NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, time to let it all out at the Christians.
Why do you belive in 'God' ?
How will this benefit you in the 'Afterlife' or even better...in 'Heaven' ?
Will you be swimming in 'Milk and Honey ?'
Dont make me laugh.
You cant prove there is a 'God', and the bible is absolutely laughable, so that doesnt count.
Surely, if there is a 'God' then he cant expect a being he created to know that a 'God' exists.
Particularly if there is no solid (Or even murky) evidence that a 'God' exists.
Why should I belive in 'God' ?
The best evidence ive seen is 'Jesus' face appearing on a piece of toast, which is just a coincidence, there was an equal chance of Bin Ladens face appearing on the toast.
Come on Christians, fight back.
And maybe, just maybe, youll sell it to me.

Strangely enough, a few years ago I would have mostly agreed with you.

Ain't that strange?

So why dont you agree with me ? Put your point across.
Its a world of free speach afterall

So why dont you agree with me ? Put your point across.
Its a world of free speach afterall I converted. Not due to social pressure or any human - and my friends are still totally bewildered after two years. I still don't know why - and it's not any kind of weakness, I was quite happy as an atheist.

Oh dear...well im one of those bewildered now... :confused:
How beculiar...

You cant prove there is a 'God', and the bible is absolutely laughable, so that doesnt count.

and no one can prove that there isnt a God, the bible explains alot, even beofre people were studying the world and comprehending it, it explained why so many things happened. people who say the bible doesnt make sense just doesnt understand it, its not a matter of just reading it, you have to understand what it is saying.

I converted. Not due to social pressure or any human - and my friends are still totally bewildered after two years. I still don't know why - and it's not any kind of weakness, I was quite happy as an atheist.and how do you feel now?

So, you're saying that because you don't agree with the Christian belief system, and you're looking to provoke Christians, we should 'fight back' as you call it, and waste our time trying to convince someone who knows the truth, but refuses to believe it?

No thanks. :)

Well, maybe you're right, maybe there's nothing beyond this life and there are no consequences to what you do on this little planet. But, personally, I think it would be a little shitty, and I'd be mighty pissed off if I broke my arse getting through life, with all it's pains and miseries, and there wasn't even a clap on the back to say 'Well done, you got this far'

I believe in an afterlife because I don't want this to be it (suffering with a toothache at the mo does NOT make life more pleasant, and that's a minor pain compared with other pain I've had).
I believe in God because the Universe seems just that little bit bigger and emptier without one.

If someone turns aroound and tells me something completely different that beats my believe into the ground, it doesn't matter, I believe that whatever you believe in will happen to you beyond death, so everyone's right about what lies beyond death...

and how do you feel now? Still happy.

Ok...how about this.
Somewhere in the bible it says 'A eye for an eye'.
Now, unless im very much mistaken, thats revenge.
Revenge can be a good thing, but it can be a very bad thing too.
So, if someone chops your leg off and pushes sawdush into the wound, will you do the same to the offender ?

Ok...how about this.
Somewhere in the bible it says 'A eye for an eye'.
Now, unless im very much mistaken, thats revenge.
Revenge can be a good thing, but it can be a very bad thing too.
So, if someone chops your leg off and pushes sawdush into the wound, will you do the same to the offender ? No, that's saying that the PUNISHMENT SHOULD FIT THE CRIME - something not at all common when it was written. It says "eye for eye, tooth for tooth" - so, a small crime should be punished by a small sentence.

"Vengeance is mine" saith the Lord.

Oh, and, if you take a quote out of it's context, you have a pretext.

Well, maybe you're right, maybe there's nothing beyond this life and there are no consequences to what you do on this little planet. But, personally, I think it would be a little shitty, and I'd be mighty pissed off if I broke my arse getting through life, with all it's pains and miseries, and there wasn't even a clap on the back to say 'Well done, you got this far'

I believe in an afterlife because I don't want this to be it (suffering with a toothache at the mo does NOT make life more pleasant, and that's a minor pain compared with other pain I've had).
I believe in God because the Universe seems just that little bit bigger and emptier without one.

If someone turns aroound and tells me something completely different that beats my believe into the ground, it doesn't matter, I believe that whatever you believe in will happen to you beyond death, so everyone's right about what lies beyond death...
I understand.
But do you really think there is more beyond ? I doubt it.
Beings on different planets dying, do they go to the same afterlife ? Will you come across aliens in heaven ?

Come on Christians, fight back.


Actually, Christians are supposed to turn the other cheek. ;)

*pokes his head into the bash* Opps sorry guys wrong bash. The invitation I got mentions something about a monster bash but nothing about a christian one. :rolleyes:

"The best evidence ive seen is 'Jesus' face appearing on a piece of toast,"

I believe in Flying Spaghetti Monsterism,
Someone sold on ebay a piece of toast with the face of the FSM on it,
Therefore, Flying Spaghetti Monster is the one true God.

Also, there is a $1m bounty (and I don't mean a REALLY big coconut + chocolate treat) for anyone who can prove that Jesus is not the son of the FSM.

Me, I don't believe that Jesus was the son of the FSM, I think he touched Christians with his noodly appendage to make them believe all that 'Bible' stuff for his own unknowable and pasta-related reasons.

Just adding my 2c

No, that's saying that the PUNISHMENT SHOULD FIT THE CRIME - something not at all common when it was written. It says "eye for eye, tooth for tooth" - so, a small crime should be punished by a small sentence.
Well...thats debatable...I mean, if someone pokes youre eye out, I wouldnt really view that as a minor crime.

Beings on different planets dying, do they go to the same afterlife ? Will you come across aliens in heaven ?

I find it easier to believe there is a God, than to believe that there's life on other planets. Nobody can really prove either, yet you seem to believe in the existence of Aliens, and are assuming that everyone else does by asking us to answer your question.

*pokes his head into the bash* Opps sorry guys wrong bash. The invitation I got mentions something about a monster bash but nothing about a christian one. :rolleyes:


I think that's "monster MASH." As I understand it, it's a graveyard smash! ;)

Well...thats debatable...I mean, if someone pokes youre eye out, I wouldnt really view that as a minor crime. I have had teeth broken before by other people. It wasn't really a major crime.

Ok, time to let it all out at the Christians.
Why do you belive in 'God' ?
How will this benefit you in the 'Afterlife' or even better...in 'Heaven' ?
Will you be swimming in 'Milk and Honey ?'
Dont make me laugh.
You cant prove there is a 'God', and the bible is absolutely laughable, so that doesnt count.
Surely, if there is a 'God' then he cant expect a being he created to know that a 'God' exists.
Particularly if there is no solid (Or even murky) evidence that a 'God' exists.
Why should I belive in 'God' ?
The best evidence ive seen is 'Jesus' face appearing on a piece of toast, which is just a coincidence, there was an equal chance of Bin Ladens face appearing on the toast.
Come on Christians, fight back.
And maybe, just maybe, youll sell it to me.

i'm using the bible to back some of this up, so don't go thinking i'm ruthless. i'm a puppy dog inside:

1)Insert "faith" argument here

2)Well, I'll be in Heaven because I believe(d) in Jesus, that only his blood on the Cross could save me (and everyone else). Heaven will be far, far better than hell.

Make you laugh? lmao. I suppose I'd have to show videotapes of dead babies to make you laugh.

3)Your bashing is what's laughable. You can't prove that God ISN'T real. (refer to "faith" question).

4)God expects us to know he exists because he told us he exists. Ever heard of Abraham... or Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? Do i need to start Bible lessons with you...?

5)You should believe in God (Jesus) because if you don't, you'll burn in hell (biblically speaking). Is that incentive enough?

Also, believing in Jesus and following Him (or trying to, which is half the battle) has made many, many, many sad/lost/aimless people happy and fulfilled. (the non-threat-based incentive for following God/Jesus)

finally, I cannot judge you... but God will. If you believe that you will be judged on your beliefs and deeds, that's a good start -- learning to fear/respect God.

Well...thats debatable...I mean, if someone pokes youre eye out, I wouldnt really view that as a minor crime.

