NationStates Jolt Archive

To help settle all the arguing (even though I helped to promote it) lets settle on this.

There is the Known; which is everything we understand and the Knowable; which is everything we CAN understand (following me so far?).

Then there is the Unknown; which is everything we don't know and the Unknowable, which is everything we will NEVER be able to understand with 100% accuracy.

Examples are:

Known: What Goes Up Must Go Down
Knowable: What happened at last years Superbowl (though WHY you would want to is beyond me.)

Unknown: The Cure For AIDS
Unknowable: Is there a God?

------------------------------

So can we PLEASE stop arguing about something we could NEVER fully comprehend or argee on or explain in this lifetime?

It will make things run so much easier.

Ya, shut up the ignorant agnostic Nazis that only see the evils committed by people who follow G-d wrongly, and use it to be evil right back at us.

Thank you! Now we can all go home happy!! It's about time!!

Exactly! God is unknowable, therefore the most logical course of action is to be agnostic.

Ya, shut up the ignorant agnostic Nazis that only see the evils committed by people who follow G-d wrongly, and use it to be evil right back at us.
You %)(*@U, I'm an agnostic but not because God is evil. Oh and thank you for letting me invoke Godwin!

I Agree completley with the creator of this thread. Christians are trying to take over the world with their religion, and it needs to stop. However, the battle is almost pointless for such a small minority to try and win.

And no, God is not "Knowable". There is no evidence AT ALL that a God exists. Everything you think you "Know" is based completley on faith, and the religion itself says that so shut the F*** up. :)

All superior kingdoms are incomprehensible to the inferior; how therefore could it be possible that the creature, man, should understand the almighty Creator of all?

That which we imagine, is not the Reality of God; He, the Unknowable, the Unthinkable, is far beyond the highest conception of man.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 24)

All superior kingdoms are incomprehensible to the inferior; how therefore could it be possible that the creature, man, should understand the almighty Creator of all?

That which we imagine, is not the Reality of God; He, the Unknowable, the Unthinkable, is far beyond the highest conception of man.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 24)

This is from the Bahaii Faith right?

So can we PLEASE stop arguing about something we could NEVER fully comprehend or argee on or explain in this lifetime?

It will make things run so much easier.

Not sure what this has to do with "Mary-ism".

But no. Faith is an integral part of everything around us. We all have beliefs that are pieced together by experience. Sometimes, we feel these beliefs are so true, so profound that it would be terrible not to share them with others.

And thus we argue, all sides of the religious and nonreligious spectrum argue to enlighten. So long as this is done with love in mind, with charity, the results cannot be detrimental.

The suggestion of remaining silent, though? Of not questioning, not investigating, but letting your belief sit in an isolationist closet? What if you are wrong? No one benefits without open discussion.

Thats the problem, open discussion about religion (or the lack therof) has always lead to arguing that leads both sides to hate each other and want the otherside put to the sword.

Maybe it's why the subject of religion should be declared Taboo in Public and left to personal thought and life alone.

All superior kingdoms are incomprehensible to the inferior; how therefore could it be possible that the creature, man, should understand the almighty Creator of all?

That which we imagine, is not the Reality of God; He, the Unknowable, the Unthinkable, is far beyond the highest conception of man.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 24)

Well, now I see the book of Job's influence on the Baha'i faith.

It's nice to find commonality with belief systems we don't necessarily subscribe to.

Thats the problem, open discussion about religion (or the lack therof) has always lead to arguing that leads both sides to hate each other and want the otherside put to the sword.

Maybe it's why the subject of religion should be declared Taboo in Public and left to personal thought and life alone.

Yeah, but taboo declarations (oh, the irony!) don't tend to solve anything, ever. They just make anger and misunderstanding fester.

We just have to be rational, loving people. That may sound impossible in a large perspective, but that's why we can do our best on a personal level.

But don't at least agree with the simple fact that the very essence of the idea of God is based in the Unknownable and NO ONE can safely claim 100% valitity (unless their insane, Osama Bin Ladin example).

And to everyone who says I'm an atheist, I'm not, I'm a Zen Buddhist.

I think there might be A God, but since there is so much unknownable about the subject I tend to leave it be (unless I'm going on rants agianst Christianity, but I digress).

This is from the Bahaii Faith right?

yes.

But don't at least agree with the simple fact that the very essence of the idea of God is based in the Unknownable and NO ONE can safely claim 100% valitity (unless their insane, Osama Bin Ladin example).

And to everyone who says I'm an atheist, I'm not, I'm a Zen Buddhist.

I think there might be A God, but since there is so much unknownable about the subject I tend to leave it be (unless I'm going on rants agianst Christianity, but I digress).

You must remember that many religious types believe that God works actively in their lives, having an actual, physical effect on the world around them. This may not be definitive proof for the world entire, but it is certainly enough for that individual person.

In no other areas do we avoid discussion just because something cannot be definitively proven. I don't think religion should be the first thing to become a mandated taboo, so to speak.

Atheists and the like should encourage religious folk to make their points known. Then, in their opinion, they can point out all the inherent flaws. Without discussion, the ignorant religious will be allowed to populate uncontrollably. At least, that's how it would be from that perspective.

