentation to that effect. But there is ALWAYS the chance you could be wrong or misunderstanding it. After all the Jew misunderstood the prohacy of Christ even to this day (again speaking from a Christian perspective)

Caronicilia, as much as I could never prove to you that God exsisted, you can never prove to me that He doesn't. Such is the essence of faith. I have faith that He does, you have faith that He doesn't. Regardles of its origan, the "Golden Rule" to treat others as you would have them treat you stands. If you wish for me to respect your belief that there is no Deity of any type, please respect mine that there is.

That is just the thing. If people did this--left others to their choices, etc.--then I would probably have NO problem with Christianity.

The only thing is, people DON'T do anything that. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Many, many Christians don't practice what they preach, and horrible, horrible things have come of it! Not only that, but it has turned Christianity into an obnoxious, pushy, vain, domineering, etc. religion in many non Christians' eyes.

Etcetera.

From my understanding, most Satanists don't actually believe in Satan but pick that religion to mock and upset Christians and/or engage in "fun" activities (not saying this is true for all).

I'm not sure this says anything bad about Christians or the world. Though we need to look at why certain groups want to mock and upset Christians. Do they just think our beliefs are silly, or has our hatred and hypocricy caused them to dislike us.

Speaking as a member of a group that has received large doses of hatred from "Christians," I would say the second theory would be far closer to the mark!

The truth is that the world is never going to be perfect and lets stop trying to make that fantasy happen, gays will always be hated on, black people will be discriminated you know you are never going to have the perfect world so i think we should just live without religions

"There are people who are open satanists." This right there, RIGHT THERE is why the world has gotten worse. There is still ignorant morons like you. WOOOOOOOO! THE SATANISTS ARE OUT IN THE OPEN! Get with it bud, and drop the evangelical crap.

Anyways, stupidity aside, the world has not gotten worse. I was raised Catholic and if you ask me, the world couldn't be better. We are cultural, scientifically and technologically at our zenith; only getting better too. People are becoming less and less ignorant. Racism is CONSIDERABLY reduced.

Disease you say is an ever greater problem? I suppose the advent of antibiotics and modern medicine hasn't helped one bit. :rolleyes:

As for poverty, give it a few decades. The world will be full of Americas and Canadas and all the likes.

And famine? Again, technology will provide the solution to this problem, if it hasn't already.

1) If we are at our zenith, we can't be getting better, only stagnating (which is to say, staying the same), or getting worse (which is to say, getting worse).

2) Yes, and evolution will murder us all on this point. If antibiotics had as few side effects as you seem to believe (such as, leaving the viruses and germs resistant to them alive, which effectively means making said antibiotics useless) then there would be no more disease. However, because their DNA is so small, bacteria and the like adapt very rapidly to these medicines, and because the proliferate and breed so rapidly, we are back at square one.

3) "If it hasn't already?" You don't need to look to Africa or Asia to see people starving. Look in any major city in the world, and tell me that there are no poor or hungry people.

Sincerely,

Number III

Intresting on how this was for christians only. Yet we have everyone throw their own crap in from the peanut gallery..Oh well.

You can't post a thread on a general public forum, and then only allow CERTAIN people to come by and make comments. You asked for comments...and how you guys can start to fix your church, and the way you are percieved, well I got it for ya. If you Christians don't wanna HEAR what we have to say, because you Christians don't want to let go of your petty hatreds, that is not my problem.

The truth is that the world is never going to be perfect and lets stop trying to make that fantasy happen, gays will always be hated on, black people will be discriminated you know you are never going to have the perfect world so i think we should just live without religions

Well, it may not be gays or blacks... but someone will always hate someone else. And as long as humans organize in social groups, one of those groups will end up hating another. It's just the way we work. So unless we all start taking medication to even us out, or retreat into the hills and our homes and become hermits, we're pretty much out of luck.

The world as it is, and most of the institutions there-in are doing pretty well, so try to change things for the better, and enjoy the ride that is life. ^.^

Well i wasn't directly refering to the group of satanists..they use the name mockingly...But i was talking about people that actually openly worship Satan..not just in name. I think things are better in some ways, but worse in most other ways. I mean yes we have cured older diseases, but what about the ones we never will cure? what about terrorism? constant warfare..most wars fought now than ever before. If only people could see it from the perspective froma devout christian, not just one that claims the name, but one that walks the walk.

Yo. Why don't you let OTHERS tell you if you REALLY "walk the walk" and not just "talk the talk." If you DO walk the walk, you won't need to announce it, because people will notice.

Well if god knows the future that means the future is actually set in stone. Which means we really don't have a choice in the matter. Peter said he would never do it but when the exact details of the prediction happens peter denies jesus. How can peter have free will if he is destined to do something?

Oh you just hit on one of my favorite topic. How God can know the future and we still have free will.

You watch me take out a gun and murder someone. I do so of my own free will. Then you get into your handy dandy time machine and go to the past and watch the event from the other end. You know what's going to happen. But dispite the fact that you know what will happen it's still my free will that allowed me to make that choice to murder someone.

God being Omnipitant, Omnicient and Omnipresent, by definition exsists outside our persepctive of linier time (personal theory), thus He can see what our choices will be. He can even then put events in various places of our lives in hopes of getting us to make diffrent choices.

But christianity is worse:

Crusades: Christian

Fall of the Roman Empire: Christian

Slavery: Christian (hard slavery- to black people)

Indian wars: Christian

The banning of Europeans from the Asian nations: Christians

The fucking Holocaust: You guessed it..... Christians



And the luck winner for most extreme assholes as a group is...............


OMG!!!!! Christians.

There is NO god.


You forgot persecution of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people...you forgot openly denying them jobs or the ability to earn a living. You forgot Pat Robertson's suggestion in his 1988 book that all of us GLBT folk should be rounded up and summarily EXECUTED!!
Yes, he said it...and a lot of you so-called Christians think it's a damn good idea! :mad:

i agree with you coultgar but there is not such thing as equality literally it would be a sick world if everybody was alike and nobody had something better than the other, us humans its in our blood to be violent, nasty and w.e other bad habits we have its never going to change i think it will get better but there will be always be racism, wars, there is no way to stop it and even if we do speaking hypothetically if we live in peace and harmony eventually aliens or outcasts will ruin it and our world will come crashing down hard as ever on us, i think we are just living right, right now

I'll make a new religion! Christiansareassholesianism.

Yo!! I now have Pepsi all over my monitor that spurted through my nose!
thanks a lot! Asshole. :D

If everyone was the same and happy all the time, we're probably all end up killing ourselves out of boredom. Hence diversity, which begets jealousy and disgust (among other things). It's all a necessary part of the human experience.

So essentially I agree... unless we all turn into emotionless robots sometime soon, then expect more of the same your seeing now. =P

You forgot persecution of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people...you forgot openly denying them jobs or the ability to earn a living. You forgot Pat Robertson's suggestion in his 1988 book that all of us GLBT folk should be rounded up and summarily EXECUTED!!
Yes, he said it...and a lot of you so-called Christians think it's a damn good idea! :mad:

I really wish there was someway to disown Pat Robertson. I don't want to be judgemental, but he is clearly doing the Devil's work. He has lead many away from Christianity and all I hear from him is hatred.

Arguing over which groups have caused the most problems is just as silly as arguing over which time period things were worse. Besides the original poster did ask where Christianity went wrong. Isn't this akwnowledging that there are things wrong with the church.

I think we can sum up most of this Christian bashing as the vast majority recognize the church as corrupt so corruption would be one of those problems to overcome.
So would their BIGOTRY be a problem to overcome.

im wondering if any if you guys have heard or read the lucifer's principle

hate the sin, love the sinner, pal.
Ha! Most so-called Christians haven't the first clue how to love anything or anyone that isn't EXACTLY LIKE THEM!! Just be the slightest bit different, and watch the hate pile on. and dare to be VERY different, and watch the oppression, hatred, bigotry, and prejudice pour on.

Conservative Christian doctrine teaches that you get into heaven not be doing good things but by trusting Jesus Christ. One can believe this without being a jerk about it. You don't go around and tell people they are going to hell as if you are somehow better then them. Christianity teaches it is this trust, not being a better person, that gets you into heaven.

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast."

It really does seem that Christians would be precieved better by the rest of the world if they actually followed the directions in that book they claim to believe in doesn't it?
All's I can add to that is "Amen."

So would their BIGOTRY be a problem to overcome.

Yeah, I believe that was my first post, somewhere on page 1. Where I suggest they follow what Christ calls the first and second greatest comandments: to love God and to love people. And then I specifically condemed the gay bashing around page 2.

A few questions to all my brothers and sisters in Christ;

Where have we went wrong? How did we let the world get so bad? Why have we let the church become part intertwined witht the flesh? We need to figure out soon and revive the church in the name Of the Lord our Saviour :)

It is incredibly arrogant of you to believe that it is Christians who know the 'good' & the 'bad' of the world.
Why don't you just let the world take it's own course. People who want to be Christian will be Christian, people who don't shouldn't be press-ganged into it.
& I most definatly don't believe the world is worse. Is me being able to have a job, instead of staying home, keeping house & having babies not a good thing? Or would you like me to be burnt or hung because I do not believe in God, as happened back in your 'good old days'?

Intresting on how this was for christians only. Yet we have everyone throw their own crap in from the peanut gallery..Oh well.

I find it even more arrogant how you seem to hold the belief that all non-Christian talk/opinion is 'crap', from a 'peanut gallery'. Gee, what a great way to revive our faith in your church.


I'll make a new religion! Christiansareassholesianism.

It's called being Athiest (j/king).
But I have to agree with UnitarianUniversalists. Not all Christian are like that. Most of them are very nice, 'normal' people. Just like most people, reguardless of their religions or cultural affiliation.

Seriously man christianity and anything thats falls under it the bible is full of holes, nothing about whats in the bible is being practiced today its like a new bible was made but not written everybody goes by a different one

I'd like to point out that the reason there is more death, disease, and everything else is that there are simply more people.
:)
BTW, I happen to be one of those open Satanists. :)

Most so-called Christians

Is this as opposed to most Christians. When you think about it most of our haters are the most vocal, but take it down to the hard numbers they are an extreme minority. Most people really don't care what your religious beliefs or bedroom habits or whatever are. It's only the control freaks, be them liberal or concevative, right or left, whatever, that really skew the perspective.

another thing i believe is that atheists among all the people in the world are the strongest because they dont rely on nothing and are thankful to nothing else but reality, and im not saying this because i am an atheist i see "believers" are afraid of everything getting hurt, death and they have to blame it on somebody adam and eve what the hell is that seriously but i think in some weird way religions are necessary for some certain people because without it its like they would go crazy its like their brain cant take it they will blow up :headbang:

I'd like to point out that the reason there is more death, disease, and everything else is that there are simply more people.
:)
BTW, I happen to be one of those open Satanists. :)

Considering all the speculation we have done as to why someone becomes a Satanist, maybe we should ask you why. Why did you pick Satanism?

Is this as opposed to most Christians. When you think about it most of our haters are the most vocal, but take it down to the hard numbers they are an extreme minority. Most people really don't care what your religious beliefs or bedroom habits or whatever are. It's only the control freaks, be them liberal or concevative, right or left, whatever, that really skew the perspective.

Maybe so. but they ARE the most vocal...and do a good job of making themselves LOOK like the majority. And, in either case...the politicains listen to the loudmouths who claim to represent Christianity, so they might as well BE the majority.

If y'all "majority" Christians won't stand up and SHOUT DOWN the likes of Pat Robertson, you leave the impression that you agree with him.

It really wasn't a question of becoming a Satanist. After I read the Satanic Bible, I realized that this is how i had been living my life up to that point anyway. I have always been a Satanist.

If y'all "majority" Christians won't stand up and SHOUT DOWN the likes of Pat Robertson, you leave the impression that you agree with him.
At least you weren't born in the same town as that nutjob... think of how I feel! =P

another thing i believe is that atheists among all the people in the world are the strongest because they dont rely on nothing and are thankful to nothing else but reality, and im not saying this because i am an atheist i see "believers" are afraid of everything getting hurt, death and they have to blame it on somebody adam and eve what the hell is that seriously but i think in some weird way religions are necessary for some certain people because without it its like they would go crazy its like their brain cant take it they will blow up :headbang:

Sure certain things in the Christian faith are comforting, but if they are true then one should believe in them. If they are false one shouldn't. It shouldn't have anything to do with toughness.

Besides this sounds like the old Christianity is a crutch argument. My respons: If someone wasn't able to walk so they were stumbling and crawling along while someone else in the same situation uses a crutch what would you say. Would you say the person crawling and stubling along is tougher, while the other is weak for using the crutch.

That was a completely unnecessary whack at a hated minority group, and favorite target of Christians! You wanna know what's wrong with your faith? Look no further than the words you just wrote!!

Unconditional love, my ass. Love your neighbor as yourself, my ass!


If i didn't put in in there we all know some jerk of would of said hahah fruit. I was clarifying. And for all those christian bashers out there:
I do resepect everyone and their beliefs, I love everyone with an honest pure love, a love that would cause me to give up my own life to save that of another, even a stranger. And why is it that there is a double standard when it comes to us? If we say something the least bit seemingly politically incorrect we are automatically thought of intolerant heathens. Yet if one of you says anyhting and everything bad there is to say about us, you are hailed and looked upon as being heros in fighting off the nasty christian beast. Enough of this double standard.