He didn't say it was. He said the punishment should fit the crime. Try to follow along, OK?

I find it easier to believe there is a God, than to believe that there's life on other planets. Nobody can really prove either, yet you seem to believe in the existence of Aliens, and are assuming that everyone else does by asking us to answer your question.
Right...at least 5000 planets (Visable) and trillions (Not visible)
This requires a little faith (Im not christian, but I belive in beliving), but im absolutely certain that our planet isnt the only one in the entire universe(s).
Our planet is the only planet with life out of 100,000,000,000,000-infinity is a small chance.

5)You should believe in God (Jesus) because if you don't, you'll burn in hell (biblically speaking). Is that incentive enough?



Be serious mate, for all I know, hell is the frying pan when frying something.
Thats part of Christianity.
What reason does God have to make you suffer for all eternity ?
For being human and questioning things ?

2)Well, I'll be in Heaven because I believe(d) in Jesus, that only his blood on the Cross could save me (and everyone else). Heaven will be far, far better than hell.


1) As I've said before this treats faith as a choice which it is not.
2) Doesn't tell which religion is the right one. How do you know the Hindu's are not right and you will be coming back as a lower lifeform. How do you know that Thomas Paine wasn't right and God preffers well reasoned doubt to blind acceptance.


4)God expects us to know he exists because he told us he exists. Ever heard of Abraham... or Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? Do i need to start Bible lessons with you...?


Yes but I have also heard of Mohammed, Homer, Krishna, etc. God(s) seem to have told a lot of people different things. How can we decided which one is right?

5)You should believe in God (Jesus) because if you don't, you'll burn in hell (biblically speaking). Is that incentive enough?


1) Again it treats faith as a choice, which it is not
2) According to you, even though I love God with all my heart and soul, I'm still going to Hell because I'm too stupid to realize that Jesus is God? Doesn't quiet seem fair.

Also, believing in Jesus and following Him (or trying to, which is half the battle) has made many, many, many sad/lost/aimless people happy and fulfilled. (the non-threat-based incentive for following God/Jesus)

And leaving Christianity for my current religion made me less sad and lost and more happy and fulfilled.

i'm using the bible to back some of this up, so don't go thinking i'm ruthless. i'm a puppy dog inside:

1)Insert "faith" argument here

2)Well, I'll be in Heaven because I believe(d) in Jesus, that only his blood on the Cross could save me (and everyone else). Heaven will be far, far better than hell.

Make you laugh? lmao. I suppose I'd have to show videotapes of dead babies to make you laugh.

3)Your bashing is what's laughable. You can't prove that God ISN'T real. (refer to "faith" question).

4)God expects us to know he exists because he told us he exists. Ever heard of Abraham... or Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? Do i need to start Bible lessons with you...?

5)You should believe in God (Jesus) because if you don't, you'll burn in hell (biblically speaking). Is that incentive enough?

Also, believing in Jesus and following Him (or trying to, which is half the battle) has made many, many, many sad/lost/aimless people happy and fulfilled. (the non-threat-based incentive for following God/Jesus)

finally, I cannot judge you... but God will. If you believe that you will be judged on your beliefs and deeds, that's a good start -- learning to fear/respect God.

Why should I fear my 'maker' ?
He created me, I shouldnt be afraid of him, but be mates with him.
Even go to the pub with him for a pint in 'Gods Tavern'.

Why do you belive in 'God' ?
Why would you not belive in God? Somthing had to creat us, and if you think the big bang or any thing like that, what created the bang and what created what made the bang. As for my veiw in God existace, a God could create time, space, and logic. those very things are what give us the idea what created us?

How will this benefit you in the 'Afterlife' or even better...in 'Heaven' ?
I really do not know, personaly, I don't even think heaven is going to be an all great place. I see heaven as a place better then here and hell. But not better to the extent that it makes life here look like hell.

Will you be swimming in 'Milk and Honey ?'
No, I hate milk, and i hate honey.

Dont make me laugh.
So three blondes walk into a bar... i aint gunna finsh you most likly heard it by now.
You cant prove there is a 'God', and the bible is absolutely laughable, so that doesnt count.
And what says there is no God. As i said before somthing made us, and somthing would have made what made us, unless the idea was created after the creators existance.

Surely, if there is a 'God' then he cant expect a being he created to know that a 'God' exists.
Maybe he made us to see what we do with only a little bit of influance, how the hell should I know.

Particularly if there is no solid (Or even murky) evidence that a 'God' exists.
Why should I belive in 'God' ?
Well for one thing, i saw jesus on a peice of toast. Also, what really do you have to lose, being a beliver has its ups and downs. It helps you get into the gold club. And when you die, and end up in heaven because you thought why not, you can say dam i'm glade I chose somthing, other than waking up in hell one morning and say, "Dam, i was wrong all along." As where if there is no god, you'll end up in the same place.

Why do you belive in 'God' ?Because I do. He made himself known to me in ways that I cannot disprove.
How will this benefit you in the 'Afterlife' or even better...in 'Heaven' ?because only the believers will enter. the others can't
Will you be swimming in 'Milk and Honey ?'don't know really... probaly not tho... I'd rather drink milk and honey.
Ok, time to let it all out at the Christians.
Dont make me laugh.by these two statements, you've shown that you don't want to believe but just want an argument. you're just joining the many others that try to villify religion and not seeking answers yourself. basically, you're trolling and providing flamebait.
You cant prove there is a 'God', and the bible is absolutely laughable, so that doesnt count.you can't disprove 'God' either, and science is constantly changing and proving what was once proven to be mistaken so thus Science doesn't count either.
Surely, if there is a 'God' then he cant expect a being he created to know that a 'God' exists.God wants us to seek him out. if you don't want to believe, then you won't.
Particularly if there is no solid (Or even murky) evidence that a 'God' exists.the same type of evidence to prove that God doesn't exist.
Why should I belive in 'God' ?because you should. but weither or not you will is entiely up to you.
The best evidence ive seen is 'Jesus' face appearing on a piece of toast, which is just a coincidence, there was an equal chance of Bin Ladens face appearing on the toast.if that is your best evidence, then you have my pity.
Come on Christians, fight back.for all your ranting and raving... why bother, God himself can come down and you still won't believe him.
And maybe, just maybe, youll sell it to me.knowing that you won't believe, why bother. If you truly want to believe, then on-line forums isn't the place to turn to, but to a church. and it doesn't have to be a catholic one.

A Christian bash
Now do you mean a bash as in a party, or an attack? I prefer the former myself

I think that's "monster MASH." As I understand it, it's a graveyard smash! ;)

Damn typos on the invitations. I'm going to have to have a word with the ass who did them. :rolleyes:

Also, what really do you have to lose, being a beliver has its ups and downs. It helps you get into the gold club. And when you die, and end up in heaven because you thought why not, you can say dam i'm glade I chose somthing, other than waking up in hell one morning and say, "Dam, i was wrong all along." As where if there is no god, you'll end up in the same place.

1) Again this treats belief as a choice. Can you wake up and say, "Hey, I think I'll believe Prometheus was chained to a rock and had his liver eaten every day by a vulture for saving humanity,"?

2) What about a God that preffers reasoned doubt to blind acceptance? The atheists might benifit while those who followed unquestioning are punished.

Dear dear, I must confess I am a little disappointed, granted, the Christian faith is not so much a theological rock as a sieve, with discrepancies and flaws the size of South Wales, however, I precieve no justification therin in lambasting them for their faith, since it is a personal affair, not a populist one.