You must remember that many religious types believe that God works actively in their lives, having an actual, physical effect on the world around them. This may not be definitive proof for the world entire, but it is certainly enough for that individual person.

In no other areas do we avoid discussion just because something cannot be definitively proven. I don't think religion should be the first thing to become a mandated taboo, so to speak.

Atheists and the like should encourage religious folk to make their points known. Then, in their opinion, they can point out all the inherent flaws. Without discussion, the ignorant religious will be allowed to populate uncontrollably. At least, that's how it would be from that perspective.

Discussion is important I'll consede that (guess what were doing right now ;) ) but I'm pointing out the flaws of discussion. That they tend to turn into ugly yelling matches with nothing getting resolved except both sides agreeing to kill the other guy to get even.

Thats the problem, open discussion about religion (or the lack therof) has always lead to arguing that leads both sides to hate each other and want the otherside put to the sword.

Maybe it's why the subject of religion should be declared Taboo in Public and left to personal thought and life alone.


are you fucking stupid or something? obviously something had to create the Universe. because it didnt just happen. there was no "BIG BANG" that created the Universe im sorry but its not possible. you cant have "NOTHING" and have it "Explode" and turn into "Something" and arguments are essential to a happy relationship. this right here is a class a example of a Left-Wing liberal that needs to keep his damn mouth shut. people argue it happens. are you going to tell a man and a wife just because they have an argument over something they should get divorced? or that they should not speak again about that issue? i say your a fucking retard. and this is sad because i dont normally Troll threads but this one i had to say something about.

Discussion is important I'll consede that (guess what were doing right now ;) ) but I'm pointing out the flaws of discussion. That they tend to turn into ugly yelling matches with nothing getting resolved except both sides agreeing to kill the other guy to get even.

Strangely enough, discussion has changed my mind before. Usually it doesn't happen until after the discussion, when I'm reflecting on things. Like many, I yield little in the heat of the moment. :)

Without discussion, though, my life would have taken a completely different path, and arguably not a better one. Of course . . .

are you fucking stupid or something? obviously something had to create the Universe. because it didnt just happen. there was no "BIG BANG" that created the Universe im sorry but its not possible. you cant have "NOTHING" and have it "Explode" and turn into "Something" and arguments are essential to a happy relationship. this right here is a class a example of a Left-Wing liberal that needs to keep his damn mouth shut. people argue it happens. are you going to tell a man and a wife just because they have an argument over something they should get divorced? or that they should not speak again about that issue? i say your a fucking retard. and this is sad because i dont normally Troll threads but this one i had to say something about.

Okay, Habbakah, is this an elaborate scheme to prove Khallayne's point? :)

are you fucking stupid or something? obviously something had to create the Universe. because it didnt just happen. there was no "BIG BANG" that created the Universe im sorry but its not possible. you cant have "NOTHING" and have it "Explode" and turn into "Something" and arguments are essential to a happy relationship. this right here is a class a example of a Left-Wing liberal that needs to keep his damn mouth shut. people argue it happens. are you going to tell a man and a wife just because they have an argument over something they should get divorced? or that they should not speak again about that issue? i say your a fucking retard. and this is sad because i dont normally Troll threads but this one i had to say something about.

Because of my inexaustible faith in human intelligence I assume that you're being sarcastic. If not:

Look, no-one on this thread even mentioned the big bang, but lets hook onto that: by current understanding the big bang didn't explode from "nothing", it exploded from a massive singularity. Where did that mass come from? Maybe from quantum physics (which does allow matter to spontaneously appear), maybe from a previous, collapsed universe, maybe even by another 3-brane vibrating paralell to our own. In any case, of course it came from somewhere, as did whatever came before that. Causation doesn't have to have a beginning, as a matter of fact it can't.

Your analogy about making religion a taboo topic is innaccurate. Think about if the husband and wife not only argued about said topic once, but on a daily basis, and not calmly, but with a tone much like that of your post. In that case they probably should divorce.

There IS a God...and He has a very peculiar sense of humor

{{looking up}}

NO! Really, the Red Alert 2 disks spontaneously exploding in disk drives were enough! Really! I'll pray! Don't break the modem!

((Seriously, I was stopping prayer and not going to synagogue becuase I played a lot of RA2. All three disks (Including Yuri's Revenge), at different times, exploded spontaneously in the disk drive, under totally different circumstances (once while playing game, once while working on WordPerfect with game in there, and once when the computer was off and I left the disk in...)}}

are you fucking stupid or something? obviously something had to create the Universe. because it didnt just happen. there was no "BIG BANG" that created the Universe im sorry but its not possible. you cant have "NOTHING" and have it "Explode" and turn into "Something" and arguments are essential to a happy relationship. this right here is a class a example of a Left-Wing liberal that needs to keep his damn mouth shut. people argue it happens. are you going to tell a man and a wife just because they have an argument over something they should get divorced? or that they should not speak again about that issue? i say your a fucking retard. and this is sad because i dont normally Troll threads but this one i had to say something about.

Lovely. "How about we all stop talking about Religion to keep everyone happy and refrain from hating each other?"