The strongest people don't need crutches. Does that mean we should lokk down on those that do? Certainly not. But who is the better person, the one who needs that emotional crutch or the one who doesn't?

If y'all "majority" Christians won't stand up and SHOUT DOWN the likes of Pat Robertson, you leave the impression that you agree with him.

A good point.

So the argument is not that Christians should be less vocal... it's that the more "compassionate" Christians should be more vocal than the individual-haters.

I find it even more arrogant how you seem to hold the belief that all non-Christian talk/opinion is 'crap', from a 'peanut gallery'. Gee, what a great way to revive our faith in your church.

Yeah sorry about the crap word. I was comming up blank when i was thinking of a word to put down :(

they would be tougher but stupid, but listen if the person could make it through their life without being a believer i think thats just right and its not a matter about being tough its about accepting the facts that there is no god or satan, and that if something bad happens to you you should blame it solely on yourself instead of god or whoever you believe in

Where have we gone wrong?
We have become lukewarm and lazy.

How did we let the world get so bad?
we have become lukewarm, lazy and apathetic

Why have we let the church become part intertwined with the flesh?
our lazyness and apathy have led us to false teachings because it would be too much work to question the people spreading the untruths,and our apathy lets us have the "besides why should we care anyway? let them do what they want, I will believe what I want to and besides what they are saying sounds less extreme and maybe I will be liked by the general public" attitude.

they would be tougher but stupid, but listen if the person could make it through their life without being a believer i think thats just right and its not a matter about being tough its about accepting the facts that there is no god or satan, and that if something bad happens to you you should blame it solely on yourself instead of god or whoever you believe in

Yes. We should all accept responability for our success and our failures.

A good point.

So the argument is not that Christians should be less vocal... it's that the more "compassionate" Christians should be more vocal than the individual-haters.

Yeah, I try to be more vocal but don't know what to do. Best I can come up with is posting on discussion boards it seems. I'm not interesting enough to get on TV. The media loves crazy people like Pat Roberston. Someone going around saying we need to love one another and get along doesn't really interest the media. Sort of reminds me of all the demands that Muslims condemn terrorism. Many are doing so, but it doesn't get any press.

The strongest people don't need crutches. Does that mean we should lokk down on those that do? Certainly not. But who is the better person, the one who needs that emotional crutch or the one who doesn't?

Der Drache makes an excellent point, though. Ideally, Christians should believe there is more to life than lazing about, wasting, consuming in excess, and hating. We should try to help the rest of the world, and God helps us when we would fail through our own power.

The crutch is so we can transcend the life of one who doesn't need the crutch.

Besides... Christians may put their lives in God's hands, but it is usually because of our own lack of faith or misguided motivations that we fail. You could argue that this causes more accountability than a nonbeliever would encounter.

I'd like to add that the Bible used today is actually the Bible printed by Constantine (after editing and removing all parts that didn't portray Jesus as divine). Note, that I take Dan Brown's theories with a grain of salt, however the fact that Constantine created a new Bible when he made Christianity the official religion of Rome is a historical fact.
Hence, what Christians follow aren't actually "God's words", but rather what a Roman emperor believed to be the *real* "God's words".

Also, a previous post pointed to the persecution of the Christians during the Roman era, where they were fed to Lions etc. in public games. However, this was done due to *their* inability to be just a *bit* more understanding of others' beliefs. They used violence to force people to convert to Christianity, they were used to provide entertainment for that very public.

Christian ethics aren't really "Christian" ethics, as they derive from pagan religions, in Christianity's attempt to convert pagans. For example, Christmas = Yuletide - has NOTHING to do with Jesus' birth (as is the common belief). Jesus' birth = birth of Mithras. Jesus/Mary (his mother) = Isis/Osiris/Horus.

The reason religion is important in the modern world is because we need a reason to follow a set of ideals. Early history - you didn't follow those ideals, you went to hell, so you followed those ideals and went to heaven. Now, we need a greater motive, with the world turning towards secularism.

I believe that the answer to the problems doesn't lie in reviving Christianity, as with progress, there will be an increase in secularism. The answer rather lies in laws and politics. Instead of going to hell for doing "bad" deeds, you'll be jailed etc.

N.B. "Religion" = a set of strongly held beliefs. Therefore atheism and agnosticism are also considered to be religions.

For me, the only "god" out there is science, as it is this force which created the universe (if you believe in the Big Bang theory), and it is this force which created mankind (if you believe in the Evolution theory).

I see your point, Passivocalia. But I don't agree. I believe though own own power we can do anything you can with the help of your god.

seriously i dont think its because we are lazy thats why the world has gone wrong i think we are just in the right path because even back then when jesus roamed the earth there were worst things that we couldnt even imagine now, i mean sure there are a few people who are lazy and w.e but listen we got aliens coming in to the country and breaking their backs just to get enough to live and yet they dont blame this on their god , i dont have beef with gods but its just the thought of people getting misled its just like wow, how gullable are people today

I'd like to add that the Bible used today is actually the Bible printed by Constantine (after editing and removing all parts that didn't portray Jesus as divine). Note, that I take Dan Brown's theories with a grain of salt, however the fact that Constantine created a new Bible when he made Christianity the official religion of Rome is a historical fact.
Hence, what Christians follow aren't actually "God's words", but rather what a Roman emperor believed to be the *real* "God's words".

Constantine made the church call a council so it would be monolithic in belief. He didn't really actively participate in the way the Bible books were chosen. He didn't even convert until his deathbed... and, I haven't found out whether it's true, but I have heard that he converted to the Arianist heresy, or contrary to the council.

So it would make sense that it was the group of Christians who did all the arbitrary things you describe. Some of us have faith that they were guided by God when they did this, so that is our justification for trusting the current Bible.

I believe that the answer to the problems doesn't lie in reviving Christianity, as with progress, there will be an increase in secularism. The answer rather lies in laws and politics. Instead of going to hell for doing "bad" deeds, you'll be jailed etc.

Yeah, but a secular police state is just as scary as a religious one. Look at the Nazi and Communist regimes, or Orwell's 1984.

N.B. "Religion" = a set of strongly held beliefs. Therefore atheism and agnosticism are also considered to be religions.

Oh, we are *so* in agreement, Tarquinius. Good to know an atheist shares my sentiments. :)

i more than agree with you Tarquinius Superbus , but i dont think being atheist is a religion of course if you believe that science is a religion which im pretty sure nobody does thats the only way its a religion, because science is reality i dont believe in the big bang theory i know something similar happened there so many theories in science but we will never know the answer to that

seriously i dont think its because we are lazy thats why the world has gone wrong i think we are just in the right path because even back then when jesus roamed the earth there were worst things that we couldnt even imagine now, i mean sure there are a few people who are lazy and w.e but listen we got aliens coming in to the country and breaking their backs just to get enough to live and yet they dont blame this on their god , i dont have beef with gods but its just the thought of people getting misled its just like wow, how gullable are people today
don't know if this was aimed at me or not, but I felt like clarifying anyway.

when I said lazy I was speaking about Christians being lazy and not physically lazy but spiritually lazy.

I have seen to many people in my own church, who are just there to fill the pews, say amen when they think they are supposed to, and wear a Christian T-shirt once in a while, hoping that it will 'plant a seed'.

To me that is the lazy Christian, we are supposed to be doing things not sitting back and waiting for God to do it for us while we whine about how bad things are.

but that is just what I have observed. ;)

I thought that Constantine saw a giant cross in the sky before a battle and converted after he won. I could be wrong though.

I thought that Constantine saw a giant cross in the sky before a battle and converted after he won. I could be wrong though.
Anything like that sounds a little to contrived and unbelievable to actually be true... remember, he WAS a politician, they had them back then too. =P

smunkeeville are you christian?

I never believed that. I was pionting out that I thought he had converted as a young man, not on his deathbed.

Eh, I was just pointing out that it probably wasn't true, not specifically to you.

But hearing all the sides is important too... stupid history, so inaccurate, that's why we need time machines. =P

Bloated Goat i doubt theres ever gonna be a time machine because if there is a future they would have came back to our time already lol :headbang:

smunkeeville are you christian?
yup.

I never believed that. I was pionting out that I thought he had converted as a young man, not on his deathbed.

Well, in fairness, a lot of that aspect probably had to do with the belief (still held) that baptism washes away all your sins through Christ. Back in the day, there was worry that if you picked up too many sins after baptism... yeah.

The story with the cross in the sky is different. Constantine told the Christians that if he won the battle Christianity would be LEGAL in the Roman Empire, not the state religion.

It was made the state religion later... I don't remember if that was Constantine's doing or not.

Cynics believe Constantine made Christianity legal just so he could have them on his side in that battle, which is a major possibility. I have no idea, myself.

Considering they held a "Timetravellar's Convention" recently, and no one showed up, it's a likely possibility (barring idealistic government regulations on their use only for observational research).

But it's still fun to dream about. =P

Smunkeeville explain me this because one time i did this with my friend we went to a church and asked the padre if dinosaurs ever existed he denied that fact when there is solid evidence that there is, explain me that one

A few questions to all my brothers and sisters in Christ;

Where have we went wrong? How did we let the world get so bad? Why have we let the church become part intertwined witht the flesh? We need to figure out soon and revive the church in the name Of the Lord our Saviour :)

I'd like to get back to the original question. Where did we go wrong?
We are so busy trying to please ourselves, that we forget to see what it is that God truly wants.
He does want everyone to love each other. He doesn't want the hate, mistrust, and evil that abounds.
But hopefully, that would be what all mankind would want.
We're wrapped up in why you're wrong and I'm right. Why you're better than I am and how can I make you look bad so I can look better.

We have thrown away what the Bible or any other book that encourages faith, love, morality, hope, charity could offer. Instead we want a self-gratifying religion or way of life that tells us whatever we do and whatever we want is okay. Just go for it.

We've turned church services and times of worship into entertainment.
We have a millon (hypothetically) different denominations because we don't like what the Bible says or worse than that we go to church, claim to be Christians, and have no idea what the Bible says.
We blindly follow like sheep to the slaughter what someone else tells us is right or THE WAY to worship, but we can't seem to take the time to READ IT FOR YOURSELF!

That would solve most of what went wrong. READ IT! Aetheist, Agnostics,
Satanist, Catholics, Jews, Denominationalists, non-denominationalists, you name its! Just read it and then after you have studied it, then bash away as much as you want. Or don't read it and bash away.
Because my fellow humans, what it says is quite simple.
It takes FAITH.

Either you got it or you don't! But, I'll not judge you as the Bible tells me so!
Throw stones, berate, call me foolish, but it's taken me 45 years to get to this point.
I did the say or do anything for shock effect, the hey I want it my way and if it hurts someone else that's too bad. But it took a massive devastation in my life to make me wake up and realize WHAT WENT WRONG! ME!

Yes, I am a non-denominational/fundamentalist Christian.
I don't mind being called a fundmentalist because without the fundmentals you have nothing.
I will continue to pray for us all!

Smunkeeville explain me this because one time i did this with my friend we went to a church and asked the padre if dinosaurs ever existed he denied that fact when there is solid evidence that there is, explain me that one
ah. I am not Catholic so I don't know what they believe about that.

yes there were dinosaurs, the fact that there were dinosaurs doesn't negate God or anything, I don't know why someone would deny it.

I'd like to get back to the original question. Where did we go wrong?
We are so busy trying to please ourselves, that we forget to see what it is that God truly wants.
He does want everyone to love each other. He doesn't want the hate, mistrust, and evil that abounds.
But hopefully, that would be what all mankind would want.
We're wrapped up in why you're wrong and I'm right. Why you're better than I am and how can I make you look bad so I can look better.

We have thrown away what the Bible or any other book that encourages faith, love, morality, hope, charity could offer. Instead we want a self-gratifying religion or way of life that tells us whatever we do and whatever we want is okay. Just go for it.

We've turned church services and times of worship into entertainment.
We have a millon (hypothetically) different denominations because we don't like what the Bible says or worse than that we go to church, claim to be Christians, and have no idea what the Bible says.
We blindly follow like sheep to the slaughter what someone else tells us is right or THE WAY to worship, but we can't seem to take the time to READ IT FOR YOURSELF!

That would solve most of what went wrong. READ IT! Aetheist, Agnostics,
Satanist, Catholics, Jews, Denominationalists, non-denominationalists, you name its! Just read it and then after you have studied it, then bash away as much as you want. Or don't read it and bash away.
Because my fellow humans, what it says is quite simple.
It takes FAITH.

Either you got it or you don't! But, I'll not judge you as the Bible tells me so!
Throw stones, berate, call me foolish, but it's taken me 45 years to get to this point.
I did the say or do anything for shock effect, the hey I want it my way and if it hurts someone else that's too bad. But it took a massive devastation in my life to make me wake up and realize WHAT WENT WRONG! ME!