Damn typos on the invitations. I'm going to have to have a word with the ass who did them. :rolleyes:so my dressing up as the Wolfman was totally unnessecary? damn...

though i don't actually have any, i think that faith is a fine thing. some people need fear or belief in a higher power in order to coerce them into being (mostly) kind and generous people. it also serves to sate feelings of emptiness, meaninglessness, and insignificance in the infinite universe.

that being said, i think that organized religion is fairly evil. someone above, though making many good points about the usefulness of faith said:

You should believe in God (Jesus) because if you don't, you'll burn in hell (biblically speaking). Is that incentive enough?

these types of comments are very short sighted and, frankly, racist. according to this standard, by the virtue of being born in china, or india, or any other enormously populous country where christianity is not the popular cult, one is automatically doomed to eternal damnation. arguments of evangelicalism are often used, but are baseless. what kind of god would only provide a small part of the world with the ability to be saved? i am not interested in the heaven predicted by christianity, or any organized religion that requires belief in place of (or even augmented by) a good life.

just to make this clear. i do not oppose anyone's beliefs or views. i think that faith can be a very positive force. i just don't think that it works with strict tenets and demands for homogeny. thus, it is not my cup of tea.

I understand.
But do you really think there is more beyond ? I doubt it.
Beings on different planets dying, do they go to the same afterlife ? Will you come across aliens in heaven ?

Unless they believe in the same Heaven I believe in...

At the moment you die, you stop perceiving time, therefore the moment of death is eternal for all people, so what you believe at the point of death is what you'll spend the rest of eternity believing...

Unless aliens look exactly like us, then, no, they won't be in the same afterlife because they won't be thinking 'Hey, I wonder if I'll get to see a human in Heaven' when they die. And if they DID look just like us, and WERE in the same afterlife, then how would we know?!?

1) Again this treats belief as a choice. Can you wake up and say, "Hey, I think I'll believe Prometheus was chained to a rock and had his liver eaten every day by a vulture for saving humanity,"?

2) What about a God that preffers reasoned doubt to blind acceptance? The atheists might benifit while those who followed unquestioning are punished.
What i posted was ment to be a little light and not straight foward BELIVE THIS, I have no right to say you should follow my God because he is my God. All i can do is try to inlighten you a little bit and pray you come to the light. But not to close, If is a little bright.
The reasoning i posted here to to lable my beliefes mainly, and hope some one would see somthing in a diffrent veiw, other than a veiw that decliens somthing that they in truth, if true, could not understand. And as for my reasoning to be a christian is, well I do belive I do belive i feel somthing when i try to get closer to Jesus.

And on a side note, i don't belive that God really does much to help the earth nowadayz, I think that after he finshed whats left in the bible, he kind of left earth and its people to figure things out them selves. Untill of corse he decieds its time to end.

you know what amuzes me slightly? The fact that people are using bible quotes in this argument. "Vengence is mine" is no proof that a deity does or does not exist. neither is "an eye for an eye". There is no proof that anything in the bible actually happened. It has been proven that those places existed, but none to support the actual events that have come to mean so much in the abrahamic faiths. I'm not saying that they aren't true, i'm just trying to raise that point. If one can remove themselves from their present veiws and interpretations, the bible is simply a collection of stories that may or may not be true (ledgends). In order to really answer the question that was posed by this thread, one really has to look at it from a philisophical level, not so much from a biblical level, considering the fact that none of those events can be proven. There are many issues with the common translations (mostly because of the first people who did those translations, who were generally corrupt).
Also, I've noticed that this thread seems to only be targetted at Christians, when they are not the only ones who have an opinion as to whether or not a deity exists. There are all the abrahamic faiths (judaism, christianity, and islam, who all beleive in one god), paganism (a majority of which are polytheistic) and buddhism (which, as far as i can gather so far, has no particular veiw on whether or not a god does or does not exist). There are many others, these are only three. If my information regarding these three groups of people is incorrect, please correct me. i only have secondhand knowledge on these groups. (well, except for christianity (was raised that way) paganism :D (later converted) ).

People waste thousands of hours in a church praying to something theyre not sure of.
I dont intend to be one of those people.
How come your Gods havent come down and shown us that they exist ?
Cant they be bothered ? Are they watching GodTV ?
Organised Religion is one of the biggest curses on human beings.

you know what amuzes me slightly? The fact that people are using bible quotes in this argument. "Vengence is mine" is no proof that a deity does or does not exist. neither is "an eye for an eye". There is no proof that anything in the bible actually happened. It has been proven that those places existed, but none to support the actual events that have come to mean so much in the abrahamic faiths. I'm not saying that they aren't true, i'm just trying to raise that point. If one can remove themselves from their present veiws and interpretations, the bible is simply a collection of stories that may or may not be true (ledgends). In order to really answer the question that was posed by this thread, one really has to look at it from a philisophical level, not so much from a biblical level, considering the fact that none of those events can be proven. There are many issues with the common translations (mostly because of the first people who did those translations, who were generally corrupt).
Also, I've noticed that this thread seems to only be targetted at Christians, when they are not the only ones who have an opinion as to whether or not a deity exists. There are all the abrahamic faiths (judaism, christianity, and islam, who all beleive in one god), paganism (a majority of which are polytheistic) and buddhism (which, as far as i can gather so far, has no particular veiw on whether or not a god does or does not exist). There are many others, these are only three. If my information regarding these three groups of people is incorrect, please correct me. i only have secondhand knowledge on these groups. (well, except for christianity (was raised that way) paganism :D (later converted) ).

Oh my, another pagan, how stunning.

God tv has all the best channles, so thats a possablity.

you know what amuzes me slightly? The fact that people are using bible quotes in this argument. "Vengence is mine" is no proof that a deity does or does not exist. neither is "an eye for an eye". There is no proof that anything in the bible actually happened. It has been proven that those places existed, but none to support the actual events that have come to mean so much in the abrahamic faiths. I'm not saying that they aren't true, i'm just trying to raise that point. If one can remove themselves from their present veiws and interpretations, the bible is simply a collection of stories that may or may not be true (ledgends). In order to really answer the question that was posed by this thread, one really has to look at it from a philisophical level, not so much from a biblical level, considering the fact that none of those events can be proven. There are many issues with the common translations (mostly because of the first people who did those translations, who were generally corrupt).
Also, I've noticed that this thread seems to only be targetted at Christians, when they are not the only ones who have an opinion as to whether or not a deity exists. There are all the abrahamic faiths (judaism, christianity, and islam, who all beleive in one god), paganism (a majority of which are polytheistic) and buddhism (which, as far as i can gather so far, has no particular veiw on whether or not a god does or does not exist). There are many others, these are only three. If my information regarding these three groups of people is incorrect, please correct me. i only have secondhand knowledge on these groups. (well, except for christianity (was raised that way) paganism :D (later converted) ).
EXACTLY !!

EXACTLY !!

wow....glad i managed to make somebody happy.. i usually dont put thoughts into words well enough to do that....

Pardon me, but I had a question/statement/doohickey

In the begin you talked about evidence for God, but your right on that matter there will never be concrete proof of God, because that contradicts the whole concept of religion and faith. Take this passage from an illustrious book that you may or may not have read. And for all of those waiting for me to quote the bible…your wrong.

“I refuse to prove I exist” says God, “For proof undermines faith, and without faith I am nothing,” (Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy).

Now that is a true statement from a very well written book that will survive through the ages. If you have concrete evidence for a divine being, you can not have faith in that divine being at least not the kind of faith that Christianity revolves around. This is for a couple of reasons, firstly if you had undeniable proof that God was real, than you really wouldn’t have a choice would you? I mean no body today says “oh I believe that the sky is green, all you blue sky believers are infidels and must be burned for it.” No one says that kind of thing because you would have to be extremely stupid +ignorant to believe something that can be proved it doesn’t exist.

So then where does that leave us. If the Divine Turtle did come down and and say unto you, “KEVIN! I AM THE SUPREME BEING! WORLD! I AM THE SUPREME BEING.” Would anybody be able to go gee whiz I’m thinking that God doesn’t exist, no it’d be foolish when you have a divine flaming turtle on your doorstep, unless your crazy and see giant…flaming…turtles, *looks around ones self and slowly backs away*.

So the key here is that there must be space for doubt otherwise if God exists what are you other than a rock, you would have no capacity for faith which as we quoted is central for a Christian doctrine. Do you get what I’m saying? Oh and I fully welcome any of you chaps to poke holes in my argument, I mean that’s half the fun of intelligent discourse, well that and bashing peoples opinions in to the dirt. *Cracks Knuckles* Yet try not to poke to much fun at the cripple with the hobbled mind.