"No, fuck you, you're fucking stupid, it's quite clear that I'm right and that's where the religious debate ends. No hatred comes from this, fuck you."

Um... like you said, something can't come from nothing, so God can't come from nothing either. "God is X, that's why he can come from nothing." Well, then we can just say the universe is X, there you go.

God didn't create the universe. Problem: so the universe just came out of nowhere?

God created the universe. Problem: so God just came out of nowhere?

If you can conceive of a God where nothing created him, then why can't you conceive of a universe where nothing created it?

There IS a God...and He has a very peculiar sense of humor

{{looking up}}

NO! Really, the Red Alert 2 disks spontaneously exploding in disk drives were enough! Really! I'll pray! Don't break the modem!

((Seriously, I was stopping prayer and not going to synagogue becuase I played a lot of RA2. All three disks (Including Yuri's Revenge), at different times, exploded spontaneously in the disk drive, under totally different circumstances (once while playing game, once while working on WordPerfect with game in there, and once when the computer was off and I left the disk in...)}}

Wow. Testify!

*weep* I remember the order they went too...Soviet-Yuri-Allied...RIP...RA2...

There IS a God...and He has a very peculiar sense of humor

{{looking up}}

NO! Really, the Red Alert 2 disks spontaneously exploding in disk drives were enough! Really! I'll pray! Don't break the modem!

((Seriously, I was stopping prayer and not going to synagogue becuase I played a lot of RA2. All three disks (Including Yuri's Revenge), at different times, exploded spontaneously in the disk drive, under totally different circumstances (once while playing game, once while working on WordPerfect with game in there, and once when the computer was off and I left the disk in...)}}

<3

That is the best thing I have heard all day. ^.^

I wholly agree with the thread's creator. There will always be believers and nonbelievers, and since we can't come to a general consensus about it, why don't we just, well, shut up about it? Let people go their own ways. I personally think that each of the so-called religious states should hold a vote. If they want a religion put forward as a pseudo-ideology, then they vote yes. And then they vote what religion they want set forth. Kind of like the California gubernatorial recall.

Remember that the Constitution says Freedom OF Religion, not Freedom FROM Religion.

Remember that the Constitution says Freedom OF Religion, not Freedom FROM Religion.
No it dosent

No it dosent

Maybe not directly, but if you study old laws and constitution text and amendments, you'll find it there. :)

Maybe not directly, but if you study old laws and constitution text and amendments, you'll find it there. :)
Depending on the context we dont have freedom from religion in our every day life

But our constitution specifies that our GOVERNMENT is ... and that was what he was advocating ... alowing the government state by state to establish a religion
That is prohibited

In that sense we DO have freedom from religion

We need a Constitutional Admendment saying "Freedom FROM Religion" just to get rid of Pat Robertsons Lobbying group in D.C., oh and to kill the powerbase of the Republican Party.

I honestly believe religious discussions can be conducted in a productive manner, provided people are determined to use the speech of wise men and not the speech of kings.

[QUOTE=Zxein]I Agree completley with the creator of this thread. Christians are trying to take over the world with their religion, and it needs to stop. However, the battle is almost pointless for such a small minority to try and win. QUOTE]

Had the perfect come back but I have decided to protect you from your bleeding eyes.

To help settle all the arguing (even though I helped to promote it) lets settle on this.

There is the Known; which is everything we understand and the Knowable; which is everything we CAN understand (following me so far?).

Then there is the Unknown; which is everything we don't know and the Unknowable, which is everything we will NEVER be able to understand with 100% accuracy.

Examples are:

Known: What Goes Up Must Go Down
Knowable: What happened at last years Superbowl (though WHY you would want to is beyond me.)

Unknown: The Cure For AIDS
Unknowable: Is there a God?

------------------------------

So can we PLEASE stop arguing about something we could NEVER fully comprehend or argee on or explain in this lifetime?

It will make things run so much easier.


Very enlightening, and I agree... Though discussion is different than ranting... I think it is perfectly fine to discuss philosophy in public [including the discussion of the direct "unknowable" aspects of religious ideolog(y/ies)]..

However, to drive the point to the furthest... AND discussion with the intent to make evidence and proof of the "unknowable" devolves into a flame-war hate-fest... This would include THEISTS bringing up the idea of forced proof in God/god/gods; as it applied to ATHEISTS or any such other doing the inverse... EITHER ONE IS BASED FROM AN UNSUPPORTED, UNKNOWABLE IDEOLOGICAL VIEWPOINT and is THEREBY equally "religious"... (Atheism might not be directly "religious"; but neither is THEISM... each is a THEOLOGICAL viewpoint, and each is connected to a backdrop of connected IDEOLOGICAL views, which ultimately culminate into a overal Religio-Philosophical position; thus, as soon as you invoke a "god/God/gods" discussion, in the affirmative or negative; you are in fact invoking religion.... This goes for Theistic types as much and equally as Atheistic types...)....

That being said, I hope; regardless of ones personal religious ideology (which includes religious ideology which goes against organized, and/or spiritual religions; (example Atheistic Secular Humanism, Naturalism, etc.)); that all take note of the full implications of what is being mentioned here...