Yes, I am a non-denominational/fundamentalist Christian.
I don't mind being called a fundmentalist because without the fundmentals you have nothing.
I will continue to pray for us all!

agree completely. ;)

i mean the evolution theory thats why he denies it i believe christians dont believe in that either? if so tell me and lets get creative with god creating himself from nothing tell me a more reasonable explanation than the evolution theory

***i mean the evolution theory thats why he denies it i believe christians dont believe in that either? if so tell me and lets not get creative with god creating himself from nothing tell me a more reasonable explanation than the evolution theory... and i always wanted to know tell me why are you christian ***

***i mean the evolution theory thats why he denies it i believe christians dont believe in that either? if so tell me and lets not get creative with god creating himself from nothing tell me a more reasonable explanation than the evolution theory... and i always wanted to know tell me why are you christian ***
I don't really have a fully formed opinion on evolution, it is plausable. I do believe in God and however it went down when the world began I know that God was the driving force. I don't think it really matters so much with the details because neither side will really be able to prove thiers (evolution/creationist)

as far as why I am a Christian the very simple answer is that I was in a bad place after making some really bad decisions and prayed a prayer that I was unsure of, but God showed me himself in a very BIG way!!! After that there was no room for denial, and I commited my life to Him.

if you need a more detailed answer that is fine. I have to go to sleep now though and will answer anymore questions you have tomorrow, and can also clarify anything that my current state of exauhstion has caused me to be too vague about. :)

alrite thats cool if you get to check back, my continent is Wysteria look me up because im interested in knowing your position as a christian and debate over it

Some Christians believe in evolution, some do not. Ive never heard of a Christian who doesnt believe dinosaurs ever existed though. I even knew a Catholic priest who believed in evolution (theistic evolution of course).

An agnostic's perspective:

Comparing the scientific theories and the Bible:

Bible: God made the sun and the stars.
Big Bang: Stars are formed first of all due to the big band.

Bible: God makes earth and heaven.
Science: Earth's atmosphere forms after billions of years (assuming heaven can be treated as the sky).

Bible: God created day and night.
Science: Earth revolves on its own axis, creating day and night, due to its initial angular momentum.

Bible: God created life.
Science: Life is formed on earth (eventually).

Bible: God creates man.
Science: Man evolves.

And so on...

As you can see, science and the Bible do not differ in their accounts of what *happened*, they differ in what was the *driving* force behind these. Bible attributes it to a omnipotent being, God. Science attributes it to...well...science - physics, chemistry, biology.

So, simply replace "God" with "science", and amazingly, Christianity doesn't sound so forceful...

[QUOTE=Tarquinius Superbus]I'd like to add that the Bible used today is actually the Bible printed by Constantine (after editing and removing all parts that didn't portray Jesus as divine). Note, that I take Dan Brown's theories with a grain of salt, however the fact that Constantine created a new Bible when he made Christianity the official religion of Rome is a historical fact.
Hence, what Christians follow aren't actually "God's words", but rather what a Roman emperor believed to be the *real* "God's words".
QUOTE]
However we have original, untainted manucscripts? so we would be able to see any changes

I'd like to add that the Bible used today is actually the Bible printed by Constantine (after editing and removing all parts that didn't portray Jesus as divine). Note, that I take Dan Brown's theories with a grain of salt, however the fact that Constantine created a new Bible when he made Christianity the official religion of Rome is a historical fact.
Hence, what Christians follow aren't actually "God's words", but rather what a Roman emperor believed to be the *real* "God's words".


Actually, that is incorrect. When the recently converted Contstantine called the council of Nicea, the main issue that was dealt with was the discrepancy between the teachings of Arius and the rest of Christianity. Arius taught that the father, son, and holy spirit were separate entities and thus Jesus was not God. The prevailing view was the view held by the other Church leaders who taught what we now know as the trinity. The Arian controversy, as we've come to know it today, was the main controversy settled at Nicea.

The canon of the new testament pre-dates the council of Nicea. If you read the Muratorian Fragment (also known as the Muratorian Canon), you find that the canon we currently have today is almost exactly the same as that used by early Christians as evidenced by the Muratorian Fragment (dated AD170-210).

By the time of the Nicean council, the bible was well established although it hadnt been made official. Only a few books were controversial (Hewbrews, the Revelation of John, the Revelation of Peter, Wisdom of Solomon, and 2 Peter). Of those, the Revelation of Peter and Wisdom of Solomon did not make it into the bible. What was the criteria for whether a book should be accepted or not? The criteria was whether the book was written by an apostle or close follower of an apostle. When the authorship of a book was in question, this is when the book became controversial.

The dead sea scrolls and other early documents (predating the council of Nicea) prove that none of the books were edited by Constantine or anyone else.

Therefore your statement that Constantine edited the books of the bible and left out ones that put the divinity of Jesus in doubt is without any historical basis. Constantine did not need to make Jesus seem more divine, for it was Arius and his followers who were the minority, the divinity of Jesus was widely accepted at the time. Yes, this is far less exciting than the global conspiracy spanning centuries and reaching back into early history that Dan Brown created, but it is also far more real.

I don't really have a fully formed opinion on evolution, it is plausable. I do believe in God and however it went down when the world began I know that God was the driving force. I don't think it really matters so much with the details because neither side will really be able to prove thiers (evolution/creationist)

as far as why I am a Christian the very simple answer is that I was in a bad place after making some really bad decisions and prayed a prayer that I was unsure of, but God showed me himself in a very BIG way!!! After that there was no room for denial, and I commited my life to Him.

if you need a more detailed answer that is fine. I have to go to sleep now though and will answer anymore questions you have tomorrow, and can also clarify anything that my current state of exauhstion has caused me to be too vague about. :)

The thing about evolution is that -- Fine! God could have created the world. But he created it through the scientific theories that exist today.

A scientific "theory" is the highest order an idea can receive in science. It's about level with a fact, but in science nobody ever takes anything as positively certain because you can always find out more.

I think a start would be to somehow apologize for the hatred we have shown others in the name of Christ. We are to love the sinner and hate the sin (sorry if that sounds too cliche). I think one issue the church is particularly bad on is homosexuality. We have the liberal churches saying we need to love them and therefore we need to accept the practice of homosexuality as okay. The conservative churches seem to teach we need to condemn homosexuality and hate the homosexuals. They are both wrong. We need to love them while still teaching that such relations between the same gender is wrong. I don't see why we have so much difficulty loving them. We don't seem to have the same difficulty loving those who have sinned in other ways. Such as having premarital sex. Or for that matter just looking at someone lustfully. Why has this group of people been singled out for such scorn?
I think you have just hit the nail on the head! I have several gay friends and while they are aware of my stance on their lifestyle they also know that I respect and value them as friends.

While we need to recognize the face that has been shown by the "Christian" community over the ages it is also necessary to point out and educate, those that hate the modern Christian, that things like the Crusades were politically motivated and only used Christ as an excuse. Much the same as the Muslim community is suffering for the morons that are using it as an excuse for terrorism!

"There are people who are open satanists." This right there, RIGHT THERE is why the world has gotten worse. There is still ignorant morons like you. WOOOOOOOO! THE SATANISTS ARE OUT IN THE OPEN! Get with it bud, and drop the evangelical crap.

Anyways, stupidity aside, the world has not gotten worse. I was raised Catholic and if you ask me, the world couldn't be better. We are cultural, scientifically and technologically at our zenith; only getting better too. People are becoming less and less ignorant. Racism is CONSIDERABLY reduced.

Disease you say is an ever greater problem? I suppose the advent of antibiotics and modern medicine hasn't helped one bit. :rolleyes:

As for poverty, give it a few decades. The world will be full of Americas and Canadas and all the likes.

And famine? Again, technology will provide the solution to this problem, if it hasn't already.
Personal attacks like that are uncalled for!

It is not just the openness of Satanism in all it's forms but the glorification and suppossed justifications. Much of your arguements are fundementally flawed. I could put you in contact with several dozen African Americans that would severley disagree with your comments about racism. One was thrown out of a dinner the other night just because he and his white female friend walked into the place. She was allowed to stay he wasn't! Disease is just as big if not a bigger problem today as it was 1-2000 years ago! The "bugs" that are out there are becoming resistant to our antibiotics and with the increase in travel and the increase in speed of travel it is a major problem containing the diseases. IE: a certain little respritory disease that even 100 years ago would have stayed contained to a small area of China spread to Canada and elsewhere because of jet travel! (read that as SARS if you didn't catch that!) Poverty is a major problem in Canada and an even bigger problem in the States.

I read the Major point of this thread as the MORAL decay of the world and how we have failed to enforce an adherance to the moral codes that our countries were formed under!

A few questions to all my brothers and sisters in Christ;

Where have we went wrong? How did we let the world get so bad? Why have we let the church become part intertwined witht the flesh? We need to figure out soon and revive the church in the name Of the Lord our Saviour :)

1. Good question.
2. We don't run the world, if you've noticed. So it's not our fault how the world turns out.
3. Hey, I'm not a Catholic priest, so don't ask me.
4. Reviving the "church" is largely a matter of looking to your own personal relationship with God. Not by putting on a funny hat and promulgating a lot of silly rules. Or by distributing tracts. Or spreading hate.

Indeed, perhaps I was heated in my...rhetoric. I usually try to keep myself a bit more level-headed than that. But I passionately hate it when people make statements like that, of ANY religion. Also, I guess it also depends on the Satanism he means. If he means the cultists, then yea they're weird. If he means the Church of Satan, then he should brush up on they're beliefs. The "Satan" in there is just for shock value.
openly dedicated to the acceptance of Man’s true nature—that of a carnal beast, living in a cosmos which is permeated and motivated by the Dark Force which we call Satan. Sounds like the worship of Satan to me!

:headbang: I'm sick of Christians and thier Jesus. When will they learn it's all a big fairy tool that started out as a political weapon. Plus, look atit this way. Do you believe in Fairies, or dragons? God is just as ridiculous. Christianity is the cause for alot of problems also. The crusades, slavery, both in the name of god. Christianity is a stupid, arrogant set of Ideals......
Slavery exsisted LONG before Christianity and in fact Slavery was abolished by the Christian community despite it still being used in some countries. Faries and dragons never encouraged a multitude of societies to improve themsleves and their society for ALL. No Christianity did not start out as a political weapon but as bringing salvation and a desire to improve themselves to the masses!

Slavery exsisted LONG before Christianity and in fact Slavery was abolished by the Christian community despite it still being used in some countries. Faries and dragons never encouraged a multitude of societies to improve themsleves and their society for ALL. No Christianity did not start out as a political weapon but as bringing salvation and a desire to improve themselves to the masses!

It was Christians who drove most of the political action to eliminate slavery in the US.

Spirituality and religion aren't one in the same. ;)
actually all Religion is Spirituality but true not all Spirituality is Religion. Many cases of spirituality are faiths! My beliefs are Faith based not religious based!

Crusades: Christian

Fall of the Roman Empire: Christian

Slavery: Christian (hard slavery- to black people)

Indian wars: Christian

The banning of Europeans from the Asian nations: Christians

The fucking Holocaust: You guessed it..... Christians
Crusades were in the name of Christianity but were actually over trade routes.

Slavery was not even close to a Christian thing! In fact it was the Christians in the states and Canada that were the driving force behind the abolishment of slavery!

Indian Wars were about land and had NOTHING to do with Christianity!

Banning of Europeans from Asian nations was Isolationism.

Holocaust = Naziz = Anti-Christianity!

Get you facts straight! Even the fall of Rome would probably occoured at about the same time due to widespread corruption and the slave to Roman ratio of about 3-1!

As is the nature of Christianity.
No such is the nature of man! As you are adequately displaying.

Equality, my ass!
When gay, lesbian, bisexual , AND TRANSGENDER people are free from discrimination and harassment, THEN you can say we have equality.
Well, striving towards equality. At least we have equality as a goal now.
Unfortunately, still to this day, some are more equal than others, but that doesn't mean that great advances haven't been made.

Conservative Christian doctrine teaches that you get into heaven not be doing good things but by trusting Jesus Christ. One can believe this without being a jerk about it. You don't go around and tell people they are going to hell as if you are somehow better then them. Christianity teaches it is this trust, not being a better person, that gets you into heaven.

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast."

It really does seem that Christians would be precieved better by the rest of the world if they actually followed the directions in that book they claim to believe in doesn't it?
This is the bases for the True Christian Faith! Mankind being Mankind has corrupted the Faith and so legalized the Faith that it is no longer a faith but a Religion with a harsh God sitting up there waiting for you to screw up so he can nail you to the wall. Jehovah is a God of Love NOT a God of hate for you or your neighbor! If the Church can be brought back to the True Faith then perhaps we can once again live lives to be used as role models.

You know I've always wondered about this thing. One of the major tenants of christianity is that we have free will. Well I've just really remembered one section of the bible which seems to fly in the face of this assumption.

Mat 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Jesus tells peter that he's going to deny him three times. Peter says he would never but when the time comes he does it. So what does this say about free will?
He still had free will but that does not mean that there can be no foreknowledge of the future!

That would imply that everyone in the world would be a kind, understanding, rational person, and I'm afraid that just isn't going to happen. There's still a lot of room for improvement within certain parts of certain religions [edit- and other social groups], that is for sure. But even if you limited their right to speak up on such issues, do you think that would make them suddenly stop feeling that way? Heck, it'd probably make them angrier.
Equality doesn't mean that everybody gets along nice or that we'll all be of the same mind about things, but about how the law and social institutions treat individuals. That is, that laws and rules should be applied the same regardless of skin color, sexual orientation, gender, economic standing, etc.

That would solve most of what went wrong. READ IT! Aetheist, Agnostics,
Satanist, Catholics, Jews, Denominationalists, non-denominationalists, you name its! Just read it and then after you have studied it, then bash away as much as you want. Or don't read it and bash away.

I already read it. Along with the Quran, the Bhaghavad Gita, and the Popol Vuh. And even some of the Egyptian Book of the Dead. I've also read many other books, from Asimov's science divulgation to a few by Sir Roger Penrose (although I often get lost in those). I guess that means I'm at full liberty to bash away.

ah. I am not Catholic so I don't know what they believe about that.

yes there were dinosaurs, the fact that there were dinosaurs doesn't negate God or anything, I don't know why someone would deny it.
Maybe he just wasn't a very good padre. The Vatican has accepted science as a way to get to know how God created the Universe.