(((By the way you guys post amazingly fast!)))

What i posted was ment to be a little light and not straight foward BELIVE THIS, I have no right to say you should follow my God because he is my God. All i can do is try to inlighten you a little bit and pray you come to the light. But not to close, If is a little bright.
The reasoning i posted here to to lable my beliefes mainly, and hope some one would see somthing in a diffrent veiw, other than a veiw that decliens somthing that they in truth, if true, could not understand. And as for my reasoning to be a christian is, well I do belive I do belive i feel somthing when i try to get closer to Jesus.

And on a side note, i don't belive that God really does much to help the earth nowadayz, I think that after he finshed whats left in the bible, he kind of left earth and its people to figure things out them selves. Untill of corse he decieds its time to end.
What has God done to save this planet ?
Wars still occur, murder still exists, etc.
If this God of yours did exist, then hes not doing much these days.

<snip>
Faith is all fine and dandy when you want to justify a personal relationship with god. But thats not all that you are doing. You are following a way of life that has moral and social implications that affect others. And because of this faith alone is not enough to justify a belief that will effect myself or other people.

What has God done to save this planet ?
Wars still occur, murder still exists, etc.
If this God of yours did exist, then hes not doing much these days.
I just said he i don't think he was. I belive, God started every thing, and now he is going to let the world roll to its doom, it will have to end sooner or later, because he already said he will end it. (My eyes on the end, if i am wrong who knows it may never end.)
And we are suffering fromt he first sin, and are influenced by dark tides. Because of the sin, somthing that is a punshiment to us. We will suffer war, crimes, and people who abuse there power.

Pardon me, but I had a question/statement/doohickey

In the begin you talked about evidence for God, but your right on that matter there will never be concrete proof of God, because that contradicts the whole concept of religion and faith. Take this passage from an illustrious book that you may or may not have read. And for all of those waiting for me to quote the bible…your wrong.

“I refuse to prove I exist” says God, “For proof undermines faith, and without faith I am nothing,” (Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy).

Now that is a true statement from a very well written book that will survive through the ages. If you have concrete evidence for a divine being, you can not have faith in that divine being at least not the kind of faith that Christianity revolves around. This is for a couple of reasons, firstly if you had undeniable proof that God was real, than you really wouldn’t have a choice would you? I mean no body today says “oh I believe that the sky is green, all you blue sky believers are infidels and must be burned for it.” No one says that kind of thing because you would have to be extremely stupid +ignorant to believe something that can be proved it doesn’t exist.

So then where does that leave us. If the Divine Turtle did come down and and say unto you, “KEVIN! I AM THE SUPREME BEING! WORLD! I AM THE SUPREME BEING.” Would anybody be able to go gee whiz I’m thinking that God doesn’t exist, no it’d be foolish when you have a divine flaming turtle on your doorstep, unless your crazy and see giant…flaming…turtles, *looks around ones self and slowly backs away*.

So the key here is that there must be space for doubt otherwise if God exists what are you other than a rock, you would have no capacity for faith which as we quoted is central for a Christian doctrine. Do you get what I’m saying? Oh and I fully welcome any of you chaps to poke holes in my argument, I mean that’s half the fun of intelligent discourse, well that and bashing peoples opinions in to the dirt. *Cracks Knuckles* Yet try not to poke to much fun at the cripple with the hobbled mind.

(((By the way you guys post amazingly fast!)))


Well...thats a decent enough theory.
But its a theory all the same.

What has God done to save this planet ?
Wars still occur, murder still exists, etc.
If this God of yours did exist, then hes not doing much these days.
You might like Richard Bach. specifically his book "illusions". If you are looking for an interesting philosophical argument, that book explains an interesting one. It manages to explain a different point a veiw quite well. He doesn't ever say god does or does not exist, but he explains his issues with the common ways a veiwing god (the loving god who wants us to be happy, but it is arguable is not doing anything vs. the hating god who wont do anything cause he wants us to be miserable) and Bach eventually draws some interesting conclusions. It is only a section of the book (and it is a short book) but it makes you think.

“I refuse to prove I exist” says God, “For proof undermines faith, and without faith I am nothing,” (Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy).

Now that is a true statement from a very well written book that will survive through the ages. If you have concrete evidence for a divine being, you can not have faith in that divine being at least not the kind of faith that Christianity revolves around. This is for a couple of reasons, firstly if you had undeniable proof that God was real, than you really wouldn’t have a choice would you? I mean no body today says “oh I believe that the sky is green, all you blue sky believers are infidels and must be burned for it.” No one says that kind of thing because you would have to be extremely stupid +ignorant to believe something that can be proved it doesn’t exist.

!)))

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." John 20:29. ;)

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." John 20:29. ;)
again, there is no proof that this actually happened.

You might like Richard Bach. specifically his book "illusions". If you are looking for an interesting philosophical argument, that book explains an interesting one. It manages to explain a different point a veiw quite well. He doesn't ever say god does or does not exist, but he explains his issues with the common ways a veiwing god (the loving god who wants us to be happy, but it is arguable is not doing anything vs. the hating god who wont do anything cause he wants us to be miserable) and Bach eventually draws some interesting conclusions. It is only a section of the book (and it is a short book) but it makes you think.

Ill have a look at it.

Well...thats a decent enough theory.
But its a theory all the same.
When you just say every thing is just a theory, remeber, a Godless world is just a theory.

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." John 20:29. ;)

And then Gid did impart upon his followers "Sod off and procure for yourselves a social life!" Chris 12:2

And then Gid did impart upon his followers "Sod off and procure for yourselves a social life!" Chris 12:2
Hehehehe.

OutpostCommand, don't be a dick. Christians can believe whatever the hell they want to believe. They don't have to defend themselves.

and no one can prove that there isnt a God, the bible explains alot, even beofre people were studying the world and comprehending it, it explained why so many things happened. people who say the bible doesnt make sense just doesnt understand it, its not a matter of just reading it, you have to understand what it is saying.

wrong, the bible does explain why these things happen, but those reasons are wrong. The bible is totally false, but there are good lessons to be learned from it. You dont need to belive in an all knowing God to love thy neighbor, just be a good person. So even though its fiction, its definately a good read.

again, there is no proof that this actually happened.

That's why it's called faith. ;)

OutpostCommand, don't be a dick. Christians can believe whatever the hell they want to believe. They don't have to defend themselves.
I am a Chriatian, and i choose to be hear, people can ignore it if they'd like.

OutpostCommand, don't be a dick. Christians can believe whatever the hell they want to believe. They don't have to defend themselves.
Thats a crap argument.
I have every right to critisise Religion and Christianity, and they have every right to critisise me.
I have the right to poke my nose in their business, they have the right to poke theyre noses in my business.

Hehehehe.

Actually, that's good advice for you as well. If you had more of a social life, perhaps you wouldn't feel the need to create mindless debates that change absolutely no one's opinion. Just a thought. ;)

Actually, that's good advice for you as well. If you had more of a social life, perhaps you wouldn't feel the need to create mindless debates that change absolutely no one's opinion. Just a thought. ;)
Actually, I brought this up because I saw a man raving on about non-belivers going to hell on speakers corner.

y'know.. that whole "going to hell for not believing" thing has always bothered me. It is my opinion that we are shaped by our experiences throughout our life and as such our free will isn't as strong as people believe. We're never truely free from our prejudices to the point that it colours our every desicion. Some people, through no true fault of their own, came to be such dogmatic athiests not because they choose to be but because the life they've lived has made them. I really don't see how any god can begrudge them for that.. anyway, until god comes down and proclaims his existance I'll hold on to my agnostism..

Actually, I brought this up because I saw a man raving on about non-belivers going to hell on speakers corner.