It was Christians who drove most of the political action to eliminate slavery in the US.
And it was mostly Christians who fought to keep it. Since the US was (and still is) a mostly Christian country, that's nothing to be surprised about.

And it was mostly Christians who fought to keep it. Since the US was (and still is) a mostly Christian country, that's nothing to be surprised about.

While there were many who justified freeing slaves using the ideas from Christianity as a basis, there were few who justified keeping slaves using the ideas from Christianity.

The fact that there were Christians on both sides is not the point.

The thing about evolution is that -- Fine! God could have created the world. But he created it through the scientific theories that exist today.

A scientific "theory" is the highest order an idea can receive in science. It's about level with a fact, but in science nobody ever takes anything as positively certain because you can always find out more.
I am aware of that. I know that evolution happens (survival of the fittest) and that species change and adapt to be more fit for thier environments, that is undeniable. I don't know that the current theory(s) of how life began and how it evolved to what it is now are entirely accurate, I know that some form of evolution could very well be responisible. Like I said though I see God as fact, I have seen His impact in my life, I know that whatever happened He was behind it, and that is enough for me.

Thank you for pointing it out though, I do know a lot of Christians (and others) who think a theory is just "some idea I had" and don't realize all the evidence and work that goes into an actual scientific theory.

While there were many who justified freeing slaves using the ideas from Christianity as a basis, there were few who justified keeping slaves using the ideas from Christianity.

The fact that there were Christians on both sides is not the point.
Oh and where are you getting your pro/anti slavery statistics from?

Oh and where are you getting your pro/anti slavery statistics from?
The whole abolitionist movement was started by Christians in the US, in their home churches. Long before it reached the political stage, or the war.

That was my point - if those Christians had not stood up, and challenged slavery in the US on religious grounds, there would have been NO political movement and thus NO CIVIL WAR.

The whole abolitionist movement was started by Christians in the US, in their home churches. Long before it reached the political stage, or the war.

That was my point - if those Christians had not stood up, and challenged slavery in the US on religious grounds, there would have been NO political movement and thus NO CIVIL WAR.
Possibly

Possibly
Considering that abolitionists were the only ones who moved Northern public opinion to think of slavery as bad, and were the only ones bringing people like Frederick Douglass around on speaking tours, and were ALL associated with abolition through church activity, it would be hard to have had the Civil War otherwise.

Remember John Brown? He was a religious fanatic, as were his followers.

You would have had to have a secular movement to do the same - a secular movement which did not exist at all.

But christianity is worse:

Crusades: Christian

Fall of the Roman Empire: Christian

Slavery: Christian (hard slavery- to black people)

Indian wars: Christian

The banning of Europeans from the Asian nations: Christians

The fucking Holocaust: You guessed it..... Christians



And the luck winner for most extreme assholes as a group is...............


OMG!!!!! Christians.

There is NO god.


yes maybe the crusades were in the name of God. one thing with that. christians that were alive over one thousand years ago are not the same christians as today. i cannot see why the fall of the roman empire was such a bad thing, seeing as it was build on the back of slavery, which you go on to condemn. the rest of yur list? are yopu so dumb that you beleive that when someone says "THIS IS IN THE NAME OF GOD!" they are telling the truth? dont you happen to think that the rest were in the name of economic gain? and dont paint all christians by the same brush. so many christians live entirely to help others. many just use this as a way into power (George Bush maybe...) and many use the name of God as justification. but NOWHERE in the Bible does it allow for any of the antrocites you mentioned.

If i didn't put in in there we all know some jerk of would of said hahah fruit.

I don't buy it. Poor excuse to take a cheap shot at a group of people your religion is renowned for hating on.
Why didn't you clarify that the COCK that crowed three times was a rooster? After all, we just know some jerk will go..."And the cock crowed three times....hee hee hee...cock is in the Bible...."

The good thing is there have been less wars in the last 25 years than there have been in any 25 year period ever before (in recorded history). We (at least in America) have done away with slavery and segregation. We have given women (almost) equal rights. We allow everyone, yes even satanists, to worship according to the dictates of their concience. We do not shut the devopementally disabled away in "hospitals" that are more like prissons but instead help them live meaningful lives. I'd say compared with how things are even 50 years ago we have made great strides in morality.



you beleive AMERICA of all nations has taken great strides in morality??? yes maybe people are free-er in your homeland. but this has been supported by the governments sapping of poorer nations and of the environment to meet their own financial ends. the american governmental institution makes me feel ill with disgust.

First of all, wow, where do I start? To answer someone's question of where we are now, I can say a few things: At least there is separation of church and state now, If you remember, the church had license to kill, hunting down so called "heretics" and the inquisition, etc.....the church had a lot to do with the crusades, as well as many deaths because they questioned it. I can say that isn't around like then, and I like that. As far as satanists go, I question that in general. I see them more as atheists anyway, they don't believe in punishment after they die, or God's love or anything like that, the Church of Satan has these views, so, I just see them as atheists that want to piss people off. If you are really threatened by them, then you don't have alot of faith anyways. Bush is just keeping america at war, we gotta have a war every 20 years or so, we have had one anyways. (Ever heard of Bildeburg???) Where all the world's leaders meet in a room, and no one knows what they do, or say, and no one has ever ever done reporting on it??? Hmm, I wonder what that means........Just accept that the real freedom is in the Netherlands, and we should all go there and have some special coffee. Everytime some yahoo starts the religion debate we are bound for trouble. YES, satanists are retarded and it sucks that there are open satanists. Yes that sucks. But freedom of religion is just that; freedom of religion. What do you want to do, change that to freedom of religion, as long as we like that religion??? Come now, be realistic. Lets just get Bush out, and get out of Takka takkka sand land and go for the real guy we want, osama. The reason he took us to war was the WMDs. Where are they? Hmm. Not there. Sure, Saddam should have been taken out, but if you argue that point now, where the hell were you in 1989? what about 1991? what about the Kurd massacres? We could have killed Osama many times but we didn't cause we may offend people, and we can't have people mad at us, can we. I hate the fact that there are GAY PRIESTS AND GAY PREACHERS out there, and nobody stopped it so far. If you wanna do something where were you, and why don't you stop it now then? In fact, if everyone cares so damn much why are we sitting here debating with our thumbs up our asses, why aren't we doing something RIGHT NOW. Truth is, everyone is just out to argue. I point the finger at myself now, I should have done more, I should be out there right now, in fact, PETA is protesting KFC here in TULSA OK, having a crippled chicken cross the road. Instead of doing something useful, lets all go protest cause people eat chicken! PETA doesn't give a crap about people! WOOOO HOOOO! yay! :mp5: :gundge: :sniper: :headbang: :gundge: If the nazis where christians, why did they destroy all the crusifixes and churches??? Oh well, I can't help but laugh at America.

you beleive AMERICA of all nations has taken great strides in morality??? yes maybe people are free-er in your homeland. but this has been supported by the governments sapping of poorer nations and of the environment to meet their own financial ends. the american governmental institution makes me feel ill with disgust.

Yeah but America was sapping poor countries and proping up tin dictators even 50 years ago. Nothing much has changed on that front.

you beleive AMERICA of all nations has taken great strides in morality??? yes maybe people are free-er in your homeland. but this has been supported by the governments sapping of poorer nations and of the environment to meet their own financial ends. the american governmental institution makes me feel ill with disgust.
Oh, I see.

So no European nation was the beneficiary of colonialism around the globe - the wholesale theft of labor and raw materials and land from people in just about every country. And no other country in the world today emits a single pollutant or disposes of a single gram of refuse - only the US does this.

I see.

Your pie-eyed smarmy view of the world indicates to me that it's time for you to clean your glasses so you can see.

Considering that abolitionists were the only ones who moved Northern public opinion to think of slavery as bad, and were the only ones bringing people like Frederick Douglass around on speaking tours, and were ALL associated with abolition through church activity, it would be hard to have had the Civil War otherwise.

Remember John Brown? He was a religious fanatic, as were his followers.

You would have had to have a secular movement to do the same - a secular movement which did not exist at all.
Yeah religion defiantly is a good tool to organize/control people

Defiantly makes you think if it in of itself is not an evolutionary trait

Yeah religion defiantly is a good tool to organize/control people

Defiantly makes you think if it in of itself is not an evolutionary trait

Religion, and to a similar extent, politics, are self-propagating memes. Ideas that are infective and have a life of their own.

I don't buy it. Poor excuse to take a cheap shot at a group of people your religion is renowned for hating on.
Why didn't you clarify that the COCK that crowed three times was a rooster? After all, we just know some jerk will go..."And the cock crowed three times....hee hee hee...cock is in the Bible...."


Ok for the Last time I DO NOT HATE NOR AM AGAINST HOMOSEXUALS. I have family memebers that are that I love very dearly. I mean grow up really and quit trying to find some sort of way to attack christians even more

Oh BTW Go JESUS :D

Ok for the Last time I DO NOT HATE NOR AM AGAINST HOMOSEXUALS. I have family memebers that are that I love very dearly. I mean grow up really and quit trying to find some sort of way to attack christians even more

Point Number One: If you want to have political influence (and y'all sure seem to) then get used to getting attacked. that is what people do when they don't like your political ideas. so if ya can't take the heat, get the fuck outta the kitchen.

Point Number Two: If you don't wanna be attacked, keep your God in your church, and your lives...quit trying to force Him into our lives or our lawbooks, or classrooms. Ergo: you leave us alone, we leave you alone.

Point Number Three: We didn't start the fire. Y'all started hating on homosexuals first. When you guys stop, we stop. We didn't start the fire.

Ok for the Last time I DO NOT HATE NOR AM AGAINST HOMOSEXUALS. I have family memebers that are that I love very dearly. I mean grow up really and quit trying to find some sort of way to attack christians even moredon't bother. Lyric is of the mindset "if you are not with Lyric's ideals 100% then you are the enemy.

don't bother. Lyric is of the mindset "if you are not with Lyric's ideals 100% then you are the enemy.
Oh, and like no other poster in the General Forum isn't of exactly that same mindset?
I'm the only one guilty of that mindset? Riiiiiiiiight!!

don't bother. Lyric is of the mindset "if you are not with Lyric's ideals 100% then you are the enemy.


Yeah and they call me a closed minded fool. Oh well

Oh, and like no other poster in the General Forum isn't of exactly that same mindset?
I'm the only one guilty of that mindset? Riiiiiiiiight!!
Yeah there are a few of you ... does that may it any better?

Point Number Three: We didn't start the fire. Y'all started hating on homosexuals first. When you guys stop, we stop. We didn't start the fire.

You may not have started the fire, but that doesn't mean you should throw wood on it. Why not be the bigger person and stop the hate regardless if all the Christians stop? Besides there are plenty of us Christians that are trying to get the missguided Christians to stop the hate. I don't blaim you for being bitter, but it's offensive when you assume we are all like that. I'm not going to assume all homosexuals hate Christians.

You may not have started the fire, but that doesn't mean you should throw wood on it. Why not be the bigger person and stop the hate regardless if all the Christians stop? Besides there are plenty of us Christians that are trying to get the missguided Christians to stop the hate. I don't blaim you for being bitter, but it's offensive when you assume we are all like that. I'm not going to assume all homosexuals hate Christians.

Because THEY starteed it. They need to STOP. First.
And I don't see enough evidence of the rest of you Christians doing much, if anything, to stop the misguided Christians. You are not doing enough. Because you are getting ZERO press, and you are making ZERO progress.

Because things are every bit as bad for me as they ever have been. And it is the Republicans, and the fundamentalists that I blame for it.

I'll be damned, but I am going to do what I can to take a few of them down with me! If they are going to send me down, I'm not just going to sit down, smile, shut up and like it! I'm taking some of them with me, so help me I will!

I will make their lives every bit the hell they have made mine, if I get the chance!

I haven't gotten EVEN yet. I haven't gotten my pound of flesh yet! So why should I stop. You do not get it...I WANT REVENGE!!

If I may be permitted to address the initial post for this thread, I would say that the problem is due to the idea that there is only one mindset for the propogation of Christianity: leading a person to correct understanding by refuting erroneous beliefs. This kind of propogation is useful when dealing with heretics, but when it comes to dealing with atheists and agnostics, a better way would be to lead people to correct understanding without refuting erroneous beliefs.

If one attacks the beliefs of others, they are going to immediately go on the defensive and have little interest with agreeing with you. Especially when dealing with atheists and agnostics, one often assumes what it is they believe and then attempts to refute it before verifying if the belief belongs to the person being addressed. If one seeks to simply add value to their life without appearing to take away what value they have already, one's ideas are more likely to be received well.

Actually, what I am describing are Buddhist concepts, but I think they apply to Christianity as well. Propogation of one's beliefs is indeed one of the greatest causes one can make.

More in-depth explanation: Shakabuku vs Shoju (http://www.nbaa.tv/doct_issues/study/footsteps_Nichiren.htm)

I will make their lives every bit the hell they have made mine, if I get the chance!

I haven't gotten EVEN yet. I haven't gotten my pound of flesh yet! So why should I stop. You do not get it...I WANT REVENGE!!

Well that's sure to bring things to a quick and painless conclusion. No doubt an accomodation can be easily found.