But that's not here, is it? Perhaps you should go to speakers corner (wherever that is) and argue with the man directly, if you really want an argument. ;)

Ok, time to let it all out at the Christians.
Why do you belive in 'God' ?
How will this benefit you in the 'Afterlife' or even better...in 'Heaven' ?
Will you be swimming in 'Milk and Honey ?'
Dont make me laugh.
You cant prove there is a 'God', and the bible is absolutely laughable, so that doesnt count.
Surely, if there is a 'God' then he cant expect a being he created to know that a 'God' exists.
Particularly if there is no solid (Or even murky) evidence that a 'God' exists.
Why should I belive in 'God' ?
The best evidence ive seen is 'Jesus' face appearing on a piece of toast, which is just a coincidence, there was an equal chance of Bin Ladens face appearing on the toast.
Come on Christians, fight back.
And maybe, just maybe, youll sell it to me.

You are going straight to hell, now hold still while I measure you up for a crusifix >.>
But seriously :D This is the way I see it: God gave us free will. Perhaps on average not a good move but I guess he has somthing in mind, he set us up with all the stuff we needed to believe in him, and gave us the choice. That way he can see who is who. I don't rpedent to be a GOOD christian, but there you ahve it, I am one :)

But yea, I think if you lead a good life etc you have a good chance of getting into unpstairs. Believing helps alot of course ;)
But not ESSENTIAL

It is my opinion ...

Exactly. That's what everyone says, as though reality is somehow going to conform to one's personal opinion. If that were true, then there would be over ten billion different realities. It's time people realize that things are what they are, and not always what we'd like them to be.

anyway, until god comes down and proclaims his existance I'll hold on to my agnostism..
Precisely.
Im aithiest because theres no proof of God.
Its not a personally grudge I have against him/her, but just lack of proof.

Okay firstly to respond to the first person who responded to me, and the like as…Hmm can’t abbreviate it as I would like, Economic Associates , nice doohickey.

Faith is nice and dandy, really dandy and of course as everybody who has even stuck there nose in a bible which isn’t fun mind you. Your nose gets clogged with all the ‘theses’ and ‘thous’ and you end up blowing your nose for weeks to get all the old English out of your sinuses. And then your nose is scarred up like…what were we talking about?

Oh yes now I remember affecting others lives. WHAT KIND OF CHRISTAN DOES SOMETHING LIKE THAT. Sheesh. Everybody who knows anything knows that you don’t cram a bible down someone’s throat or impose your morality upon others. I mean you get the whole clockwork orange complex going on. A true Christian I think would be respectful of other peoples opinion/religion/other. Or else you get all the crazy things like Crusades and Witch trials and Inquisitions. You have to respect the individual. You can’t impose a morality on someone else. I mean the whole bibles about that in a way. It’s about living a ‘righteous’ life so that all the others will go, “Gee whiz Carls doing great how is he different than me, I know he castrated himself that’s the secret to his success I’ll do that too.” Now substitute castrate for some relationship with a divine being and you have the general idea of how it’s suppose to work. Of course by saying this one of you psycho christen Hacker people will show up at my door with a stake and the next thing you know, it’s ‘THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELLS YOU! HOW DARE YOU TELL PEOPLE I CAN’T POKE MY NOSE IN PEOPLES BUSSINESS, THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELLS YOU!” Sorry if I don’t make sense I do that sometime I would be happy to clarify in another 10 to fifteen minutes if posting keeps the same.

Nextly, and if you’ll notice that’s not a word I don’t know why it sure does sound neat, I think I’ll use it again. Nextly I’ll address Outpost. Theory, theory, theory. Do you know that everything scientific is theorized. Seriously, it’s the theory of relativity, not the absolute fact of. Now you will always get people who will say that what science says is true, that is not so, we just no that it is not false. For example let’s skip to the next paragraph and see my real example.

For example if I dropped a ball what would happen, if I said it would fall up I could be proven wrong. That’s the basis of the Scientific theory you make a Hypothesis and try to prove it wrong. Which I can do by dropping the ball and watching it fall. I can repeat the process to theorize that the ball will always fall down but I can’t test it. I would have to stand there dropping the ball for all eternity to prove that the ball would always fall down no matter what and then go back in time to tell myself that the ball always fell. You see the issue? That is why theories are so nice you yourself the illusion of having explained something, so your mind doesn’t explode, like trying to comprehend being constantly in freefall yet not…falling…bleh *Brain explodes in an orgy of blood and grey matter. And then coming back to life to tell you that it is grey, not gray*

Well that’s about it I guess hmm…If you all keep posting I’ll be back.

PS I realize I'm crazy

Come on Christians, fight back.


For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephisians 6:12

I am fighting back, just not with you.

Precisely.
Im aithiest because theres no proof of God.
Its not a personally grudge I have against him/her, but just lack of proof.

If you do not seek God, he may or may not call you (there's the story of St. Paul, as someone whom God called even though he (Paul) was actively working against the church). However, more likely than not, he'll leave you alone. If, on the other hand, you sincerely seek God, he'll find you, and offer all the "proof" of his existence that you'll need. Or so I've been told. ;)

y'know.. that whole "going to hell for not believing" thing has always bothered me. It is my opinion that we are shaped by our experiences throughout our life and as such our free will isn't as strong as people believe. We're never truely free from our prejudices to the point that it colours our every desicion. Some people, through no true fault of their own, came to be such dogmatic athiests not because they choose to be but because the life they've lived has made them. I really don't see how any god can begrudge them for that.. anyway, until god comes down and proclaims his existance I'll hold on to my agnostism..
The whole thing with Christianity though is personal responsibility. You are responsible for your choices in life, life isn't responsible for you....

What has God done to save this planet ?
Wars still occur, murder still exists, etc.
If this God of yours did exist, then hes not doing much these days.

I don't believe in an omnipotent god that has the ability to have much effect on the physical world. I believe in a god that is a spiritual being only, and only has power over other spiritual beings (souls and such). I don't claim to know more about god than that, since I think such is impossible. God could be male or female or neither, or not even anything that's like a human at all.

I don't believe in hell, because only a malevolent being would damn souls to eternal suffering, and I refuse to worship a malevolent being.

I am not a Christian, although I used to be. It was too dogmatic for me.

I think that since there's no way to prove whether or not there's a god until we die, that we should all stop bugging each other about it since it's a fruitless argument.

The whole thing with Christianity though is personal responsibility. You are responsible for your choices in life, life isn't responsible for you....

Yes but as I've stated time and time again, belief is NOT a choice (at least for me). So why should it be used as a criteria for punishment.

Yes but as I've stated time and time again, belief is NOT a choice (at least for me). So why should it be used as a criteria for punishment.
why isn't it a choice? please explain.

[QUOTE=OutpostCommand]

Why should I belive in 'God' ?
QUOTE]

I don't want you to believe in God, I'd rather see you burn in hell. Just dont trash religion, there are so many topics in this forum that trash religion and that really pisses me off because they don't even proof that the isn't a God.

I am a Protestant Methodist. I don't have a problem with atheism, and I certainly don't have a problem with religion, but I DO have a problem with certain members of a religion. There are bad apples in all places, but with me being so young and having so many friends in the Catholic religion, I have come to found that the majority of the Catholic youth is NOT what their parents/church leaders think it is. The majority of the Catholic youth is made up of what we call "Cafeteria Catholics". I think paragraph from a web page I was viewing describes it best:
They feel they can “pick and choose” among the various doctrines and laws of the Church, some of which they accept, others they feel they are not obliged to obey. More and more today there are those who call themselves Catholic, who feel they can, and must, decide for themselves which of the teachings of the Church they will accept, and which they will not. How many, for example, do not accept the clear teaching of the Church in regard to such basic things as birth control, or premarital sex, or divorce and remarriage, etc. They look upon these teachings not as laws, but, at best, as ideals that they may not be able to live up to. Many things have changed in the Church, they say, since the second Vatican Council.If I am not mistaken, there is a fine line between being a Catholic and not. You either FOLLOW the rules, or you DON'T, and those of you who do not have forsaken your souls. Yet, as I have seen too much due to my being in the middle of this mess, I notice that doctrines and laws are being violated left and right by a youth that cosider the label of "Catholic" sufficient. What kind of religion is Catholicism going to be in the future, I dare ask?