Because THEY starteed it. They need to STOP. First.
And I don't see enough evidence of the rest of you Christians doing much, if anything, to stop the misguided Christians. You are not doing enough. Because you are getting ZERO press, and you are making ZERO progress.

Because things are every bit as bad for me as they ever have been. And it is the Republicans, and the fundamentalists that I blame for it.

I'll be damned, but I am going to do what I can to take a few of them down with me! If they are going to send me down, I'm not just going to sit down, smile, shut up and like it! I'm taking some of them with me, so help me I will!

I will make their lives every bit the hell they have made mine, if I get the chance!

I haven't gotten EVEN yet. I haven't gotten my pound of flesh yet! So why should I stop. You do not get it...I WANT REVENGE!!

I'm actually being serious here. What do you want me to do? You know the media. I can stand around all I want and say Christianity is about love not hate. They don't care. As I keep saying its much more interesting to cover someone crazy like Pat Robertson then it is someone advocating something good for a change. When was the last time something positive was in the news? And their isn't much I can do to stop people from calling themselves Christians when all they are doing is using Christianity as an excuse to feel superior and hate others. It doesn't help any that the Bush administration used hatred of homosexuals to help him get elected.

Anyways, I'm open to suggestions. If you think their is something I can do to help counter the hatred then tell me. I really want it to stop, but have no idea how to fight it.

But anyway, if you continue to hate all of us, when it is only a large vocal minority of Christians that hate you, then all you will do is encourage more to hate you. You hate Christians because you have met some that show hatred to you. It works the other way around as well. Besides I don't really see how yelling at them is going to give you revenge. Or why people care so much about revenge anyway.

I'm actually being serious here. What do you want me to do? You know the media. I can stand around all I want and say Christianity is about love not hate. They don't care. As I keep saying its much more interesting to cover someone crazy like Pat Robertson then it is someone advocating something good for a change. When was the last time something positive was in the news? And their isn't much I can do to stop people from calling themselves Christians when all they are doing is using Christianity as an excuse to feel superior and hate others. It doesn't help any that the Bush administration used hatred of homosexuals to help him get elected.

Anyways, I'm open to suggestions. If you think their is something I can do to help counter the hatred then tell me. I really want it to stop, but have no idea how to fight it.

But anyway, if you continue to hate all of us, when it is only a large vocal minority of Christians that hate you, then all you will do is encourage more to hate you. You hate Christians because you have met some that show hatred to you. It works the other way around as well. Besides I don't really see how yelling at them is going to give you revenge. Or why people care so much about revenge anyway.


That is just the problem...I don't know how to fight them either!!
But, you have to understand...THESE PEOPLE ARE MURDERING ME!! Literally.

Ok, so they are not using guns or knives. Might be kinder and quicker if they did! Instead, they are murdering me slowly, through economic deprivation!

And I care about revenge, because I want to hurt them as badly as they have hurt me. Maybe THAT will teach them what it feels like, so that they will STOP. If not, at least I get to get even, and make sure I hurt them as much as they hurt me, and I at least can draw some satisfaction from that.

I am completely serious about this. I am very angry with them. You would be, too, if you felt like someone was literally TRYING to murder you...you'd be inclined to hate them, too!

That is just the problem...I don't know how to fight them either!!
But, you have to understand...THESE PEOPLE ARE MURDERING ME!! Literally.

Ok, so they are not using guns or knives. Might be kinder and quicker if they did! Instead, they are murdering me slowly, through economic deprivation!

And I care about revenge, because I want to hurt them as badly as they have hurt me. Maybe THAT will teach them what it feels like, so that they will STOP. If not, at least I get to get even, and make sure I hurt them as much as they hurt me, and I at least can draw some satisfaction from that.

I am completely serious about this. I am very angry with them. You would be, too, if you felt like someone was literally TRYING to murder you...you'd be inclined to hate them, too!

Sorry to hear that. I wish there was something I could do. There must be others going through the same thing. Maybe they can help.

I can't speak for the rest of you, but mass crucifixions of Leftists and Marxists on Christmas seems to work just fine here. Plus the kids love it.

If I may be permitted to address the initial post for this thread, I would say that the problem is due to the idea that there is only one mindset for the propogation of Christianity: leading a person to correct understanding by refuting erroneous beliefs. This kind of propogation is useful when dealing with heretics, but when it comes to dealing with atheists and agnostics, a better way would be to lead people to correct understanding without refuting erroneous beliefs.

If one attacks the beliefs of others, they are going to immediately go on the defensive and have little interest with agreeing with you. Especially when dealing with atheists and agnostics, one often assumes what it is they believe and then attempts to refute it before verifying if the belief belongs to the person being addressed. If one seeks to simply add value to their life without appearing to take away what value they have already, one's ideas are more likely to be received well.

Actually, what I am describing are Buddhist concepts, but I think they apply to Christianity as well. Propogation of one's beliefs is indeed one of the greatest causes one can make.

More in-depth explanation: Shakabuku vs Shoju (http://www.nbaa.tv/doct_issues/study/footsteps_Nichiren.htm)

Oh, they apply very much so! Apologetics instead of theology is often one of the traps I fall into. We do need to be more proactive, and the reactive will take care of itself.

Peace be with you! :)

That is just the problem...I don't know how to fight them either!!
But, you have to understand...THESE PEOPLE ARE MURDERING ME!! Literally.

Ok, so they are not using guns or knives. Might be kinder and quicker if they did! Instead, they are murdering me slowly, through economic deprivation!

And I care about revenge, because I want to hurt them as badly as they have hurt me. Maybe THAT will teach them what it feels like, so that they will STOP. If not, at least I get to get even, and make sure I hurt them as much as they hurt me, and I at least can draw some satisfaction from that.

I am completely serious about this. I am very angry with them. You would be, too, if you felt like someone was literally TRYING to murder you...you'd be inclined to hate them, too!

Lyric, what's happening with you? :(

Can you go into detail?

Another thing that bothers me...If we are to point out a sin..and if we point that its wrong then we are seen as bigots or prejudice against those people.Grant it there are some people that actually do promote hate, but like the case in philly were a few preachers were arrested for holding signs that said homosexuality is a sin. they had a permit to protest, but yet they were arrested for "hate crimes". How is preaching the word of God promoting hate?

How is the world better than previous times? We have more death and disease, poverty, famine and etc... There are people who are open satanists.
and so forth. Now i am not perfect by anymeans. But there needs to be change in the church get the flesh out and let the spirit in to its wonders.


We would revive the church like a gardener does with a garden. When there are weeds that choke out the life supple we must pluck them. We must water the plants and let the Son shine down to help it grow into something full of fruit(not gay fruit either, biblical refrence).
wow..umm d00d, you are creepy.... :eek: you realize, you aren't the only one that is right in the spirituality department, dont you?

Oh, and like no other poster in the General Forum isn't of exactly that same mindset?
I'm the only one guilty of that mindset? Riiiiiiiiight!!
Lyric if you want to debate religion vs homosexuality go start a thread on it! Your attitude is pathetic and has nothing to do with the topic of this thread and NO SWEARING.

what are we debating right now im too lazy to read? :confused:

In response to the initial question, The Church went wrong when the majority of christians became blinded by zeal. When the focus shifted from the teachings of christ to the elimination of sin (that is to say, 5 minutes after Jesus died), and any other things considered 'wrong' by the majority, the way was open for pride. This is, of course, conjecture, and i apologize for my phrasing it as a fact.

Because THEY starteed it. They need to STOP. First.
And I don't see enough evidence of the rest of you Christians doing much, if anything, to stop the misguided Christians. You are not doing enough. Because you are getting ZERO press, and you are making ZERO progress.

Because things are every bit as bad for me as they ever have been. And it is the Republicans, and the fundamentalists that I blame for it.

I'll be damned, but I am going to do what I can to take a few of them down with me! If they are going to send me down, I'm not just going to sit down, smile, shut up and like it! I'm taking some of them with me, so help me I will!

I will make their lives every bit the hell they have made mine, if I get the chance!

I haven't gotten EVEN yet. I haven't gotten my pound of flesh yet! So why should I stop. You do not get it...I WANT REVENGE!!

People like you frighten me to no end.

That is just the problem...I don't know how to fight them either!!
But, you have to understand...THESE PEOPLE ARE MURDERING ME!! Literally.

Ok, so they are not using guns or knives. Might be kinder and quicker if they did! Instead, they are murdering me slowly, through economic deprivation!

And I care about revenge, because I want to hurt them as badly as they have hurt me. Maybe THAT will teach them what it feels like, so that they will STOP. If not, at least I get to get even, and make sure I hurt them as much as they hurt me, and I at least can draw some satisfaction from that.

I am completely serious about this. I am very angry with them. You would be, too, if you felt like someone was literally TRYING to murder you...you'd be inclined to hate them, too!
Sounds like you have issues you need to work out in therapy and then with certain specific individuals! You don't sight any specific problems that the Christian community as a whole has done to you. How could the Christian community be causing you economic deprivation of any sort.

Lyric, please just shut up. -__- Take your whiney bullshit to a topic for it.

A few questions to all my brothers and sisters in Christ;

Where have we went wrong? How did we let the world get so bad? Why have we let the church become part intertwined witht the flesh? We need to figure out soon and revive the church in the name Of the Lord our Saviour :)


One simple solution....end the Catholic Chruch or at least get rid of those fools in the Vatican, let women be priests, let priests marry. Open the Vatican Library-I know I'm just limiting this to the Catholic Chruch!

or make me God! :D

Another thing that bothers me...If we are to point out a sin..and if we point that its wrong then we are seen as bigots or prejudice against those people.Grant it there are some people that actually do promote hate, but like the case in philly were a few preachers were arrested for holding signs that said homosexuality is a sin. they had a permit to protest, but yet they were arrested for "hate crimes". How is preaching the word of God promoting hate?

Actually I think that's part of the problem. What posses them to point out everyone's sin? The old remove the plank from your own eye verse come to mind. Or when Christ said "He who is without sin cast the first stone." Sorry, I don't have the time to look those up.

Besides does a preacher standing around saying that you are sinning and that. you are going to hell really do anything to stop the sin or bring people to Christ? All it does is upset the target group.

And again, if people think we can actually stop sin their theology is really messed up. We should combat sin, but we have to be sensible about it. Yelling at people won't cause them to stop.

And one final point. These people have clearly lost focus. Christ says the greatest comandment is to love God and the second is to love others. So what this means is you are to first approach someone out of love. You are to show them the love of God. Then if the person wants to stop sinning you are to help them. There isn't a whole lot you can do if the person doesn't want to stop, except maybe arrest them (not saying we should arrest homosexuals, saying that certain sinners like rappists can be arrested). You would have to convince someone to stop. But remember stoping people from doing certain things isn't our primary goal. We should be pro-active in our countering sin. Instead of fighting sin with laws and words we should fight sin through action. When someone acts out in hate, don't yell at them for hating. Fight back with love. People go to get abortions, don't yell at them for it. Be there to support them when they get pregnant so that they don't seek abortions out of despiration. That's what Christians should do. Love first, fight sin second. And find ways to use love to fight sin.
[/rant]

In response to the initial question, The Church went wrong when the majority of christians became blinded by zeal. When the focus shifted from the teachings of christ to the elimination of sin (that is to say, 5 minutes after Jesus died), and any other things considered 'wrong' by the majority, the way was open for pride. This is, of course, conjecture, and i apologize for my phrasing it as a fact.

I agree, see my post above this one

Because THEY starteed it. They need to STOP. First.
And I don't see enough evidence of the rest of you Christians doing much, if anything, to stop the misguided Christians. You are not doing enough. Because you are getting ZERO press, and you are making ZERO progress.

Because things are every bit as bad for me as they ever have been. And it is the Republicans, and the fundamentalists that I blame for it.

I'll be damned, but I am going to do what I can to take a few of them down with me! If they are going to send me down, I'm not just going to sit down, smile, shut up and like it! I'm taking some of them with me, so help me I will!

I will make their lives every bit the hell they have made mine, if I get the chance!

I haven't gotten EVEN yet. I haven't gotten my pound of flesh yet! So why should I stop. You do not get it...I WANT REVENGE!!


Obviously, you've been to the wrong church. No one in my church is "sending you down". Nor are we walking around talking bad about you, or saying you're a sinner, or you're going to hell. Nor are we intolerant of gays or any other sexual orientation.

If you knew our pastor, you would know how accepting we are - and how we're not trying to change you, or put you in a hole.

And what will you get in return for all that violence? Nothing.

Speaking as someone who has killed in combat before, I can tell you that it is not as satisfying as one might imagine.

If you won't seek professional help for your anger, then I suggest that at least you ask your physician to prescribe some Xanax for you so you can calm down.

The world is not out to get you - and the people in the church I attend most certainly are not out to get you - nor are we trying to convert you or bother you about your sexual orientation or politics.

There are gay and transgendered people in our congregation. Happy, and not bothered by anyone - no one in our church is telling them to change.

My son is gay. Do you think I would take him to a place that's hostile to the way he is? He's happy there, too. Unlike most parents, we don't MAKE our children go to church. They go only if they want to. And they usually do want to go. It's their choice.

Lyric, please just shut up. -__- Take your whiney bullshit to a topic for it.

Get off Lyric's case, please, everyone. From the optimists' side, there's a lot of stress caused by Christian actions and there doesn't need to be anymore. From the pessimists' side, you don't need to give a hater more fodder.

A few questions to all my brothers and sisters in Christ;

Where have we went wrong? How did we let the world get so bad? Why have we let the church become part intertwined witht the flesh? We need to figure out soon and revive the church in the name Of the Lord our Saviour :)


IMO, the Church went wrong as soon as it quit focusing on GOD and started focusing on political survival. Churches need to keep up membership, and if the majority of your membership doesn't want to include gay or transgendered people, what do you think is going to happen in that church? It is more expedient for them to ban that group than for the pastors, reverend's or what-have-you to actually try to teach the parishioners that you only do unto others what you would have done unto you.

IMO, the Church went wrong as soon as it quit focusing on GOD and started focusing on political survival. Churches need to keep up membership, and if the majority of your membership doesn't want to include gay or transgendered people, what do you think is going to happen in that church? It is more expedient for them to ban that group than for the pastors, reverend's or what-have-you to actually try to teach the parishioners that you only do unto others what you would have done unto you.
allergy meds have prevented me from understanding any of that.
can you reword for me?

I can tell you what's wrong with the Church (not all churches just the ones getting the most press). They forgot to not be a stumbling block for their brethren. They forgot not to judge. They forgot to learn and obey the teachings of JESUS CHRIST above all else. They forgot that to treat others as you would be treated is the sum of the Law and the Prophets. They forgot to be loving and humble rather than judgemental and dictatorial. They forgot what Jesus said about those who pray in on street corners and in churches instead of in closets.

As Jesus said, you are welcome to shout your prayers out to the world and to have a hollier-than-thou attitude. You can show the world how 'righteous' you are. You can force your beliefs on others. And you have gotten your reward here on earth. Me? I'll stay here praying in the closet and treating my fellow man with respect and washing their feet. I may not be rewarded on earth for such actions, but I'm not really looking for earthly rewards, now am I?

allergy meds have prevented me from understanding any of that.
can you reword for me?

She said they are operating on supply and demand. People don't want to have faith if the people who don't are having more fun than them. 'It's not fair!' So the churchgoers require their churches to attack those who aren't in church and call them bad people and tell them how they'll all BURN. They don't want to hear about humility and tolerance because that actually requires them to BE better people than most rather just SAY they are better than most.

Okay, I added to her point. Her point was basically that churches are trying to stay around rather than preach the true word of the Bible. So they teach what they think will garner them the most power and the highest membership. That appears to be hate your fellow man and tell them they're gonna burn. Unfortunate message that is, since it goes against every teaching of Christ.

She said they are operating on supply and demand. People don't want to have faith if the people who don't are having more fun than them. 'It's not fair!' So the churchgoers require their churches to attack those who aren't in church and call them bad people and tell them how they'll all BURN. They don't want to hear about humility and tolerance because that actually requires them to BE better people than most rather just SAY they are better than most.

Okay, I added to her point. Her point was basically that churches are trying to stay around rather than preach the true word of the Bible. So they teach what they think will garner them the most power and the highest membership. That appears to be hate your fellow man and tell them they're gonna burn. Unfortunate message that is, since it goes against every teaching of Christ.
okay I get it now. yeah. that all kinda goes back to my point of the church becoming lazy, too lazy to stand up and demand accounability from those who represent us, we have grown apathetic in a sense too, not really caring that there are people who are dragging the church through the mud with thier hateful attitudes, we are too lazy to stand up and do what we know is right. but I guess some of us are too lazy to realize what is right too, and have become too focused on things that have nothing to do with what we are supposed to be about. (like how many show up for church, or how much is in the church bank account.)

why do christiansthink THEY WENT WRONG? surely we all did, why treat non christians diferently? i dont think there should be any difference in the type of person someone is when religion is taken into aount. what annoys me about many people who do happen to be christian is their short sited ness

A few questions to all my brothers and sisters in Christ;

Where have we went wrong? How did we let the world get so bad? Why have we let the church become part intertwined witht the flesh? We need to figure out soon and revive the church in the name Of the Lord our Saviour :)

What's the problem with flesh? Christ was of flesh, God created us as flesh - who are you, or we, to denigrate God's manifestation apparently unto his own likeness?

why do christiansthink THEY WENT WRONG? surely we all did, why treat non christians diferently? i dont think there should be any difference in the type of person someone is when religion is taken into aount. what annoys me about many people who do happen to be christian is their short sited ness
I think (or at least the way I decided to take it) was the 'we' in the where did we go wrong was Christians, and the 'it' in how did we let it get so bad? was the church.

besides if we ever do make any comment at all about the wrongs of the world in general we get jumped all over for judging. ;)

why do christiansthink THEY WENT WRONG? surely we all did, why treat non christians diferently? i dont think there should be any difference in the type of person someone is when religion is taken into aount. what annoys me about many people who do happen to be christian is their short sited ness

The OP is talking about problems and how members of the Church should work to make whatever difference possible. Why wouldn't he focus on the people of the Church to fix it? You should commend personal accountability not attack it.

What's the problem with flesh? Christ was of flesh, God created us as flesh - who are you, or we, to denigrate God's manifestation apparently unto his own likeness?

it is refering to some of Paul's writings in which he is comparing legalism to grace. He speaks about how circumsicion was the old covenant and that Jesus died making a new promise, and how people who stay with the 'old law' are
circumcised 'in the flesh' but people who accept Christ are circumcised of the spirit. I believe he was talking about legalism in the church. or some people equate living 'in the flesh' with not relying on God but relying on your self.

What's the problem with flesh? Christ was of flesh, God created us as flesh - who are you, or we, to denigrate God's manifestation apparently unto his own likeness?

Wow. Okay are you just trying to attack anything you can find? Do you know what the difference between flesh and spirit in reference to what the OP was saying? Flesh means issues of the earth and Spirit means issues that transcend the earth. The Bible is clear that issues of the Spirity should trump issues of the Flesh. It's not to say issues of the Flesh don't exist or shouldn't be addressed, just not at the expense of the Spirit. Basically, it means I would be willing to buy food from you but if I had no money I wouldn't murder you and take your food and money so I won't starve. The first is addressing the Flesh, the second is forgoing the Spirit to address the Flesh.

The Church was created to lead people on issues of the Spirit, there are places and other ways to deal with the Flesh. They are meant to be seperate. If the Church spends all of its time worrying about its place in the world and not about leading its members in the spirit, it's not a very effective church, is it?

A few questions to all my brothers and sisters in Christ;

Where have we went wrong? How did we let the world get so bad? Why have we let the church become part intertwined witht the flesh? We need to figure out soon and revive the church in the name Of the Lord our Saviour :)

What is wrong with flesh? Christ was flesh; why denigrate that which God manifested as flesh, apparently in his own likeness?

What is wrong with flesh? Christ was flesh; why denigrate that which God manifested as flesh, apparently in his own likeness?

I dub thee, Sir Troll. Rise and take your rightful places among the Knights of Threadus Interruptus.

I dub thee, Sir Troll. Rise and take your rightful places among the Knights of Threadus Interruptus.
nah its a fair and valid point in the right place, why not say something inteligent that proves im being a troll?

nah its a fair and valid point in the right place, why not say something inteligent that proves im being a troll?

No, it's really not a point at all and shows little or no understanding of the original post or its intent. I disagree with the poster, but you are simply stating the same things over and over hoping to upset someone. You responded to the first post THREE times now. It's trollish and spam.

Try reading the thread, reading the responses to your posts and making points instead of uneducated posts using 'flesh' in a different way than original poster or condemning people who believe in personal responsibility.

NOTE: I love it when people accuse me of not saying anything intelligent while spelling intelligent incorrectly. It's amusing.

Okay, I added to her point. Her point was basically that churches are trying to stay around rather than preach the true word of the Bible. So they teach what they think will garner them the most power and the highest membership. That appears to be hate your fellow man and tell them they're gonna burn. Unfortunate message that is, since it goes against every teaching of Christ.

umm yeah! What he said... :)

Lyric, what's happening with you? :(

Can you go into detail?
Simple. I'm a member of a very-hated minority group. "Christians" absolutely fucking hate me and wish me dead. So, they discriminate agianst you in employment, denying you a chance to earn a livelihood, and thus cause your slow and painful death by starvation.

No, they don't get to literally murder me with a gun or a knife like I'm sure they would like to...but they see me suffering and they laugh at me...and they congratulate themselves on increasing my suffering.

and my own government won't stand up to these people to stop them from discriminating. all's I want is a goddamn decent job! I've been without one now for a year and a half. ain't much longer I can go on like this.

Another thing that bothers me...If we are to point out a sin..and if we point that its wrong then we are seen as bigots or prejudice against those people.Grant it there are some people that actually do promote hate, but like the case in philly were a few preachers were arrested for holding signs that said homosexuality is a sin. they had a permit to protest, but yet they were arrested for "hate crimes". How is preaching the word of God promoting hate?

because your actual purpose in doing so is to terrorize and demoralize people that you have chosen as your enemies, and you are attempting to turn even more of society against people that you chose as enemies. Why can't you just leave us the FDUCK alone if you don't like us??

And dopn't give me shit that "you love us, just not what we do" That is the biggest fucking cop-out there ever was. You do NOT treat people that you love the way you Christians treat US. So don't fucking waste bandwidth telling me how much you love me. Your actions speak louder than your words, and I know that you Christians hate me and my people.

People like you frighten me to no end.

Yeah...well that is what a lifetime of being oppressed, kept down, disenfranchised, and dehumanized does to you. You can blame the "Christians" for it.

Sounds like you have issues you need to work out in therapy and then with certain specific individuals! You don't sight any specific problems that the Christian community as a whole has done to you. How could the Christian community be causing you economic deprivation of any sort.
By continuing to promote and foster the seeds of hatred, they play their part in this. don't pretend that you don't know this.

If the Christians would just SHUT UP life would be a lot better for everyone.

Yeah...well that is what a lifetime of being oppressed, kept down, disenfranchised, and dehumanized does to you. You can blame the "Christians" for it.

Remember that it's not the only religion that has it in for you. Remember radical Islam.

Actually I think that's part of the problem. What posses them to point out everyone's sin? The old remove the plank from your own eye verse come to mind. Or when Christ said "He who is without sin cast the first stone." Sorry, I don't have the time to look those up.

Besides does a preacher standing around saying that you are sinning and that. you are going to hell really do anything to stop the sin or bring people to Christ? All it does is upset the target group.

And again, if people think we can actually stop sin their theology is really messed up. We should combat sin, but we have to be sensible about it. Yelling at people won't cause them to stop.

And one final point. These people have clearly lost focus. Christ says the greatest comandment is to love God and the second is to love others. So what this means is you are to first approach someone out of love. You are to show them the love of God. Then if the person wants to stop sinning you are to help them. There isn't a whole lot you can do if the person doesn't want to stop, except maybe arrest them (not saying we should arrest homosexuals, saying that certain sinners like rappists can be arrested). You would have to convince someone to stop. But remember stoping people from doing certain things isn't our primary goal. We should be pro-active in our countering sin. Instead of fighting sin with laws and words we should fight sin through action. When someone acts out in hate, don't yell at them for hating. Fight back with love. People go to get abortions, don't yell at them for it. Be there to support them when they get pregnant so that they don't seek abortions out of despiration. That's what Christians should do. Love first, fight sin second. And find ways to use love to fight sin.
[/rant]


Damn, you are hitting the nail on the head.
Let me try another thing, here...which I read somewhere, and also seemed to hit the nail on the head...

God wants us humans to "come boldly" to Him, right? He does not want us coerced into coming, or dragged before Him against our wills. He wants us to "come boldly" and of our own free will.

Is everyone with me so far? Everyone on the same page? Are we in agreement so far?

OKAY then....

If the only image of God you are ever exposed to is the image of God as an auditor before whom your books never balance...a teacher whose class you dread, or as a parent who abuses you but never AFFIRMS you...well, you are not loikely to "come boldly." In fact, you are more likely to not come at all!!

Now, really think about that. Think about the way you Christians come across to the people you would "save." Fact is, your approach sucks. You are lousy at it. All you do is piss off the target group, and turn them away.

But, you don't REALLY care, I suspect, because "saving" us is not your true objective, is it? No, your true objective is to beat your chest about how morally superior, and how much BETTER you are than everyone else. Your true objective is to CRUSH those things that offend your sensibilities, and if you crush the person along with it, you don't give a crap, do you?

Look into your own heart, and be honest with yourselves...if you have the guts. I already know you haven't the guts to be publicaly honest with your REAL feelings about people like me. We sicken you, don't we? You think us freaks who do not deserve to live, don't you? Don't be honest with me or with the public...we already know. Be honest with YOURSELF, and you will know I am right.

I can tell you what's wrong with the Church (not all churches just the ones getting the most press). They forgot to not be a stumbling block for their brethren. They forgot not to judge. They forgot to learn and obey the teachings of JESUS CHRIST above all else. They forgot that to treat others as you would be treated is the sum of the Law and the Prophets. They forgot to be loving and humble rather than judgemental and dictatorial. They forgot what Jesus said about those who pray in on street corners and in churches instead of in closets.

As Jesus said, you are welcome to shout your prayers out to the world and to have a hollier-than-thou attitude. You can show the world how 'righteous' you are. You can force your beliefs on others. And you have gotten your reward here on earth. Me? I'll stay here praying in the closet and treating my fellow man with respect and washing their feet. I may not be rewarded on earth for such actions, but I'm not really looking for earthly rewards, now am I?


First time I have ever agreed with anything YOU had to say. Listen to him, guys. When I say that what this guy has to say is of value, that should really mean something...if you understood the dynamics of the relationship that exists between us.