Oh wait, I forgot! Catholics can do confessionals! They get to go into a little box and spill their guts out to a priest who will then assign a number of Hail Mary's to perform. After that, everything is forgiven! Oh my, it's just so EASY, isn't it? Losing your virginity to that girl last night was okay, because you're going to the next confessional, aren't you? You're still a heaven-bound Catholic. You believe in God and go to Sunday Mass, so therefore everthing is going to be all right. Well guess what, you're a Cafeteria Catholic. Congratulations!

To come to Jesus, to accept Him in the deepest sense, it is not enough to receive Him sacramentally, for one can receive Him in Holy Communion and not accept His word in its entirety. We must accept not just most of what the Church teaches as divinely revealed, but all of it.

Pope John Paul II once said:
“It is sometimes reported that a large number of Catholics today do not adhere to the teaching of the Catholic Church on a number of questions, notably sexual and conjugal morality, divorce and remarriage. Some are reported as not accepting the clear position on abortion. It has to be noted that there is a tendency on the part of some Catholics to be selective in their adherence to the Church’s moral teaching. It is sometimes claimed that dissent from the magisterium is totally compatible with being a “good Catholic,” and poses no obstacle to the reception of the Sacraments. This is a grave error that challenges the teaching of the Bishops in the United States and elsewhere.”
For your sake, don't think that the "good Catholic but I violated this and that" label will get you far.

why isn't it a choice? please explain.

I can only believe what I must believe, only what my reason, expereince and revelation allow me to believe. Belief is something that is forged through expereience not something that is chosen. I can go to a church, worship, confess and take communion, but that will still not change my beliefs. No concious action I take can change my beliefs. I have proposed my own version of Pascals wager many times and no one has taken it, "Can you, for moment, make yourself believe that Zeus is responcible for lighting or Thor is responsible for thunder? If you can I will give you a ten-thousand dollars, and after that moment you can go back to being Chrsitian." Thus you have nothing to loose and $10,000. Can you do it? I know that I can not. It seems clear on self examiniation that belief is not a choice but something that stems out of experience and personality.

It has been proven that those places existed, but none to support the actual events that have come to mean so much in the abrahamic faiths. .

ever heard of the dead sea scrolls???

I can only believe what I must believe, only what my reason, expereince and revelation allow me to believe. Belief is something that is forged through expereience not something that is chosen. I can go to a church, worship, confess and take communion, but that will still not change my beliefs. No concious action I take can change my beliefs. I have proposed my own version of Pascals wager many times and no one has taken it, "Can you, for moment, make yourself believe that Zeus is responcible for lighting or Thor is responsible for thunder? If you can I will give you a ten-thousand dollars, and after that moment you can go back to being Chrsitian." Thus you have nothing to loose and $10,000. Can you do it? I know that I can not. It seems clear on self examiniation that belief is not a choice but something that stems out of experience and personality.
interesting. that is something to think about. thankyou for explaining ;)
20 extra points for the clear example :D

The whole thing with Christianity though is personal responsibility. You are responsible for your choices in life, life isn't responsible for you....
I'm not saying that you aren't responsible for your choices, I'm saying you're not completely responsible for your views.

unless i missed it...no one here has been talking about predestination

the belief that God shose the elect before the beginning of the world, these are the ones that have wahat could be described as that "craving" for God

also, the proof of God is all around us....how can anyone honestly believe that evolution would be lucky enough to end up wit this world??

also, the proof of God is all around us....how can anyone honestly believe that evolution would be lucky enough to end up wit this world??

it's really quite easy.. there's no special reason why I do. I just do.

Why I am an athiest:
-The Crusades :sniper:
-The 100 Years' War :mp5:
-The 30 Years' War :gundge:
-The Holocaust :mad:
-And much, much more!!!
Christians have done some pretty horrible things to people who didn't beleive in god. And pretty horrible things to people who didn't believe in the Christian God. And pretty horrible things to people who didn't believe in the Christian God the way they did. If that's what His followers are like, what is He like? If the Bible is to be taken literally, one can only reach the conclusion that God is, at best unstable. One page he is a great, kind, loving guy who gave us all life and is all-knowing and all-powerful, the next, he is still all-knowing and all-powerfull, but he is turning people into salt because they looked at each other! But that's okay, because they were evil and had it coming.

What about Abraham, though? God told Abraham to kill his own son, and the man is torn with indecision. Does his loyalty lie more with God, or the kid? The guy is on the bring of phycological breakdown before he makes the decision to sacrafice his son, is about to, and then God just flip-flops around and is all like, "Oh, no, that's okay. Don't, really. I just wanted to see if you'd actually do it!" Abraham clearly was a believer.

What kind of God is that to worship? I do not pretend to know wether or not He exists; there is no good evidence for either argument, but if He is real, then He is clearly someone to be put in a psyche ward, not to be worshiped.

Okay, to the "why are the suffering" types who are still asking this bloody question.

What would a world be like where God swooped down and prevented anything evil from occuring?

We wouldn't be human. We wouldn't be able to make choices. We'd all be total slaves, and there would be no kind of good whatsoever, because for good to exist, you need the flip side.

even darwin didnt proprerly believe totally in his theory, and maintained it was a theory till the day he died (i read)

Why I am an athiest:
-The Holocaust :mad:


your blaming that on christians?? since when were nazis christians?

I can only believe what I must believe, only what my reason, expereince and revelation allow me to believe. Belief is something that is forged through expereience not something that is chosen. I can go to a church, worship, confess and take communion, but that will still not change my beliefs. No concious action I take can change my beliefs. I have proposed my own version of Pascals wager many times and no one has taken it, "Can you, for moment, make yourself believe that Zeus is responcible for lighting or Thor is responsible for thunder? If you can I will give you a ten-thousand dollars, and after that moment you can go back to being Chrsitian." Thus you have nothing to loose and $10,000. Can you do it? I know that I can not. It seems clear on self examiniation that belief is not a choice but something that stems out of experience and personality.
thas exactly what I said... maybe not as coherently though.. I going to have to have you write my posts next time.. no you don't have a choice..

I don't want you to believe in God, I'd rather see you burn in hell. Extremely, extremely unChristian. "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they say".

your blaming that on christians?? since when were nazis christians?
from what I learned in school Hitler hated Christianity so I doubt that his followers were Christian.

Extremely, extremely unChristian. "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they say".

thats jesus speaking

so your saying that just because were christians we should be as good as Jesus..the son of God...sin that knew no sin etc...

thats blasphemy! lol

Why I am an athiest:
-The Crusades :sniper:
-The 100 Years' War :mp5:
-The 30 Years' War :gundge:
-The Holocaust :mad:
-And much, much more!!!
Christians have done some pretty horrible things to people who didn't beleive in god. And pretty horrible things to people who didn't believe in the Christian God. And pretty horrible things to people who didn't believe in the Christian God the way they did. If that's what His followers are like, what is He like? If the Bible is to be taken literally, one can only reach the conclusion that God is, at best unstable. One page he is a great, kind, loving guy who gave us all life and is all-knowing and all-powerful, the next, he is still all-knowing and all-powerfull, but he is turning people into salt because they looked at each other! But that's okay, because they were evil and had it coming.

What about Abraham, though? God told Abraham to kill his own son, and the man is torn with indecision. Does his loyalty lie more with God, or the kid? The guy is on the bring of phycological breakdown before he makes the decision to sacrafice his son, is about to, and then God just flip-flops around and is all like, "Oh, no, that's okay. Don't, really. I just wanted to see if you'd actually do it!" Abraham clearly was a believer.

What kind of God is that to worship? I do not pretend to know wether or not He exists; there is no good evidence for either argument, but if He is real, then He is clearly someone to be put in a psyche ward, not to be worshiped.
Talk about ignorant drabble, sheesh. :(

from what I learned in school Hitler hated Christianity so I doubt that his followers were Christian.