Damn, you are hitting the nail on the head.
Let me try another thing, here...which I read somewhere, and also seemed to hit the nail on the head...

God wants us humans to "come boldly" to Him, right? He does not want us coerced into coming, or dragged before Him against our wills. He wants us to "come boldly" and of our own free will.

Is everyone with me so far? Everyone on the same page? Are we in agreement so far?

OKAY then....

If the only image of God you are ever exposed to is the image of God as an auditor before whom your books never balance...a teacher whose class you dread, or as a parent who abuses you but never AFFIRMS you...well, you are not loikely to "come boldly." In fact, you are more likely to not come at all!!

Now, really think about that. Think about the way you Christians come across to the people you would "save." Fact is, your approach sucks. You are lousy at it. All you do is piss off the target group, and turn them away.

But, you don't REALLY care, I suspect, because "saving" us is not your true objective, is it? No, your true objective is to beat your chest about how morally superior, and how much BETTER you are than everyone else. Your true objective is to CRUSH those things that offend your sensibilities, and if you crush the person along with it, you don't give a crap, do you?

Look into your own heart, and be honest with yourselves...if you have the guts. I already know you haven't the guts to be publicaly honest with your REAL feelings about people like me. We sicken you, don't we? You think us freaks who do not deserve to live, don't you? Don't be honest with me or with the public...we already know. Be honest with YOURSELF, and you will know I am right.


Nope, you don't sicken me. And you're certainly not describing my church, or its members. We're not morally superior, nor do we crush anyone. There are gay and transgendered people in our congregation and they are welcome there.

If the only image of God you are ever exposed to is the image of God as an auditor before whom your books never balance...a teacher whose class you dread, or as a parent who abuses you but never AFFIRMS you...well, you are not loikely to "come boldly." In fact, you are more likely to not come at all!!

That God is not the one we see in our church. You must have been thinking of someone else.

First time I have ever agreed with anything YOU had to say. Listen to him, guys. When I say that what this guy has to say is of value, that should really mean something...if you understood the dynamics of the relationship that exists between us.

Now that's not true. You've agreed with me lots of times. Want me to quote them?

The fact is the only thing we disagree on is that you feel it is okay to say things like 'you Christians' or 'ALL men are pigs' or 'it's straights that do this to us' like each of those groups is homogenous when you and I both know they aren't. You know there is an ocean of difference between myself and your brother and father. You know there is an ocean of difference between Christians like me, true Christians, and the one's you're describing. You know there is an ocean of difference between straight men who make no destinction between the quality of treatment people deserve that is based on sexuality or gender identity and the straight men that would destroy you, murder you, dehumanize you, marginalize you. I won't be lumped with those people, because I have more in common with you than I do with them. The things I have in common with you are based on how I choose to think and whom I choose to love. The things I have in common with them are either based on gross generalizations or things I was born with and can't help. I think the things I CHOOSE are far more important, and I hope that you agree. We disagree on one point, how you address the discrimination in the world and agree on many, many more. Don't let that one point make it seem like we're enemies.

Remember that it's not the only religion that has it in for you. Remember radical Islam.
Radical Islam has no real influence over the domestic policies of this country. Or over it's culture.
Yeah, radical Islam sucks, too...but, by dint of the fact that I am in AMERICA...Radical Islam has not done nearly as much to hurt me as "Christianity" has.

Nope, you don't sicken me. And you're certainly not describing my church, or its members. We're not morally superior, nor do we crush anyone. There are gay and transgendered people in our congregation and they are welcome there.



That God is not the one we see in our church. You must have been thinking of someone else.

Well, MOST christians are that way. Or it sure as hell SEEMS that way, anyway. They are vocal, they are loud, and their message of hate gets loads of media.
What are you Christians doing to SHOUT DOWN those who are twisting your religion then? If you are all sitting back and doing nothing to stop them...then you might as well be agreeing with them.

If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the prolem. So which is it for you?

Now that's not true. You've agreed with me lots of times. Want me to quote them?

The fact is the only thing we disagree on is that you feel it is okay to say things like 'you Christians' or 'ALL men are pigs' or 'it's straights that do this to us' like each of those groups is homogenous when you and I both know they aren't. You know there is an ocean of difference between myself and your brother and father. You know there is an ocean of difference between Christians like me, true Christians, and the one's you're describing. You know there is an ocean of difference between straight men who make no destinction between the quality of treatment people deserve that is based on sexuality or gender identity and the straight men that would destroy you, murder you, dehumanize you, marginalize you. I won't be lumped with those people, because I have more in common with you than I do with them. The things I have in common with you are based on how I choose to think and whom I choose to love. The things I have in common with them are either based on gross generalizations or things I was born with and can't help. I think the things I CHOOSE are far more important, and I hope that you agree. We disagree on one point, how you address the discrimination in the world and agree on many, many more. Don't let that one point make it seem like we're enemies.


Much as I am angered at you, and remain so...I have given you a compliment. Don't push it. Just take it and run with it.

Now that's not true. You've agreed with me lots of times. Want me to quote them?

The fact is the only thing we disagree on is that you feel it is okay to say things like 'you Christians' or 'ALL men are pigs' or 'it's straights that do this to us' like each of those groups is homogenous when you and I both know they aren't. You know there is an ocean of difference between myself and your brother and father. You know there is an ocean of difference between Christians like me, true Christians, and the one's you're describing. You know there is an ocean of difference between straight men who make no destinction between the quality of treatment people deserve that is based on sexuality or gender identity and the straight men that would destroy you, murder you, dehumanize you, marginalize you. I won't be lumped with those people, because I have more in common with you than I do with them. The things I have in common with you are based on how I choose to think and whom I choose to love. The things I have in common with them are either based on gross generalizations or things I was born with and can't help. I think the things I CHOOSE are far more important, and I hope that you agree. We disagree on one point, how you address the discrimination in the world and agree on many, many more. Don't let that one point make it seem like we're enemies.


And, just by the way...I think that, having suffered from discrimination far more than you ever will...I have more of a right to my interpretation of discrimination. and the way I address it.
and it still seems to me that MOST Christians are guilty of it.

It is precisely why I refer to my own self as a Unitarian Christian. Because I refuse to be confused with the rest of those fakers. The ones who SAY they are Christian, and do not ACT Christian.

I haven't gotten EVEN yet. I haven't gotten my pound of flesh yet! So why should I stop. You do not get it...I WANT REVENGE!!

Oh, whenever I think of a lovable, sympathetic character whose cause is noble, non-loony and worthy of support, I think "Shylock".

:rolleyes:

Yeah...now there's the big shocker!! Pick up your lower jaws now, people...that's right...I am a Christian. A Unitarian Christian. And I am railing on the mainstream Christian church because you all have gone so far astray as to be something I no longer wish to be associated with.

That is why I still have a relationship with Jesus, and have washed my hands of the Church that claims His name.

Much as I am angered at you, and remain so...I have given you a compliment. Don't push it. Just take it and run with it.

Telling me I'm right when we all know I am is as much a compliment to you as it is to me since it says that you recognize the TRUTH when you hear it ;)

Oh, whenever I think of a lovable, sympathetic character whose cause is noble, non-loony and worthy of support, I think "Shylock".

:rolleyes:

Shylock was one of the clearest-thinking characters in all of Shakesphere!

Telling me I'm right when we all know I am is as much a compliment to you as it is to me since it says that you recognize the TRUTH when you hear it ;)

Yeah? Too bad more CHRISTIANS don't recognize the truth when THEY hear it!!

Shylock was one of the clearest-thinking characters in all of Shakesphere!

Yes, the creature that allowed himself to be corrupted and turned into a hateful and petty tormentor by his own tormentors, lowering himself past their level and rendering them his betters.

Yeah, clear-thinking right there!

Well, MOST christians are that way. Or it sure as hell SEEMS that way, anyway. They are vocal, they are loud, and their message of hate gets loads of media.
What are you Christians doing to SHOUT DOWN those who are twisting your religion then? If you are all sitting back and doing nothing to stop them...then you might as well be agreeing with them.

If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the prolem. So which is it for you?

We're Pentacostal Christians. We do our best to spread a better word. And provide a better example.

But we're not in charge of everyone else, as you may already know.

Yes, the creature that allowed himself to be corrupted and turned into a hateful and petty tormentor by his own tormentors, lowering himself past their level and rendering them his betters.

Yeah, clear-thinking right there!

At least I was able to RELATE to Shylock! He's the only guy in all of Shakesphere who ever seemed like a REAL PERSON.

We're Pentacostal Christians. We do our best to spread a better word. And provide a better example.

But we're not in charge of everyone else, as you may already know.
I'll try not to hold that against you. but my one and only experience with Pentacostal Christians was not good. It resulted in a death threat.

A friend of mine brought me to her Pentacostal church once. Being an absolute idiot at the time...I believed her that they would be nice to me...and I went.

Two days later, she got a note in her mailbox, cut out of magazines, like a death threat often is...and the note said, "Tell the freak not to come back."

That's my one and only experience with Pentacostals. And if that is your definition of spreading a better word, and providing a better example, then you scare the hell out of me.

WHy can't anyone just live and let live? Surely it's possible to be moral and nice and good etc without being a Christian (likewise it's also possible to be nice and be Christian)

At least I was able to RELATE to Shylock! He's the only guy in all of Shakesphere who ever seemed like a REAL PERSON.

Before having met you, I wouldn't have agreed, but I guess there are people like him out there.

And, just by the way...I think that, having suffered from discrimination far more than you ever will...I have more of a right to my interpretation of discrimination. and the way I address it.
and it still seems to me that MOST Christians are guilty of it.

It is precisely why I refer to my own self as a Unitarian Christian. Because I refuse to be confused with the rest of those fakers. The ones who SAY they are Christian, and do not ACT Christian.

There aren't a bunch of groups of people placed together by how much discrimination they've suffered. And they are not justified based on what group they fit into. There are only two groups those who tolerate discrimination based on how you were born rather than who you individually are and those that don't. We all choose which group we fall into. If one justify, support or defend discriminating against anyone of any group based on broad generalizations or the circumstances of their birth then s/he is a part of the group I am fighting. With bigotry and intolerance there is truly only a with us or against us policy.

People who claim they don't take part but laugh at the jokes or sit uncomfortably and don't speak up as someone is dismissed, dehumanized, demeaned because they are elderly, the wrong skin color, the wrong sex, the wrong sexuality, the wrong sexual identity, or broad sweeping generalizations about their religion,etc. are part of the problem.

I know people who say, you can't fix those people so what's the point? The point is that people are being hurt by those statements. Every single time they're made, people are being hurt. And it doesn't matter how much discrimination the person making the comment has suffered, or how justified they feel, or how intense their hatred for that group as a whole is. It's wrong every time it's used and the onus is everyone who wishes to end bigotry and discrimination based on birth or sweeping generalizations to stand up every time they witness it.

I don't care if it's a mod here, or you, Lyric, or GWB or my mother or my boss or my girlfriend or Mother Theresa, I'm going to say something EVERY TIME I see people attacking an entire group because of the actions of some of that group or because of things they were born with. EVERY TIME. And if you continue to do so and continue to feel justified in doing so I am going to continue to call you on it. You and everyone else. Discriminating against people because they do or do not have a penis, because they are or are not attracted to people who have penii, because they do or do not feel inside the way they were born outside will not ever be excused, defended, tolerated or justified by me. I will not accept that discrimination because someone is a transgender is or is not a transgender is okay. To do anything else is hypocrisy plain and simple and is to be a part of the problem. As you said, are you a part of the problem or a part of the solution? If you're justifying discrimination based on sex, race, ethnicity, religion, sexuality or gender identity, you are part of the problem.

We're Pentacostal Christians. We do our best to spread a better word. And provide a better example.

But we're not in charge of everyone else, as you may already know.

You (meaning your church) appear to me to be a part of the solution. The problem is which is more likely to make the news -

"Today even more Christians were tolerant of their fellow man"
"Today in a protest, four Christians beat an abortion doctor within an inch of his life"

I believe the question was 'where did it go wrong? I dont believe christians have gone wrong. But its followers have lost thier identities. The church is attacked, on a daily basis, through science, opposing religions and those of a seculer mindset. Within those confines, its followers have been forced to leave the church in order to chase a new God, it being one of money.

because your actual purpose in doing so is to terrorize and demoralize people that you have chosen as your enemies, and you are attempting to turn even more of society against people that you chose as enemies. Why can't you just leave us the FDUCK alone if you don't like us??

And dopn't give me shit that "you love us, just not what we do" That is the biggest fucking cop-out there ever was. You do NOT treat people that you love the way you Christians treat US. So don't fucking waste bandwidth telling me how much you love me. Your actions speak louder than your words, and I know that you Christians hate me and my people.


See once again you stereotype christians, thus really bringing trifle on yourself. You need to give up the whole "every one hates me, i am so mistreated" spell. Everyone has it bad. Get over it. Sure, there have been bad christians, as there have been bad people in every religion or group of any sort. It is shameful upon your part to continuously bash this group based on your rash generalizations. Another thing; how can you tell me if I love people or what not? You do not know me! Do you realize that I am about to give up my college education to take up a mission in Africa? You need to put your foot in your mouth and rethink you foolish statements. :)

Actually I think that's part of the problem. What posses them to point out everyone's sin? The old remove the plank from your own eye verse come to mind. Or when Christ said "He who is without sin cast the first stone." Sorry, I don't have the time to look those up.