And yes the Nazis made a pact with the churches to stop the churches taking part in polotics until the churches thought it was time to make a stand...and then he abolished them and set up his own

thats jesus speaking

so your saying that just because were christians we should be as good as Jesus..the son of God...sin that knew no sin etc...

thats blasphemy! lol *notes "lol" but presses on regardless, even though it is unnecessary*
Christians are supposed to follow the example of Jesus.

And yes the Nazis made a pact with the churches to stop the churches taking part in polotics until the churches thought it was time to make a stand...and then he abolished them and set up his own

Hitler also said things like 'God is on our side' in many speeches.

there is an extreme difference in trying to be like him...and actually being like him

as i said....he was sinless he NEVER sinned

so your saying that a christian should never sin....not possible, its just human nature..what happens when you become a born again christian is that you lose the sin nature...you lose the "desire" to sin, but you still sin, but you are forgiven. you are a child of God

Listen guys, just because you athiests don't believe that there could possibly be something in the universe more powerful than yourselves and believe that science can solve everything doesn't give you a reason to just bash Christians. Most Christians are good hard-working people and to generalize and attack the way you guys have is just shameful.

How come your Gods havent come down and shown us that they exist ?
Jesus
That was one of the reasons for his coming in the first place. The choice is yours whether to believe or not.

Hitler also said things like 'God is on our side' in many speeches.

sorry are you saying he was christian?? or what

and a large chunk of the population were part of some christian denomination, so these speeches were simply aimed at them to reinforce their belief in him as their leader, and stop him thinking about what he was actually doing

there is an extreme difference in trying to be like him...and actually being like him

as i said....he was sinless he NEVER sinned

so your saying that a christian should never sin....not possible, its just human nature..what happens when you become a born again christian is that you lose the sin nature...you lose the "desire" to sin, but you still sin, but you are forgiven. you are a child of God Yes, Christians should never sin. No one should ever sin. It's an impossible ideal, but one we should strive towards. We are supposed to follow Jesus' example… and that includes not judging and forgiving.
Hitler also said things like 'God is on our side' in many speeches. Yes, many Germans were Christian, so he had to. Sheesh, the "God is on our side" card has been played by everybody, regardless of whether or not they're religious - Stalin told his troops to commit atrocities for "Holy Russia, favoured by God".

Hitler persecuted Christians, by the way.

thankyou Liskeinland

nicely put

and a question

out of interest is the general conception that christians are a majority or minority?

Thats a crap argument.
I have every right to critisise Religion and Christianity, and they have every right to critisise me.
I have the right to poke my nose in their business, they have the right to poke theyre noses in my business.and yet there are athiest/agnostics who would argue against that sentiment.

if you truly want to learn about Christianity or about any religion, you have to go in with an open heart, (not saying free from skepticisim) and on-line forums are not the way to go. go to their places of worship and ask the leaders themselves. all threads like these cause, is flaming and bad feelings.

thankyou Liskeinland

nicely put

and a question

out of interest is the general conception that christians are a majority or minority? Well, in my country (UK) they're a majority on the census… but everyone knows that they're a minority.

all threads like these cause, is flaming and bad feelings.

have to say..as a christian here, i find it great fun arguing with people like these

im in uk too...and yes 72%

its just do you count people that just wants the values etc..or those that truly are christians?

until i heard that fact, id never have believed that we were a majority...from the amount of noise they make youd guess gays were!!

I pick up your gauntlet. I fear not your accusations, your insults, your petty namecalling. However, I do wish for a civil discussion, if you will grant me one. Let your bitterness go momentarily, and let us have a reasonable talk among logicians.

The blame of historical events is unreasonable, straightout. The holocaust was presented numerous times as an example. The holocaust was carried out by strong nationalism, a manipulated peoples, and a man with a plan. No religion said, "Kill Jews"; rather Christianity said open your arms to gentile and Jew alike. A anti-Hitler Christian died the same way a anti-Hitler Jew did, by toture, bullet, gas, or electric fence. These atrocities in no way can be blamed on Christians, so please, stop misplacing the blame.

The Crusades, fronts for unifying countries by unstable monarchs. The 100 years war? Since when did that have anything to do with anything? The 30 years war? A power struggle in Europe, simply. A question of authority in Northern Europe, a move to show power by southern Europe, and a reaction starting a war. Religiously fronted, but not religious. Besides, who was fighting who here? Christians and themselves? Christians and Heathens? Christians and Bad Christians? This war was not religious, and I would say has no relevance to the topic at hand.

The idea of lack of proof is completely understandable. However, the idea of "Lack of Evidence, thus I will not continue the search" again to me seems useless. What purpose is there in giving up? Agnosticism is acceptable, you show searching, however, the idea of giving up the search is embarassingly lazy of you.

Oh, and I am fighting back. Let loose the hounds of war!

And in reference to the "The argument is pointless so stop caring" people, let me try this example. I do not understand matrix multiplication. Honestly, it is completely beyond me. Now will I continue to try and understand it even though I am 99.9(repeating)% sure I cannot figure it out? Absolutely. Why though? Because despite the high probability of me not figuring it out, is it not worth the time for that possible .000...001% chance that I would get it?

If you wish to argue Biblical Validity, Christian Theological points, or Doctrinal things, I'd be glad to on this thread. Otherwise shoot me a telegram. I hope my response was adequate, and to quote a bad movie:
"Bring it on!"
- Joseph Glint
Philosophy Student, Freshman, Tyslan High

Olara'] Jesus
That was one of the reasons for his coming in the first place. The choice is yours whether to believe or not.
And Jesus is not the only God to have come. Quetzalcoatl, those half-fish gods from the Middle East, Zeus came every other day, Vishnu came many times in different forms, etc.

So, they have clearly come to show their existance, I don't know what Outpost is talking about.

i mentioned the dead sea scrolls earlier...and they are totally seperate from the bible, written be a roman, correct me if im wrong, and these talk of a man, a jew who came, claimed to be the son of God, and did miracles...... so the bibles story of the son of God ACTUALLY coming to earth are backed up by a totally sepaerate source

and feel free to tell me that i'm wrong/stupid/pathetic, i usually am.

chrisianity does not say anywhere to kill those that dont believe

Alright I have a question for you. Whats the up side of being an athiest? Honestly! Think of it as a bet. If I'm wrong, and you are right, I win, you lose. If you are right and I'm wrong, I don't really lose because we are both still dead! Why do you have such a thing agenst us becaues we believe in something you don't? When death comes, either we are right or we are wrong. Either way, we can't really lose because if there is not after life, you'll be just as bad as us! it's not win win but it's not win lose either.

So, here's a great idea from me to you. Stop being such a jerk-off because it doesn't make anyone like you. I believe what I believe. It's who I am and I'm sick of everyone biting MY head off about it. Leave us alone for crying out load. Just because you don't get it doesn't mean you have to be such an ass.

There, rant over.

If you do not seek God, he may or may not call you (there's the story of St. Paul, as someone whom God called even though he (Paul) was actively working against the church). However, more likely than not, he'll leave you alone. If, on the other hand, you sincerely seek God, he'll find you, and offer all the "proof" of his existence that you'll need. Or so I've been told. ;)hehehe... once... when my faith was at it's lowest, I told God... hit me with proof.

several months later... he did... right in my chest, during a 'revival' and boy did it feel great! :D

One argument Christians like to make ( and this makes sense to me) that the Universe can't have come from nothing therefore Something omnipotent must have created it.

That's probably why I'm a Deist. I don't believe there's anyone looking after humanity, but I just don't get how the Universe could have come from nothing.

And this thread seems to bash theists in general. There was one mention of Jesus, obviously, but I couldn't see any points that pertained to just Christians.

i mentioned the dead sea scrolls earlier...and they are totally seperate from the bible, written be a roman, correct me if im wrong, and these talk of a man, a jew who came, claimed to be the son of God, and did miracles...... so the bibles story of the son of God ACTUALLY coming to earth are backed up by a totally sepaerate source
No, sorry. It is a version of documents apparently used by early Christians, some of which later made it into the Bible. They're not an independent account or verification.

sorry your trying to say that the bible was simply a load of other stories and old folk tales all stuck together and a religion created??

chrisianity does not say anywhere to kill those that dont believe
i didn't say it did. it's just that a lot of christians i know seem to think that people who don't believe in the same things they do are going to hell.

1) As I've said before this treats faith as a choice which it is not.
2) Doesn't tell which religion is the right one. How do you know the Hindu's are not right and you will be coming back as a lower lifeform. How do you know that Thomas Paine wasn't right and God preffers well reasoned doubt to blind acceptance.




Yes but I have also heard of Mohammed, Homer, Krishna, etc. God(s) seem to have told a lot of people different things. How can we decided which one is right?



1) Again it treats faith as a choice, which it is not
2) According to you, even though I love God with all my heart and soul, I'm still going to Hell because I'm too stupid to realize that Jesus is God? Doesn't quiet seem fair.



And leaving Christianity for my current religion made me less sad and lost and more happy and fulfilled.

i choose to believe or not to believe... as far as I know, faith is a choice. (granted, the predestination folks may say that an omnipotent/omniscient God made me like I am... that my "choosing" is a function of how I was made, which was up to God and, hence, that I was predestined by God to either believe or not)

How do we know which religion is right? Again, you choose. The Christian road to salvation is the one I espouse. Of course it is possible that there are other roads to salvation, or that Christianity is not one and some of the other religions do map out the road. But we have to choose, and I have chosen thusly.

According to the Gospel, Jesus is the only way. That's what I think is true. It might not be true (of course). We'll know the answer upon death. (that, or we'll know nothing, if we really are just empty husks of flesh, blood and bone sans souls)

saying they are going to hell and actively trying to send them there early are two very different things......sorry for any misunderstanding tho

Alright I have a question for you. Whats the up side of being an athiest? Honestly! Think of it as a bet. If I'm wrong, and you are right, I win, you lose. If you are right and I'm wrong, I don't really lose because we are both still dead! Pascal's Wager? Already debunked. But for the sake of elaborating, how do you know the atheist would lose if you were right? What if neither was right? What if this god figure doesn't care about people at all? It's not a simple 2-D answer scheme mate.

The upside of being an atheist is generally not giving time to something which may prove fruitless and consuming. And also sticking with scientific factuality, though it is not exactly an exclusive trait.

When death comes, either we are right or we are wrong. No, it could be any number of things. This is not a right-wrong option thread. We could be right and wrong, we could be neither. No one exactly knows what happens with death and oblivion is as much a blind guess as an afterlife.

I believe what I believe. It's who I am and I'm sick of everyone biting MY head off about it. Leave us alone for crying out load. Just because you don't get it doesn't mean you have to be such an ass.

I get that you are talking to someone else, but i think this understanding needs to go both ways. Atheists aren't exactly treated kindly by the religious population at large either. If both groups could stop being sticklers about their opinions and treat each other with respect for opinions, the world might just be a bit better off.

That was impressive Lotkas. I'm not trying to be rude, but if you don't like Christians being flamed on NS, why did you come on a forum entitled a Christian bash ?

i didn't say it did. it's just that a lot of christians i know seem to think that people who don't believe in the same things they do are going to hell.

ACtually, we believe if you don't believe Jesus is the Son of God who died for your sins, then you go to hell. Just to make things clear

hehehe... once... when my faith was at it's lowest, I told God... hit me with proof.

several months later... he did... right in my chest, during a 'revival' and boy did it feel great! :D
Sounds a lot like what happened to me, only I was at home in my basement at the time.

Why should I fear my 'maker' ?
He created me, I shouldnt be afraid of him, but be mates with him.
Even go to the pub with him for a pint in 'Gods Tavern'.


Why should we fear God?

Biblically speaking:

Because he holds the power of judgment over us.

(which means, basically, that it doesn't matter what we think is right... what matters is what God thinks is right... IE, "Man proposes; God disposes")

sorry your trying to say that the bible was simply a load of other stories and old folk tales all stuck together and a religion created??
No, the religion was created first and then the Bible was stitched up mainly from old Jewish texts (some of them folk tales) and other sources.

ACtually, we believe if you don't believe Jesus is the Son of God who died for your sins, then you go to hell. Just to make things clear

Why? Countless individuals don't, and that sounds decidedly catholic to me...

ACtually, we believe if you don't believe Jesus is the Son of God who died for your sins, then you go to hell. Just to make things clear
in my opinion (i am usually wrong/stupid/pathetic, remember?) that's not really fair. so everyone of a different religion just goes to hell? well then, i'm going to hell. at least i'll have thousands of other people to keep me company.
and off topic, but you guys reply really fast.

Why? Countless individuals don't, and that sounds decidedly catholic to me...

Why would you go to hell? Because we sin. All of us. Even Christains. I know, shock shock, right? But it's not like there isn't a way out of it. For the Jews, it was the blood of goats and of sheep. For us, it's the blood of Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, then your sins aren't covered and you go to hell. And hey, Catholics believe almost the same thing I do. There isn't that much differance.

in my opinion (i am usually wrong/stupid/pathetic, remember?) that's not really fair. so everyone of a different religion just goes to hell? well then, i'm going to hell. at least i'll have thousands of other people to keep me company.
and off topic, but you guys reply really fast.

Hell dioesn't work like that. Hell is darkness and pain, and suffering for ever and ever. You won't see anyone, won't be able to hang out with any one. It's darkness, it's dying day after day after day. And fair? Why does everyone think God has to be fair? He's mercifull, that's enough for me. But he'd only mercifull one way, through Jesus.

It seems to me one of the best arguments against religion is that Earth is SO damn small. We're smaller than an atom in the scheme of things and I don't think we can be alone in the Universe, either.

So the odds are against the faithful. Human beings are still woefully, WOEFULLY ignorant beasts.

Irregardless of whether it's the truth, I think if people truly take the message of the four Gospels and put it into practice, it makes for a very pious person. Those Christians rock.

And then there are those who slink behind a God of hatred and disregard for life. If you've ever read the Inferno, I can guarantee that the God a lot of people preach would end up with Atilla the Hun and his ilk, up to his neck in a river of and loving it. Those people can bite me.

have to say..as a christian here, i find it great fun arguing with people like these

im in uk too...and yes 72%

its just do you count people that just wants the values etc..or those that truly are christians?

until i heard that fact, id never have believed that we were a majority...from the amount of noise they make youd guess gays were!!if they say they are Chrisitan, then it's still not for me to say yea or nay. they live their life according to their interpretations of the bible and God's laws. after all, it's God who will let his will known and it's God who will judge. so I find it humorous when people argue about "real" Christians or "real" Islam or whatever. most of the time, it's just people focusing on one aspect of God, and thus focusing only on those actions.

yes, God has called for blood, but God also heals. He loves and he can met out punnishments. He want's all of us to believe in him but he won't force himself into an unwilling heart. he can give and he can take away.

I love him for what he's given me, and what he takes from me. I honor his sacrifices and I believe in him and strive to live a life that will be pleasing unto him.

wrong, the bible does explain why these things happen, but those reasons are wrong. The bible is totally false, but there are good lessons to be learned from it. You dont need to belive in an all knowing God to love thy neighbor, just be a good person. So even though its fiction, its definately a good read.

I wouldn't say the Bible is wrong, just mostly fiction, with some basis in fact

Why would you go to hell? Because we sin. All of us. Even Christains. I know, shock shock, right? But it's not like there isn't a way out of it. For the Jews, it was the blood of goats and of sheep. For us, it's the blood of Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, then your sins aren't covered and you go to hell. And hey, Catholics believe almost the same thing I do. There isn't that much differance.

Disregarding the fact that thye have considerably more fun in their faith than I surmise you, as a protestant do, and I fail to percieve why a benevolent deity, as your pretextual epistles extoll, proposes to afford us, and yet impose a morla code and means of retribution upon such will. To my admittedly humble mind, Pantheonic faith is the sole means by which one truly encounters a faith with any degree of justifcation or legitimacy.

OutpostCommand, warned for trolling.