Besides does a preacher standing around saying that you are sinning and that. you are going to hell really do anything to stop the sin or bring people to Christ? All it does is upset the target group.
[/rant]


There is a difference between damning someone and saying hey you shouldn't do that, it could have some dire consuquences on your life. and if you look at it, if you obey most of God's word you should have for the most part a safe and productive life. Coincidence? Nope. an example of this would be the pact between abraham and God through circumcision. Did you know that those not circumcised have like a 98% chance of getting cancer in the penis? Then what about not sleeping around/marriage before sex.. thats the only real way to stop the spread of Stds. Im just saying pointing out the consequence of sin and pointing out sin is very sensible and is not hate..And yes love is the most important thing. Thats why we preach, because we love our fellow humans and wish only for the best for them.

God helps those who help themselves. ;)

There is a difference between damning someone and saying hey you shouldn't do that, it could have some dire consuquences on your life. and if you look at it, if you obey most of God's word you should have for the most part a safe and productive life. Coincidence? Nope. an example of this would be the pact between abraham and God through circumcision. Did you know that those not circumcised have like a 98% chance of getting cancer in the penis? Then what about not sleeping around/marriage before sex.. thats the only real way to stop the spread of Stds. Im just saying pointing out the consequence of sin and pointing out sin is very sensible and is not hate..And yes love is the most important thing. Thats why we preach, because we love our fellow humans and wish only for the best for them.

False. Can I see the study that shows the 98% chance of cancer of the penis? Do you know that most countries don't do routine male genital mutilation? Are you suggesting that most of Africa's men have a 98% chance of getting cancer? Quit making up arguments.

And the fact that most of "God's laws" coincide with man's needs actually negates the argument that they are divine rather than just laws made by men. Men thought that disease was evil so things that made you sick, like pork, like not being circumcised (back then, not now), like washing your hands, etc.

You know who didn't agree with your argument? Jesus. He pointed out that what was unclean on earth (what caused disease) had nothing to do with what makes us unclean to God. Matthew 15. Learn it, love it, live it and stop arguing against it.

http://www.doctorndtv.com/news/detailnews.asp?id=314

This was the only reliable source i could find..I saw the original on tv at one point on the health channle or soemthing....this doesn't say the 98% but still gives a feel for how much it does reduce the risk or cancer and other disease

http://www.doctorndtv.com/news/detailnews.asp?id=314

This was the only reliable source i could find..I saw the original on tv at one point on the health channle or soemthing....this doesn't say the 98% but still gives a feel for how much it does reduce the risk or cancer and other disease

First of all I noticed they didn't link to the original study, which is generally necessary to figure out the validity of the data. Second, the AMA disagrees that there is any medical reason to give a circumcision. Third, a 20% chance versus 6% chance of HPV is hardly the same as a 98% chance of cancer. Fourth, to determine if it is actually medically worthwhile it has to be examined if the number of preventions (of cancer and whatever) is worth the number of problems created by the surgery itself (shocking, I know but mutilation actually has some drawbacks).

So you admit you were making up the 98% cancer thing? Good to know. I wonder if God handing down any laws about deception...

First of all I noticed they didn't link to the original study, which is generally necessary to figure out the validity of the data. Second, the AMA disagrees that there is any medical reason to give a circumcision. Third, a 20% chance versus 6% chance of HPV is hardly the same as a 98% chance of cancer. Fourth, to determine if it is actually medically worthwhile it has to be examined if the number of preventions (of cancer and whatever) is worth the number of problems created by the surgery itself (shocking, I know but mutilation actually has some drawbacks).

So you admit you were making up the 98% cancer thing? Good to know. I wonder if God handing down any laws about deception...


Oh yeah since i go around making crap up all the time, Read my comment again, i said originally I saw it on the health channel as 98%. Thats a very reliable source. this was the only other one that i google that wasn't just opinions. But anywho the original point God's word(law) has a point, it is to keep us out of trouble. To provide a better life. Just like our own laws do.

There is a difference between damning someone and saying hey you shouldn't do that, it could have some dire consuquences on your life. and if you look at it, if you obey most of God's word you should have for the most part a safe and productive life. Coincidence? Nope. an example of this would be the pact between abraham and God through circumcision. Did you know that those not circumcised have like a 98% chance of getting cancer in the penis? Then what about not sleeping around/marriage before sex.. thats the only real way to stop the spread of Stds. Im just saying pointing out the consequence of sin and pointing out sin is very sensible and is not hate..And yes love is the most important thing. Thats why we preach, because we love our fellow humans and wish only for the best for them.

Don't know where you got the 98% thing, but thats beside the point. I actually agree that God's laws have reasons and that its good to follow them.

I still think your main priority is spreading love and fighting sin is only secondary. But your approach to fighting sin is ineffective.

You have to ask yourself why are you protesting homosexualities? Is it really out of concern for them? I doubt that.

But lets assume it is out of concern for them. Then what? It's one thing to encourage people not to sin and another to yell at them for sinning. It just simply doesn't work. Are you going to change your mind because some stranger is yelling at you? Wouldn't it be better if someone loved you, got to know you, shared genuine concern for you?

So if you really want to help people. Befriend them (don't just pretend but actually be their friend). Then out of genuine concern (they must realize this is out of concern) you explained to them what is right and why you think it will lead to a better life. You don't demand they change. You don't force them to. You just suggest it from one friend to another. Not only that, but if they don't listen to you then as a friend you need to be there for them when there are consequences for whatever sin it may be. Don't yell at them or abandon them. Love them. That's what Christ would do. See how Jesus Christ delt with sin. I don't recall him waving picket signs in front of tax collectors and telling them they were sinners. Instead he talks to them as equals. He eats with them. He basically becomes their friends and gains their trust. And not surprisingly they are more responsive this way.

an example of this would be the pact between abraham and God through circumcision. Did you know that those not circumcised have like a 98% chance of getting cancer in the penis?

I realize you were merely quoting a TV show and did not double check the reference, so I'm posting this to clear up the issue:

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/312/7033/779/c


God's laws should be followed when they follow common sense. Sorry, that's just my take on it, I'm not trying to offend you or anything.

[QUOTE=Der Drache]Don't know where you got the 98% thing, but thats beside the point. I actually agree that God's laws have reasons and that its good to follow them.

I still think your main priority is spreading love and fighting sin is only secondary. But your approach to fighting sin is ineffective.

You have to ask yourself why are you protesting homosexualities? Is it really out of concern for them? I doubt that.

[QUOTE]


Im not just pointing out one sin like specifically homosexuality. Someone just pulled that out of their rear end because its an effective tool for them to "prove" christians are really "evil" or what not. i know all the bibl verse and all that. I started this thread to get other christians to think about why our church is lukewarm. There have been alot of progressive comments onhow to help out and that is much needed. This thread has also proven that there is a big split in the Body. We need to fill that gap. if we don't then ultimatly will fail. Most importantly though we must Let God back in the church. We have sort of set him aside and started doing obscene things in church. Doing things for entertainment to get more people to come and thus deepen the pocket book. That is not the original intent of the Church. It is to Foremost worship the Lord for His abundance of mercy, secondly to gather with fellow christians and also to learn how to live a better christian life. All of these things revolve around Him and his love, not around the world. When we take the world out of the church and all God back in, then only we can expect to see Fruitful increase

I realize you were merely quoting a TV show and did not double check the reference, so I'm posting this to clear up the issue:

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/312/7033/779/c


God's laws should be followed when they follow common sense. Sorry, that's just my take on it, I'm not trying to offend you or anything.


Yeah there are both sides to the issue..it was prolly not the best idea to use that as an example..Sorry for the screw up guys :(

teach me to run my mouth off again :headbang:

The End of the Age is at hand. Never since the birth, death and subsequent resurection of Christ have Biblical prophesies been fulfilled than the Apocolyptical prophesies are being fulfilled now.

hey Zilam, it's a feature of the forum! It's happened to everyone, especially when you're trying so hard to make a point and make it quickly - you may not choose the best examples.

The Bible is especially hard to take examples from just because of the many interpretations available!

Im not just pointing out one sin like specifically homosexuality. Someone just pulled that out of their rear end because its an effective tool for them to "prove" christians are really "evil" or what not. i know all the bibl verse and all that. I started this thread to get other christians to think about why our church is lukewarm. There have been alot of progressive comments onhow to help out and that is much needed. This thread has also proven that there is a big split in the Body. We need to fill that gap. if we don't then ultimatly will fail. Most importantly though we must Let God back in the church. We have sort of set him aside and started doing obscene things in church. Doing things for entertainment to get more people to come and thus deepen the pocket book. That is not the original intent of the Church. It is to Foremost worship the Lord for His abundance of mercy, secondly to gather with fellow christians and also to learn how to live a better christian life. All of these things revolve around Him and his love, not around the world. When we take the world out of the church and all God back in, then only we can expect to see Fruitful increase

Ok I can agree with you here

let God back nto the church? are you crazy? who ame up with that idea?

*snip*
You know who didn't agree with your argument? Jesus. He pointed out that what was unclean on earth (what caused disease) had nothing to do with what makes us unclean to God. Matthew 15. Learn it, love it, live it and stop arguing against it.

You know, Jesus never said anything about not being circumcised, Paul did, and I agree. There is no individual salvation reason that requires circumcision. However, I bet Jesus and Paul were both circumcised and to say that it has no medical benefits (as you mentioned elsewhere, unquoted here) that the AMA does not endorce the practice then The Mayo clinic must disagree with the AMA?

Mayo Clinic's Infancy and Circumcision Advice…
Potential benefits of circumcision

Some research suggests that circumcision has health benefits, including:
Decreased risk of urinary tract infections (UTIs). Although the risk of UTIs in the first year is low, various studies suggest that UTIs may be as much as 10 times more common in uncircumcised baby boys than in those who are circumcised. Uncircumcised boys are also more likely to be admitted to the hospital for a severe UTI during the first three months of life. Severe UTIs early in life can lead to kidney problems later on.

Decreased risk of cancer of the penis. Although this type of cancer is very rare, circumcised men show a lower incidence of cancer of the penis than do uncircumcised men.

Slightly decreased risk of sexually transmitted diseases (STDs). Some studies have shown a lower risk of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) and human papillomavirus (HPV) infections in circumcised men. Still, safe sexual practices are much more important in the prevention of STDs than is circumcision.

Prevention of penile problems. Occasionally, the foreskin on an uncircumcised penis may narrow to the point where it's difficult or impossible to retract, a condition called phimosis. Circumcision may then be needed to treat the problem. A narrowed foreskin can also lead to inflammation of the head of the penis (balanitis).

Ease of hygiene. Circumcision makes it easier to wash the penis. An intact foreskin, however, isn't really an obstacle to cleanliness. Normally the foreskin adheres to the end of the penis in a newborn, then gradually stretches back during early childhood. Until the foreskin retracts, all you have to do is wash your baby's genital area gently with soap and water. Later, your son can learn to gently pull the foreskin back and cleanse the tip of the penis with soap and water.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/invoke.cfm?id=PR00040&bucket=staged

Although it is starting to look like infant circumcision is required for the primary benefits to take place as some studies are apparently starting to show that adult (post adolescence) circumcision does not produce the same benefits…

With that in mind: Researchers have attempted to learn more about whether circumcision prevents infection and certain types of cancer, but more studies need to be done to answer some of these questions. It is known that circumcision prevents infection and inflammation of the foreskin. And it seems to decrease the risk of cancer of the penis.

Studies have shown a greater risk of cervical cancer in female sexual partners of uncircumcised men who are infected with human papillomavirus (warts). Circumcision might also have a role in reducing the risk of sexually transmitted diseases. Practicing safe sex is a far more important factor in preventing these diseases than whether a man is circumcised.

Recent studies suggest that infants who are not circumcised may be more likely to develop urinary tract infections. These infections early in life may lead to kidney problems later in life. Infants who have abnormalities of the kidney or bladder are at higher risk for urinary infections, so circumcision may be advised for these babies.

Occasionally, problems can occur with the uncircumcised penis which require circumcision at an older age. These problems include inflammation of the foreskin or adherence of the foreskin to the tip of the penis. These problems occur in about 2 to 6 percent of uncircumcised males. Circumcision in infancy eliminates the possible need for the procedure at an older age.

Cleanliness: Circumcision makes it easy to keep the end of the penis clean. However, the shedding skin cells that naturally accumulate on the glans of an uncircumcised boy are not harmful. Do not force the foreskin back to clean the penis of an infant or young boy. Washing with soap and water is all that's necessary. After you son's foreskin is fully retractable, then washing under the foreskin during a bath or shower is part of good hygiene habits. The risk of penile cancer appears to be linked to personal hygiene.

Jesus did a lot of things that they considered very radical at the time, but I'd bet good money that if we saw him today he would look more like an Orthodox Jew following orthodox rules and customs and dress and prayer methodologies with the bands on the wrists and head etc., that to act like he dismissed all cultural heritage is misconstruing the facts we do know and possibly deceiving on your part.

Again, I reiterate, there is no reason to be circumcised from a Christian point of view, but neither is there reason NOT to be circumcised. Paul was mostly talking to adult uncircumcised men who had a hang-up with becoming a Christian and told them that there was no requirement for them to do it. But he also had an adult friend become circumcised because he was to travel to a town that expected circumcision…

You can bet good money that Jesus and all of the apostles were circumcised AND circumcised their male children as well (even after the resurrection)…

[/end thread hi-jack] :D